Author Topic: NASA Releases CCtCap Source Selection Statement  (Read 20590 times)

Offline muomega0

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Re: NASA Releases CCtCap Source Selection Statement
« Reply #20 on: 01/18/2015 09:05 pm »
The only new manrated vehicle they could refer to would be the Falcon 9.
Tony Bruno became President of ULA in August, and Boeing has been saying that they could use Falcon 9 for quite a long time...... but Falcon 9 would always be a possible backup they could point to.
That of course was *not* said in the selection statement.   If Falcon, then it would not have *negated* all the benefits of an existing LV.  Both of you are way too logical.... ;)

The new vehicle Boeing speaks of is the Atlas replacement, which will not be ready before the decade is out but is something they are already working on for certification.
Do you have a citation for that?  If you don't, then please don't phrase your statement as an assertion of fact.
Did you read the source selection statement?  Logically one would have thought a new single and tricore Atlas replacement.........hmmm....interesting comment Sesquipedalian   ........  lets dig into this....   

Both alternative and new LVs were cited in Commercial Crew Contract (CCtCap)  NNK14467515R Source Selection Statement
Quote from: NASA CCtCAP Source Selection Statemet
Boeing Technical: .... The launch vehicle has demonstrated reliability and well-known failure modes and operating environments, which facilitates an integrated abort system for a crewed system and results in a safer launch vehicle. Both of these elements of the CTS design solution reduce technical and schedule risk and increase ability to meet safety requirements for human spaceflight. I also recognized that Boeing proposed to pursue an alternate launch vehicle in parallel with their baseline design work. This new launch vehicle, if used in the CTS design, provides alternatives but would negate the benefits of the established reliability of the existing launch vehicle.

In addition to the new LV, Boeing uses the old LV (Atlas?)  that is no longer allowed to support the DOD.   Interestingly enough, the words 'Falcon' or 'Atlas' do *not* appear in the source selection statement, although NASA stated here that CST-100 will fly on an Atlas.  'CST-100' was not included either....perhaps they pitched Orion?

A new LV, which likely relies on the new liquid engine program, at least explains the difference in costs.  NASA awarded contracts to ferry crew to ISS for a total of $6.8 billion with Boeing getting the larger share, $4.2 billion and SpaceX getting $2.6 billion.

So by the sole source document alone, Altas is not specified....neither is Falcon or CST-100...

Now for the fun part. :)

Perhaps one day Atlas/Delta/SLS will be consolidated and the US will have two non sole source LVs, while performing LV R&D on improvements and replacements at the same time since SLS/Orion/existingEELV are not taking Astronauts to Mars..too big and/or too expensive.     Wait a minute...breaking news...Orion on FH  --  and from the newly named 'competitive' committee:  "SLS and Orion are critical to our medium- and long-term ability to explore space".  Perhaps the new alternative LV is SLS and/or FH launching Orion which would supplement, but not replace Atlas, since afterall, even with a proposal in hand, the USG can't really dictate HW choices to private companies. ;D and having a backup that is not Falcon derived is quite logical.....now is it SLS with solid or liquid boosters?
« Last Edit: 01/18/2015 09:06 pm by muomega0 »

Online Coastal Ron

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Re: NASA Releases CCtCap Source Selection Statement
« Reply #21 on: 01/19/2015 09:35 pm »
A new LV, which likely relies on the new liquid engine program, at least explains the difference in costs.

There is no mystery here.  Boeing would only quote what was quantifiable, and that means (for now) Atlas V as their planned primary launch vehicle.  The successor to the Atlas V does not yet exist, and Boeing cannot quote pricing for something that does not yet exist.  Boeing does not take risks like that, which is why it's a very profitable company.

As to the pricing, the additional cost is likely because of two very well known factors:

1.  Atlas V costs far more than Falcon 9.

2.  Boeing has more work to do than SpaceX to finish the CST-100, AND they would charge more for the same amount of work compared to SpaceX.

Nothing is inherently wrong or evil about having higher prices, and Boeing gambled that they could win one of the two Commercial Crew contract awards by using the pricing they did.  And they did.

Quote
Perhaps one day Atlas/Delta/SLS will be consolidated and the US will have two non sole source LVs...

The SLS would never be used for lifting a Commercial Crew vehicle to LEO, which is the topic of this thread.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline yg1968

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Re: NASA Releases CCtCap Source Selection Statement
« Reply #22 on: 01/20/2015 07:07 pm »
Here is the full GAO decision (21 pages) on the SNC protest:
http://www.gao.gov/assets/670/667979.pdf

This document provides information that is not available in the selection statement. For example, Boeing received 913 points for Mission suitability, SpaceX received 849 points and SNC received 829 points. All three companies had a 2017 date for certification. See pages 4 and 5.
« Last Edit: 01/20/2015 07:43 pm by yg1968 »

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: NASA Releases CCtCap Source Selection Statement
« Reply #23 on: 01/20/2015 07:11 pm »
Anyone get the names of who was on the selection committee?
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator

Offline Jim

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Re: NASA Releases CCtCap Source Selection Statement
« Reply #24 on: 01/21/2015 12:19 am »

Perhaps one day Atlas/Delta/SLS will be consolidated

That will never happen.

Offline Jim

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Re: NASA Releases CCtCap Source Selection Statement
« Reply #25 on: 01/21/2015 12:21 am »

In addition to the new LV, Boeing uses the old LV (Atlas?)  that is no longer allowed to support the DOD


Quite wrong, see today's launch

Offline Jim

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Re: NASA Releases CCtCap Source Selection Statement
« Reply #26 on: 01/21/2015 12:26 am »

1. A new LV, which likely relies on the new liquid engine program, at least explains the difference in costs.

2.  So by the sole source document alone, Altas is not specified....neither is Falcon or CST-100...


1.  It has nothing to do with the new engine program.  Boeing is not stupid enough to pay for it nor pass the cost to NASA

2.  Because it is up to Boeing and Spacex to specify the boosters.  NASA is just buying a service.

Offline yg1968

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Re: NASA Releases CCtCap Source Selection Statement
« Reply #27 on: 01/21/2015 05:10 pm »
Here is a good summary of the statement and of the GAO decision on the SNC protest:
http://spacenews.com/documents-show-how-boeing-and-spacex-won-commercial-crew-amid-schedule-concerns/

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