Are you implying anyone who works in SETI is crazy, because if you are that’s pretty indefensible?
One of the reasons SETI is hard is that we don’t know exactly what we are looking for, and part of that difficulty is that we still aren’t sure of who we are. It seems counter-intuitive, but in order to be good at looking for aliens, we have to become experts at understanding ourselves.
Here’s a new related SETI article from Jason Wright.Quote One of the reasons SETI is hard is that we don’t know exactly what we are looking for, and part of that difficulty is that we still aren’t sure of who we are. It seems counter-intuitive, but in order to be good at looking for aliens, we have to become experts at understanding ourselves.http://sites.psu.edu/astrowright/2017/08/17/doing-seti-better/
I think that American history focus has taken over too much of the public thinking about these things.
I skimmed it but missed a compelling argument for why he thinks we will find something. Is it because by 2035 we will have thoroughly explored the LaGrange points and the Moon? I'm dubious of that timeline.
Might ET be buried under too much ice to phone Earth? That’s what planetary scientist Alan Stern of the Southwest Research Institute in Boulder, Colorado, has concluded may be delaying our contact with alien civilizations. Most extraterrestrial creatures are likely deep inside their home planets, in subsurface oceans crusted over in frozen water ice, according to a new proposal at this year's American Astronomy Society Division for Planetary Sciences meeting in Provo, Utah. The hypothesis could explain the lack of signals from other technologically advanced civilizations, a conundrum known as the Fermi paradox.
It would be difficult for technological civilisations to evolve without fire.
Relevant to this thread. Why haven’t we had alien contact? Blame icy ocean worldsQuote Might ET be buried under too much ice to phone Earth? That’s what planetary scientist Alan Stern of the Southwest Research Institute in Boulder, Colorado, has concluded may be delaying our contact with alien civilizations. Most extraterrestrial creatures are likely deep inside their home planets, in subsurface oceans crusted over in frozen water ice, according to a new proposal at this year's American Astronomy Society Division for Planetary Sciences meeting in Provo, Utah. The hypothesis could explain the lack of signals from other technologically advanced civilizations, a conundrum known as the Fermi paradox.http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/10/why-haven-t-we-had-alien-contact-blame-icy-ocean-worlds
"Europeans went to America to grow potatoes and tobacco. "Yikes, nobody picked up on this? What about stealing gold? Escaping persecution? Establishing penal colonies? Converting heathens? There are lots of reasons people went to America and every one of them might find a parallel in alien visits to Earth, though none of them would look very good from our point of view. And that leads to another suggestion about why we don't detect broadcasts - the aliens are afraid of what might happen if they announce their presence, so they are lurking and listening.
Quote from: Dao Angkan on 10/19/2017 10:35 pmIt would be difficult for technological civilisations to evolve without fire.Perhaps, but it could depend on the planet. We have insects that build their homes instinctively and there are chemical fires (phosphorous I think) that can burn underwater without oxygen. A planet rich in quartz or other minerals that refract and focus light could spur development of optics and perhaps primitive lasers. The ways technology begins could be a varied as the way live evolves.Quote from: Star One on 10/19/2017 08:13 pmRelevant to this thread. Why haven’t we had alien contact? Blame icy ocean worldsQuote Might ET be buried under too much ice to phone Earth? That’s what planetary scientist Alan Stern of the Southwest Research Institute in Boulder, Colorado, has concluded may be delaying our contact with alien civilizations. Most extraterrestrial creatures are likely deep inside their home planets, in subsurface oceans crusted over in frozen water ice, according to a new proposal at this year's American Astronomy Society Division for Planetary Sciences meeting in Provo, Utah. The hypothesis could explain the lack of signals from other technologically advanced civilizations, a conundrum known as the Fermi paradox.http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/10/why-haven-t-we-had-alien-contact-blame-icy-ocean-worldsAnother example of how civilization might develop differently from us.
I think you could still develop tool using intelligence without fire. Consider the octopus. You could also discover politics, probably a huge driver of intelligence. There would still be reasons to develop, agriculture, fortresses and weapons from materials such as bone.Once you have a civilisation like that you have the scale for scientists. I think they would discover gasses, perhaps from volcanic vents or decaying organic matter. These could provide buoyancy to lift stones great distances. I think once you have competing nations and scientists everything gets figured out eventually.After that, I think life under ice is a lot closer to becoming a space fairing species than us, if on a low gravity world like europa or Ceres. They could master space industrialisation without even leaving their planet or moon. Vehicles on the surface would allow fast travel. There would also likely be unique resources more available there.For me, the more significant question is how much energy such an environment could provide, while not being so energetic as to lose all this ice and water to space. I heard somewhere is that Europa is not expected to have the energy to sustain more than very simple life.
Quote from: redliox on 10/19/2017 10:57 pmQuote from: Dao Angkan on 10/19/2017 10:35 pmIt would be difficult for technological civilisations to evolve without fire.Perhaps, but it could depend on the planet. We have insects that build their homes instinctively and there are chemical fires (phosphorous I think) that can burn underwater without oxygen. A planet rich in quartz or other minerals that refract and focus light could spur development of optics and perhaps primitive lasers. The ways technology begins could be a varied as the way live evolves.Quote from: Star One on 10/19/2017 08:13 pmRelevant to this thread. Why haven’t we had alien contact? Blame icy ocean worldsQuote Might ET be buried under too much ice to phone Earth? That’s what planetary scientist Alan Stern of the Southwest Research Institute in Boulder, Colorado, has concluded may be delaying our contact with alien civilizations. Most extraterrestrial creatures are likely deep inside their home planets, in subsurface oceans crusted over in frozen water ice, according to a new proposal at this year's American Astronomy Society Division for Planetary Sciences meeting in Provo, Utah. The hypothesis could explain the lack of signals from other technologically advanced civilizations, a conundrum known as the Fermi paradox.http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/10/why-haven-t-we-had-alien-contact-blame-icy-ocean-worldsAnother example of how civilization might develop differently from us.As a side point I was slightly surprised this came from Alan Stern as I didn’t have him down as someone interested in this area of enquiry.