### Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 8  (Read 1452570 times)

#### dustinthewind

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 8
« Reply #20 on: 08/21/2016 05:14 pm »

"Thrust without exhaust is of course impossible."  OK,  when you fall under gravity, you do not expel any exhaust!
Right?   This is because the falling object is in a time rate differential i.e. the rate of time slows down toward Earth.

This is a logical causal structure. This is what drives gravity, quantum mechanics, thermodynamics etc. Things tend to exist more (and be found) where the rate of time (1/T) is slower. The York Time is in fact a description not of spacetime contraction/expansion but an indication of the structure of the rate of time; slower in front (pull) and faster at the back (push) giving you motion and direction.

I don't know if this help but this is what everybody is trying to achieve  .. in simple terms.

Marcel,

What I can tell you is there is a red shift of the internal EmDrive EM waves as they transfer momentum to the accelerating EmDrive. So momentum is conserved.

If the red shift is only between the light and cavity then momentum isn't conserved.  That is light created in the cavity should have zero average momentum.  For that light to become heavier at one end would lead to a violation of conservation of momentum unless that light is becoming heavier at the one end because of a change in the index of the quantum vacuum.

If the quantum vacuum changes in index then it would still conserve momentum I think.  Measurements have been done in water where it appears light becomes heavier and imparts more energy to a reflector and has been measured the back reaction on the water.  If the light is inducing a back reaction on the quantum vacuum then its possible we can still conserve momentum but that means even if the cavity isn't accelerating there will be a red shift because the cavity is accelerating the quantum vacuum.

If the interaction is just between the light and the cavity then I don't see how if the cavity isn't accelerating that the light could lose energy but then I don't see how that kind of interaction could conserve momentum.

Of the two choices, the cavity accelerating the quantum vacuum seems more plausible (if it can be shown to actually work).
« Last Edit: 08/21/2016 05:18 pm by dustinthewind »

#### M.LeBel

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 8
« Reply #21 on: 08/21/2016 06:47 pm »
O.K. I ear you. Conservation laws follow logic as the “no magic” rule. Stuff just don’t disappear...

A red shift is observed in EM waves leaving a gravitational source i.e. moving from slower time rate toward a faster time rate. The red shift you talk about would indicate that there is such a time rate differential present in the device. In theory, it should be faster time rate at the back and slower time rate at the front similar (same) to the York time structure in White’s bubble simulation graphics.

So, a device that can red shift a wave using that same wave (energy of system is in the wave) and special configuration means what?  Is this the converse of the gravitational red shift? Is forcing the red shift of an EM wave using a special configuration causing a (required) time rate differential ?

Marcel,

#### meberbs

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 8
« Reply #22 on: 08/21/2016 09:30 pm »

"Thrust without exhaust is of course impossible."  OK,  when you fall under gravity, you do not expel any exhaust!
Right?   This is because the falling object is in a time rate differential i.e. the rate of time slows down toward Earth.

This is a logical causal structure. This is what drives gravity, quantum mechanics, thermodynamics etc. Things tend to exist more (and be found) where the rate of time (1/T) is slower. The York Time is in fact a description not of spacetime contraction/expansion but an indication of the structure of the rate of time; slower in front (pull) and faster at the back (push) giving you motion and direction.

I don't know if this help but this is what everybody is trying to achieve  .. in simple terms.

Marcel,

I am not sure what you mean by "rate of time." Assuming you mean the time dilation effect in special and general relativity, then your statements do not make sense. The faster something is moving then the larger the time dilation effect. Your hypothesis would then result in things accelerating without bound. Also, the time dilation in a gravitational well is part of gravity. This doesn't explain any of the other fundamental forces.

Also the exhaust requirement is really a requirement that momentum exchange with something. Rockets push their exhaust backwards to accelerate. When falling, you are also pulling the earth upwards to accelerate downwards. Same requirement remains in place, you just don't notice the earth accelerating, since it is absurdly massive.

#### dustinthewind

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 8
« Reply #23 on: 08/21/2016 10:54 pm »
O.K. I ear you. Conservation laws follow logic as the “no magic” rule. Stuff just don’t disappear...

A red shift is observed in EM waves leaving a gravitational source i.e. moving from slower time rate toward a faster time rate. The red shift you talk about would indicate that there is such a time rate differential present in the device. In theory, it should be faster time rate at the back and slower time rate at the front similar (same) to the York time structure in White’s bubble simulation graphics.

So, a device that can red shift a wave using that same wave (energy of system is in the wave) and special configuration means what?  Is this the converse of the gravitational red shift? Is forcing the red shift of an EM wave using a special configuration causing a (required) time rate differential ?

Marcel,

I can't say this for sure but I suspected a connection to EM simulations of the EM drive.  The modeled wave form in the cavity appears to have longer wavelengths at one end of the cavity than the other.  In order for the simulations to stretch the wavelength in the cavity there must be something in the Maxwell equations that is doing this.

I was supposing there was something happening where the simulations of the wavelength of the light in the cavity being stretched corresponded to the light becoming heavier/slowing in time (osculation).  The question was could this effect in the cavity have an effect on the quantum vacuum?

(They suspect the quantum vacuum as accelerating near the earth)
DOES THE QUANTUM VACUUM FALL NEAR THE EARTH?
The downward acceleration of the quantum vacuum is responsible for the Einstein Equivalence Principle and also for 4D Space-Time Curvature
Tom Ostoma and Mike Trushyk
http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/9902029

and

(The paper below they show measurements of increased impulse from light in a medium and a back reaction on the medium)
Photon mass drag and the momentum of light in a medium
Mikko Partanen, Teppo Häyrynen, Jani Oksanen, Jukka Tulkki
http://arxiv.org/abs/1603.07224

#### FattyLumpkin

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 8
« Reply #24 on: 08/22/2016 03:06 am »
Traveller, generally speaking, what would you say the difference is in Q between spherical and flat surfaced frustums. I have a Q of right around 19,000 in my current "flat surface" TE012 2.45 GHz design....how much (approximate) increase in Q do you think might I see were I to go spherical?  Thanks  FL

#### M.LeBel

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 8
« Reply #25 on: 08/22/2016 02:52 pm »
O.K. I ear you. Conservation laws follow logic as the “no magic” rule. Stuff just don’t disappear...

A red shift is observed in EM waves leaving a gravitational source i.e. moving from slower time rate toward a faster time rate. The red shift you talk about would indicate that there is such a time rate differential present in the device. In theory, it should be faster time rate at the back and slower time rate at the front similar (same) to the York time structure in White’s bubble simulation graphics.

So, a device that can red shift a wave using that same wave (energy of system is in the wave) and special configuration means what?  Is this the converse of the gravitational red shift? Is forcing the red shift of an EM wave using a special configuration causing a (required) time rate differential?

Marcel,

#### RERT

##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 8
« Reply #26 on: 08/22/2016 05:53 pm »
We've come across 'rate of time' before. It's a different perspective on things, but if you take the weak field Newtonian limit of GR, the only piece you need to create Gravity is a spatially non-uniform time dilation of the right form. By the same token, any non-uniform time dilation creates a gravity-like force. Interestingly the non-uniformity is tiny to create the earth's gravitational field. The time dilation effect is about 1 part in 10^-9 at earth's surface, changing at 1 part in 6 x 10^6 per metre, creating 1 g of acceleration with changes in the 'rate of time' of only about 10^-16 per metre. 10^-3 g would be fantastic for an Emdrive, so 1 part in 10^-19 would do the job. Feels like time is very 'stiff'!

The tiny little 64 trillion dollar question then becomes how to engineer a non-uniform time dilation...

I don't really get how this is the foundation of all forces though.

#### M.LeBel

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 8
« Reply #27 on: 08/22/2016 10:21 pm »
Dustinthewind:    Yes.  I think the cavity accelerate the vacuum, which to me, is the explosive like time process.  But, I would not discount the effect on quantum fluctuations. I think these fluctuations could be separated and “pumped” in opposite directions where they coalesce to form the time rate gradient?
Thanks for the Ostoma reference....

Meberbs:  We may understand time dilation (a time duration) as the integration of a dynamic process. Would this integration be possible without its first derivative, a time rate, suggested here as 1/T?
...and yes. Momentum is conserved.  ....”Things accelerating without bound”:  I guess so. In a G field, we always end up hitting the source (Earth). But if the source of the field is moving with you ....?

RERT:  Right! Small time rate differential  ..Big motion!  Part of the answer to the trillion dollars question is about understanding what you are really doing. We have to think not “time dilation” or time duration but rather one derivative below, the rate of time.  I believe a logically operational system, as the universe appears to be, requires that there be only one type of stuff out there. This is an explosive like process that we call time. In other words, make time a stuff of substance and work with that.

I have work on this “different perspective” and wrote a paper (attached). Read it all. This is not the maths, but it is the thinking.

Marcel,

#### WarpTech

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 8
« Reply #28 on: 08/23/2016 12:24 am »
Dustinthewind:    Yes.  I think the cavity accelerate the vacuum, which to me, is the explosive like time process.  But, I would not discount the effect on quantum fluctuations. I think these fluctuations could be separated and “pumped” in opposite directions where they coalesce to form the time rate gradient?
Thanks for the Ostoma reference....

Meberbs:  We may understand time dilation (a time duration) as the integration of a dynamic process. Would this integration be possible without its first derivative, a time rate, suggested here as 1/T?
...and yes. Momentum is conserved.  ....”Things accelerating without bound”:  I guess so. In a G field, we always end up hitting the source (Earth). But if the source of the field is moving with you ....?

RERT:  Right! Small time rate differential  ..Big motion!  Part of the answer to the trillion dollars question is about understanding what you are really doing. We have to think not “time dilation” or time duration but rather one derivative below, the rate of time.  I believe a logically operational system, as the universe appears to be, requires that there be only one type of stuff out there. This is an explosive like process that we call time. In other words, make time a stuff of substance and work with that.

I have work on this “different perspective” and wrote a paper (attached). Read it all. This is not the maths, but it is the thinking.

Marcel,

I think you guys are on the right track here. You asked how to create a time dilation field. Here is the math...

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305501551_AN_ENGINEERING_MODEL_OF_QUANTUM_GRAVITY

Based on this, the objective would be to have asymmetrical power fluctuations within the copper frustum. Absorption, emission and dissipation. Dissipative process are not conservative and the copper is not a perfect conductor. There is dissipation involved and the asymmetry of the frustum may be allowing this to create thrust. Modeling this is not as easy though, because you would be modeling the kinetic energy of the copper atoms, not the MW field inside the frustum.

Todd

#### tleach

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 8
« Reply #29 on: 08/23/2016 03:09 am »
...the objective would be to have asymmetrical power fluctuations within the copper frustum. Absorption, emission and dissipation. Dissipative process are not conservative and the copper is not a perfect conductor. There is dissipation involved and the asymmetry of the frustum may be allowing this to create thrust. Modeling this is not as easy though, because you would be modeling the kinetic energy of the copper atoms, not the MW field inside the frustum.

Quote
"What we're doing is the extreme case of nonlinear optics, where the light and matter are coupled so strongly that we don't have light and matter anymore. We have something in between, called a polariton."

"What we depend on is the vacuum fluctuation. Vacuum, in a classical sense, is an empty space. There's nothing. But in a quantum sense, a vacuum is full of fluctuating photons, having so-called zero-point energy. These vacuum photons are actually what we are using to resonantly excite electrons in our cavity."

~http://phys.org/news/2016-08-merge-quantum-coupling.html

Any similarities and/or correlations with your theory? Zero-Point Energy resonantly exciting electrons in a cavity making those electrons behave as a single gigantic atom? Perhaps the polaritons could be creating more focused asymmetrical power fluctuations in the copper?

The researches claim that they're achieving coupling of vacuum Rabi splitting as large as 10 percent of the photon energy. I'm not sure exactly what that means, but 10% sounds like pretty strong coupling to me!

T. Thor Leach

#### dustinthewind

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 8
« Reply #30 on: 08/23/2016 03:12 am »
Dustinthewind:    Yes.  I think the cavity accelerate the vacuum, which to me, is the explosive like time process.  But, I would not discount the effect on quantum fluctuations. I think these fluctuations could be separated and “pumped” in opposite directions where they coalesce to form the time rate gradient?
Thanks for the Ostoma reference....

Meberbs:  We may understand time dilation (a time duration) as the integration of a dynamic process. Would this integration be possible without its first derivative, a time rate, suggested here as 1/T?
...and yes. Momentum is conserved.  ....”Things accelerating without bound”:  I guess so. In a G field, we always end up hitting the source (Earth). But if the source of the field is moving with you ....?

RERT:  Right! Small time rate differential  ..Big motion!  Part of the answer to the trillion dollars question is about understanding what you are really doing. We have to think not “time dilation” or time duration but rather one derivative below, the rate of time.  I believe a logically operational system, as the universe appears to be, requires that there be only one type of stuff out there. This is an explosive like process that we call time. In other words, make time a stuff of substance and work with that.

I have work on this “different perspective” and wrote a paper (attached). Read it all. This is not the maths, but it is the thinking.

Marcel,

Your 1/T reference reminded me of this papper here: The Fundamental Physics of  Electromagnetic Waves
Juliana H. J. Mortenson General Resonance, LLC USA paper link which you might find interesting but not sure it really contributes.

After reading your paper I really feel what your looking for is that the quantum vacuum is anti-matter and matter combined.  That would give it the polarizable vacuum effect.  The leap I am making in that statement is that anti-mater if a form of anti-time.  I was thinking and it seems as if the PV matter/anti-matter vacuum could be polarized by the presence of matter in space.  That is anti-matter being attracted to matter might be attracted to large bodies of matter?  This could polarize the vacuum and if anti-mater is a form of anti time then this would slow the time in the vicinity of the matter.  I wonder if it would be with a gradient of 1/r^2.  That is matter would osculate with a positive time frequency and anti-matter would osculate with an anti-time frequency.  This polarization of the vacuum would then reduce the energy level in the large gravitational well and displace a percentage of the matter of the large body to a cloud surrounding the body which would be the field.  Does this work or am I mistaken?

Also with special relativity a ship that accelerates become flattened by realativity.  In front of the direction/velcocity it is traveling you subtract time and it contracts in front while you add time to the velocity behind also causing contraction.  If for some reason the ship accelerating causes a polarization in the quantum vacuum and anti-matter is pulled with it then maybe a wave is following the ship that is made of anti-matter and matter.  In front of the ship is the wave of anti-matter slowing time in front and behind the ship is the wave of matter speeding up time behind.  So in essence the polarization of anti-matter/matter would be responsible for gradients in time, length contractions, and gravity.

Also the light you mentioned where the electric field points toward fast time to slow time (or maybe that is reversed) is similar in that maybe the light is the polarization of this matter/anti-matter which also causes a gradient in time.  It also seems to possibly match up with electro-magnetism when you think what ever they are they are oppositely charged so can also make the necessary magnetic fields.

This also explains why when we collide particles we see both anti-matter and matter form.

I thought it was an intriguing line of thought and maybe it could have implications to better understanding the QV and if we can truly manipulate it.
« Last Edit: 08/23/2016 03:21 am by dustinthewind »

#### M.LeBel

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 8
« Reply #31 on: 08/23/2016 01:40 pm »
Dustinthewind:  Thanks for the Juliana ref.  I said nothing about anti-matter or anti-time. The main point is that there is a spontaneous dynamic oscillation between something and nothing that allows something to exist from nothingness by avoiding the primitive rule of non-contradiction.  So, this time process is everything, in simple form is the vacuum, or in complex structure is matter and waves. The real take away is the interface between science and this metaphysics as the nature the electric and magnetic fields.

I don’t know if the time process itself can be polarized or if it is just the fluctuations that can. I imagined a rotating axial electric field (bottle brush style) to see if it could help sort out these fluctuation in order to create an accumulation and the causal structure. What I found is that these fluctuations get aligned just as the expected induced magnetic field would; are these two separate things, magnetic field and QF alignment, or is the magnetic field just that: an alignment of Q fluctuations? If so, it would be like saying that everything other than the strict time process is due to the organization of these fluctuations i.e. we are all riding on a very thin margin!

The light model presents us with another question. In normal representations, these are electric and magnetic vectors; the model is made of maths. What happen when we make the model out of stuff? A unidirectional  increase/decrease in the time rate is a monopolar magnetic entity.... a monopole?

You like conservation laws?  I believe that for logical reasons tied to the causality structure, there is also a law of conservation of structure. Also, an increase in time rate structure cannot be found without a decrease in time rate structure. That I believe is why we can’t find a quark alone... and monopole alone ...

Marcel,

#### Notsosureofit

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 8
« Reply #32 on: 08/23/2016 05:19 pm »

#### SeeShells

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 8
« Reply #33 on: 08/23/2016 05:51 pm »
Quote
But in this posting we would like to announce a new superconductor thruster idea that Dr. Nassikas has come up with which should be able to produce 30,000 to a million times more thrust than his previous version.
http://etheric.com/nassikas-thruster-II/
---------------------------------------------
A million times thrust with no energy spent? All I'll say is extraordinary claims require extraordinary data.

Sorry guys and gals I've been very busy as of late but I haven't forgot anyone here and try to catch up when I can. Testing goes on and the anomaly still remains anonymous. A forced pulsed jerked dual mode of operation is providing some interesting clues. Much more later.

My Very Best,
Shell

#### aceshigh

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 8
« Reply #34 on: 08/23/2016 06:16 pm »
Quote
But in this posting we would like to announce a new superconductor thruster idea that Dr. Nassikas has come up with which should be able to produce 30,000 to a million times more thrust than his previous version.
http://etheric.com/nassikas-thruster-II/
---------------------------------------------
A million times thrust with no energy spent?

1 million x zero = zero

#### Monomorphic

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 8
« Reply #35 on: 08/23/2016 07:01 pm »
Quote
But in this posting we would like to announce a new superconductor thruster idea that Dr. Nassikas has come up with which should be able to produce 30,000 to a million times more thrust than his previous version.
http://etheric.com/nassikas-thruster-II/
---------------------------------------------
A million times thrust with no energy spent? All I'll say is extraordinary claims require extraordinary data.

Sorry guys and gals I've been very busy as of late but I haven't forgot anyone here and try to catch up when I can. Testing goes on and the anomaly still remains anonymous. A forced pulsed jerked dual mode of operation is providing some interesting clues. Much more later.

My Very Best,
Shell

Does anyone know where to get the superconducting nozzle Dr. Nassikas uses? I purchased a high flux magnet with the idea of eventually testing this thruster.

#### WarpTech

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 8
« Reply #36 on: 08/23/2016 08:09 pm »
Quote
But in this posting we would like to announce a new superconductor thruster idea that Dr. Nassikas has come up with which should be able to produce 30,000 to a million times more thrust than his previous version.
http://etheric.com/nassikas-thruster-II/
---------------------------------------------
A million times thrust with no energy spent? All I'll say is extraordinary claims require extraordinary data.

Sorry guys and gals I've been very busy as of late but I haven't forgot anyone here and try to catch up when I can. Testing goes on and the anomaly still remains anonymous. A forced pulsed jerked dual mode of operation is providing some interesting clues. Much more later.

My Very Best,
Shell

Does anyone know where to get the superconducting nozzle Dr. Nassikas uses? I purchased a high flux magnet with the idea of eventually testing this thruster.

Typically, you buy disks, crush them and then make whatever shape you want from that. You just need to re-bake the YCBO into a nozzle shape.

IMO, this is a very strong magnet in the Earth's magnetic field. It looks like a compass to me. I wouldn't bother. The claim that it provides thrust with no power input makes everything about it suspect.

Todd

#### FattyLumpkin

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 8
« Reply #37 on: 08/23/2016 09:12 pm »
For Anyone re the above question....Hypothetical: two frustums +/- the same size and volume etc. one with flat end plates the other with spherical. By what % (+/-) does the "Q" increase in the spherical frustum over the flat endplate frustum?  Thanks anyone,   FL

#### Monomorphic

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 8
« Reply #38 on: 08/23/2016 10:01 pm »
For Anyone re the above question....Hypothetical: two frustums +/- the same size and volume etc. one with flat end plates the other with spherical. By what % (+/-) does the "Q" increase in the spherical frustum over the flat endplate frustum?  Thanks anyone,   FL

Q increases with spherical end-plates. I am working on illustrating this via simulations. The end-plates need to be set up like a concave-convex optical cavity. Also, just slapping spherical end-plates onto your flat-end frustum will yield a different resonance. It has to be built from the ground up with spherical end-plates in mind.
« Last Edit: 08/23/2016 10:06 pm by Monomorphic »

#### SeeShells

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 8
« Reply #39 on: 08/23/2016 10:13 pm »
For Anyone re the above question....Hypothetical: two frustums +/- the same size and volume etc. one with flat end plates the other with spherical. By what % (+/-) does the "Q" increase in the spherical frustum over the flat endplate frustum?  Thanks anyone,   FL
Monomorphic did a FEKO simulation in a TE013 and let FEKO calculate out the max E-fields while showing the field structure deformations. E-Field Kv/m
for the curved it was 7500 and flat 1750
dB = 10 * Log (Pout / Pin)
or a diff of 6.3db

Shell

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