Author Topic: Where will BFR be built?  (Read 208419 times)

Offline Nydoc

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Re: Where will BFR be built?
« Reply #260 on: 11/10/2017 06:16 pm »
https://www.portoflosangeles.org/Board/2017/November%202017/111617_Regular_Agenda_Item_I_Transmittal_4.pdf

I'm not sure what this tent would be for. Thoughts?

Page 27 of the Terminal Island Land Use Plan shows the area as "Not Used"
https://www.portoflosangeles.org/planning/Terminal_Island_Land_Use_Plan.pdf
« Last Edit: 12/22/2017 10:02 pm by gongora »

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: Where will BFR be built?
« Reply #261 on: 11/10/2017 07:47 pm »
Page 27 of the Terminal Island Land Use Plan shows the area as "Not Used"
https://www.portoflosangeles.org/planning/Terminal_Island_Land_Use_Plan.pdf

Isn't that the area marked 59, "NAVY RESERVE CENTER - FORMER SITE", a "short-term opportunity area"?

Offline Nydoc

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Re: Where will BFR be built?
« Reply #262 on: 11/10/2017 07:56 pm »
Page 27 of the Terminal Island Land Use Plan shows the area as "Not Used"
https://www.portoflosangeles.org/planning/Terminal_Island_Land_Use_Plan.pdf

Isn't that the area marked 59, "NAVY RESERVE CENTER - FORMER SITE", a "short-term opportunity area"?
You're right. I was misreading the numbers.

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: Where will BFR be built?
« Reply #263 on: 11/10/2017 08:33 pm »
Nice find.  Looks like a plot with just short of a million square feet near the water.  A nice plot for a rocket factory.

Offline meberbs

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Re: Where will BFR be built?
« Reply #264 on: 11/10/2017 08:51 pm »
The planning document has 3 options it discussed, and for some of them, that area is color coded "Maritime support (no berth)" It also has a text label in one case of "trucking support." Going back through some historical images on TerraServer, it looks like starting around 2015, the lot at that location has been full of shipping containers.

The recent images show that at sometime between May 2017 and July 2017, the containers were cleared out and it now appears to be a (lightly used) parking lot.

Offline Nydoc

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Re: Where will BFR be built?
« Reply #265 on: 11/12/2017 10:23 pm »
Quote
CDP No. 17-13 SpaceX - Storage Tent and Fencing at 801 S. Reeves Avenue on Terminal Island

CDP No.17-13 (Transmittal 4) allows for the erection of a 20,000-square-foot tent for storage and a 6-foot tall perimeter fence. A new Space Assignment No. 17-34 will be issued to SpaceX for use of this property as outlined in APP No. 170920-131.

The Environmental Management Division has completed an EA Exemption to assess the potential environmental impacts of the proposed dumpster enclosure.

The estimated project cost is $500,000 and will be paid by SpaceX.
https://www.portoflosangeles.org/Board/2017/November%202017/111617_Regular_Agenda_Item_I.pdf
https://www.portoflosangeles.org/Board/2017/November%202017/111617_Regular_Agenda_Item_I_Transmittal_2.pdf


Online catdlr

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Re: Where will BFR be built?
« Reply #266 on: 11/12/2017 11:01 pm »
The area in question, circled in red, from the above overhead map:
« Last Edit: 11/12/2017 11:02 pm by catdlr »
Tony De La Rosa

Offline Dave G

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Re: Where will BFR be built?
« Reply #267 on: 12/01/2017 01:55 pm »
Looking back at a transcript of how Gwynne answered this question:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jurvetson/37659376821
Quote
Where will the BFR be built?
We're looking at building a facility by the water in LA. We thought we'd build it in our factory in Hawthorne, but we priced transport to the harbor, and it came out to $2.5m per trip. It would require taking down stoplights, and just wouldn't be worth it. So we will build a new facility by the water. We will eventually also have a number of production sites by out launch sites.

I now notice that she used the phrase "by the water", as opposed to "by the ocean" or "at a port".

This got me to thinking, maybe SpaceX is building BFR along some river or estuary that leads to the ocean.

Offline D_Dom

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Re: Where will BFR be built?
« Reply #268 on: 12/01/2017 02:58 pm »
Quote from: catdlr
The area in question, circled in red, from the above overhead map:

Drive by everyday and have been watching that location as the tent is erected. Maybe I can snap a photo at lunchtime. I had no idea it was SpaceX putting it up.

Wonder what a "short term opportunity area" means...
Space is not merely a matter of life or death, it is considerably more important than that!

Offline Dave G

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Re: Where will BFR be built?
« Reply #269 on: 12/01/2017 05:14 pm »
Wonder what a "short term opportunity area" means...

If I remember correctly, someone up-thread said this would be used for storing previously flown Falcon 9 boosters.

Offline D_Dom

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Re: Where will BFR be built?
« Reply #270 on: 12/01/2017 10:08 pm »
I get that, mostly curious what the port planning commission means. Maybe a long term plan for this property that precludes permanent construction?

 Many thanks to all who provided links, interesting reading.

My buddy grabbed this picture from the opposite direction of the streetview image above. This metal skeleton went up yesterday, expect it will be completed soon. behind the wall is a building that had various tenants over the years, saw HVAC tech walking around when we drove by


« Last Edit: 12/01/2017 10:16 pm by D_Dom »
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Offline Nydoc

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Re: Where will BFR be built?
« Reply #271 on: 12/14/2017 04:21 pm »
Wonder what a "short term opportunity area" means...

If I remember correctly, someone up-thread said this would be used for storing previously flown Falcon 9 boosters.
I think you're thinking of the 35000 s.f. of land and 77000 s.f. of water that are being added to SpaceX's permit near berths 51 and 52.

Quote
Backqround: On January 7,2016, the Board approved RP 15-19 to SpaceX for the use
of 35,000 s.f. of land and 77,000 s.f. of water at Berths 51 and 52 along Miner Street in
San Pedro. RP 15-19 allowed for: berthing rights for the Marmac landing barge and
auxiliary vessels; construction of landside improvements including the installation of
rocket support pedestals on a concrete pad; and installation of temporary perimeter
fencing, an office trailer, a guard shack and portable restrooms. SpaceX's premises are
utilized to berth vessels that recover expended rockets and capsules from over 100
miles offshore and return the respective equipment for land based transportation to
various locations.
ln response to the Board's concern regarding insurance limits and coverage under selfinsurance,
the First Amendment to RP 15-19 increased insurance requirements to
provide superior insurance coverage, thereby reducing the Harbor Department's
financial risk exposure arising from SpaceX's operations.
The Second Amendment to RP 15-19 increased permit premises primarily at Berth 53
and adjusted compensation correspondingly. The additional areas provided SpaceX
with access to a wider area such that it can conduct its operations more safely and
efficiently, and also reduce the length of time that Miner Street is shut down, thereby
lessening the impact of SpaceX operations on neighboring tenants. A provision was
also added to allow the Harbor Department to be reimbursed for expenses incurred as a
result of the Tenant's operations such as Port Police fees (escort, street closures, etc.);
Construction & Maintenance costs (placement of k-rails, plumbing and electrical
services, etc.); Engineering fees (inspection fees, etc.); rental fees for use of additional
areas (staging for media, parking, etc.); and other related. costs.
SpaceX has conducted five rocket and capsule recoveries since 2016. On November
15, 2017, SpaceX submitted an application for additional premises in order to
accommodate the MA/ Mr. Steven, a 205-foot long vessel dedicated to recovering the
fairing portion of rockets which protect the spacecraft and reduce drag during flight.
No additional hazardous materials will be brought to the Port. The extended area will
allow a better layout for its operations and allow SpaceX to remove equipment on top of
their sea vans as much as possible, and better contain their equipment behind the
perimeter fencing, away from public view.
The proposed Third Amendment (Transmittal 1) to RP 15-19 modifies the permit
premises by adding a9,143 s.f. land parcel and a 25,500 s.f. submerged land parcel on
the south side of its current premises (Transmittal2), and modifying the compensation
accordingly, from $24,328.73 to $28,095.82 a month. ln anticipation of the vessel's
arrival in mid to late December 2018, SpaceX would like to take possession of the
additional premises by December 15, 2017.
Source: https://www.portoflosangeles.org/Board/2017/December%202017/121417_Regular_Agenda_Item_8.pdf
« Last Edit: 12/28/2017 04:00 pm by Nydoc »

Offline wannamoonbase

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Re: Where will BFR be built?
« Reply #272 on: 12/17/2017 03:00 pm »
Looking back at a transcript of how Gwynne answered this question:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jurvetson/37659376821
Quote
Where will the BFR be built?
We're looking at building a facility by the water in LA. We thought we'd build it in our factory in Hawthorne, but we priced transport to the harbor, and it came out to $2.5m per trip. It would require taking down stoplights, and just wouldn't be worth it. So we will build a new facility by the water. We will eventually also have a number of production sites by out launch sites.

I now notice that she used the phrase "by the water", as opposed to "by the ocean" or "at a port".

This got me to thinking, maybe SpaceX is building BFR along some river or estuary that leads to the ocean.

It got me thinking that the diameter of the BFR could grow.  It seemed the 9 meter diameter was driving by the existing Hawthorne facility.  If that constraint is removed, why not go back to 10 meters, shorten the booster and spaceship, give more room for the engines on the bottom and give yourself a potential growth path to stretch the vehicle over time.
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Offline Lar

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Re: Where will BFR be built?
« Reply #273 on: 12/17/2017 03:16 pm »
10 seems like such a minor change. if they've done some 9 meter tooling already I would expect they would not do that.
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Offline Dave G

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Re: Where will BFR be built?
« Reply #274 on: 12/17/2017 03:36 pm »
It got me thinking that the diameter of the BFR could grow.  It seemed the 9 meter diameter was driving by the existing Hawthorne facility.  If that constraint is removed, why not go back to 10 meters, shorten the booster and spaceship, give more room for the engines on the bottom and give yourself a potential growth path to stretch the vehicle over time.

I'm not sure it's sunk in yet, but Musk's presentation in September 2017 indicated a huge change for SpaceX. 

Before then, BFR was something in the vague future, yet to be designed, and yet to be funded.

That's all changed now.  Here's a quote from Elon's presentation:
http://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-mars-iac-2017-transcript-slides-2017-10/#-34
Quote
So we've already started building the system. The tooling for the main tanks has been ordered, the facility is being built. We will start construction of the first ship around the second quarter of next year, so in about six to nine months we should start building the first ship.

So it's clear the design has been finalized.  The second quarter of next year is now just 15 weeks away.

This is happening A LOT faster than many people think.
« Last Edit: 12/17/2017 03:36 pm by Dave G »

Offline philw1776

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Re: Where will BFR be built?
« Reply #275 on: 12/17/2017 03:39 pm »
Before IAC 2015 there were credible rumors of Elon ordering 15m tooling.  Then 2016 IAC saw 12m.  2017 IAC 9m.
In with those who think a bit wider than 9m s better.  31 engines are crowded at 9m.  Leave room for unanticipated future growth/changes.
But Elon likes his rockets slim.
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Offline Dave G

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Re: Where will BFR be built?
« Reply #276 on: 12/17/2017 03:52 pm »
Before IAC 2015 there were credible rumors of Elon ordering 15m tooling...

Rumors are rumors.  Much different than a direct statement from Elon during a major presentation.

Offline wannamoonbase

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Re: Where will BFR be built?
« Reply #277 on: 12/17/2017 04:26 pm »
It got me thinking that the diameter of the BFR could grow.  It seemed the 9 meter diameter was driving by the existing Hawthorne facility.  If that constraint is removed, why not go back to 10 meters, shorten the booster and spaceship, give more room for the engines on the bottom and give yourself a potential growth path to stretch the vehicle over time.

I'm not sure it's sunk in yet, but Musk's presentation in September 2017 indicated a huge change for SpaceX. 

Before then, BFR was something in the vague future, yet to be designed, and yet to be funded.

That's all changed now.  Here's a quote from Elon's presentation:
http://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-mars-iac-2017-transcript-slides-2017-10/#-34
Quote
So we've already started building the system. The tooling for the main tanks has been ordered, the facility is being built. We will start construction of the first ship around the second quarter of next year, so in about six to nine months we should start building the first ship.

So it's clear the design has been finalized.  The second quarter of next year is now just 15 weeks away.

This is happening A LOT faster than many people think.

Good points, and SpaceX doesn't have endless funds or time.  If they are starting soon they maybe they are going to start out in the height restricted Hawthorne facility.

There is so much more to go down the road regarding design, handling, launching etc.  Buildings and land are cheap compared to rockets, build for the optimum rocket.  But it's not my money.
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Offline Lar

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Re: Where will BFR be built?
« Reply #278 on: 12/17/2017 04:44 pm »
SpaceX have a history of Just In Time building and GSE mods so it's probably a combination of both... start in the right place, take their best guess for the initial building section size/width/door size, etc and iterate.
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Offline pb2000

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Re: Where will BFR be built?
« Reply #279 on: 12/17/2017 04:55 pm »
What if the primary purpose of the boring company is just for fill material so Elon can create a land reclamation company? After he's done creating space for the BFR factory, he can start on his offshore supervillain island lair.
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