Author Topic: Dragon 2 outside features questions.  (Read 18022 times)

Offline Eyetam

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Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« on: 03/04/2019 03:21 pm »
I have more questions about outside features on the capsule  ;)


So what are these features on the attached picture?

Green arrow:  What is it?

2 red arrows: Lidars?

2 blue arrows: What is it?


Thx!

Offline Jarnis

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #1 on: 03/04/2019 04:09 pm »
Green arrow: Educated guess: Star trackers?

Red arrows: Probably LIDARs

No clue on the blue arrows.

Offline GregTheGrumpy

Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #2 on: 03/04/2019 05:15 pm »
The Red arrows could also be the red & green approach lights.

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #3 on: 03/04/2019 07:37 pm »
The Red arrows could also be the red & green approach lights.

Maybe a combination array of approach light and Lidar at the Red Arrow locations.

Think the Blue Arrow locations are RCS exhaust ports.
« Last Edit: 03/04/2019 07:40 pm by Zed_Noir »

Offline Lars-J

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #4 on: 03/04/2019 07:50 pm »
The Red arrows could also be the red & green approach lights.

No, the red/green lights are outside the nose cone area. Looks like the one of the lights is the raised spot between the two blue arrows in the original picture.

EDIT: Added a better picture by cosmonaut Kononenko - although it is upside down compared to the other photo.
« Last Edit: 03/04/2019 07:59 pm by Lars-J »

Offline groknull

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #5 on: 03/04/2019 07:50 pm »
The Red arrows could also be the red & green approach lights.

Maybe a combination array of approach light and Lidar at the Red Arrow locations.

Think the Blue Arrow locations are RCS exhaust ports.

Red arrows indicate the umbilical connection points.

International Docking System Standard - Interface Definition Document (Revision E):
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20170001546.pdf
Section 3.4 Resource Transfer Umbilicals (page 57)

Same document available here:
http://internationaldockingstandard.com/download/IDSS_IDD_Revision_E_TAGGED.pdf
« Last Edit: 03/04/2019 08:18 pm by groknull »

Offline Wolfram66

Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #6 on: 03/04/2019 08:08 pm »
I have more questions about outside features on the capsule  ;)


So what are these features on the attached picture?

Green arrow:  What is it?

2 red arrows: Lidars?

2 blue arrows: What is it?


Thx!


Blue RCS Ports

Offline Lars-J

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #7 on: 03/04/2019 08:17 pm »
No, those are the windows.  :) And the red arrows do not point to Draco RCS thusters. Usually RCS thrusters are mirrored on the other side, but these are not. I suspect they are something else.

I added an image to point on the drogues (and drogue mortar) covers.
« Last Edit: 03/04/2019 08:29 pm by Lars-J »

Offline Wolfram66

Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #8 on: 03/05/2019 01:43 am »
No, those are the windows.  :) And the red arrows do not point to Draco RCS thusters. Usually RCS thrusters are mirrored on the other side, but these are not. I suspect they are something else.

I added an image to point on the drogues (and drogue mortar) covers.

Thanks for the info Lars-J. I was just going off of this graphic
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=46136.0;attach=1547624;sess=0

Offline Eyetam

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #9 on: 03/05/2019 02:14 am »
So as indicated by groknull, the red arrows seems to correspond to the docking umbilicals to transfer power and data with the station.

The green arrow area is most likely where the visual sensors are located (LIDAR and thermal imagers).  The location is consistent with a viewpoint from the capsule seen during the approach (first attachment).

The "blue arrows" are the only features which we don't have strong clues yet in this thread.  Star trackers?  Umbilicals for the RCS system?


Offline RoboGoofers

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #10 on: 03/05/2019 07:41 pm »
actually i think the cameras are in the divot between the NDS and the green arrow feature.

What are the yellow/gold pads inside the nose cone?

Offline Lars-J

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #11 on: 03/05/2019 08:57 pm »
actually i think the cameras are in the divot between the NDS and the green arrow feature.

What are the yellow/gold pads inside the nose cone?

Probably just support/dampening clamps or spacers around the docking adapter during ascent/reentry, to keep the nose cone and docking adapter locked in place.
« Last Edit: 03/05/2019 08:58 pm by Lars-J »

Offline pospa

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #12 on: 03/07/2019 11:36 am »
Latest hi-res NASA photo rotated, cropped, arrowed and my humble guess what is what as follows:

- yellow: 2x electric & data umbilical connectors
- orange: 4x forward facing Draco thrusters
- red: 2x lidar sensors
- purple: 1x(2x) star tracker sensor(s)
- green: 1x forward facing context camera
- blue: 3x air ventilation ports (used post splashdown)

Any comments? Do you agree with any of my guesses?
« Last Edit: 03/07/2019 03:09 pm by pospa »

Offline woods170

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #13 on: 03/07/2019 11:58 am »
Latest hi-res NASA photo rotated, cropped, arrowed and my humble guess what is what is following:

- yellow: 2x electric & data umbilical connectors
- orange: 4x forward facing Draco thrusters
- red: 2x lidar sensors
- purple: 1x(2x) star tracker sensor(s)
- green: 1x forward facing context camera
- blue: 3x air ventilation ports (used post splashdown)

Any comments?

Why would you have Draco thrusters right next to the docking ring?

Use of Dracos in such close proximity of the docking ring will thermally affect the docking ring in a negative way. And mind you, that docking ring is what is used to latch the nose cone in place once it is closed.

Offline pospa

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #14 on: 03/07/2019 12:10 pm »
Latest hi-res NASA photo rotated, cropped, arrowed and my humble guess what is what is following:

- yellow: 2x electric & data umbilical connectors
- orange: 4x forward facing Draco thrusters
- red: 2x lidar sensors
- purple: 1x(2x) star tracker sensor(s)
- green: 1x forward facing context camera
- blue: 3x air ventilation ports (used post splashdown)

Any comments?

Why would you have Draco thrusters right next to the docking ring?

Use of Dracos in such close proximity of the docking ring will thermally affect the docking ring in a negative way. And mind you, that docking ring is what is used to latch the nose cone in place once it is closed.

I'm not saying facts, its only my guess. In case you know more - a real purpose/function of those 4 black openings, just tell us. In case they are not forward facing Dracos then where they are on CD?

Also, what should be those 4 flat golden plated "covers" inside the nose cone, that seems to fit to 4 black openings arround docking ring?
« Last Edit: 03/07/2019 12:29 pm by pospa »

Offline cuddihy

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #15 on: 03/07/2019 12:13 pm »

Why would you have Draco thrusters right next to the docking ring?

Use of Dracos in such close proximity of the docking ring will thermally affect the docking ring in a negative way. And mind you, that docking ring is what is used to latch the nose cone in place once it is closed.
Where else can you put thrusters that 1. rapidly impart "retreat" velocity, while 2. not impinging on the Station arrays &  radiators?

The 4 thrusters around the collar should only impinge on the stiff central parts of station, primarily in fact on Node 3 where the IDA is.
« Last Edit: 03/07/2019 12:14 pm by cuddihy »

Offline Jarnis

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #16 on: 03/07/2019 12:39 pm »
As far as I know, the four forward-facing Dracos are definitely a thing and actually the "main propulsion" of the capsule. Even the graphics in the DM-1 broadcast showed the capsule firing dracos on the nose to do ISS phasing.

They are used for orbit raising and I would also imagine they are used for the deorbit burn. No cosine losses and capsule "going in reverse" is not an issue whatsoever.

They might not use them near ISS at all. "RCS" Dracos on the sides can give the nudge to get the capsule to drift away when undocking and the main ones in the nose are used only when well clear.
« Last Edit: 03/07/2019 12:40 pm by Jarnis »

Offline Johnnyhinbos

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #17 on: 03/07/2019 12:52 pm »
Latest hi-res NASA photo rotated, cropped, arrowed and my humble guess what is what is following:

- yellow: 2x electric & data umbilical connectors
- orange: 4x forward facing Draco thrusters
- red: 2x lidar sensors
- purple: 1x(2x) star tracker sensor(s)
- green: 1x forward facing context camera
- blue: 3x air ventilation ports (used post splashdown)

Any comments?

Why would you have Draco thrusters right next to the docking ring?

Use of Dracos in such close proximity of the docking ring will thermally affect the docking ring in a negative way. And mind you, that docking ring is what is used to latch the nose cone in place once it is closed.
I'm fairly certain Hans stated those are Dracos. Also if you look at other images of these four notional thrusters it looks like exhaust marks around them (though I have no idea what kind of residue the hypergolics leave - it could also be heating artifacts). Regardless, I do think these are thrusters.
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Offline woods170

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #18 on: 03/07/2019 01:24 pm »
Latest hi-res NASA photo rotated, cropped, arrowed and my humble guess what is what is following:

- yellow: 2x electric & data umbilical connectors
- orange: 4x forward facing Draco thrusters
- red: 2x lidar sensors
- purple: 1x(2x) star tracker sensor(s)
- green: 1x forward facing context camera
- blue: 3x air ventilation ports (used post splashdown)

Any comments?

Why would you have Draco thrusters right next to the docking ring?

Use of Dracos in such close proximity of the docking ring will thermally affect the docking ring in a negative way. And mind you, that docking ring is what is used to latch the nose cone in place once it is closed.
I'm fairly certain Hans stated those are Dracos. Also if you look at other images of these four notional thrusters it looks like exhaust marks around them (though I have no idea what kind of residue the hypergolics leave - it could also be heating artifacts). Regardless, I do think these are thrusters.

If they are thrusters it would explain why two of the three thrusters in each quad are tilted in such a way that they fire thru two axis, in stead of one: it would be back up for nose mounted thrusters not being available when the nose cap is closed.
« Last Edit: 03/07/2019 01:24 pm by woods170 »

Offline darkenfast

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #19 on: 03/07/2019 01:28 pm »
 Just something I noticed.  The four black openings are centered around the docking hatch and its gear, which in turn is offset from the actual centerline of the spacecraft.

Edit: I was wrong (again!). I was optically-delusioned by the "slant" of the nose cover line.
« Last Edit: 03/10/2019 05:53 pm by darkenfast »
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Offline meekGee

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #20 on: 03/07/2019 02:53 pm »
Just something I noticed.  The four black openings are centered around the docking hatch and its gear, which in turn is offset from the actual centerline of the spacecraft.
I also wouldn't think there are dracos there.

Where are the mating parts for those pull screws that rigidify the soft capture?  Do they go into the vehicle or just into the docking ring?
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Offline pospa

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #21 on: 03/07/2019 03:05 pm »
Guys, I think this picture implies Dracos even more.
Can't imagine any other purpose of those deep black conuses, but thrusters.
What else those could be for?


Offline ZChris13

Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #22 on: 03/07/2019 04:07 pm »
Note that the Dracos will be centered around the center of mass of the Dragon, not the geometric center (there's a bunch of different words for that, and I don't remember them, and they all mean something slightly different) and capsules have a center of mass slightly offset to allow them to direct their reentry by merely rolling the capsule

Offline abaddon

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #23 on: 03/07/2019 04:35 pm »
Another bit of anecdotal evidence that suggests they are thrusters; Elon at the post-launch press conference noted that the nose cone had opened and the four forward thrusters had been verified operational.  He never said that the four forward thrusters were under the nose cone that I recall, but the association is suggestive to me.

"We opened the nose cone.  The... uh... forward Draco thrusters fired." See the 5:40 mark:

.
« Last Edit: 03/07/2019 04:37 pm by abaddon »

Offline Apollo-phill

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #24 on: 03/07/2019 04:43 pm »
Look more like receptacles for the four yellow items ( latches ? ) on the nose cone ( seen the rendezvous images above) to secure the cone during ascent/descent ?

A-P

Offline Lars-J

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #25 on: 03/07/2019 05:13 pm »
Just something I noticed.  The four black openings are centered around the docking hatch and its gear, which in turn is offset from the actual centerline of the spacecraft.
I also wouldn't think there are dracos there.

They are Dracos - its not really up for debate at this point. Look at the Dragon UI during approach, the bottom right, in this video. Those are all Draco indicators which show when a thruster is being fired. Note the 4 central indicators.

https://twitter.com/Space_Station/status/1102143493164527616

Now obviously they are Dracos that they avoid firing in near proximity to the station, and they may in fact be more of a backup set for emergency deorbit. But they are Dracos.
« Last Edit: 03/07/2019 07:36 pm by Lars-J »

Offline eriblo

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #26 on: 03/07/2019 05:59 pm »
Just something I noticed.  The four black openings are centered around the docking hatch and its gear, which in turn is offset from the actual centerline of the spacecraft.
I think the Draco and docking ring are very close to centered on the centerline. Note that the nose cone/red seal is asymmetric.

Offline pospa

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #27 on: 03/07/2019 07:25 pm »
How many total Draco Thrusters on this Dragon?
4 on top, 4 x 3 on the sidewall, 16 Dracos in total.
« Last Edit: 03/07/2019 07:30 pm by pospa »

Offline billh

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #28 on: 03/10/2019 05:45 pm »
Latest hi-res NASA photo rotated, cropped, arrowed and my humble guess what is what as follows:

- yellow: 2x electric & data umbilical connectors
- orange: 4x forward facing Draco thrusters
- red: 2x lidar sensors
- purple: 1x(2x) star tracker sensor(s)
- green: 1x forward facing context camera
- blue: 3x air ventilation ports (used post splashdown)

Any comments? Do you agree with any of my guesses?
I like the idea that the blue arrows point to air ventilation ports, but I wonder if they are there to equalize pressure under the nose cone during ascent and descent. Otherwise, how is this accomplished?

Offline Herb Schaltegger

Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #29 on: 03/10/2019 10:11 pm »
Now obviously they are Dracos that they avoid firing in near proximity to the station, and they may in fact be more of a backup set for emergency deorbit. But they are Dracos.

Actually, I think they may be the primary means for de-orbit burns. I watched the livestream of entry coverage Friday morning, and then a NASA highlights video Friday evening. Pretty sure a commentator on the stream said something to the effect that Dragon was using its forward-facing Dracos for deorbit. This would also explain why the nosecone doesn't close until after the deorbit burn.

EDIT: Found it. I've cued it up to the correct spot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aAe0GWIWGI?t=1186

EDIT #2: At 34:17 or so into the video, near the end of the deorbit burn, there is a view of what appears to be through the centerline docking camera showing four symmetrical Draco thrusting. This is the same camera that later shows the nosecone closing.
« Last Edit: 03/10/2019 10:29 pm by Herb Schaltegger »
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Offline Lars-J

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #30 on: 03/10/2019 11:49 pm »
Yes, after seeing that during the coverage it is pretty clear that the 4 forward thrusters are indeed the primary deorbit thrusters. (My post was made pre-deorbit)

Offline ZChris13

Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #31 on: 03/11/2019 06:29 am »
Yes, after seeing that during the coverage it is pretty clear that the 4 forward thrusters are indeed the primary deorbit thrusters. (My post was made pre-deorbit)
It is my understanding that they are the primary orbital maneuvering thrusters as well. If Dragon needs to change an orbit, it uses the nose thrusters.

Offline Herb Schaltegger

Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #32 on: 03/11/2019 11:28 am »
Yes, after seeing that during the coverage it is pretty clear that the 4 forward thrusters are indeed the primary deorbit thrusters. (My post was made pre-deorbit)
It is my understanding that they are the primary orbital maneuvering thrusters as well. If Dragon needs to change an orbit, it uses the nose thrusters.
At first blush I was frankly surprised by this when I realized it was well. One of the complaints always raised in discussions about the alt-history lunar Gemini proposals was the eyeballs-out burn orientation. However, given that it took a reported ~15:20 for the Dragon deorbit burn, the acceleration is obviously quite low and this is not a significant concern.
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Offline Hog

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #33 on: 03/11/2019 02:53 pm »
Elon Musk
"I'd like to also express a great appreciation for NASA, Space-Ex would not be here without NASA without the incredible work that was done before Space-Ex even started and without the support after Space-Ex did start, so thank you."

This comment really impresses me and I think a lot of the SpaceEx fanpersons would do well in remembering just how true this message from Mr Musk really is.  It is always respectful to at least acknowledge previous efforts and how they help with current and future successes.

Mr Musk just gained some "rep points" in my book.
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Offline whitelancer64

Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #34 on: 03/11/2019 03:13 pm »
Elon Musk
"I'd like to also express a great appreciation for NASA, Space-Ex would not be here without NASA without the incredible work that was done before Space-Ex even started and without the support after Space-Ex did start, so thank you."

This comment really impresses me and I think a lot of the SpaceEx fanpersons would do well in remembering just how true this message from Mr Musk really is.  It is always respectful to at least acknowledge previous efforts and how they help with current and future successes.

Mr Musk just gained some "rep points" in my book.

Elon Musk / SpaceX have always given NASA credit where it is due. Elon Musk in particular, he knows how close SpaceX came to disaster. NASA's CRS contract brought them from the brink of failure into enormous success.
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Offline OxCartMark

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #35 on: 03/12/2019 10:16 pm »
And now for the other end...

I don't profess to have watched much of this due to hopper fascination so this may be a bit clueless.  When I saw D2 from underneath as it was setting on the pad it appeared to me that the Super Dracos were covered up, either with a panel that covered that entire rectangular area or with individual 'corks'.  What is the story there if there is one?
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Offline ZChris13

Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #36 on: 03/13/2019 06:10 am »
And now for the other end...

I don't profess to have watched much of this due to hopper fascination so this may be a bit clueless.  When I saw D2 from underneath as it was setting on the pad it appeared to me that the Super Dracos were covered up, either with a panel that covered that entire rectangular area or with individual 'corks'.  What is the story there if there is one?
thrusters are all capped for launch
the ones that aren't used (super dracos) are capped for landing too

Offline woods170

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #37 on: 03/13/2019 08:11 am »
And now for the other end...

I don't profess to have watched much of this due to hopper fascination so this may be a bit clueless.  When I saw D2 from underneath as it was setting on the pad it appeared to me that the Super Dracos were covered up, either with a panel that covered that entire rectangular area or with individual 'corks'.  What is the story there if there is one?
thrusters are all capped for launch
the ones that aren't used (super dracos) are capped for landing too

Yeah, but the capping is not necessarily for launch. I'll explain why.

The Dracos (RCS thrusters) in the sidewall (backshell) are covered with a rip-off type of covering. This is not to protect them during launch, but to prevent FOD damage prior to launch. The rip-off covering of the sidewall Dracos is usually torn away by the airstream at some time during the ascent thru the dense lower atmosphere. This is very similar to how the space shuttle RCS thrusters were protected against FOD damage.

The SuperDracos (abort thrusters) are covered with blow-out plugs that are designed to stay in place during the entire launch phase, in-space operations, reentry and landing.
They are only blown-out when the SuperDracos are actually used.
The blow-out plugs for the SuperDracos serve multiple purposes: prevention of FOD damage as well as protecting the SuperDracos against seawater intrusion upon splash-down and subsequent recovery operations.

Protecting the SuperDracos against seawater intrusion is important given that they are expensive pieces of hardware and therefore will be reused on the next examples of the Crew Dragon spacecraft. Preventing their unnecessary exposure to reentry heating and seawater is going help significantly is their reuse.

Regular Dracos are much less expensive and are only reused when they haven't suffered too much damage from in-space use, reentry heating and exposure to sea-water. To give an idea: on re-flown cargo Dragons a significant number of the RCS Dracos has been replaced with new ones.
As such the term "reused" for re-flown cargo Dragons is a tad misleading. "Rebuilt" is more in line with reality.
« Last Edit: 03/13/2019 08:13 am by woods170 »

Offline Jcc

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #38 on: 03/13/2019 10:04 am »
"Regular Dracos are much less expensive and are only reused when they haven't suffered too much damage from in-space use, reentry heating and exposure to sea-water. To give an idea: on re-flown cargo Dragons a significant number of the RCS Dracos has been replaced with new ones.
As such the term "

This makes sense, but do you have any reference? In some of the pre-launch briefings, Hans has said, they reuse "almost everything" without being more specific.
« Last Edit: 03/13/2019 10:04 am by Jcc »

Offline Silmfeanor

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #39 on: 03/13/2019 10:18 am »
"Regular Dracos are much less expensive and are only reused when they haven't suffered too much damage from in-space use, reentry heating and exposure to sea-water. To give an idea: on re-flown cargo Dragons a significant number of the RCS Dracos has been replaced with new ones.
As such the term "

This makes sense, but do you have any reference? In some of the pre-launch briefings, Hans has said, they reuse "almost everything" without being more specific.

Woods170 has sources in SpaceX.

Offline Celestar

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #40 on: 03/13/2019 10:45 am »
As such the term "reused" for re-flown cargo Dragons is a tad misleading. "Rebuilt" is more in line with reality.

Didn't EM mention at some point in the past that, quite contrary to the F9 boosters, "rebuilding" the cargo Dragons doesn't actually save a whole lot (if any) cash compared to building a new one for each flight? Maybe it's more like an exercise to understand what actually gets fried during an orbital reentry and what can be reused after that.

Celestar

Offline woods170

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #41 on: 03/13/2019 10:50 am »
"Regular Dracos are much less expensive and are only reused when they haven't suffered too much damage from in-space use, reentry heating and exposure to sea-water. To give an idea: on re-flown cargo Dragons a significant number of the RCS Dracos has been replaced with new ones.
As such the term "

This makes sense, but do you have any reference? In some of the pre-launch briefings, Hans has said, they reuse "almost everything" without being more specific.

Woods170 has sources in SpaceX.

That.

Also, Hans' "almost everything" has the word "almost" in it. Notable things that are either completely refurbished, or outright replaced, on each re-flown cargo Dragon, are:
- Draco RCS thrusters
- Main heatshield
- Backshell SPAM
- CBM
- Parachutes (drogues and mains)

You will note that those are exactly the things that either get exposed to reentry (heating) effects or get directly exposed to sea water.

But those items constitute a small minority of the sheer number of components of a cargo Dragon. Just about everything that is inside the waterproofed shell of a cargo Dragon is indeed reused with little to no refurbishment or replacement. Things such as:
- Pressure vessel (aka the weldment)
- Backshell panels
- Service section structural components
- Most tankage, plumbing and valves for RCS, propulsion, ECS and consumables
- Avionics
- Wiring harnasses
- Just about everything else inside the pressure vessel that is part of cargo Dragon (other than cargo)
- CBM hatch
- Side hatch
- Optical sensors and cameras
- Nav lights
- Etc, etc, etc.

On a different note, but well within the scope of this thread: my sources at SpaceX never did tell me about the nose-mounted thrusters on Crew Dragon. But that is because I never asked them about the precise layout of Crew Dragons RCS system. So, it was quite a surprise for me when those four unidentified "black holes" around the docking ring turned out to be Draco thrusters. Which goes to show that even having inside sources doesn't mean one knows everything.
« Last Edit: 03/13/2019 11:00 am by woods170 »

Offline woods170

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #42 on: 03/13/2019 11:38 am »
As such the term "reused" for re-flown cargo Dragons is a tad misleading. "Rebuilt" is more in line with reality.

Didn't EM mention at some point in the past that, quite contrary to the F9 boosters, "rebuilding" the cargo Dragons doesn't actually save a whole lot (if any) cash compared to building a new one for each flight? Maybe it's more like an exercise to understand what actually gets fried during an orbital reentry and what can be reused after that.

Celestar

What they learned from reusing/rebuilding cargo Dragon was partially applied to Crew Dragon and will be applied to Starship. Some of what they learned was also used during the (currently on hold) efforts to reuse the upper stage of F9.
« Last Edit: 03/13/2019 11:38 am by woods170 »

Offline Semmel

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #43 on: 03/13/2019 12:03 pm »
The SuperDracos (abort thrusters) are covered with blow-out plugs that are designed to stay in place during the entire launch phase, in-space operations, reentry and landing.
They are only blown-out when the SuperDracos are actually used.
The blow-out plugs for the SuperDracos serve multiple purposes: prevention of FOD damage as well as protecting the SuperDracos against seawater intrusion upon splash-down and subsequent recovery operations.

Not to second guess SpaceX, but out of curiosity, how do they actually do that?
- Are they air tight seals, then they are under pressure in space?
- Or are they evacuated and tight seals, which means.. do they pull a vacuum on the ground prior to launch?
- Or are they actually not air tight and there is a hole that equalizes the inside and outside pressure, but then how does this prevent salt water to get inside?

Offline OnWithTheShow

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #44 on: 03/13/2019 12:12 pm »

Also, Hans' "almost everything" has the word "almost" in it. Notable things that are either completely refurbished, or outright replaced, on each re-flown cargo Dragon, are:
- Draco RCS thrusters
- Main heatshield
- Backshell SPAM
- CBM
- Parachutes (drogues and mains)

You will note that those are exactly the things that either get exposed to reentry (heating) effects or get directly exposed to sea water.

But those items constitute a small minority of the sheer number of components of a cargo Dragon. Just about everything that is inside the waterproofed shell of a cargo Dragon is indeed reused with little to no refurbishment or replacement. Things such as:
- Pressure vessel (aka the weldment)
- Backshell panels
- Service section structural components
- Most tankage, plumbing and valves for RCS, propulsion, ECS and consumables
- Avionics
- Wiring harnasses
- Just about everything else inside the pressure vessel that is part of cargo Dragon (other than cargo)
- CBM hatch
- Side hatch
- Optical sensors and cameras
- Nav lights
- Etc, etc, etc.


You listed the CBM in both sections as need replacement or full overhaul and as being reused with little to no refurbishment. I vaguely remember early conversations about CBM reuse as it is obviously a mission critical and from what I remember very expensive component.

Im guessing that part of the reason for Crew Dragon bringing back the nosecone is to protect the IDA from reentry.

Offline WormPicker959

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #45 on: 03/13/2019 05:56 pm »
As such the term "reused" for re-flown cargo Dragons is a tad misleading. "Rebuilt" is more in line with reality.

Didn't EM mention at some point in the past that, quite contrary to the F9 boosters, "rebuilding" the cargo Dragons doesn't actually save a whole lot (if any) cash compared to building a new one for each flight? Maybe it's more like an exercise to understand what actually gets fried during an orbital reentry and what can be reused after that.

Celestar

What they learned from reusing/rebuilding cargo Dragon was partially applied to Crew Dragon and will be applied to Starship. Some of what they learned was also used during the (currently on hold) efforts to reuse the upper stage of F9.

How seriously was this effort conducted? I suppose reusing the upper stage is a bit pointless if the entire vehicle will be replaced by SH/SS, but I'm curious about these efforts. Was it put on hold only because the work would be superfluous, or also because it was deemed technically impractical? My understanding of some of the debate (here and elsewhere) was that it would cut dearly into the payload margin, and would therefore not be economical.

Offline Joffan

Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #46 on: 03/13/2019 07:06 pm »
Some of what they learned was also used during the (currently on hold) efforts to reuse the upper stage of F9.
How seriously was this effort conducted? I suppose reusing the upper stage is a bit pointless if the entire vehicle will be replaced by SH/SS, but I'm curious about these efforts. Was it put on hold only because the work would be superfluous, or also because it was deemed technically impractical? My understanding of some of the debate (here and elsewhere) was that it would cut dearly into the payload margin, and would therefore not be economical.

The relevant thread on upper stage recovery/reuse is at this link. The last substantial word from Musk on this (last November) was indeed that Starship will fill this need, so Falcon upper stage recovery is shelved.

But the topic here is Dragon-2 externally-visible hardware.
Getting through max-Q for humanity becoming fully spacefaring

Offline woods170

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #47 on: 03/14/2019 08:18 am »

Also, Hans' "almost everything" has the word "almost" in it. Notable things that are either completely refurbished, or outright replaced, on each re-flown cargo Dragon, are:
- Draco RCS thrusters
- Main heatshield
- Backshell SPAM
- CBM
- Parachutes (drogues and mains)

You will note that those are exactly the things that either get exposed to reentry (heating) effects or get directly exposed to sea water.

But those items constitute a small minority of the sheer number of components of a cargo Dragon. Just about everything that is inside the waterproofed shell of a cargo Dragon is indeed reused with little to no refurbishment or replacement. Things such as:
- Pressure vessel (aka the weldment)
- Backshell panels
- Service section structural components
- Most tankage, plumbing and valves for RCS, propulsion, ECS and consumables
- Avionics
- Wiring harnasses
- Just about everything else inside the pressure vessel that is part of cargo Dragon (other than cargo)
- CBM hatch
- Side hatch
- Optical sensors and cameras
- Nav lights
- Etc, etc, etc.


You listed the CBM in both sections as need replacement or full overhaul and as being reused with little to no refurbishment.

CBM versus CBM hatch.

CBM hatch sees little to no direct interaction with reentry heating effects or saltwater exposure. Courtesy of it being recessed inside the CBM ring, on top of the cargo Dragon.

But the CBM outer ring (which is what I was referring to as "CBM") sees quite a bit of reentry heating effects.
For example: see the outside of the CBM ring in these images: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36598.msg1318663#msg1318663


Which is why on Crew Dragon the entire docking business end is covered under a protective nose cap for reentry.  All that equipment there (LIDAR, NASA docking system, optical sensors, hatch, etc.) is expensive stuff. To protect it against reentry effects makes good sense. It allows all that stuff to be easily reused on a next Crew Dragon or to be reflown on the same vehicle in the role of cargo Dragon v2.
« Last Edit: 03/14/2019 08:24 am by woods170 »

Offline Jcc

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #48 on: 03/17/2019 07:29 pm »
The SuperDracos (abort thrusters) are covered with blow-out plugs that are designed to stay in place during the entire launch phase, in-space operations, reentry and landing.
They are only blown-out when the SuperDracos are actually used.
The blow-out plugs for the SuperDracos serve multiple purposes: prevention of FOD damage as well as protecting the SuperDracos against seawater intrusion upon splash-down and subsequent recovery operations.

Not to second guess SpaceX, but out of curiosity, how do they actually do that?
- Are they air tight seals, then they are under pressure in space?
- Or are they evacuated and tight seals, which means.. do they pull a vacuum on the ground prior to launch?
- Or are they actually not air tight and there is a hole that equalizes the inside and outside pressure, but then how does this prevent salt water to get inside?

I would guess that they have a valve that allows air to pass if the pressure difference is large, but not otherwise might work,

Offline jarmumd

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #49 on: 03/19/2019 04:41 pm »

Which is why on Crew Dragon the entire docking business end is covered under a protective nose cap for reentry.  All that equipment there (LIDAR, SpaceX Docking System, optical sensors, hatch, etc.) is expensive stuff. To protect it against reentry effects makes good sense. It allows all that stuff to be easily reused on a next Crew Dragon or to be reflown on the same vehicle in the role of cargo Dragon v2.

Corrected that for you.  It uses some parts from NDS, but most of it is SpaceX in house.

Offline woods170

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #50 on: 03/19/2019 05:40 pm »

Which is why on Crew Dragon the entire docking business end is covered under a protective nose cap for reentry.  All that equipment there (LIDAR, SpaceX Docking System, optical sensors, hatch, etc.) is expensive stuff. To protect it against reentry effects makes good sense. It allows all that stuff to be easily reused on a next Crew Dragon or to be reflown on the same vehicle in the role of cargo Dragon v2.

Corrected that for you.  It uses some parts from NDS, but most of it is SpaceX in house.

Thank you. But NASA docking system is correct. "NASA docking system" refers to the standard docking system that is being implemented for CCP, which is NDS (NASA docking system). And although the implementation of NDS as flown on DM-1 was entirely built by SpaceX, it was still built to NDS specifications. Hence that I referred to it as NASA docking system.

Offline jarmumd

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #51 on: 03/19/2019 05:47 pm »

Which is why on Crew Dragon the entire docking business end is covered under a protective nose cap for reentry.  All that equipment there (LIDAR, SpaceX Docking System, optical sensors, hatch, etc.) is expensive stuff. To protect it against reentry effects makes good sense. It allows all that stuff to be easily reused on a next Crew Dragon or to be reflown on the same vehicle in the role of cargo Dragon v2.

Corrected that for you.  It uses some parts from NDS, but most of it is SpaceX in house.

Thank you. But NASA docking system is correct. "NASA docking system" refers to the standard docking system that is being implemented for CCP, which is NDS (NASA docking system). And although the implementation of NDS as flown on DM-1 was entirely built by SpaceX, it was still built to NDS specifications. Hence that I referred to it as NASA docking system.

If you mean IDSS-compliant system, then okay you aren't technically wrong - although no-one in the community refers to it that way.  If you mean that SpaceX built a Nasa Docking System (i.e. same mechanism that is used on Orion/CST-100) then you are wrong - it uses a completely different attenuation system.

Offline woods170

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #52 on: 03/19/2019 08:32 pm »

Which is why on Crew Dragon the entire docking business end is covered under a protective nose cap for reentry.  All that equipment there (LIDAR, SpaceX Docking System, optical sensors, hatch, etc.) is expensive stuff. To protect it against reentry effects makes good sense. It allows all that stuff to be easily reused on a next Crew Dragon or to be reflown on the same vehicle in the role of cargo Dragon v2.

Corrected that for you.  It uses some parts from NDS, but most of it is SpaceX in house.

Thank you. But NASA docking system is correct. "NASA docking system" refers to the standard docking system that is being implemented for CCP, which is NDS (NASA docking system). And although the implementation of NDS as flown on DM-1 was entirely built by SpaceX, it was still built to NDS specifications. Hence that I referred to it as NASA docking system.

If you mean IDSS-compliant system, then okay you aren't technically wrong - although no-one in the community refers to it that way.  If you mean that SpaceX built a Nasa Docking System (i.e. same mechanism that is used on Orion/CST-100) then you are wrong - it uses a completely different attenuation system.

Attenuation system is not part of the NDS standard. SpaceX built a docking system that complies with the NDS specification. As such it is a NASA docking system, whether it is built by NASA or not.
« Last Edit: 03/19/2019 08:34 pm by woods170 »

Offline jarmumd

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #53 on: 03/19/2019 08:43 pm »

Which is why on Crew Dragon the entire docking business end is covered under a protective nose cap for reentry.  All that equipment there (LIDAR, SpaceX Docking System, optical sensors, hatch, etc.) is expensive stuff. To protect it against reentry effects makes good sense. It allows all that stuff to be easily reused on a next Crew Dragon or to be reflown on the same vehicle in the role of cargo Dragon v2.

Corrected that for you.  It uses some parts from NDS, but most of it is SpaceX in house.

Thank you. But NASA docking system is correct. "NASA docking system" refers to the standard docking system that is being implemented for CCP, which is NDS (NASA docking system). And although the implementation of NDS as flown on DM-1 was entirely built by SpaceX, it was still built to NDS specifications. Hence that I referred to it as NASA docking system.

If you mean IDSS-compliant system, then okay you aren't technically wrong - although no-one in the community refers to it that way.  If you mean that SpaceX built a Nasa Docking System (i.e. same mechanism that is used on Orion/CST-100) then you are wrong - it uses a completely different attenuation system.

Attenuation system is not part of the NDS standard. SpaceX built a docking system that complies with the NDS specification. As such it is a NASA docking system, whether it is built by NASA or not.

Sorry, you are not correct.  NDS is a Boeing built docking system for Orion and CST.  IDSS is the standard/specification by which all the dockings systems, SxDS/NDS/IBDM must comply.  There is no NDS specification.

Offline woods170

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #54 on: 03/22/2019 11:22 am »

Which is why on Crew Dragon the entire docking business end is covered under a protective nose cap for reentry.  All that equipment there (LIDAR, SpaceX Docking System, optical sensors, hatch, etc.) is expensive stuff. To protect it against reentry effects makes good sense. It allows all that stuff to be easily reused on a next Crew Dragon or to be reflown on the same vehicle in the role of cargo Dragon v2.

Corrected that for you.  It uses some parts from NDS, but most of it is SpaceX in house.

Thank you. But NASA docking system is correct. "NASA docking system" refers to the standard docking system that is being implemented for CCP, which is NDS (NASA docking system). And although the implementation of NDS as flown on DM-1 was entirely built by SpaceX, it was still built to NDS specifications. Hence that I referred to it as NASA docking system.

If you mean IDSS-compliant system, then okay you aren't technically wrong - although no-one in the community refers to it that way.  If you mean that SpaceX built a Nasa Docking System (i.e. same mechanism that is used on Orion/CST-100) then you are wrong - it uses a completely different attenuation system.

Attenuation system is not part of the NDS standard. SpaceX built a docking system that complies with the NDS specification. As such it is a NASA docking system, whether it is built by NASA or not.

Sorry, you are not correct.  NDS is a Boeing built docking system for Orion and CST.  IDSS is the standard/specification by which all the dockings systems, SxDS/NDS/IBDM must comply.  There is no NDS specification.

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20150014481.pdf

SpaceX didn't build it docking system off the IDSS standard. They used the NDS IDD as the starting point for developing their version of NDS. That's because the NDS IDD was made available to them by NASA. And the fact that NASA had already written specifications for the host of gritty details (for NDS) that are not addressed in the IDSS standard. It allowed SpaceX to build their version of an IDSS-complient NDS in a much shorter time frame.
As such the docking system SpaceX uses on Crew Dragon is the SpaceX implementation of NDS. Which means that the docking system follows the NDS IDD to the letter, except for those parts of the system that are not specified by the NDS IDD.

Such as the attenuation system you mentioned.
« Last Edit: 03/22/2019 11:23 am by woods170 »

Offline jarmumd

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #55 on: 03/22/2019 01:02 pm »

SpaceX didn't build it docking system off the IDSS standard. They used the NDS IDD as the starting point for developing their version of NDS. That's because the NDS IDD was made available to them by NASA. And the fact that NASA had already written specifications for the host of gritty details (for NDS) that are not addressed in the IDSS standard. It allowed SpaceX to build their version of an IDSS-complient NDS in a much shorter time frame.
As such the docking system SpaceX uses on Crew Dragon is the SpaceX implementation of NDS. Which means that the docking system follows the NDS IDD to the letter, except for those parts of the system that are not specified by the NDS IDD.

Such as the attenuation system you mentioned.

Fair enough, in the context of that specific document there is an NDS IDD.  But then your still not precise enough, it would still be the SpaceX - NDS IDD compliant mechanism.  To only say that it is an NDS is not specific enough since there is NDS-B1 which is a specific mechanism (the shorthand of which is NDS).  Whereas the shorthand for the SpaceX - NDS IDD compliant mechanism is the SpaceX Docking System (SxDS).  It is important to separate the standard from the mechanisms in our naming conventions, otherwise it would appear you are saying that Boeing's docking system was on SpaceX, which is untrue.

Offline drnscr

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #56 on: 03/22/2019 02:19 pm »

Which is why on Crew Dragon the entire docking business end is covered under a protective nose cap for reentry.  All that equipment there (LIDAR, SpaceX Docking System, optical sensors, hatch, etc.) is expensive stuff. To protect it against reentry effects makes good sense. It allows all that stuff to be easily reused on a next Crew Dragon or to be reflown on the same vehicle in the role of cargo Dragon v2.

Corrected that for you.  It uses some parts from NDS, but most of it is SpaceX in house.

Thank you. But NASA docking system is correct. "NASA docking system" refers to the standard docking system that is being implemented for CCP, which is NDS (NASA docking system). And although the implementation of NDS as flown on DM-1 was entirely built by SpaceX, it was still built to NDS specifications. Hence that I referred to it as NASA docking system.

Girls, you’re both pretty... isn’t it kind of sad we have to argue over what nomenclature to use??

Offline jarmumd

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Re: Dragon 2 outside features questions.
« Reply #57 on: 03/22/2019 03:09 pm »

Which is why on Crew Dragon the entire docking business end is covered under a protective nose cap for reentry.  All that equipment there (LIDAR, SpaceX Docking System, optical sensors, hatch, etc.) is expensive stuff. To protect it against reentry effects makes good sense. It allows all that stuff to be easily reused on a next Crew Dragon or to be reflown on the same vehicle in the role of cargo Dragon v2.

Corrected that for you.  It uses some parts from NDS, but most of it is SpaceX in house.

Thank you. But NASA docking system is correct. "NASA docking system" refers to the standard docking system that is being implemented for CCP, which is NDS (NASA docking system). And although the implementation of NDS as flown on DM-1 was entirely built by SpaceX, it was still built to NDS specifications. Hence that I referred to it as NASA docking system.

Girls, you’re both pretty... isn’t it kind of sad we have to argue over what nomenclature to use??

Good point.  We should just be happy in our Boeing built, Orion DM-1 mission, launched on a Blue origin booster to space station freedom!

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