Author Topic: President Trump calls for a US Space Force - June 18, 2018 to December 20, 2019  (Read 64629 times)

Offline RonM

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Re: US Space Force - US to Militarise Space?
« Reply #100 on: 08/14/2018 02:55 pm »
Well, I guess a fantasy explanation fits the Space Force. It's just as ridiculous.

What I just described is literally what General Keith Alexander did with USCYBERCOM in late 2010. The Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines (yes, the Marines had their own) cyber forces were integrated. In just about everyone's opinion it was stupid for the Army to have been involved with cyber in the first place, that opened the door for the Navy, the Air Force wanted in too... and let's not talk about the Marines, eh? The Air Force should never have been involved in space in the first place, it was stupid.

So, we should have created Space Force back in the late 1950s? That's ridiculous.

If you're going to make a point, do it from the start instead of wasting our time with BS creative writing.

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: US Space Force - US to Militarise Space?
« Reply #101 on: 08/14/2018 04:30 pm »
Trump’s PAC wants to know which Space Force logo you like best... ???
https://www.theverge.com/2018/8/9/17672118/trump-space-force-logo-branding-military-branch

"Mars Awaits" in logo in the lower right-hand corner?  Really?

Between this, Sec. Mattis's initial opposition, and the fact that "Space Force" apparently goes over well as a chant at recent Trump rallies (maybe it's the new "Lock her up!"), I have a hard time avoiding the suspicion that space force is just a political stunt, albeit potentially a very costly one.
If you listen to the recent speeches they are conflating space exploration and space militarization...Those potential"Space Force" logos look like the are brought to you by Fisher-Price Baby toys & Baby gear... Wear it proudly... ::)
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Offline Proponent

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Re: US Space Force - US to Militarise Space?
« Reply #102 on: 08/14/2018 10:08 pm »
Why would it be costly? They would do the same thing as before but under a new name.

Duplication, for one thing.  No doubt all of the other armed services will retain space commands of some sort, just as, 70 years after the creation of the US Air Force, the Army, the Navy, and the Navy's army (Marine Corps) have their own air forces.

And each new bureaucracy has its own overhead and basic needs.  Human organizations tend to try to preserve themselves, expand their perks and their influence in ways that have little to do with the reasons for which they were created.

The major argument I've heard for a space force is that the Air Force tends to favor air and aircraft to the detriment of space.  If the existing bureaucracy isn't functioning correctly, maybe it would be better to try to fix it than to create another bureaucracy, which will no doubt eventually exhibit its own dysfunctions.
« Last Edit: 08/15/2018 12:27 am by Proponent »

Offline yg1968

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Offline RonM

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Re: US Space Force - US to Militarise Space?
« Reply #104 on: 08/15/2018 03:52 am »
Here is a blog in favor of it:

https://defenceindepth.co/2017/06/24/space-warfare-in-the-pentagon-in-support-of-an-independent-space-corps/

Interesting blog, and from a lecturer at King's College London. He makes some good points, but is now the time? It will be up to Congress to determine if it is time for a new military branch.

Offline QuantumG

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Re: US Space Force - US to Militarise Space?
« Reply #105 on: 08/15/2018 07:54 am »
So, we should have created Space Force back in the late 1950s? That's ridiculous.

Why? The military use of space was drastically delayed precisely because the Army didn't know what to do with von Braun's team, and the Navy's rockets were junk. Sputnik never would have been such an embarrassment if the US had been serious about space policy from the beginning.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline RonM

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Re: US Space Force - US to Militarise Space?
« Reply #106 on: 08/15/2018 02:54 pm »
So, we should have created Space Force back in the late 1950s? That's ridiculous.

Why? The military use of space was drastically delayed precisely because the Army didn't know what to do with von Braun's team, and the Navy's rockets were junk. Sputnik never would have been such an embarrassment if the US had been serious about space policy from the beginning.

There's a big difference between taking space policy seriously and creating a new military branch. People are laughing about it today even with our dependence on space. Imagine the reaction from Congress sixty years ago. It wasn't needed back then. Today, maybe. Sometime in the future, definitely.

Offline Jim

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Re: US Space Force - US to Militarise Space?
« Reply #107 on: 08/15/2018 03:56 pm »

Why? The military use of space was drastically delayed precisely because the Army didn't know what to do with von Braun's team, and the Navy's rockets were junk.  Sputnik never would have been such an embarrassment if the US had been serious about space policy from the beginning.


Not true. The Air Force started WS-117L in 1955.  Corona/Discoverer, MIDAS and SAMOS (WS-117L) were all in work before Sputnik.   Vanguard existed only so that it could prove freedom of space.  von Braun's team over taken by Convair, Martin, Douglas and STL's efforts.

Offline QuantumG

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Re: US Space Force - US to Militarise Space?
« Reply #108 on: 08/15/2018 11:06 pm »
Not true. The Air Force started WS-117L in 1955.  Corona/Discoverer, MIDAS and SAMOS (WS-117L) were all in work before Sputnik.   Vanguard existed only so that it could prove freedom of space.  von Braun's team over taken by Convair, Martin, Douglas and STL's efforts.

... and if they hadn't had to rally against the existing military bias, it would have happened sooner.

RTV-A-2 Hiroc was cut in '48 because the Air Force didn't see the point of ICBMs. It wasn't until '54 that things got back on track with the Atlas, and that was only a result of Soviet testing of nuclear weapons.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Online Elvis in Space

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Re: US Space Force - US to Militarise Space?
« Reply #109 on: 08/16/2018 12:15 am »
Why would it be costly? They would do the same thing as before but under a new name.

Duplication, for one thing.  No doubt all of the other armed services will retain space commands of some sort, just as, 70 years after the creation of the US Air Force, the Army, the Navy, and the Navy's army (Marine Corps) have their own air forces.

And each new bureaucracy has its own overhead and basic needs.  Human organizations tend to try to preserve themselves, expand their perks and their influence in ways that have little to do with the reasons for which they were created.

The major argument I've heard for a space force is that the Air Force tends to favor air and aircraft to the detriment of space.  If the existing bureaucracy isn't functioning correctly, maybe it would be better to try to fix it than to create another bureaucracy, which will no doubt eventually exhibit its own dysfunctions.

Fortunately the British didn't think that way before creating the RAF in 1916. The resulting organization probably made the difference for success during the Battle of Britain.
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Offline Proponent

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Re: US Space Force - US to Militarise Space?
« Reply #110 on: 08/16/2018 02:04 am »
Fortunately the British didn't think that way before creating the RAF in 1916. The resulting organization probably made the difference for success during the Battle of Britain.

1918, actually.  What is the evidence that the Battle of Britain would have turned out differently had the UK's air power not been a separate armed service?  I've seen the argument that a space force makes sense, because it's just like creating an air force out of the Army Air Forces.  But that's facile without evidence that the air force's separation has been a good thing.

Offline QuantumG

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Re: US Space Force - US to Militarise Space?
« Reply #111 on: 08/16/2018 03:43 am »
1918, actually.  What is the evidence that the Battle of Britain would have turned out differently had the UK's air power not been a separate armed service?  I've seen the argument that a space force makes sense, because it's just like creating an air force out of the Army Air Forces.  But that's facile without evidence that the air force's separation has been a good thing.

The the state of the US air forces up until Pearl Harbor is pretty good evidence.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Online Elvis in Space

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Re: US Space Force - US to Militarise Space?
« Reply #112 on: 08/16/2018 04:16 am »
Fortunately the British didn't think that way before creating the RAF in 1916. The resulting organization probably made the difference for success during the Battle of Britain.

1918, actually.  What is the evidence that the Battle of Britain would have turned out differently had the UK's air power not been a separate armed service?  I've seen the argument that a space force makes sense, because it's just like creating an air force out of the Army Air Forces.  But that's facile without evidence that the air force's separation has been a good thing.

I have no hard evidence. It's merely speculation based on the narrowness of victory left little room for any less air power than the RAF was able to field. Without a separate service the funding and leadership could easily have been diverted to other priorities.
« Last Edit: 08/16/2018 04:17 am by Elvis in Space »
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Offline Proponent

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Re: US Space Force - US to Militarise Space?
« Reply #113 on: 08/17/2018 03:18 am »
1918, actually.  What is the evidence that the Battle of Britain would have turned out differently had the UK's air power not been a separate armed service?  I've seen the argument that a space force makes sense, because it's just like creating an air force out of the Army Air Forces.  But that's facile without evidence that the air force's separation has been a good thing.

The the state of the US air forces up until Pearl Harbor is pretty good evidence.

Well, they certainly were much smaller than they needed to be to fight WW2, but so was the rest of the US military.

If the point is to suggest that the dismal performance of America's air defenses on 7 December 1941 was due in significant measure to the lack of an independent air force, I would point out that the fully fledged US Air Force proved utterly useless the next time America was attacked by air, on 11 September 2001.
« Last Edit: 08/17/2018 03:39 am by Proponent »

Offline QuantumG

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Re: US Space Force - US to Militarise Space?
« Reply #114 on: 08/17/2018 04:22 am »
If the point is to suggest that the dismal performance of America's air defenses on 7 December 1941 was due in significant measure to the lack of an independent air force

Sigh. The point was to refer to the well known historical failure of the US to take air superiority seriously until after Pearl Harbor.

Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline RonM

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Re: US Space Force - US to Militarise Space?
« Reply #115 on: 08/17/2018 02:35 pm »
If the point is to suggest that the dismal performance of America's air defenses on 7 December 1941 was due in significant measure to the lack of an independent air force

Sigh. The point was to refer to the well known historical failure of the US to take air superiority seriously until after Pearl Harbor.

With the exception of the Navy, the US didn't take military preparedness seriously because of isolationist policies. FDR did, but he was pretty much alone. Cherry picking history isn't a good way to justify Space Force.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: US Space Force - US to Militarise Space?
« Reply #116 on: 08/17/2018 02:36 pm »
Listen to what he says and then extract the obvious intent, not the specific wording, and one will have a good idea of where anything he says is headed. In other words, automatic literal interpretations are ill advised. That will be the outcome of this directive as well.

Agreed. And on that note, it's worth pointing out that the directive Trump signed today speaks nothing of the Space Force; it is solely about space traffic and debris management.

I agree with Chuck's broad statement about not accepting DJT's statements as "automatically literal".  It appears that he is calling for a new layer of military bureaucracy however.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Proponent

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Re: US Space Force - US to Militarise Space?
« Reply #117 on: 08/18/2018 01:47 pm »
If the point is to suggest that the dismal performance of America's air defenses on 7 December 1941 was due in significant measure to the lack of an independent air force

Sigh. The point was to refer to the well known historical failure of the US to take air superiority seriously until after Pearl Harbor.

The US then quickly developed an appreciation for air superiority and achieved it -- without creating and independent air force..
« Last Edit: 08/19/2018 03:06 am by Proponent »

Offline QuantumG

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Re: US Space Force - US to Militarise Space?
« Reply #118 on: 08/19/2018 10:41 pm »
The US then quickly developed an appreciation for air superiority and achieved it -- without creating and independent air force..

Hardly! US air superiority didn't become a certainty until the mid to late 50's.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline Jim

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Re: US Space Force - US to Militarise Space?
« Reply #119 on: 08/20/2018 02:21 pm »
The US then quickly developed an appreciation for air superiority and achieved it -- without creating and independent air force..

Hardly! US air superiority didn't become a certainty until the mid to late 50's.


It was at the end of the WWII, once Germany and Japan were defeated. There were no other rivals.

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