Author Topic: Chinese Mars Mission  (Read 53856 times)

Offline plutogno

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 889
  • Toulouse, France and Milan, Italy
  • Liked: 234
  • Likes Given: 34
Chinese Mars Mission
« on: 02/04/2012 09:42 am »
I haven't seen these linked on this forum, although they have been around for some time: two presentations at the 7th UK - China Workshop on Space Science and Technology
http://www.stfc.ac.uk/RALSpace/resources/PDF/WANGXiaoyong_3_ChineseMarsProbes.pdf
http://www.stfc.ac.uk/RALSpace/resources/PDF/HUZhaohui-MarsPenetrator-YuanYong.pdf

« Last Edit: 07/15/2019 09:13 pm by gongora »

Offline go4mars

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3748
  • Earth
  • Liked: 158
  • Likes Given: 3463
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #1 on: 02/07/2012 08:16 pm »
"Ye Peijian, chief scientist of deep space exploration at the China Academy of Space Technology, told China Daily last year that China has developed the ability to closely monitor the Red Planet. This is due to a deep space network under construction, progress in developing the necessary launch vehicle and two lunar satellites."

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2012/01/20/russia-china-joint-mars-exploration-fails.html

I wonder what he means by "closely monitor the Red Planet"...
Elasmotherium; hurlyburly Doggerlandic Jentilak steeds insouciantly gallop in viridescent taiga, eluding deluginal Burckle's abyssal excavation.

Offline spectre9

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2403
  • Australia
  • Liked: 42
  • Likes Given: 68
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #2 on: 02/09/2012 01:03 am »
Seems like a strange thing to say.

Scientific observation or do they just want to watch what Curiosity is doing?  :P

Offline Steven Pietrobon

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32466
  • Adelaide, Australia
    • Steven Pietrobon's Space Archive
  • Liked: 21046
  • Likes Given: 3592
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #3 on: 02/10/2012 08:43 am »
I believe what they mean by "closely monitor" is deep space communications with Chinese Mars probes.
« Last Edit: 02/10/2012 08:43 am by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline plutogno

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 889
  • Toulouse, France and Milan, Italy
  • Liked: 234
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #4 on: 03/28/2012 08:07 pm »
a Chinese Journal of Space Sciences paper on Mars airplanes (which are completely out of fashion in the US and Europe) http://www.cjss.ac.cn/qikan/epaper/zhaiyao.asp?bsid=16272

Offline go4mars

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3748
  • Earth
  • Liked: 158
  • Likes Given: 3463
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #5 on: 05/02/2012 02:54 am »
I believe what they mean by "closely monitor" is deep space communications with Chinese Mars probes.
Do we know much about what these Chinese Mars probes are capable of observing/communicating?
Elasmotherium; hurlyburly Doggerlandic Jentilak steeds insouciantly gallop in viridescent taiga, eluding deluginal Burckle's abyssal excavation.

Offline plutogno

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 889
  • Toulouse, France and Milan, Italy
  • Liked: 234
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #6 on: 10/10/2012 06:09 pm »
China considers more Mars probes before 2030
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2012-10/10/c_123806897.htm

Offline plutogno

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 889
  • Toulouse, France and Milan, Italy
  • Liked: 234
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #7 on: 12/17/2013 04:49 pm »
I don't remember where I found these, but well... looks familiar, right?
a translation of the panel would be welcome.

Offline luhai167

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 159
  • Liked: 85
  • Likes Given: 6
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #8 on: 12/19/2013 08:17 am »
I don't remember where I found these, but well... looks familiar, right?
a translation of the panel would be welcome.

The panel just about about technology testing etc. Probably a technology demonstrator for possible mars landing.

Offline MadCow

  • Member
  • Posts: 14
  • Oxford, UK
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #9 on: 12/19/2013 09:15 am »
I don't remember where I found these, but well... looks familiar, right?
a translation of the panel would be welcome.

The board reads:

"Mars landing technique

Mars omni-directional cushion landing airbag as the main object of study, mastered the airbag cushion landing system buffering rules and principles of engineering design, developed prototype of soft landing vehicle with cushion airbag, and conducted demonstration tests."

Offline savuporo

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5152
  • Liked: 1000
  • Likes Given: 342
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #10 on: 12/19/2013 07:07 pm »
Mars omni-directional cushion landing airbag as the main object of study, mastered the airbag cushion landing system buffering rules and principles of engineering design, developed prototype of soft landing vehicle with cushion airbag, and conducted demonstration tests."

I hope they come to their senses and recognize quickly that this was a technological dead end. Invest in propulsive precision landing instead that they JUST showed off on the moon.
Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline JulesVerneATV

  • Regular
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 156
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 4
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #11 on: 12/20/2013 10:05 pm »
Hi guys great coverage as usual, I got wonderful following your posts on China's asteroid encounter and its Moon lander. The planetary society's Emily Lakdawalla was following reports from Chinese tv :
" A reporter asked about Mars exploration. Again, a very interesting response, from Wu Weiren. He talked about how India had sent an orbiter to the Moon, an orbiter that failed to achieve its design lifetime of two years in orbit. They have launched a spacecraft to Mars, he said, but if I understand the translations correctly he seemed to be expressing reservations that they would be able to survive the long trip, based upon their past performance: "the future is uncertain." By contrast, he said, China's approach is "comprehensive," systematic, methodical, "every step laying a solid foundation for the next step." India, in contrast, is "leaping, mainly wanting to show strength." Perhaps, he implies, they are overreaching. "We are not competing with them, although they may want to compete with us; the mentality is not the same." I must admit, if I were Indian, I'd be a little affronted by these words! But the points he makes are fair. Wu goes on to say that China already established the technological capability to explore Mars with the success of Chang'e 1 and 2; it would be "easy." It's simply not their goal at present. A strong statement. [15:17]"
http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-lakdawalla/2013/12172045-change-3-update.html

So they admit Mars may be their final goal but they are not rushing to get there yet

Offline plutogno

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 889
  • Toulouse, France and Milan, Italy
  • Liked: 234
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #12 on: 12/21/2013 07:30 am »
my impression is that they are performing mission studies but that the government itself still has not given the go ahead to any of them

Offline plutogno

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 889
  • Toulouse, France and Milan, Italy
  • Liked: 234
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #13 on: 03/01/2014 08:02 am »
yet another news release on the topic: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-03/01/c_133151929.htm

Quote
"But the time to go [to Mars] will depend on the country's budget and decision,"

Offline Satori

  • Moderator
  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14019
  • Campo do Gerês - Portugal
  • Liked: 1601
  • Likes Given: 926
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #14 on: 03/06/2015 06:46 pm »

Offline plutogno

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 889
  • Toulouse, France and Milan, Italy
  • Liked: 234
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #15 on: 11/02/2015 01:49 pm »
from Xinhua (in Chinese), a model of the Chinese Mars probe exhibited in China
http://news.xinhuanet.com/photo/2015-11/02/c_128385979.htm

Offline Dalhousie

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2637
  • Liked: 658
  • Likes Given: 909
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #16 on: 11/02/2015 10:48 pm »
from Xinhua (in Chinese), a model of the Chinese Mars probe exhibited in China
http://news.xinhuanet.com/photo/2015-11/02/c_128385979.htm

Beagle 2 sized lander?
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline Lsquirrel

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 111
  • Liked: 65
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #17 on: 11/03/2015 11:24 am »
from Xinhua (in Chinese), a model of the Chinese Mars probe exhibited in China
http://news.xinhuanet.com/photo/2015-11/02/c_128385979.htm

Beagle 2 sized lander?

Bigger Viking, with a MER sized Rover

Offline Dalhousie

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2637
  • Liked: 658
  • Likes Given: 909
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #18 on: 11/03/2015 09:28 pm »
from Xinhua (in Chinese), a model of the Chinese Mars probe exhibited in China
http://news.xinhuanet.com/photo/2015-11/02/c_128385979.htm

Beagle 2 sized lander?

Bigger Viking, with a MER sized Rover

That seems unlikely if that is a full scale mockup, scaling from the people in the photo.  Or is it a scale model?
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline savuporo

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5152
  • Liked: 1000
  • Likes Given: 342
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #19 on: 11/03/2015 10:13 pm »
A one-third scale model according to gbtimes
http://gbtimes.com/china/chinas-2020-mars-probe-unveiled
Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline Dalhousie

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2637
  • Liked: 658
  • Likes Given: 909
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #20 on: 11/04/2015 12:52 am »
A one-third scale model according to gbtimes
http://gbtimes.com/china/chinas-2020-mars-probe-unveiled

Thanks!

Eyeball scaling suggests a heat shield diameter of about 3 m, which as suggested is Viking sized.  MER/Pathfinder/Phoenix were 2.65 m
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline plutogno

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 889
  • Toulouse, France and Milan, Italy
  • Liked: 234
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #21 on: 11/08/2015 04:30 pm »
I have been reading this paper from this year's IAC
http://www.iafastro.net/iac/paper/id/31372/summary/
it confirms that the 2020 mission will include an orbiter and entry module carrying a MER-class rover, The stack will be launched by a CZ-5 and reach Mars 10 months later. The orbiter will enter a 600 x 100,000 km orbit, while the rover will use aerodynamic braking, parachutes and thrusters to land.
The stack will mass 2,350 kg at launch including a 110 kg payload. The rover should weigh about 300 kg.
In 2028 or 2031 China will then launch a sample return mission reusing CE-5 technology and including a 2,500 kg lander and ascent vehicle and a 5,000 kg orbiter and "returner", carrying a CE-5-like subscale Shenzhou reentry capsule.

Offline Phillip Clark

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2617
  • Hastings, England
  • Liked: 555
  • Likes Given: 1078
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #22 on: 11/08/2015 04:57 pm »
In 2028 or 2031 China will then launch a sample return mission reusing CE-5 technology and including a 2,500 kg lander and ascent vehicle and a 5,000 kg orbiter and "returner", carrying a CE-5-like subscale Shenzhou reentry capsule.

This could confirm earlier speculation that the over-complex Cheng-E 5 mission profile is a dummy-run for a mars sample-return mission.
I've always been crazy but it's kept me from going insane - WJ.

Offline redliox

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2403
  • Arizona USA
  • Liked: 612
  • Likes Given: 91
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #23 on: 11/08/2015 05:18 pm »
So China's stepping up its space game. If so it'll be interesting to see what exactly they land on Mars. I'd say that'd be judge of their space capability.
"Let the trails lead where they may, I will follow."
-Tigatron

Offline Dalhousie

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2637
  • Liked: 658
  • Likes Given: 909
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #24 on: 11/09/2015 01:16 am »
In 2028 or 2031 China will then launch a sample return mission reusing CE-5 technology and including a 2,500 kg lander and ascent vehicle and a 5,000 kg orbiter and "returner", carrying a CE-5-like subscale Shenzhou reentry capsule.

This could confirm earlier speculation that the over-complex Cheng-E 5 mission profile is a dummy-run for a mars sample-return mission.

Rather than seeing CE-5 as "over complex" it is probably more helpful to see it as a highly capable lunar sample return mission that also builds capability for Mars sample return.
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline Steven Pietrobon

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32466
  • Adelaide, Australia
    • Steven Pietrobon's Space Archive
  • Liked: 21046
  • Likes Given: 3592
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #25 on: 11/09/2015 04:23 am »
In 2028 or 2031 China will then launch a sample return mission reusing CE-5 technology and including a 2,500 kg lander and ascent vehicle and a 5,000 kg orbiter and "returner", carrying a CE-5-like subscale Shenzhou reentry capsule.

That's 7.5 t to Mars, over three times that of the first mission. I'm wondering if this is going to be launched on a new large launch vehicle, or will Earth orbit rendezvous be used.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline plutogno

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 889
  • Toulouse, France and Milan, Italy
  • Liked: 234
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #26 on: 11/09/2015 05:28 am »
I'm wondering if this is going to be launched on a new large launch vehicle, or will Earth orbit rendezvous be used.

I think it will be launched in two separate launches. there is no need to launch it in one piece

Offline Dalhousie

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2637
  • Liked: 658
  • Likes Given: 909
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #27 on: 11/10/2015 12:24 am »
In 2028 or 2031 China will then launch a sample return mission reusing CE-5 technology and including a 2,500 kg lander and ascent vehicle and a 5,000 kg orbiter and "returner", carrying a CE-5-like subscale Shenzhou reentry capsule.

That's 7.5 t to Mars, over three times that of the first mission. I'm wondering if this is going to be launched on a new large launch vehicle, or will Earth orbit rendezvous be used.

LM-5 should be able to launch it in one piece
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline Phillip Clark

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2617
  • Hastings, England
  • Liked: 555
  • Likes Given: 1078
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #28 on: 11/10/2015 01:13 am »
In 2028 or 2031 China will then launch a sample return mission reusing CE-5 technology and including a 2,500 kg lander and ascent vehicle and a 5,000 kg orbiter and "returner", carrying a CE-5-like subscale Shenzhou reentry capsule.
That's 7.5 t to Mars, over three times that of the first mission. I'm wondering if this is going to be launched on a new large launch vehicle, or will Earth orbit rendezvous be used.
LM-5 should be able to launch it in one piece

The delta-vs for a Mars sample return are much larger than for the lunar mission, thus the heavier launch mass.
I've always been crazy but it's kept me from going insane - WJ.

Offline baldusi

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8351
  • Buenos Aires, Argentina
  • Liked: 2530
  • Likes Given: 8042
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #29 on: 11/10/2015 03:37 pm »
The delta-vs for a Mars sample return are much larger than for the lunar mission, thus the heavier launch mass.
TLI is around -1.8km²/s² and TMI is 13km²/s² for a good window (15 bad on). A Delta IV Heavy loses 25% of performance, an Atlas V 401 loses 30% and a Falcon 9 loses 40% (the kerolox upper stage is not optimal for high energy). I would expect something 33% or so for the LM-5B. Since GTO (1,500m/s) is not that different, and the LM-5B does 14tonnes to GTO, some 9 tonnes to TMI would not be impossible. And 7.5 tonnes to TMI would seem possible with margin (I would guess 8 to 8.5 to TMI).

Offline plutogno

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 889
  • Toulouse, France and Milan, Italy
  • Liked: 234
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #30 on: 11/10/2015 04:28 pm »
the paper says:

Quote
theCZ-5 launch vehicle can launch Mars exploration payload about 5000kg

Offline baldusi

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8351
  • Buenos Aires, Argentina
  • Liked: 2530
  • Likes Given: 8042
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #31 on: 11/10/2015 06:18 pm »
the paper says:

Quote
theCZ-5 launch vehicle can launch Mars exploration payload about 5000kg
Could you help me find the paper? I find 5 tonnes to TMI too low if the 14 tonnes to GTO are to be believed. It is difficult to measure with respect to LEO since that uses the LM-5A without the hydrogen third stage.

Offline Dalhousie

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2637
  • Liked: 658
  • Likes Given: 909
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #32 on: 11/10/2015 09:30 pm »
the paper says:

Quote
theCZ-5 launch vehicle can launch Mars exploration payload about 5000kg

If they used LOX-Kerosene for the upper stage then yes, but the LM-5 will have a LOX-LH2 upper stage for GTO missions.  I don't know any reason to suggest they would revert to LOX-Kerosene for planetary missions.  Especially as all four missions to date in the Chang'e program have used LOX-LH2 upper stages.
« Last Edit: 11/26/2015 03:20 am by Dalhousie »
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline Lsquirrel

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 111
  • Liked: 65
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #33 on: 11/11/2015 11:30 am »
the paper says:

Quote
theCZ-5 launch vehicle can launch Mars exploration payload about 5000kg
Could you help me find the paper? I find 5 tonnes to TMI too low if the 14 tonnes to GTO are to be believed. It is difficult to measure with respect to LEO since that uses the LM-5A without the hydrogen third stage.

the papers:
but it isn't official, the writers are from NUAA, not CALT or CAST

Offline Dalhousie

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2637
  • Liked: 658
  • Likes Given: 909
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #34 on: 02/22/2016 09:39 am »
"China is racing to make the 2020 launch window to Mars"

http://gbtimes.com/china/china-racing-make-2020-launch-window-mars

Orbiter appears to carry a MARSIS-type radar for ionospheric and crustal studies, radiation detectors, and spectrometers optimised for methane.

The rover will carry a Yutu-like GPR, and radiation detectors and possibly international instruments
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline plutogno

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 889
  • Toulouse, France and Milan, Italy
  • Liked: 234
  • Likes Given: 34

Offline Infinitesky

  • Member
  • Posts: 29
  • Liked: 20
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #36 on: 03/19/2016 01:35 pm »
This is a new design(2016) for the first Mars exploration mission in China, unfortunately, the new video is not yet open to the public.
You can see the difference between the new design and the old one.



old design(2014):

















Video links for the old design(2014):
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XODI0OTQ1NDY0.html
(In the end of this video)

Offline Star One

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13346
  • UK
  • Liked: 3672
  • Likes Given: 220
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #37 on: 03/19/2016 02:24 pm »
That's quite a radical overhaul in design over just two years.

Offline Infinitesky

  • Member
  • Posts: 29
  • Liked: 20
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #38 on: 03/19/2016 03:10 pm »
That's quite a radical overhaul in design over just two years.
At first, Mars mission was not approved until a few days ago.
So in the early pre-research, change is normal (I think the rover just looks like be amplified).
The new design film was shown to the government on 19th January and named as "Explore&Start".
After that, it was officially confirmed during the two sessions(NPC &CPPCC).
« Last Edit: 03/19/2016 03:23 pm by Infinitesky »

Offline plutogno

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 889
  • Toulouse, France and Milan, Italy
  • Liked: 234
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #39 on: 03/19/2016 03:30 pm »
apparently there are also two competing designs, one from SAST and one from CAST. rumors say that the CAST proposal was the winning one

Offline Infinitesky

  • Member
  • Posts: 29
  • Liked: 20
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #40 on: 03/19/2016 04:17 pm »
apparently there are also two competing designs, one from SAST and one from CAST. rumors say that the CAST proposal was the winning one
Even whether SAST or CAST have had more than one design solution.

CAST (2011)


CAST (2014)



CAST (2016)


SAST(YH-1 modified version)


SAST (2013)



SAST (2015)







I personally think that the design of SAST is more ugly, SAST design was first improved from the YH-1(China's first Mars probe, failed with Russian rocket in 2011), and now it is closer to the design of the CAST, lander from experimental small EDL into a large EDL with a rover.
« Last Edit: 03/19/2016 04:25 pm by Infinitesky »

Offline Star One

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13346
  • UK
  • Liked: 3672
  • Likes Given: 220
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #41 on: 03/19/2016 07:05 pm »

That's quite a radical overhaul in design over just two years.
At first, Mars mission was not approved until a few days ago.
So in the early pre-research, change is normal (I think the rover just looks like be amplified).
The new design film was shown to the government on 19th January and named as "Explore&Start".
After that, it was officially confirmed during the two sessions(NPC &CPPCC).

Thanks for that explanation.

Offline Infinitesky

  • Member
  • Posts: 29
  • Liked: 20
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #42 on: 03/20/2016 04:10 am »
The new article from Xinhua news agency, I simply translate.
compared to the Jade Rabbit(Yutu):
The area of the solar panels on the Mars rover will be much larger (the same area of the solar energy is only 40% of the moon's surface).
When the sandstorm comes, it will sleep (when sandstorm occurs, because of the sharp decline in Mars rover receiving of solar light energy, aerospace experts think must design a "sleep" mode for the rover)
The body is stronger (the gravity on the surface of Mars is heavier than the moon).
More intelligent (due to the delay of communication between Earth and Mars, a lot of tasks must be decided by itself).
In general,it is close to the "Spirit" and "Opportunity" in the volume, weight, and technology level.Using solar power, rather than the "Curiosity" of the nuclear battery.
The article also uses nearly half of the length to explain why we should go to Mars and do other deep space exploration, which shows that there are still doubts and resistance in the ordinary people.

http://dy.qq.com/article.htm?id=20160317A06R3800
« Last Edit: 03/20/2016 02:25 pm by Infinitesky »

Offline the_other_Doug

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3011
  • Minneapolis, MN
  • Liked: 2187
  • Likes Given: 4624
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #43 on: 03/20/2016 01:33 pm »
Fascinating that the back-and-forth translation morphs the name of the MER "Spirit" into "Courage"...  :)
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Offline Infinitesky

  • Member
  • Posts: 29
  • Liked: 20
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #44 on: 03/20/2016 02:21 pm »
Fascinating that the back-and-forth translation morphs the name of the MER "Spirit" into "Courage"...  :)
I'm sorry I forgot. I'll correct it. ;D

Offline Nordren

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 130
  • Finland
  • Liked: 62
  • Likes Given: 109
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #45 on: 03/21/2016 10:50 am »
Xinhua has now translated that piece with Ye Peijian and Jia Yang into English: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-03/21/c_135209176.htm

"Unlike the lunar lander of the Chang'e-3 probe, the Mars lander will carry a gasbag, a parachute and reverse thrust engines, which will together secure a safe landing, according to experts from CAST."

"The Mars rover should be able to sense the environment, plan its route, conduct scientific exploration and detect faults autonomously. It should be a mobile intelligence."

Offline Infinitesky

  • Member
  • Posts: 29
  • Liked: 20
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #46 on: 03/24/2016 12:32 am »
The probe will be in an elliptical orbit and the rover's landing position is not selected.

Offline Dalhousie

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2637
  • Liked: 658
  • Likes Given: 909
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #47 on: 03/24/2016 12:54 am »
The probe will be in an elliptical orbit and the rover's landing position is not selected.

Very Viking like in operation.  Will be lander be released prior to or after MOI?

For a start they could do worse then look at the MER, MSL, ExoMars, and 2020 mission landing site proposals, many of those not selected are still very interesting sites
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline Infinitesky

  • Member
  • Posts: 29
  • Liked: 20
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #48 on: 03/24/2016 03:21 am »
The probe will be in an elliptical orbit and the rover's landing position is not selected.

Very Viking like in operation.  Will be lander be released prior to or after MOI?

For a start they could do worse then look at the MER, MSL, ExoMars, and 2020 mission landing site proposals, many of those not selected are still very interesting sites
I guess before that, you can refer to those pictures released before.
Otherwise it will consume more fuel to change the orbit, because the total quality of probe and lander will reach more than 5 tons.
In fact I think it is risky to launch the probe and the lander at the same time in the first mission.
Because there is even no high resolution Mars map available for landing(Unlike the lunar exploration project).
But there is no choice, they must achieve more goals in a limited budget(In 2009, they had hoped to launch a probe in 2013 with LM3B, but the proposal has not been passed).
Perhaps they will learn more from the experience of MER, MSL, and ExoMars.
« Last Edit: 03/24/2016 03:27 am by Infinitesky »

Offline Dalhousie

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2637
  • Liked: 658
  • Likes Given: 909
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #49 on: 03/24/2016 04:37 am »
The probe will be in an elliptical orbit and the rover's landing position is not selected.

Very Viking like in operation.  Will be lander be released prior to or after MOI?

For a start they could do worse then look at the MER, MSL, ExoMars, and 2020 mission landing site proposals, many of those not selected are still very interesting sites
I guess before that, you can refer to those pictures released before.
Otherwise it will consume more fuel to change the orbit, because the total quality of probe and lander will reach more than 5 tons.

Which is why Viking was so massive of course.

Quote
In fact I think it is risky to launch the probe and the lander at the same time in the first mission.
Because there is even no high resolution Mars map available for landing(Unlike the lunar exploration project).
But there is no choice, they must achieve more goals in a limited budget(In 2009, they had hoped to launch a probe in 2013 with LM3B, but the proposal has not been passed).
Perhaps they will learn more from the experience of MER, MSL, and ExoMars.

Image coverage of Mars is very good. Even ignoring the low resolution stuff (TES, THEMIS, Viking, Mariner 9 MOC and HiRISE context images),we have near global HRSC coverage (~10 m), plus about a decade each of MOC (1-4 m) and HiRISE (30-30 cm) imagery of a great many specific targets.  Something like 70 landing sites were proposed for the MPL/MER/Phoenix/MSL/ExoMars 2016/ExoMars 2018/Insight/2020 missions, each with extensive MOC and HiRISE coverage. Many landing sites that miss out one one mission get recycled for later ones. Melas Chasma was considered for both MER, MSL, and now 2020, for example. 

Of course the engineering and trajectory characteristics of the Chinese lander might rule out many of these, but may also open up some new possibilities.  Mission planners may of course want to make their own selection from first principles.  There are many areas with quite extensive MOC and HiRISE coverage that have yet to be considered as landing sites.
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline plutogno

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 889
  • Toulouse, France and Milan, Italy
  • Liked: 234
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #50 on: 03/24/2016 05:04 am »

Very Viking like in operation.  Will be lander be released prior to or after MOI?
I guess before that, you can refer to those pictures released before.

I remember seeing a few references (conference papers, mostly) where the lander would be released Viking-like after MOI

Offline Dalhousie

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2637
  • Liked: 658
  • Likes Given: 909
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #51 on: 03/24/2016 05:17 am »

Very Viking like in operation.  Will be lander be released prior to or after MOI?
I guess before that, you can refer to those pictures released before.

I remember seeing a few references (conference papers, mostly) where the lander would be released Viking-like after MOI

Do we know if NASA/JPL would accept HiWISH image requests from Chinese researchers?

if not, and they decide to go somewhere new, then maybe it would make sense to release the lander after MOI and acquisition of some high resolution images with an onboard (MOC level) camera.  Do we know yet whether the orbiter will carry a camera of such resolution?

But IMHO there would have to be some compelling reason do do this, rather than choosing from the abundance of interesting sites already delineated.  Even restricting ourselves to rover sites, more than 50 have been reviewed.
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline notsorandom

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1740
  • Ohio
  • Liked: 438
  • Likes Given: 91
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #52 on: 03/24/2016 04:41 pm »

Very Viking like in operation.  Will be lander be released prior to or after MOI?
I guess before that, you can refer to those pictures released before.

I remember seeing a few references (conference papers, mostly) where the lander would be released Viking-like after MOI

Do we know if NASA/JPL would accept HiWISH image requests from Chinese researchers?

if not, and they decide to go somewhere new, then maybe it would make sense to release the lander after MOI and acquisition of some high resolution images with an onboard (MOC level) camera.  Do we know yet whether the orbiter will carry a camera of such resolution?

But IMHO there would have to be some compelling reason do do this, rather than choosing from the abundance of interesting sites already delineated.  Even restricting ourselves to rover sites, more than 50 have been reviewed.
They are not going to be able to get imagery with a high enough spatial resolution to retire all the risk of hazards at a landing site. Only a sensor like HiRISE can resolve those objects. The second best sensor to be orbited around Mars was the Mars Orbiter Camera on MGS. It could resolve 1.4 meters but that wasn't good enough to spot smaller rocks which would be a hazard. Indeed Mars Phoenix was re-targeted when HiRISE showed an unacceptable rock count that MOC missed at its initially preferred landing site.

There are two reason I don't think they will get that HiRISE equivalent imagery. First is that HiRISE is a big sensor with an aperture of 50 cm and a mass of 64.2 kg. I'm not seeing an instrument that size on any of the notional models or pictures of the Chinese orbiter. Secondly the note about the orbit being elliptical would preclude the probe from being at an altitude conducive to mapping. Even if HiRISE were on this orbiter it would spend most of the time too far away from the martian surface to gather high resolution imagery.

You brought up the landing sites investigated for previous US landing missions. These areas have been extensively mapped at high resolution and those images are on the freely accessible Planetary Data Server. There are two reasons that these areas were not selected, they were dangerous to land in or they were not as interesting scientifically. The Chinese have been operating their exploration program more as an engineering test program than a scientific one. A safe but less interesting site may be seen as just fine for their first lander.

Offline Dalhousie

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2637
  • Liked: 658
  • Likes Given: 909
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #53 on: 03/24/2016 08:34 pm »

They are not going to be able to get imagery with a high enough spatial resolution to retire all the risk of hazards at a landing site. Only a sensor like HiRISE can resolve those objects. The second best sensor to be orbited around Mars was the Mars Orbiter Camera on MGS. It could resolve 1.4 meters but that wasn't good enough to spot smaller rocks which would be a hazard. Indeed Mars Phoenix was re-targeted when HiRISE showed an unacceptable rock count that MOC missed at its initially preferred landing site.

While the higher the resolution the better, you don't need HiRISE. The Vikings and Pathfinder landing sites were chosen without any high resolution imagery. The MERs were chosen with MOC.  There are other data that can be used to minimise risk. Thermal intertia, radar scatterometry and polarimetry.  All publically accessible data, as you correctly point out.  But even if you want only HiRise documented sites there are a huge range of these to choose from.

Quote
There are two reason I don't think they will get that HiRISE equivalent imagery. First is that HiRISE is a big sensor with an aperture of 50 cm and a mass of 64.2 kg. I'm not seeing an instrument that size on any of the notional models or pictures of the Chinese orbiter. Secondly the note about the orbit being elliptical would preclude the probe from being at an altitude conducive to mapping. Even if HiRISE were on this orbiter it would spend most of the time too far away from the martian surface to gather high resolution imagery.

I think you are probably right on this.

Quote
You brought up the landing sites investigated for previous US landing missions. These areas have been extensively mapped at high resolution and those images are on the freely accessible Planetary Data Server. There are two reasons that these areas were not selected, they were dangerous to land in or they were not as interesting scientifically.
Quote

It's not as simple as that.  Some sites were indeed dropped because they were deemed too risky at the time.  Others because they were considered less interesting.  However a great many excellent sites were dropped for really trivial reasons.  The process is all documented, there are many sites that remain valid, especially at the round, but because you have to choose one site out of four, three have to be dropped.

Circumstances change.  More data, better modelling may render a site previously considered unsafe to be suitable.  Improved technology may make a previously marginal site accessible - Gale crater for example, rejected for MER but chosen for MSL. New information comes comes to light and sites not previously considered get added.  Gusev crater was not a candidate initially for 2020, but because of new data was added at the second meeting.

Quote
The Chinese have been operating their exploration program more as an engineering test program than a scientific one. A safe but less interesting site may be seen as just fine for their first lander.

First of all the engineers always win, all the landing sites have to be safe.   This is true for ESA and the US as well as China.  Secondly it's wrong to imply that science is not a driver for Chinese target selection, all Chinese lunar and planetary missions have had science drivers, and extensive results.




"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline Infinitesky

  • Member
  • Posts: 29
  • Liked: 20
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #54 on: 03/25/2016 07:06 am »
Roadmap for Chinese deep space exploration presented at #LPSC2016. Mars mission in 2020 approved by Chinese govt.




The latest news shows that probe will enter MOI first, and then release the lander.


2020: Launch of Mars probe and lander.
2023-2024: Launch of asteroid probe.
2028-2029: Mars Sample Return mission.
2030:Launch of Jupiter probe.


(It is said that in the initial plan, there are 9 projects, and now only 4.)
« Last Edit: 03/25/2016 07:17 am by Infinitesky »

Offline Star One

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13346
  • UK
  • Liked: 3672
  • Likes Given: 220
Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #55 on: 03/25/2016 08:03 am »
I am happy to see the Jupiter probe is still in there. Is that going to be touring the Jupiter system like Galileo?
« Last Edit: 03/25/2016 08:04 am by Star One »

Offline Infinitesky

  • Member
  • Posts: 29
  • Liked: 20
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #56 on: 03/25/2016 09:14 am »
I am happy to see the Jupiter probe is still in there. Is that going to be touring the Jupiter system like Galileo?
I hope the reason why the launch is so late is because the mission requires heavy rocket LM9, so that they can launch a huge and complex(also expensive) probe (contains some sub probes).
« Last Edit: 03/25/2016 09:23 am by Infinitesky »

Offline Star One

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13346
  • UK
  • Liked: 3672
  • Likes Given: 220
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #57 on: 03/25/2016 11:47 am »
I am happy to see the Jupiter probe is still in there. Is that going to be touring the Jupiter system like Galileo?
I hope the reason why the launch is so late is because the mission requires heavy rocket LM9, so that they can launch a huge and complex(also expensive) probe (contains some sub probes).

Do we know what the LM9's capability is as far payloads to Jupiter?

Offline Infinitesky

  • Member
  • Posts: 29
  • Liked: 20
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #58 on: 03/25/2016 04:26 pm »
Quote
Do we know what the LM9's capability is as far payloads to Jupiter?

We do not know, because LM9 is still in design and has not been officially approved. It is said that its LEO capacity can reach 100 tons or 130 tons (similar to SLS or Saturn 5)
But I think it is maybe difficult to complete its first flight before 2030.
« Last Edit: 03/25/2016 04:44 pm by Infinitesky »

Offline shooter6947

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 120
  • Idaho
  • Liked: 107
  • Likes Given: 833
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #59 on: 03/25/2016 04:46 pm »
While the higher the resolution the better, you don't need HiRISE. The Vikings and Pathfinder landing sites were chosen without any high resolution imagery.
Yeah, you pretty much do need HiRISE to be sure that your selected site is safe.  The Vikings worked basically because they got lucky.  See this discussion of the Viking landing site selection process for details.

Of course you can always just roll the dice and hope for the best, if you don't NEED to be SURE.

Offline hop

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3352
  • Liked: 551
  • Likes Given: 891
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #60 on: 03/25/2016 08:00 pm »
Of course you can always just roll the dice and hope for the best, if you don't NEED to be SURE.
HiRISE class imagery doesn't get you to SURE either, because every landing site has a significant amount of non-survivable terrain on it. Every Mars landing to date has been rolling the dice and hoping for the best.

CE-3 had autonomous hazard avoidance, which no US Mars lander has ever used. Assuming they do the same for Mars and it works reasonably well, it would improve the odds significantly.

edit: Though if they are using airbags as suggested up thread, that's probably not the case.
« Last Edit: 03/25/2016 08:12 pm by hop »

Offline Dalhousie

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2637
  • Liked: 658
  • Likes Given: 909
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #61 on: 03/25/2016 08:29 pm »
While the higher the resolution the better, you don't need HiRISE. The Vikings and Pathfinder landing sites were chosen without any high resolution imagery.
Yeah, you pretty much do need HiRISE to be sure that your selected site is safe.  The Vikings worked basically because they got lucky.  See this discussion of the Viking landing site selection process for details.

Of course you can always just roll the dice and hope for the best, if you don't NEED to be SURE.

Landing site safety is always comes down to probabilities, even with HiRISE.  For example the rock height requirement for MSL was defined as "Probability that a rock >0.55 m high occurs in random sampled area of 4m2 should be <0.50%"

Remember that HiRISE can't usefully see individual rocks much smaller than 1 m (three pixels).  That's why radar scatterometry and polarimetry is used  because it enables estimates of surface roughness cto be made, though not able to locate individual boulders.  Viking used Aricebo radar for this, we now have MARSIS and SHARAD in Mars orbit, as well as ground based instruments to fall back on (including FAST as of this year, with a diameter 60% greater than Aricebo)
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Online Blackstar

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13840
  • Liked: 6047
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #62 on: 03/26/2016 12:28 am »
CE-3 had autonomous hazard avoidance, which no US Mars lander has ever used. Assuming they do the same for Mars and it works reasonably well, it would improve the odds significantly.


Has that system ever been described in detail?

As a US spacecraft engineer pointed out to me, the Moon is a much less rocky surface than Mars, so hazard avoidance in general is easier. Designing a hazard avoidance system for Mars is tougher than one for the Moon, and so the Chinese may still want to opt for a smoother surface rather than leave it to the autonomous system to handle the risk. In addition, if you're carrying a rover, you don't want to put it down in a very rocky area or it won't be able to get out.

(I heard an interesting discussion about using hazard avoidance on Europa, where you may have really poor imagery of the surface. The challenges of designing that kind of system are substantial.)

Offline hop

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3352
  • Liked: 551
  • Likes Given: 891
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #63 on: 03/26/2016 12:56 am »
Remember that HiRISE can't usefully see individual rocks much smaller than 1 m (three pixels).
This is true in the sense of actually *imaging* rocks, but that's not the only way estimate hazards.
Quote
That's why radar scatterometry and polarimetry is used  because it enables estimates of surface roughness cto be made, though not able to locate individual boulders.
You can get roughness at significantly better than meter scale from HiRISE imagery (e.g. www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/8thmars2014/pdf/1182.pdf)

Contrary to your suggestion, my understanding is that MSL rock hazard analysis relied primarily on HiRISE data. See http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-012-9916-y

Offline hop

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3352
  • Liked: 551
  • Likes Given: 891
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #64 on: 03/26/2016 01:07 am »
Has that system ever been described in detail?
Not that I've heard of. Hence the "if it works well" caveat.
Quote
As a US spacecraft engineer pointed out to me, the Moon is a much less rocky surface than Mars, so hazard avoidance in general is easier. Designing a hazard avoidance system for Mars is tougher than one for the Moon, and so the Chinese may still want to opt for a smoother surface rather than leave it to the autonomous system to handle the risk.
Agreed. The main point I was trying to make is that high res orbital imagery isn't the only possible way to manage the risk.

Offline Dalhousie

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2637
  • Liked: 658
  • Likes Given: 909
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #65 on: 03/26/2016 08:09 am »
Remember that HiRISE can't usefully see individual rocks much smaller than 1 m (three pixels).
This is true in the sense of actually *imaging* rocks, but that's not the only way estimate hazards.
Quote
That's why radar scatterometry and polarimetry is used  because it enables estimates of surface roughness cto be made, though not able to locate individual boulders.
You can get roughness at significantly better than meter scale from HiRISE imagery (e.g. www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/8thmars2014/pdf/1182.pdf)

Interesting approach, but they are assuming that brightness variation at the pixel scale is due to roughness.  there may be other reasons.  I guess it does provide a conservative estimate.  But I would be looking at other evidence to back it up.

Contrary to your suggestion, my understanding is that MSL rock hazard analysis relied primarily on HiRISE data. See http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-012-9916-y

Thanks for the link, I have been using the parallel paper by Grant and others on the science process but had not seen that one.  It's most useful.  It clearly shows that multiple methods are used and compared.

Note that in sections 5.2 and 9.6 it talks about using the spread of the laser returns in MOLA to determine roughness, and scattering of X and S-band radar returns in sections 5.5 and 9.6.  Imagery (HiRISE and HRSC) is discussed in the context of constructing DEMS to examine relief at the 1-1000 m scale (sections 5.2 13), and in imaging of larger rocks (section 2.4), inferred as being larger than the rover belly pan (~1.64 m across) and higher than the 0.55 m clearance of the rover.  Section 9.4.2 discusses the ability to recognise shadows as small as three pixels to map rock distributions (3 X 0.24 m = 0.72 m).

I don't want you to think I disagree with you.  I think we both agree that there are multiple sites with good HiRISE coverage for the Chinese to select a landing site from, that HiRISE is not the only data set used in assessing landing sites, and, in the unlikely event of them wanting to land somewhere where there is no HiRISE coverage, it is not the be-all and end-all of site selection, very useful though it is.  In the extremely unlikely event that the Chinese decide to land in an area with no HiRISE coverage, they still won't be landing blind.


« Last Edit: 03/27/2016 12:32 am by Dalhousie »
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Online Blackstar

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13840
  • Liked: 6047
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #66 on: 03/26/2016 11:23 am »
An interesting question--that I'll see if I can get an answer to this week--is if the prohibition on talking to the Chinese about space stuff prevents NASA from talking to them about planetary protection. It would be not good if a future American spacecraft brought back signs of microbial life on Mars that were taken there by a Chinese spacecraft. And certainly the Chinese would benefit from finding out how the Americans do planetary protection. But I suspect that there's no direct communication and that any communication is done through international forums like COSPAR.

Offline Infinitesky

  • Member
  • Posts: 29
  • Liked: 20
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #67 on: 03/26/2016 07:17 pm »
But I suspect that there's no direct communication and that any communication is done through international forums like COSPAR.
A very interesting question, I think China will pay attention to avoid the Mars microbial contamination.
It is a pity that NASA was banned from all forms of direct communication with China.

Offline Dalhousie

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2637
  • Liked: 658
  • Likes Given: 909
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #68 on: 03/27/2016 12:37 am »
But I suspect that there's no direct communication and that any communication is done through international forums like COSPAR.
A very interesting question, I think China will pay attention to avoid the Mars microbial contamination.
It is a pity that NASA was banned from all forms of direct communication with China.

Two Chinese authors contributed to this international document on planetary protection from 2014 http://iaaweb.org/iaa/Scientific%20Activity/Study%20Groups/SG%20Commission%203/sg320/sg320interimreport.pdf The other contributors were from the US (six), Europe (three), Russia (three) and India (one).
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Online Blackstar

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13840
  • Liked: 6047
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #69 on: 03/27/2016 11:21 pm »
But I suspect that there's no direct communication and that any communication is done through international forums like COSPAR.
A very interesting question, I think China will pay attention to avoid the Mars microbial contamination.
It is a pity that NASA was banned from all forms of direct communication with China.

NASA is allowed to participate in multilateral communications with the Chinese. However, planetary protection issues are really obscure and complicated. They're just... WHOA! They're like, WOW! Complex, dude! You think other things are complicated? They ain't nothing compared to this stuff!

Sorry, got a little carried away there...

Anyway, this is the kind of subject where it seems like sharing as much information and talking as much as possible is in the best interests of everybody. NASA's been doing this stuff for a very long time and certainly understands it better than anybody. So the ability to share that knowledge shouldn't be constrained. But I bet it is.

Online Blackstar

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13840
  • Liked: 6047
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #70 on: 03/28/2016 10:38 pm »
So, I talked to a coworker who said that last Friday was a multilateral discussion in Paris about planetary protection issues. China, Russia and ESA sent representatives (I was a little unclear, but I think that he said that there were no NASA people there, which I find a little odd--but it may be that the U.S. was represented by non-government people). He confirmed that NASA cannot communicate directly with China on this issue. He did say he got some material about the Chinese program that he will share and I'll post here.


Offline Phil Stooke

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1114
  • Canada
  • Liked: 1065
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #71 on: 03/29/2016 03:48 am »
Back to the rock hazard topic - the other approach to estimating rockiness, which was essential for Phoenix and has been used elsewhere, if thermal inertia, derived from the Mars Odyssey THEMIS instrument and available globally now.

Solid chunks of rock conduct heat into their interiors during the day and release it slowly at night, as it conducts back out.  Dust and sand act more like insulators, getting hot at the surface during the day but not conducting much heat downwards.  Then they cool off fast at night by radiation.  By comparing day and night temperatures with THEMIS we get a pretty good measure of thermal inertia and can use it to identify rocky areas.

Phoenix site selection was going on when there was not much HiRISE to use, so it helped identify rock-free areas.  HiRISE then imaged primarily the sites already chosen on the basis of THEMIS data.  HiRISE also showed that areas chosen on the basis of other morphological clues were often rockier than expected, causing a late change to the preferred area.

For the Chinese lander, going to an area with good coverage by HiRISE seems sensible, but they, like everybody else, have access to all the data now via PDS, JMARS etc. 

Online Blackstar

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13840
  • Liked: 6047
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #72 on: 03/29/2016 12:54 pm »
Here you go.

Offline plutogno

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 889
  • Toulouse, France and Milan, Italy
  • Liked: 234
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #73 on: 03/29/2016 05:07 pm »
CE-3 had autonomous hazard avoidance, which no US Mars lander has ever used. Assuming they do the same for Mars and it works reasonably well, it would improve the odds significantly.


Has that system ever been described in detail?

yep. although all the papers I can find on the subject are in Chinese. the algorithm is described in the paper attached, for example

Offline Infinitesky

  • Member
  • Posts: 29
  • Liked: 20
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #74 on: 04/02/2016 09:53 am »
So, I talked to a coworker who said that last Friday was a multilateral discussion in Paris about planetary protection issues. China, Russia and ESA sent representatives (I was a little unclear, but I think that he said that there were no NASA people there, which I find a little odd--but it may be that the U.S. was represented by non-government people). He confirmed that NASA cannot communicate directly with China on this issue. He did say he got some material about the Chinese program that he will share and I'll post here.
Yes, I know that although CASC can not communicate directly with NASA, but it is said that they can participate in the multilateral communications.Perhaps a large part of them are from the U.S. non-governmental organizations.(Maybe Mars Society?I seem to have heard that there was a Chinese student there before. )
Thank you very much for file sharing,I'm familiar with the contents of the past missions, but I also have found something new about the future Mars missions.It is surprising to learn from this channel rather than from domestic.
« Last Edit: 04/02/2016 10:07 am by Infinitesky »

Offline savuporo

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5152
  • Liked: 1000
  • Likes Given: 342
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #75 on: 04/02/2016 04:49 pm »
Yes, I know that although CASC can not communicate directly with NASA..

Speaking of communications. I wonder if this thing would speak fully standard CCSDS 0x1ACFFC1D dialect. Chang'e 1/2 almost did. But i'm wondering if ESA is doing any prep work with CNSA to be able to relay through Mars Express or TGO. That would be a tricky conversation to have, because Electra
Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline Dalhousie

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2637
  • Liked: 658
  • Likes Given: 909
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #76 on: 04/03/2016 01:19 am »
Yes, I know that although CASC can not communicate directly with NASA..

Speaking of communications. I wonder if this thing would speak fully standard CCSDS 0x1ACFFC1D dialect. Chang'e 1/2 almost did. But i'm wondering if ESA is doing any prep work with CNSA to be able to relay through Mars Express or TGO. That would be a tricky conversation to have, because Electra

Why would that be any more tricky than anything else?
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline savuporo

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5152
  • Liked: 1000
  • Likes Given: 342
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #77 on: 04/03/2016 02:29 am »
Why would that be any more tricky than anything else?

NASA is still prohibited from directly collaborating with CNSA, it would be just odd if NASA contributed asset would end up helping the Chinese mission. ESOC contributing their own assets to Chang'e missions is obviously not under any of these restrictions, so that's probably procedurally easier.
Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Online Blackstar

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13840
  • Liked: 6047
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #78 on: 04/03/2016 03:06 am »
So, I talked to a coworker who said that last Friday was a multilateral discussion in Paris about planetary protection issues. China, Russia and ESA sent representatives (I was a little unclear, but I think that he said that there were no NASA people there, which I find a little odd--but it may be that the U.S. was represented by non-government people). He confirmed that NASA cannot communicate directly with China on this issue. He did say he got some material about the Chinese program that he will share and I'll post here.
Yes, I know that although CASC can not communicate directly with NASA, but it is said that they can participate in the multilateral communications.Perhaps a large part of them are from the U.S. non-governmental organizations.(Maybe Mars Society?I seem to have heard that there was a Chinese student there before. )
Thank you very much for file sharing,I'm familiar with the contents of the past missions, but I also have found something new about the future Mars missions.It is surprising to learn from this channel rather than from domestic.

Not Mars Society. That is a group of amateurs. They don't have any involvement in current robotic programs.

Offline Dalhousie

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2637
  • Liked: 658
  • Likes Given: 909
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #79 on: 04/03/2016 03:46 am »
Why would that be any more tricky than anything else?

NASA is still prohibited from directly collaborating with CNSA, it would be just odd if NASA contributed asset would end up helping the Chinese mission. ESOC contributing their own assets to Chang'e missions is obviously not under any of these restrictions, so that's probably procedurally easier.

Mars express is not a NASA mission, nor is the TGO, both of which you specified, so why is this a problem?
« Last Edit: 04/03/2016 03:49 am by Dalhousie »
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline savuporo

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5152
  • Liked: 1000
  • Likes Given: 342
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #80 on: 04/03/2016 05:31 am »
Mars express is not a NASA mission, nor is the TGO, both of which you specified, so why is this a problem?
TGO carries a NASA payload, that is there partially for NASA's usage and purposes
Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline Dalhousie

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2637
  • Liked: 658
  • Likes Given: 909
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #81 on: 04/03/2016 12:09 pm »
Mars express is not a NASA mission, nor is the TGO, both of which you specified, so why is this a problem?
TGO carries a NASA payload, that is there partially for NASA's usage and purposes

Not that I can see, some participating scientists is about it. The instruments are primarily Belgian (1) Swiss (1) and Russian (2):

NOMAD – Nadir and Occultation for MArs Discovery
NOMAD combines three spectrometers, two infrared and one ultraviolet, to perform high-sensitivity orbital identification of atmospheric components, including methane and many other species, via both solar occultation and direct reflected-light nadir observations.
Principal Investigator: Ann Carine Vandaele, Belgian Institute for Space Aeronomy, Belgium
Co-Principal Investigator: José Lopez Moreno, Instituto de Astrofísica de Andalucía, Spain
Co-Principal Investigator: Giancarlo Bellucci, Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica, Italy
Co-Principal Investigator: Manish Patel, The Open University, United Kingdom
Participating countries: Belgium, Spain, Italy, United Kingdom, United States of America, Canada.

ACS – Atmospheric Chemistry Suite
This suite of three infrared instruments will help scientists to investigate the chemistry and structure of the Martian atmosphere. ACS will complement NOMAD by extending the coverage at infrared wavelengths, and by taking images of the Sun to better analyse the solar occultation data.
Principal Investigator: Oleg Korablev, Space Research Institute (IKI), Moscow, Russia

CaSSIS – Colour and Stereo Surface Imaging System
A high resolution camera (5 metres per pixel) capable of obtaining colour and stereo images over a wide swathe. CaSSIS will provide the geological and dynamical context for sources or sinks of trace gases detected by NOMAD and ACS.
Principal Investigator: Nicolas Thomas, University of Bern, Switzerland
Participating countries: Switzerland, Italy.

FREND – Fine Resolution Epithermal Neutron Detector
This neutron detector will map hydrogen on the surface down to a metre deep, revealing deposits of water-ice near the surface. FREND’s mapping of shallow subsurface water ice will be up to 10 times better than existing measurements.
Principal Investigator: Igor Mitrofanov, Space Research Institute (IKI), Moscow, Russia

http://exploration.esa.int/mars/48523-trace-gas-orbiter-instruments/
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline Kryten

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 715
  • Liked: 406
  • Likes Given: 33
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #82 on: 04/03/2016 12:12 pm »
Mars express is not a NASA mission, nor is the TGO, both of which you specified, so why is this a problem?
TGO carries a NASA payload, that is there partially for NASA's usage and purposes

Not that I can see, some participating scientists is about it. The instruments are primarily Belgian (1) Swiss (1) and Russian (2):
The NASA payload is the Electra radio, which is exactly what would be involved in use of TGO or Mars Express for relay from the Chinese lander.

Offline Dalhousie

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2637
  • Liked: 658
  • Likes Given: 909
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #83 on: 04/03/2016 08:29 pm »
Mars express is not a NASA mission, nor is the TGO, both of which you specified, so why is this a problem?
TGO carries a NASA payload, that is there partially for NASA's usage and purposes

Not that I can see, some participating scientists is about it. The instruments are primarily Belgian (1) Swiss (1) and Russian (2):
The NASA payload is the Electra radio, which is exactly what would be involved in use of TGO or Mars Express for relay from the Chinese lander.

That's a spacecraft operations system, not a payload.

However as TGO is using electra for surface comms, that would be a problem for using, given the current infantile US attitude regarding China, of course things might change.  They have four years to grow up.

Fortunately the Chinese orbiter should be carrying it's own relay.

"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline savuporo

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5152
  • Liked: 1000
  • Likes Given: 342
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #84 on: 04/03/2016 08:38 pm »
Fortunately the Chinese orbiter should be carrying it's own relay.
Even for that I'm hoping they are adopting CCSDS proximity-1 link protocols and have ESA assistance for interop testing. The more coverage and redundancy the better for everyone
Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline plutogno

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 889
  • Toulouse, France and Milan, Italy
  • Liked: 234
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #85 on: 04/04/2016 04:24 pm »
Top space engineer on China's mission to Mars, the Moon and deep space exploration

http://gbtimes.com/china/top-space-engineer-chinas-mission-mars-moon-and-deep-space-exploration

Offline savuporo

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5152
  • Liked: 1000
  • Likes Given: 342
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #86 on: 04/04/2016 05:02 pm »
That was a good interview. Not a lot of detailed answers, but airbag landing seems to be acknowledged: "For these reasons, a Mars landing will be more difficult, but we believe we have mastered the technical aspects, including large parachutes, reverse thrust engines and an airbag."
Also should dispel any notion that there is no space race going on, at least in Asia.
Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline Dalhousie

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2637
  • Liked: 658
  • Likes Given: 909
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #87 on: 04/04/2016 10:03 pm »
Also should dispel any notion that there is no space race going on, at least in Asia.

But it not the over-riding consideration
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline plutogno

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 889
  • Toulouse, France and Milan, Italy
  • Liked: 234
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #88 on: 04/05/2016 10:29 am »
an engineer saying that he regrets that India went to Mars before China does not make a space race.
it's not as if the  government had invested to make sure that China went there first.
« Last Edit: 04/05/2016 10:55 am by plutogno »

Offline Phillip Clark

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2617
  • Hastings, England
  • Liked: 555
  • Likes Given: 1078
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #89 on: 04/05/2016 11:44 am »
an engineer saying that he regrets that India went to Mars before China does not make a space race.
it's not as if the  government had invested to make sure that China went there first.

Remember that it was only a Russian launch failure that prevented a Chinese Mars mission getting to Mars before India.

Until China declared its programmes I don't think that India had lunar or Mars exploration programmes.   And their pretend-piloted programme only appeared after Shenzhou.   So, China isn't racing anyone, but India is trying to race China.

Sorry to get off-topic!
I've always been crazy but it's kept me from going insane - WJ.

Offline vineethgk

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 892
  • India
  • Liked: 186
  • Likes Given: 265
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #90 on: 04/07/2016 07:34 am »
Well, beyond all the 'I-got-there-before-you-did' chest thumping, the 'Mangalyaan' (which is what I prefer to call it) certainly did one invaluable service - inspire a new generation of Indian youth to stay back in the country and build their dreams here. And yes, India needs that 'race' factor more than China does. For the Chinese, this might have been a small 'Sputnik' moment of sort, reminding them that their next-door neighbor is not too far behind. It would be exciting to see a friendly Sino-Indian 'race' to the Martian surface in 2020 !

Sent from my ASUS_Z010D using Tapatalk


Offline Pipcard

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 600
  • Liked: 252
  • Likes Given: 118
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #91 on: 04/15/2016 02:16 pm »
I like to look at space-related CONOPS diagrams, so I stumbled upon this concept to use many CZ-9 rockets for a human Mars mission.

I tried Google reverse image search and TinEye, but couldn't find it anywhere else.

edit: Page is currently dead. I have archived the Google cache.
« Last Edit: 04/16/2016 09:08 pm by Pipcard »

Offline Dalhousie

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2637
  • Liked: 658
  • Likes Given: 909
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #92 on: 04/17/2016 06:03 am »
I like to look at space-related CONOPS diagrams, so I stumbled upon this concept to use many CZ-9 rockets for a human Mars mission.

I tried Google reverse image search and TinEye, but couldn't find it anywhere else.

edit: Page is currently dead. I have archived the Google cache.

So how many launches?  It would appear to be a split mission, semi-direct architecture, probably chemical fuelled.  the "26 presumably refers to the time between the first and second window.  What does the "21" refer to?  It's too short to be from second window to arrival back at Earth.  It's a bit short even for time from the second window to the start of the return trip.  Too long though for the surface interval.  It note it is followed by "33", which is about right for a complete mission.
« Last Edit: 04/17/2016 06:54 am by Dalhousie »
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline Lsquirrel

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 111
  • Liked: 65
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #93 on: 04/17/2016 06:41 am »
I like to look at space-related CONOPS diagrams, so I stumbled upon this concept to use many CZ-9 rockets for a human Mars mission.

I tried Google reverse image search and TinEye, but couldn't find it anywhere else.

edit: Page is currently dead. I have archived the Google cache.

It's a SAST proposal human mars mission,post on 《Aerospace Shanghai》2014 Issue 1
the propulsion modules use MMH/NTO, lead to so many HLLV launches


Offline Steven Pietrobon

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32466
  • Adelaide, Australia
    • Steven Pietrobon's Space Archive
  • Liked: 21046
  • Likes Given: 3592
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #94 on: 04/17/2016 06:41 am »
I think the first image is "26 months" and then "21 something and 33 months". The 33 months (2.75 years) could be the time for the complete journey to Mars and back to Earth.
« Last Edit: 04/17/2016 06:44 am by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Lsquirrel

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 111
  • Liked: 65
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #95 on: 04/17/2016 06:56 am »
I like to look at space-related CONOPS diagrams, so I stumbled upon this concept to use many CZ-9 rockets for a human Mars mission.

I tried Google reverse image search and TinEye, but couldn't find it anywhere else.

edit: Page is currently dead. I have archived the Google cache.

So how many launches?  It would appear to be a split mission, semi-direct architecture, probably chemical fuelled.  the "26 presumably refers to the time between the first and second window.  What does the "21" refer to?  It's too short to be from second window to arrival back at Earth.  It's a bit short even for time from the second window to the start of the return trip.  Too long though for the surface interval.

Cargo Ship(货运飞船) :4 HLLV(LEO Capability 100 Tonnes) launch 4 propulsion modules + 1 CZ-5 launch mars land module(include mars surface habitats)
Crew Ship(载人飞船): 6 HLLV launch 6 propulsion modules + 1 CZ-5 launch DSH + 1 CZ-5 launch mars land module(include mars ascent vehicle and earth reentry vehicle)

the launches are 10 HLLV + 3 CZ-5

according to the paper, crew ship total flight time(earth launches&orbit assemble,tranfer to mars,landing,surface survey,ascent, return to earth&reentry) is 629 or 993 days/ 21 or 33 months
I don't think it's a Serious programme
« Last Edit: 04/17/2016 07:00 am by Lsquirrel »

Offline Dalhousie

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2637
  • Liked: 658
  • Likes Given: 909
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #96 on: 04/17/2016 07:51 am »
I like to look at space-related CONOPS diagrams, so I stumbled upon this concept to use many CZ-9 rockets for a human Mars mission.

I tried Google reverse image search and TinEye, but couldn't find it anywhere else.

edit: Page is currently dead. I have archived the Google cache.

So how many launches?  It would appear to be a split mission, semi-direct architecture, probably chemical fuelled.  the "26 presumably refers to the time between the first and second window.  What does the "21" refer to?  It's too short to be from second window to arrival back at Earth.  It's a bit short even for time from the second window to the start of the return trip.  Too long though for the surface interval.

Cargo Ship(货运飞船) :4 HLLV(LEO Capability 100 Tonnes) launch 4 propulsion modules + 1 CZ-5 launch mars land module(include mars surface habitats)
Crew Ship(载人飞船): 6 HLLV launch 6 propulsion modules + 1 CZ-5 launch DSH + 1 CZ-5 launch mars land module(include mars ascent vehicle and earth reentry vehicle)

the launches are 10 HLLV + 3 CZ-5

according to the paper, crew ship total flight time(earth launches&orbit assemble,tranfer to mars,landing,surface survey,ascent, return to earth&reentry) is 629 or 993 days/ 21 or 33 months
I don't think it's a Serious programme

Maybe not but it is an interesting first study.  About 1000 tonnes IMLO.  No mention of aerocapture or ISRU?  What about crew size?

The 21/33 month missions would be opposition/conjunction class options
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline Lsquirrel

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 111
  • Liked: 65
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #97 on: 04/17/2016 09:10 am »
I like to look at space-related CONOPS diagrams, so I stumbled upon this concept to use many CZ-9 rockets for a human Mars mission.

I tried Google reverse image search and TinEye, but couldn't find it anywhere else.

edit: Page is currently dead. I have archived the Google cache.

So how many launches?  It would appear to be a split mission, semi-direct architecture, probably chemical fuelled.  the "26 presumably refers to the time between the first and second window.  What does the "21" refer to?  It's too short to be from second window to arrival back at Earth.  It's a bit short even for time from the second window to the start of the return trip.  Too long though for the surface interval.

Cargo Ship(货运飞船) :4 HLLV(LEO Capability 100 Tonnes) launch 4 propulsion modules + 1 CZ-5 launch mars land module(include mars surface habitats)
Crew Ship(载人飞船): 6 HLLV launch 6 propulsion modules + 1 CZ-5 launch DSH + 1 CZ-5 launch mars land module(include mars ascent vehicle and earth reentry vehicle)

the launches are 10 HLLV + 3 CZ-5

according to the paper, crew ship total flight time(earth launches&orbit assemble,tranfer to mars,landing,surface survey,ascent, return to earth&reentry) is 629 or 993 days/ 21 or 33 months
I don't think it's a Serious programme

Maybe not but it is an interesting first study.  About 1000 tonnes IMLO.  No mention of aerocapture or ISRU?  What about crew size?

The 21/33 month missions would be opposition/conjunction class options

it uses Aerocapture, MAV uses MMH/NTO,so there is not use ISRU
mars surface hab has a height of 6m and diameter of 6m, hab volume is 20m3.deep space is 8m long and 4m diameter, hab volume is 50m3

Offline savuporo

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5152
  • Liked: 1000
  • Likes Given: 342
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #98 on: 04/20/2016 03:13 am »
it uses Aerocapture, MAV uses MMH/NTO,so there is not use ISRU
mars surface hab has a height of 6m and diameter of 6m, hab volume is 20m3.deep space is 8m long and 4m diameter, hab volume is 50m3
IMO a great baseline to start with. Take the worst case, no <insert miracle happens here> architecture, figure out if you gonna commit to this and then you can only improve from there. Lobbing 1000 tons to LEO isnt actually unrealistic, if everything you put up has long loiter capability and you have enough pads.
At current launch rate, with mostly CZ-3 flying they are probably putting around 100 tons to orbit a year anyway.
Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline Dalhousie

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2637
  • Liked: 658
  • Likes Given: 909
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #99 on: 04/20/2016 04:30 am »

it uses Aerocapture, MAV uses MMH/NTO,so there is not use ISRU
mars surface hab has a height of 6m and diameter of 6m, hab volume is 20m3.deep space is 8m long and 4m diameter, hab volume is 50m3

Those are extremely small volumes given the dimensions and barely enough even for a minimum crew.  In particular the surface habitat volume would support only a short stay mission.  Of course, if both Mars landers have similar volumes that improves matters somewhat, but not by much
« Last Edit: 04/20/2016 04:32 am by Dalhousie »
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline plutogno

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 889
  • Toulouse, France and Milan, Italy
  • Liked: 234
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #100 on: 04/20/2016 05:36 am »
going back to robotic Mars missions, which we are more likely to see in the next future...

China’s plans for the Moon, Mars and beyond
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-36085659

Offline Chris Bergin

Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #101 on: 04/20/2016 01:24 pm »
going back to robotic Mars missions, which we are more likely to see in the next future...

China’s plans for the Moon, Mars and beyond
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-36085659

Moon, Mars and Beyond? Where have I heard that before? ;)

Still, interesting stuff.
Support NSF via L2 -- Help improve NSF -- Site Rules/Feedback/Updates
**Not a L2 member? Whitelist this forum in your adblocker to support the site and ensure full functionality.**

Offline Eric Hedman

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2074
  • The birthplace of the solid body electric guitar
  • Liked: 1700
  • Likes Given: 935
Re: Chinese Mars mission
« Reply #102 on: 04/20/2016 03:41 pm »
going back to robotic Mars missions, which we are more likely to see in the next future...

China’s plans for the Moon, Mars and beyond
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-36085659

Moon, Mars and Beyond? Where have I heard that before? ;)

Still, interesting stuff.
I too think I've heard that before.  I also find it interesting that that they have a manned lunar outpost in their long range plans.  I also find it interesting that they want to work with the rest of the rest of the world on this stuff.  If only global politics wasn't so messy cooperation could speed things up.

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement SkyTale Software GmbH
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
0