Total Members Voted: 30
Voting closed: 06/01/2023 07:41 pm
Quote from: clongton on 01/29/2022 02:41 pmQuote from: DanClemmensen on 01/29/2022 02:24 pm <snip>That was 53 years ago. It's a lot different now.Camera technology today is several orders of magnitude better than what Apollo had. Orbiting cameras back then had difficulty seeing rocks on the surface the size of a Volkswagen, while orbital surveys today are capable of resolving small rocks on the surface the size of a tennis ball. It is simply not necessary to send a ground survey mission to determine whether or not the selected site can be safely landed on.Perhaps I miss-read the landing site paper linked by Su27 below (Attachment_A20_Lunar_Landing_Site_Characterization_White_Paper.pdf). It looked to me like reliable resolution was about one meter, not "tennis ball". I don't think you want to risk putting a landing foot down on a 1-meter tippy rock.Despite all its other overwhelming advantages, Starship HLS has one disadvantage: No downward-looking window for the pilot. This means reliance on cameras, and that apparently makes it a little bit harder for even a highly-trained astronaut to do a semi-manual landing. This is all about risk reduction. It's not a yes/no choice. At this point I think NASA will choose to land without an on-surface survey, and I think the landing will succeed.
Quote from: DanClemmensen on 01/29/2022 02:24 pm <snip>That was 53 years ago. It's a lot different now.Camera technology today is several orders of magnitude better than what Apollo had. Orbiting cameras back then had difficulty seeing rocks on the surface the size of a Volkswagen, while orbital surveys today are capable of resolving small rocks on the surface the size of a tennis ball. It is simply not necessary to send a ground survey mission to determine whether or not the selected site can be safely landed on.
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Quote from: DanClemmensen on 01/29/2022 03:18 pmDespite all its other overwhelming advantages, Starship HLS has one disadvantage: No downward-looking window for the pilot. This means reliance on cameras, and that apparently makes it a little bit harder for even a highly-trained astronaut to do a semi-manual landing. This is all about risk reduction. It's not a yes/no choice. At this point I think NASA will choose to land without an on-surface survey, and I think the landing will succeed. A. What says the landing is going to be piloted at all? See MSL, M2020 and every F9 first stage. Not to mention the intend of every uncrewed Starship returning to earth.
Despite all its other overwhelming advantages, Starship HLS has one disadvantage: No downward-looking window for the pilot. This means reliance on cameras, and that apparently makes it a little bit harder for even a highly-trained astronaut to do a semi-manual landing. This is all about risk reduction. It's not a yes/no choice. At this point I think NASA will choose to land without an on-surface survey, and I think the landing will succeed.
B. And even if piloted, what says cameras are not good enough?
C. There is no "risk reduction" required. Landers already use cameras for terrain and hazard avoidance
D. No basis to make a claim for on-surface survey.
1. The demo mission is uncrewed, so certainly not piloted.All Starhip Earth landings will be to surveyed sites.F9 is not relevant: there are no rocks on the drone ships or the RLTS site: they have been surveyed on the surface.2.Not me: I'm not an astronaut or an aerospace engineer. However, NASA raised the lack of downward-facing windows as an issue in the evaluation of the HLS system.3. It's a question of cost/benefit, and NASA appears to be willing to pay quite a bit for even a small benefit in risk reduction. 4. The only "basis" is that an on-surface survey can see much smaller rocks than an LRO survey, and the difference might be useful.
What are the chances that the "integrated master schedule" is available via a FOIA request? I bet it would be an interesting read.
What ever happened to that oft promised always missed "Starship Update" from Elon? inquiring minds want to know.
Quote from: philw1776 on 01/31/2022 03:21 pmWhat ever happened to that oft promised always missed "Starship Update" from Elon? inquiring minds want to know.I believe it will happen after the orbital shot, not before. Every time Elon gives a date for a presentation, it's just been his current (over-optimistic) launch date for the orbital shot.
Quote from: philw1776 on 01/31/2022 03:21 pmWhat ever happened to that oft promised always missed "Starship Update" from Elon? inquiring minds want to know.Next Thursday February 10th https://www.theverge.com/2022/2/3/22916863/elon-musk-spacex-starship-presentation-update
Cummings [SpaceX director Nicholas Cummings]: "I love that the theme of this panel is sustainable space exploration is being enable by commercial space technology" as "Starship is a commercial space platform ... designed to do many, many things" such as the HLS part of Artemis.Cummings: "The thing I'm most excited about" with NASA's Artemis "is all of the surface elements," since "Starship is fundamentally designed to transport very, very large amounts of cargo."Cummings: SpaceX is "excited to integrate things like habitats and rovers and supplies" with Starship to make a "rich ecosystem of technologies" for an "incredible Moon base.""I can say Moon base, right? We're at a space conference."Cummings: Thinking about a Moon base analogous to Everest base camp, "staffed by hundreds or thousands of scientists and explorers."
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20220003725/downloads/22%203%207%20Kent%20IEEE%20paper.pdf
Quote from: pyromatter on 03/11/2022 04:45 pmhttps://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20220003725/downloads/22%203%207%20Kent%20IEEE%20paper.pdf
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