Author Topic: What was the Saturn D?  (Read 9327 times)

Offline Graham2001

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What was the Saturn D?
« on: 05/08/2009 12:40 am »
I was browsing through the NTRS and came across a couple of early 60's documents which deal with a launch vehicle called the Saturn D, which I've not downloaded yet due to their size.

I had heard of the proposed Saturn A, B, & C launch vehicle families, from which came the Saturn I/Ib & V, but not this one.

I've checked the Encyclopedia Astronautica and it is not mentioned there, so I thought I'd ask here to see what anyone knows this proposed design.

Graham

1. Saturn D preliminary design study. Volume 3: Appendices A through E(73mb)

2. Research and investigative analysis using Kron's method of analyzing redundant structures(13mb)

Offline Orbiter

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Re: What was the Saturn D?
« Reply #1 on: 05/08/2009 02:15 am »
This is the same as the Saturn V-D correct?
I believe it was a proposed heavy lifting variant, big enough to lift things like Skylab without a problem. Might have been strong enough to take a man to mars.
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Offline Patchouli

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Re: What was the Saturn D?
« Reply #2 on: 05/08/2009 02:28 am »
Saturn V-D was a Saturn V with it's first stage replaced by a stage and a half SC-I also known as the V-B which had four reusable booster engines that dropped off and one sustainer engine.
It also had four 120 to 260" SRBs.
The vehicle in it's most powerful configuration with four 260" solids would have had three times the payload of the baseline Energia rocket used on Buran.
The V-D almost could have put a full sized ISS type station into orbit in just one launch.

Two of them could have lifted everything needed with payload to spare for a human mission to Mars using NTR propulsion.
« Last Edit: 05/08/2009 02:40 am by Patchouli »

Offline Proponent

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Re: What was the Saturn D?
« Reply #3 on: 05/08/2009 05:02 am »
Interesting.  It's actually a much earlier concept than the V-D:  early-model Saturns (C-1 and -2) with one or two nuclear upper stages.  See page 95 and following for a summary of configurations.
« Last Edit: 05/08/2009 05:04 am by Proponent »

Offline kch

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Re: What was the Saturn D?
« Reply #4 on: 05/08/2009 05:08 am »
"Saturn D" could well have been any of 3 (or more) different things. 


From the first document you linked, I gather that Saturn D (as such) was a study of the use of nuclear upper stages with the S-I (and possibly S-II) stages of the C-1 and C-2 Saturns.


The second document you linked contains the following:

"The Saturn SA-D1 is divided into the upper stages consisting of the payload, dummy S-V and dummy S-IV, and the booster or S-I stage ..."

I suspect this may be an earlier designation for SA-1 (C-1 configuration with dummy 2nd and 3rd stages, with the added D indicating dummy upper stages, or perhaps demo flight) (flown on October 27th, 1961 from LC-34)


The S-ID stage was to have been a modified S-IC with the outer four F-1s mounted on a frame (similar to the Atlas ICBM) which would drop away when 70% of the propellants were consumed, leaving the center engine acting as a sustainer to take the rest of the vehicle into orbit.

This stage would have been used by itself as Saturn V-B, with an S-IVB second stage (and possible Centaur third stage) as Saturn V-C, and with S-II & S-IVB upper stages and various sizes and numbers of solid boosters as Saturn V-D.


Hope this helps ... :)

Offline Graham2001

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Re: What was the Saturn D?
« Reply #5 on: 05/08/2009 12:30 pm »
"Saturn D" could well have been any of 3 (or more) different things. 


From the first document you linked, I gather that Saturn D (as such) was a study of the use of nuclear upper stages with the S-I (and possibly S-II) stages of the C-1 and C-2 Saturns.


The second document you linked contains the following:

"The Saturn SA-D1 is divided into the upper stages consisting of the payload, dummy S-V and dummy S-IV, and the booster or S-I stage ..."

I suspect this may be an earlier designation for SA-1 (C-1 configuration with dummy 2nd and 3rd stages, with the added D indicating dummy upper stages, or perhaps demo flight) (flown on October 27th, 1961 from LC-34)

Hope this helps ... :)

Thanks, I've been looking for information on the Saturn/NERVA stages for a while. Thought both documents dealt with the same project because I found them on the NTRS using the same keyword.

Offline edkyle99

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Re: What was the Saturn D?
« Reply #6 on: 05/08/2009 04:55 pm »

The second document you linked contains the following:

"The Saturn SA-D1 is divided into the upper stages consisting of the payload, dummy S-V and dummy S-IV, and the booster or S-I stage ..."

I suspect this may be an earlier designation for SA-1 (C-1 configuration with dummy 2nd and 3rd stages, with the added D indicating dummy upper stages, or perhaps demo flight) (flown on October 27th, 1961 from LC-34)

SA-D1 was the Saturn I Block I dynamic vehicle stack assembled in the MSFC dynamic test stand during 1961.  It consisted of the SA-D first stage and dummy S-IV and S-V stages, configured to simulate the specific SA-1 flight vehicle.  After SA-D1 testing was completed, the vehicle was disassembled and modified to simulate the specific SA-2 flight vehicle, this time as the "SA-D2" stack.  SA-D3 and SA-D4 dynamic vehicle stacks were also assembled, using the same stages.  The SA-D dynamic vehicle is now on display at MSFC. (First Photo)

A separate dymanic test first stage was created for the Block II Saturns.  It is now on display at the US Space and Rocket Center in Huntsville.  (Second Photo)

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 05/08/2009 05:01 pm by edkyle99 »

Offline kch

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Re: What was the Saturn D?
« Reply #7 on: 05/08/2009 04:59 pm »

SA-D1 was the Saturn I Block I dynamic vehicle stack assembled in the MSFC dynamic test stand during 1961.  It consisted of the SA-D first stage, S-IV-H/D second stage, and S-V dummy, configured to simulate the specific SA-1 flight vehicle.  After SA-D1 testing was completed, the vehicle was disassembled and modified to simulate the specific SA-2 flight vehicle, this time as the "SA-D2" stack.  SA-D3 and SA-D4 dynamic vehicle stacks were also assembled, using the same stages.  The SA-D dynamic vehicle is now on display at MSFC. (First Photo)

A separate dymanic test first stage was created for the Block II Saturns.  It is now on display at the US Space and Rocket Center in Huntsville.  (Second Photo)

 - Ed Kyle

Thanks, Ed -- glad to have that straightened out!  Much appreciated.

Offline edkyle99

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Re: What was the Saturn D?
« Reply #8 on: 05/08/2009 05:04 pm »

SA-D1 was the Saturn I Block I dynamic vehicle stack assembled in the MSFC dynamic test stand during 1961.  It consisted of the SA-D first stage, S-IV-H/D second stage, and S-V dummy, configured to simulate the specific SA-1 flight vehicle.  After SA-D1 testing was completed, the vehicle was disassembled and modified to simulate the specific SA-2 flight vehicle, this time as the "SA-D2" stack.  SA-D3 and SA-D4 dynamic vehicle stacks were also assembled, using the same stages.  The SA-D dynamic vehicle is now on display at MSFC. (First Photo)

A separate dymanic test first stage was created for the Block II Saturns.  It is now on display at the US Space and Rocket Center in Huntsville.  (Second Photo)

 - Ed Kyle

Thanks, Ed -- glad to have that straightened out!  Much appreciated.

I need to make one correction.  The SA-D1 through SA-D4 stacks used *dummy* S-IV and S-V stages similar to the water-filled dummy stages that flew.  The S-IV dummy, in particular, used tanks that were smaller in diameter than the S-IV stage, augmented by a dry structure to mimic the S-IV diameter.  The Block II dynamic vehicle stacks (SA-D5, etc.) used the S-IV H/D stage (hydrostatic test stage reconfigured for use as a dynamic test stage) that was essentially the same basic structure as a real S-IV stage.  S-IV H/D is part of the USSRC Saturn I stack - the only known surviving S-IV stage.

As for the original question about "Saturn D", it appeared to be assigned, at the time, to future Saturn growth concepts using nuclear upper stages.  The GD study listed above was presented to MSFC in 1961, even before the first Saturn C-I (later just Saturn I) had flown.  Saturn C-2 was under development at the time, and Saturn C-3 was nearly ready to begin.  Saturn C-5 (not renamed Saturn V until 1963) wasn't even on the drawing board, but it would be within a few months. 

  - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 05/08/2009 05:14 pm by edkyle99 »

Offline Graham2001

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Re: What was the Saturn D?
« Reply #9 on: 05/08/2009 11:32 pm »

As for the original question about "Saturn D", it appeared to be assigned, at the time, to future Saturn growth concepts using nuclear upper stages.  The GD study listed above was presented to MSFC in 1961, even before the first Saturn C-I (later just Saturn I) had flown.  Saturn C-2 was under development at the time, and Saturn C-3 was nearly ready to begin.  Saturn C-5 (not renamed Saturn V until 1963) wasn't even on the drawing board, but it would be within a few months. 

  - Ed Kyle

And it may have been for a fairly short period of time or even manufacturer specific, later documents which I've seen refer to the NERVA variants with a /N (Eg Saturn Ib/N).

Offline mlorrey

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Re: What was the Saturn D?
« Reply #10 on: 05/09/2009 01:42 am »

As for the original question about "Saturn D", it appeared to be assigned, at the time, to future Saturn growth concepts using nuclear upper stages.  The GD study listed above was presented to MSFC in 1961, even before the first Saturn C-I (later just Saturn I) had flown.  Saturn C-2 was under development at the time, and Saturn C-3 was nearly ready to begin.  Saturn C-5 (not renamed Saturn V until 1963) wasn't even on the drawing board, but it would be within a few months. 

  - Ed Kyle

And it may have been for a fairly short period of time or even manufacturer specific, later documents which I've seen refer to the NERVA variants with a /N (Eg Saturn Ib/N).

Yeah, the C also had a Nerva upper stage version:
http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/s/satc3b3.gif

Anyways, here's the Saturn D design study:
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19740074167_1974074167.pdf Its a 73 meg file...
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Offline Graham2001

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Re: What was the Saturn D?
« Reply #11 on: 05/09/2009 07:26 am »

As for the original question about "Saturn D", it appeared to be assigned, at the time, to future Saturn growth concepts using nuclear upper stages.  The GD study listed above was presented to MSFC in 1961, even before the first Saturn C-I (later just Saturn I) had flown.  Saturn C-2 was under development at the time, and Saturn C-3 was nearly ready to begin.  Saturn C-5 (not renamed Saturn V until 1963) wasn't even on the drawing board, but it would be within a few months. 

  - Ed Kyle

And it may have been for a fairly short period of time or even manufacturer specific, later documents which I've seen refer to the NERVA variants with a /N (Eg Saturn Ib/N).

Yeah, the C also had a Nerva upper stage version:
http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/s/satc3b3.gif

Anyways, here's the Saturn D design study:
<snip>

I'd already linked to that one in the OP, managed to download it through a net cafe and it's the final volume with some some of the supporting studies into the 'Saturn D' which is more and more looking like a manufacturers designation.

A check of a Martin study (see link below) dating from around March 1961 contains no reference to this designation.

That said the 'Saturn D' study did feature one thing I had not seen in a NERVA study before, a three stage LV with a conventional first stage and NERVA powered second & third stages.

With regards the Martin study, I'd be very interested in getting my hands on either Volume 2, which contains the vehicle design study or a copy of the plans with measurements of the various components especially the NERVA drive.

Reactor in-flight test system. Volume 1: RIFT program summary(4.41mb)
« Last Edit: 05/13/2009 08:18 am by Graham2001 »

Offline Proponent

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Re: What was the Saturn D?
« Reply #12 on: 01/09/2019 04:43 pm »
On DoE's OSTI website, I have come across more about the Saturn D.  Specifically, the attached paper about nuclear safety provides some details about the Saturn D-1 and D-2 configurations.

Offline Graham2001

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Re: What was the Saturn D?
« Reply #13 on: 01/09/2019 11:36 pm »
Thanks for locating that, most of the documentation on NASA's website has disappeared.

Tags: saturn d 
 

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