Author Topic: Starship Manufacturing Facility in San Pedro (Los Angeles)  (Read 161578 times)

Offline Nehkara

I mentioned this on Reddit but even just from a cost perspective, it's unlikely that a hop from LA to anywhere would actually be less money than just putting it on a barge and sending it through the Panama Canal.  Not to mention the feasibility and mountain of red tape.

Offline AncientU

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6257
  • Liked: 4164
  • Likes Given: 6079
Re: Starship Manufacturing Facility in San Pedro (Los Angeles)
« Reply #61 on: 03/20/2018 01:32 pm »
No over populated land flights for any BFR for ages.
Cities like Boston are freaking out and stoping Uber driverless car tests because one person got killed in Arizona.

16 Pedestrians die in traffic in the US every day -- 6,000 per year.
Just because this one is news doesn't mean anything in the long run.
https://www.npr.org/2017/03/30/522085503/2016-saw-a-record-increase-in-pedestrian-deaths

Same will be for overflights of populated areas one day...
« Last Edit: 03/20/2018 01:36 pm by AncientU »
"If we shared everything [we are working on] people would think we are insane!"
-- SpaceX friend of mlindner

Offline philw1776

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1827
  • Seacoast NH
  • Liked: 1821
  • Likes Given: 904
Re: Starship Manufacturing Facility in San Pedro (Los Angeles)
« Reply #62 on: 03/20/2018 02:08 pm »
No over populated land flights for any BFR for ages.
Cities like Boston are freaking out and stoping Uber driverless car tests because one person got killed in Arizona.

16 Pedestrians die in traffic in the US every day -- 6,000 per year.
Just because this one is news doesn't mean anything in the long run.
https://www.npr.org/2017/03/30/522085503/2016-saw-a-record-increase-in-pedestrian-deaths

Same will be for overflights of populated areas one day...

Great illustration of my point.  It's hysteria.
Any failure of a new technology that costs lives will be met with hysteria amplified by politicians reacting emotionally not rationally to the hysteria. 
It will be a LONG time before flying flaming natural gas tanker bombs overfly populations while sub-orbital.
Back to Boston again.  There's periodic uproar over LNG tankers, ships with no flames coming out of their stern entering Boston harbor.
« Last Edit: 03/20/2018 02:10 pm by philw1776 »
FULL SEND!!!!

Offline envy887

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7993
  • Liked: 6534
  • Likes Given: 2928
Re: Starship Manufacturing Facility in San Pedro (Los Angeles)
« Reply #63 on: 03/20/2018 02:35 pm »
No over populated land flights for any BFR for ages.
Cities like Boston are freaking out and stoping Uber driverless car tests because one person got killed in Arizona.
Retrograde launch from vandemburg would give a sea approach to Canavral. BC is a bit trickier.

It's almost certainly cheaper to ship though Panama than to fly a BFR all the way around the world. Just the cost of methalox would probably pay the canal fees.

Offline gongora

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9500
  • US
  • Liked: 12242
  • Likes Given: 5402
Re: Starship Manufacturing Facility in San Pedro (Los Angeles)
« Reply #64 on: 03/20/2018 02:59 pm »
my guess is that the announced 'start of production' for the first prototype ship refers to components they're building in Hawthorne (maybe something is moving for prop tanks at Janicki too) and they plan to assemble it in the 'Phase I' building when it's completed.

As for boosters, subsequent spacecraft prototypes and first production versions I think the 'Phase II' facility could suffice for a while even into operational flights. It's likely they're aiming at relatively high reusability right from the first production vehicle, so low production levels would be enough initially. Then they may build bigger facilities closer to the launch sites.
 

I am actually pretty certain that phase one will be infrastructure for Falcon core recovery. The document mentioned that recovery ops would be moved to the new area, would be logical for the phase one building to replace the temporary tent. SpaceX will probably need a lot of space to integrate even BFS on its own, so would expect phase two before it is constructed (plus Falcon recovery ops are an immediate need, BFS still has some development and subsystem buildout to do before they need the giant integration facility)

Core recovery just requires a couple cranes, a small work area with stand for the booster, and a cleared area large enough to lay the booster onto a truck.  There isn't really any indoor work.  They already have a refurbishment facility 15 miles away, not much point in building another one.

Offline speedevil

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4406
  • Fife
  • Liked: 2761
  • Likes Given: 3369
Re: Starship Manufacturing Facility in San Pedro (Los Angeles)
« Reply #65 on: 03/20/2018 03:20 pm »
No over populated land flights for any BFR for ages.
Cities like Boston are freaking out and stoping Uber driverless car tests because one person got killed in Arizona.

Out of interest. How far can the booster actually hop if it doesn't have the weight of the BFS on top of it? In other words, can the booster come close to making orbit on its own?

Yes.
It seems almost certain it can get to orbit on its own. (even assuming BFS-like dry mass ratio, and sea-level ISP for Raptor).

However, it is almost useless in orbit on its own, as it can't aerobrake back to LEO from an injection orbit, and to land it, you would need to drag up a thousand tons or so of propellant.

There are contrived scenarios I can imagine for it, but most seem better served by refuelling using BFS in extended orbits, or even unbound, as the very slight possible dry mass advantage is almost always more-than-cancelled by the ability of BFS to scrub off that 7km/s aerodynamically if you want to get down.

It can get to orbit, but the maximum it can actually hop and get down safely is of the order of 1000km, and it's going to be doing the descent with well over a hundred tons of fuel if anything goes wrong.
« Last Edit: 03/20/2018 03:28 pm by speedevil »

Offline ZachF

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1420
  • Immensely complex & high risk
  • NH, USA, Earth
  • Liked: 2269
  • Likes Given: 455
Re: Starship Manufacturing Facility in San Pedro (Los Angeles)
« Reply #66 on: 03/20/2018 04:16 pm »
How does the size of the planned facility compare to Blue Origins new Florida factory?
artist, so take opinions expressed above with a well-rendered grain of salt...
https://www.instagram.com/artzf/

Offline Lars-J

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6718
  • California
  • Liked: 8144
  • Likes Given: 5199
Re: Starship Manufacturing Facility in San Pedro (Los Angeles)
« Reply #67 on: 03/20/2018 04:21 pm »
How does the size of the planned facility compare to Blue Origins new Florida factory?

It is probably smaller. But note that this facility will act more as a final assembly point, since many components will be built elsewhere.


Offline ZachF

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1420
  • Immensely complex & high risk
  • NH, USA, Earth
  • Liked: 2269
  • Likes Given: 455
Re: Starship Manufacturing Facility in San Pedro (Los Angeles)
« Reply #68 on: 03/20/2018 04:24 pm »
How does the size of the planned facility compare to Blue Origins new Florida factory?

It is probably smaller. But note that this facility will act more as a final assembly point, since many components will be built elsewhere.

The same is pretty true of BO though, Engines will be built in Huntsville, there are probably some things that will be built in the PNW.

artist, so take opinions expressed above with a well-rendered grain of salt...
https://www.instagram.com/artzf/

Offline RedLineTrain

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2055
  • Liked: 2076
  • Likes Given: 8931
Re: Starship Manufacturing Facility in San Pedro (Los Angeles)
« Reply #69 on: 03/20/2018 04:25 pm »
How does the size of the planned facility compare to Blue Origins new Florida factory?

The Blue Origin Florida factory is 750,000 square feet, so almost four times the size of the SpaceX San Pedro factory.

Volumewise, the difference would be less than 3x, since the Blue Origin factory max roof height appears to be 82 feet/25 meters while the San Pedro factory roof height is 105 feet/32 meters.
« Last Edit: 03/20/2018 04:25 pm by RedLineTrain »

Offline Ronsmytheiii

  • Moderator
  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23391
  • Liked: 1862
  • Likes Given: 979
Re: Starship Manufacturing Facility in San Pedro (Los Angeles)
« Reply #70 on: 03/20/2018 04:58 pm »
Core recovery just requires a couple cranes, a small work area with stand for the booster, and a cleared area large enough to lay the booster onto a truck.  There isn't really any indoor work.  They already have a refurbishment facility 15 miles away, not much point in building another one.

True, should caveat what I said. Think the phase 1 building will likely be used to store Falcon 9 cores initially, but will eventually be incorporated into the floor space of the factory. SpaceX currently has a lack of space for used cores, but donít need a place to refurbish them as they have Hawthorne. They have the temporary tent, but just like the recovery ops will probably consolidate it at this new facility.

Offline OnWithTheShow

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 348
  • Philadelphia, PA
  • Liked: 153
  • Likes Given: 27
Re: Starship Manufacturing Facility in San Pedro (Los Angeles)
« Reply #71 on: 03/20/2018 05:04 pm »
Core recovery just requires a couple cranes, a small work area with stand for the booster, and a cleared area large enough to lay the booster onto a truck.  There isn't really any indoor work.  They already have a refurbishment facility 15 miles away, not much point in building another one.

The documents clearly state "recovery operations" at the new site.

Online docmordrid

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6317
  • Michigan
  • Liked: 4199
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Starship Manufacturing Facility in San Pedro (Los Angeles)
« Reply #72 on: 03/20/2018 05:05 pm »
How does the size of the planned facility compare to Blue Origins new Florida factory?

The Blue Origin Florida factory is 750,000 square feet, so almost four times the size of the SpaceX San Pedro factory.

Volumewise, the difference would be less than 3x, since the Blue Origin factory max roof height appears to be 82 feet/25 meters while the San Pedro factory roof height is 105 feet/32 meters.

This comparison may be moot if the Florida BFR factory under negotiation is built and larger than San Pedro.

NSF link....

Quote
>
SpaceX is also considering building their own new facilities, although this will not be a launch complex but rather a factory to build their future BFR vehicle. The company is talking with NASA and Space Florida about obtaining land for the new factory, likely be located near or right next to Blue Originís existing New Glenn factory.
>
« Last Edit: 03/20/2018 05:07 pm by docmordrid »
DM

Online sanman

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5632
  • Liked: 1146
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Starship Manufacturing Facility in San Pedro (Los Angeles)
« Reply #73 on: 03/20/2018 05:54 pm »
Gee, right next to each other, huh? Just to facilitate poaching of each others' personnel?  ;)

More seriously, such co-location could help sustain larger talent pools in their vicinity.

Offline catdlr

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7064
  • Enthusiast since the Redstones
  • Marina del Rey, California, USA
  • Liked: 3707
  • Likes Given: 2974
Re: Starship Manufacturing Facility in San Pedro (Los Angeles)
« Reply #74 on: 03/20/2018 07:46 pm »
local newspaper article:

SpaceX may have big manufacturing plans for the Port of Los Angeles

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-spacex-port-20180319-story.html#nws=mcnewsletter
Tony De La Rosa

Offline rsdavis9

No over populated land flights for any BFR for ages.
Cities like Boston are freaking out and stoping Uber driverless car tests because one person got killed in Arizona.
Retrograde launch from vandemburg would give a sea approach to Canavral. BC is a bit trickier.

It's almost certainly cheaper to ship though Panama than to fly a BFR all the way around the world. Just the cost of methalox would probably pay the canal fees.

BFS (the top part) can do a paying launch from west coast and then land at Boca Chica or the cape.
With ELV best efficiency was the paradigm. The new paradigm is reusable, good enough, and commonality of design.
Same engines. Design once. Same vehicle. Design once. Reusable. Build once.

Offline envy887

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7993
  • Liked: 6534
  • Likes Given: 2928
Re: Starship Manufacturing Facility in San Pedro (Los Angeles)
« Reply #76 on: 03/21/2018 11:49 am »
No over populated land flights for any BFR for ages.
Cities like Boston are freaking out and stoping Uber driverless car tests because one person got killed in Arizona.
Retrograde launch from vandemburg would give a sea approach to Canavral. BC is a bit trickier.

It's almost certainly cheaper to ship though Panama than to fly a BFR all the way around the world. Just the cost of methalox would probably pay the canal fees.

BFS (the top part) can do a paying launch from west coast and then land at Boca Chica or the cape.

I doubt BFS can reach a useful orbit from the west coast by itself. If you mean a launch with a booster that remains at the west coast, then I agree that is certainly possible once they build a 12 mlbf pad at VAFB.

Offline Lar

  • Fan boy at large
  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13449
  • Saw Gemini live on TV
  • A large LEGO storage facility ... in Michigan
  • Liked: 11838
  • Likes Given: 11052
Re: Starship Manufacturing Facility in San Pedro (Los Angeles)
« Reply #77 on: 03/21/2018 12:35 pm »
Just as a note, relocating talent is non trivial. I was part of an acquired company that had its engineering talent in the Boston area (Route 128, "silicon east") and the acquiring company management said "we are relocating you all to Florida, it will be awesome"

Every single one of them quit.

Granted, we weren't trying to save humanity, we were just a cool software company, but you don't just up and move engineers.
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Offline speedevil

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4406
  • Fife
  • Liked: 2761
  • Likes Given: 3369
Re: Starship Manufacturing Facility in San Pedro (Los Angeles)
« Reply #78 on: 03/21/2018 05:06 pm »
I doubt BFS can reach a useful orbit from the west coast by itself. If you mean a launch with a booster that remains at the west coast, then I agree that is certainly possible once they build a 12 mlbf pad at VAFB.

Something I diddn't think of on the SSTO-BFS thread.
Even if it can only make orbit 'bare' - no recovery fuel when operated SSTO, if it can make a suitable orbit to rendevous with a BFR launched BFS, that could allow ferrying while never having the IIP over land.

Something like a launch to a 56 degree orbit, rendevous later with a tanker that may even be able to refill several such flights, and then land on the other coast.



Offline envy887

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7993
  • Liked: 6534
  • Likes Given: 2928
Re: Starship Manufacturing Facility in San Pedro (Los Angeles)
« Reply #79 on: 03/21/2018 05:21 pm »
I doubt BFS can reach a useful orbit from the west coast by itself. If you mean a launch with a booster that remains at the west coast, then I agree that is certainly possible once they build a 12 mlbf pad at VAFB.

Something I diddn't think of on the SSTO-BFS thread.
Even if it can only make orbit 'bare' - no recovery fuel when operated SSTO, if it can make a suitable orbit to rendevous with a BFR launched BFS, that could allow ferrying while never having the IIP over land.

Something like a launch to a 56 degree orbit, rendevous later with a tanker that may even be able to refill several such flights, and then land on the other coast.

Probably feasible, but not worthwhile unless it's launching a useful payload at the same time. Getting from LA to BC or the Cape is not appreciably harder than getting from LA to VAFB. Either way it's on a boat - just a little more time sailing.

However, SpaceX will need a high-inclination pad to support Starlink, either at VAFB or offshore somewhere. So shuttling between East and West probably isn't a problem for BFS.

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement SkyTale Software GmbH
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
1