Author Topic: Chinese Mars Mission  (Read 53849 times)

Offline savuporo

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Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #80 on: 04/03/2016 05:31 am »
Mars express is not a NASA mission, nor is the TGO, both of which you specified, so why is this a problem?
TGO carries a NASA payload, that is there partially for NASA's usage and purposes
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Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #81 on: 04/03/2016 12:09 pm »
Mars express is not a NASA mission, nor is the TGO, both of which you specified, so why is this a problem?
TGO carries a NASA payload, that is there partially for NASA's usage and purposes

Not that I can see, some participating scientists is about it. The instruments are primarily Belgian (1) Swiss (1) and Russian (2):

NOMAD – Nadir and Occultation for MArs Discovery
NOMAD combines three spectrometers, two infrared and one ultraviolet, to perform high-sensitivity orbital identification of atmospheric components, including methane and many other species, via both solar occultation and direct reflected-light nadir observations.
Principal Investigator: Ann Carine Vandaele, Belgian Institute for Space Aeronomy, Belgium
Co-Principal Investigator: José Lopez Moreno, Instituto de Astrofísica de Andalucía, Spain
Co-Principal Investigator: Giancarlo Bellucci, Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica, Italy
Co-Principal Investigator: Manish Patel, The Open University, United Kingdom
Participating countries: Belgium, Spain, Italy, United Kingdom, United States of America, Canada.

ACS – Atmospheric Chemistry Suite
This suite of three infrared instruments will help scientists to investigate the chemistry and structure of the Martian atmosphere. ACS will complement NOMAD by extending the coverage at infrared wavelengths, and by taking images of the Sun to better analyse the solar occultation data.
Principal Investigator: Oleg Korablev, Space Research Institute (IKI), Moscow, Russia

CaSSIS – Colour and Stereo Surface Imaging System
A high resolution camera (5 metres per pixel) capable of obtaining colour and stereo images over a wide swathe. CaSSIS will provide the geological and dynamical context for sources or sinks of trace gases detected by NOMAD and ACS.
Principal Investigator: Nicolas Thomas, University of Bern, Switzerland
Participating countries: Switzerland, Italy.

FREND – Fine Resolution Epithermal Neutron Detector
This neutron detector will map hydrogen on the surface down to a metre deep, revealing deposits of water-ice near the surface. FREND’s mapping of shallow subsurface water ice will be up to 10 times better than existing measurements.
Principal Investigator: Igor Mitrofanov, Space Research Institute (IKI), Moscow, Russia

http://exploration.esa.int/mars/48523-trace-gas-orbiter-instruments/
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline Kryten

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Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #82 on: 04/03/2016 12:12 pm »
Mars express is not a NASA mission, nor is the TGO, both of which you specified, so why is this a problem?
TGO carries a NASA payload, that is there partially for NASA's usage and purposes

Not that I can see, some participating scientists is about it. The instruments are primarily Belgian (1) Swiss (1) and Russian (2):
The NASA payload is the Electra radio, which is exactly what would be involved in use of TGO or Mars Express for relay from the Chinese lander.

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #83 on: 04/03/2016 08:29 pm »
Mars express is not a NASA mission, nor is the TGO, both of which you specified, so why is this a problem?
TGO carries a NASA payload, that is there partially for NASA's usage and purposes

Not that I can see, some participating scientists is about it. The instruments are primarily Belgian (1) Swiss (1) and Russian (2):
The NASA payload is the Electra radio, which is exactly what would be involved in use of TGO or Mars Express for relay from the Chinese lander.

That's a spacecraft operations system, not a payload.

However as TGO is using electra for surface comms, that would be a problem for using, given the current infantile US attitude regarding China, of course things might change.  They have four years to grow up.

Fortunately the Chinese orbiter should be carrying it's own relay.

"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline savuporo

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Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #84 on: 04/03/2016 08:38 pm »
Fortunately the Chinese orbiter should be carrying it's own relay.
Even for that I'm hoping they are adopting CCSDS proximity-1 link protocols and have ESA assistance for interop testing. The more coverage and redundancy the better for everyone
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Offline plutogno

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Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #85 on: 04/04/2016 04:24 pm »
Top space engineer on China's mission to Mars, the Moon and deep space exploration

http://gbtimes.com/china/top-space-engineer-chinas-mission-mars-moon-and-deep-space-exploration

Offline savuporo

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Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #86 on: 04/04/2016 05:02 pm »
That was a good interview. Not a lot of detailed answers, but airbag landing seems to be acknowledged: "For these reasons, a Mars landing will be more difficult, but we believe we have mastered the technical aspects, including large parachutes, reverse thrust engines and an airbag."
Also should dispel any notion that there is no space race going on, at least in Asia.
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Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #87 on: 04/04/2016 10:03 pm »
Also should dispel any notion that there is no space race going on, at least in Asia.

But it not the over-riding consideration
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline plutogno

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Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #88 on: 04/05/2016 10:29 am »
an engineer saying that he regrets that India went to Mars before China does not make a space race.
it's not as if the  government had invested to make sure that China went there first.
« Last Edit: 04/05/2016 10:55 am by plutogno »

Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #89 on: 04/05/2016 11:44 am »
an engineer saying that he regrets that India went to Mars before China does not make a space race.
it's not as if the  government had invested to make sure that China went there first.

Remember that it was only a Russian launch failure that prevented a Chinese Mars mission getting to Mars before India.

Until China declared its programmes I don't think that India had lunar or Mars exploration programmes.   And their pretend-piloted programme only appeared after Shenzhou.   So, China isn't racing anyone, but India is trying to race China.

Sorry to get off-topic!
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Offline vineethgk

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Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #90 on: 04/07/2016 07:34 am »
Well, beyond all the 'I-got-there-before-you-did' chest thumping, the 'Mangalyaan' (which is what I prefer to call it) certainly did one invaluable service - inspire a new generation of Indian youth to stay back in the country and build their dreams here. And yes, India needs that 'race' factor more than China does. For the Chinese, this might have been a small 'Sputnik' moment of sort, reminding them that their next-door neighbor is not too far behind. It would be exciting to see a friendly Sino-Indian 'race' to the Martian surface in 2020 !

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Online Pipcard

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Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #91 on: 04/15/2016 02:16 pm »
I like to look at space-related CONOPS diagrams, so I stumbled upon this concept to use many CZ-9 rockets for a human Mars mission.

I tried Google reverse image search and TinEye, but couldn't find it anywhere else.

edit: Page is currently dead. I have archived the Google cache.
« Last Edit: 04/16/2016 09:08 pm by Pipcard »

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #92 on: 04/17/2016 06:03 am »
I like to look at space-related CONOPS diagrams, so I stumbled upon this concept to use many CZ-9 rockets for a human Mars mission.

I tried Google reverse image search and TinEye, but couldn't find it anywhere else.

edit: Page is currently dead. I have archived the Google cache.

So how many launches?  It would appear to be a split mission, semi-direct architecture, probably chemical fuelled.  the "26 presumably refers to the time between the first and second window.  What does the "21" refer to?  It's too short to be from second window to arrival back at Earth.  It's a bit short even for time from the second window to the start of the return trip.  Too long though for the surface interval.  It note it is followed by "33", which is about right for a complete mission.
« Last Edit: 04/17/2016 06:54 am by Dalhousie »
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline Lsquirrel

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Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #93 on: 04/17/2016 06:41 am »
I like to look at space-related CONOPS diagrams, so I stumbled upon this concept to use many CZ-9 rockets for a human Mars mission.

I tried Google reverse image search and TinEye, but couldn't find it anywhere else.

edit: Page is currently dead. I have archived the Google cache.

It's a SAST proposal human mars mission,post on 《Aerospace Shanghai》2014 Issue 1
the propulsion modules use MMH/NTO, lead to so many HLLV launches


Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #94 on: 04/17/2016 06:41 am »
I think the first image is "26 months" and then "21 something and 33 months". The 33 months (2.75 years) could be the time for the complete journey to Mars and back to Earth.
« Last Edit: 04/17/2016 06:44 am by Steven Pietrobon »
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Offline Lsquirrel

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Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #95 on: 04/17/2016 06:56 am »
I like to look at space-related CONOPS diagrams, so I stumbled upon this concept to use many CZ-9 rockets for a human Mars mission.

I tried Google reverse image search and TinEye, but couldn't find it anywhere else.

edit: Page is currently dead. I have archived the Google cache.

So how many launches?  It would appear to be a split mission, semi-direct architecture, probably chemical fuelled.  the "26 presumably refers to the time between the first and second window.  What does the "21" refer to?  It's too short to be from second window to arrival back at Earth.  It's a bit short even for time from the second window to the start of the return trip.  Too long though for the surface interval.

Cargo Ship(货运飞船) :4 HLLV(LEO Capability 100 Tonnes) launch 4 propulsion modules + 1 CZ-5 launch mars land module(include mars surface habitats)
Crew Ship(载人飞船): 6 HLLV launch 6 propulsion modules + 1 CZ-5 launch DSH + 1 CZ-5 launch mars land module(include mars ascent vehicle and earth reentry vehicle)

the launches are 10 HLLV + 3 CZ-5

according to the paper, crew ship total flight time(earth launches&orbit assemble,tranfer to mars,landing,surface survey,ascent, return to earth&reentry) is 629 or 993 days/ 21 or 33 months
I don't think it's a Serious programme
« Last Edit: 04/17/2016 07:00 am by Lsquirrel »

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #96 on: 04/17/2016 07:51 am »
I like to look at space-related CONOPS diagrams, so I stumbled upon this concept to use many CZ-9 rockets for a human Mars mission.

I tried Google reverse image search and TinEye, but couldn't find it anywhere else.

edit: Page is currently dead. I have archived the Google cache.

So how many launches?  It would appear to be a split mission, semi-direct architecture, probably chemical fuelled.  the "26 presumably refers to the time between the first and second window.  What does the "21" refer to?  It's too short to be from second window to arrival back at Earth.  It's a bit short even for time from the second window to the start of the return trip.  Too long though for the surface interval.

Cargo Ship(货运飞船) :4 HLLV(LEO Capability 100 Tonnes) launch 4 propulsion modules + 1 CZ-5 launch mars land module(include mars surface habitats)
Crew Ship(载人飞船): 6 HLLV launch 6 propulsion modules + 1 CZ-5 launch DSH + 1 CZ-5 launch mars land module(include mars ascent vehicle and earth reentry vehicle)

the launches are 10 HLLV + 3 CZ-5

according to the paper, crew ship total flight time(earth launches&orbit assemble,tranfer to mars,landing,surface survey,ascent, return to earth&reentry) is 629 or 993 days/ 21 or 33 months
I don't think it's a Serious programme

Maybe not but it is an interesting first study.  About 1000 tonnes IMLO.  No mention of aerocapture or ISRU?  What about crew size?

The 21/33 month missions would be opposition/conjunction class options
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline Lsquirrel

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Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #97 on: 04/17/2016 09:10 am »
I like to look at space-related CONOPS diagrams, so I stumbled upon this concept to use many CZ-9 rockets for a human Mars mission.

I tried Google reverse image search and TinEye, but couldn't find it anywhere else.

edit: Page is currently dead. I have archived the Google cache.

So how many launches?  It would appear to be a split mission, semi-direct architecture, probably chemical fuelled.  the "26 presumably refers to the time between the first and second window.  What does the "21" refer to?  It's too short to be from second window to arrival back at Earth.  It's a bit short even for time from the second window to the start of the return trip.  Too long though for the surface interval.

Cargo Ship(货运飞船) :4 HLLV(LEO Capability 100 Tonnes) launch 4 propulsion modules + 1 CZ-5 launch mars land module(include mars surface habitats)
Crew Ship(载人飞船): 6 HLLV launch 6 propulsion modules + 1 CZ-5 launch DSH + 1 CZ-5 launch mars land module(include mars ascent vehicle and earth reentry vehicle)

the launches are 10 HLLV + 3 CZ-5

according to the paper, crew ship total flight time(earth launches&orbit assemble,tranfer to mars,landing,surface survey,ascent, return to earth&reentry) is 629 or 993 days/ 21 or 33 months
I don't think it's a Serious programme

Maybe not but it is an interesting first study.  About 1000 tonnes IMLO.  No mention of aerocapture or ISRU?  What about crew size?

The 21/33 month missions would be opposition/conjunction class options

it uses Aerocapture, MAV uses MMH/NTO,so there is not use ISRU
mars surface hab has a height of 6m and diameter of 6m, hab volume is 20m3.deep space is 8m long and 4m diameter, hab volume is 50m3

Offline savuporo

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Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #98 on: 04/20/2016 03:13 am »
it uses Aerocapture, MAV uses MMH/NTO,so there is not use ISRU
mars surface hab has a height of 6m and diameter of 6m, hab volume is 20m3.deep space is 8m long and 4m diameter, hab volume is 50m3
IMO a great baseline to start with. Take the worst case, no <insert miracle happens here> architecture, figure out if you gonna commit to this and then you can only improve from there. Lobbing 1000 tons to LEO isnt actually unrealistic, if everything you put up has long loiter capability and you have enough pads.
At current launch rate, with mostly CZ-3 flying they are probably putting around 100 tons to orbit a year anyway.
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Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #99 on: 04/20/2016 04:30 am »

it uses Aerocapture, MAV uses MMH/NTO,so there is not use ISRU
mars surface hab has a height of 6m and diameter of 6m, hab volume is 20m3.deep space is 8m long and 4m diameter, hab volume is 50m3

Those are extremely small volumes given the dimensions and barely enough even for a minimum crew.  In particular the surface habitat volume would support only a short stay mission.  Of course, if both Mars landers have similar volumes that improves matters somewhat, but not by much
« Last Edit: 04/20/2016 04:32 am by Dalhousie »
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

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