Quote from: Willem Staal on 11/30/2016 10:29 ami heard rumours that the Chinese already launced a experimental em-drive into space. They still waiting for results. My understanding is the Chinese experimental satellite has many experiments to conduct, the non cryo EmDrive from Prof Yang's new team is one of the experiments.
i heard rumours that the Chinese already launced a experimental em-drive into space. They still waiting for results.
Quote from: TheTraveller on 11/30/2016 10:36 amQuote from: Willem Staal on 11/30/2016 10:29 ami heard rumours that the Chinese already launced a experimental em-drive into space. They still waiting for results. My understanding is the Chinese experimental satellite has many experiments to conduct, the non cryo EmDrive from Prof Yang's new team is one of the experiments.When do they have telemetry of any results, you think? And will they share it?
Quote from: Willem Staal on 11/30/2016 10:54 amQuote from: TheTraveller on 11/30/2016 10:36 amQuote from: Willem Staal on 11/30/2016 10:29 ami heard rumours that the Chinese already launced a experimental em-drive into space. They still waiting for results. My understanding is the Chinese experimental satellite has many experiments to conduct, the non cryo EmDrive from Prof Yang's new team is one of the experiments.When do they have telemetry of any results, you think? And will they share it? My sources suggest the data will be shared by Prof Yang's team.The EmDrive works and it is time for deniers to move past failed reasons why it can't work to why it does work and to address all the reported experimental data in any theory.
looks like a old fahioned spacerace.. Shall i begin to save for a flying car ?
Quote from: TheTraveller on 11/30/2016 11:57 amQuote from: Willem Staal on 11/30/2016 10:54 amQuote from: TheTraveller on 11/30/2016 10:36 amQuote from: Willem Staal on 11/30/2016 10:29 ami heard rumours that the Chinese already launced a experimental em-drive into space. They still waiting for results. My understanding is the Chinese experimental satellite has many experiments to conduct, the non cryo EmDrive from Prof Yang's new team is one of the experiments.When do they have telemetry of any results, you think? And will they share it? My sources suggest the data will be shared by Prof Yang's team.The EmDrive works and it is time for deniers to move past failed reasons why it can't work to why it does work and to address all the reported experimental data in any theory. looks like a old fahioned spacerace.. Shall i begin to save for a flying car ?
Quote from: Willem Staal on 11/30/2016 12:04 pm looks like a old fahioned spacerace.. Shall i begin to save for a flying car ? Just hypothetically, what happens if everyone flies around in those? With thrust forces in the kilonewton range. If the EM drive creates its acceleration by "pushing against the quantum vacuum", would that yield measurable residual effects for matter riding the wake of an em drive? Like thrust fluctuations in another EM drive flying directly behind a first one, or measurable forces on masses that are placed in the thrust vector? Or spacetime distortions and eddies, like some proposed warp drive designs would create?Could the presence and operation of an EM drive be detected from a distance?(I know I'm mixing a lot of concepts here that have nothing directly to do with each other. Just food for thoughts)
It doesn't push against the quantum vacuum.The force reversal with and without a dielectric just killed that theory, as it did Lorentz force, thermal expansion, MiHsC and most other theories.
Quote from: TheTraveller on 11/30/2016 12:38 pmIt doesn't push against the quantum vacuum.The force reversal with and without a dielectric just killed that theory, as it did Lorentz force, thermal expansion, MiHsC and most other theories.So the theoretical explanation as proposed by the NASA paper is already obsolete? Sorry, my theoretical background isn't strong, that implication wasn't obvious to me.
Quote from: oyzw on 11/30/2016 06:56 amQuote from: PotomacNeuron on 11/30/2016 06:34 amQuote from: TheTraveller on 11/30/2016 05:16 amQuote from: PotomacNeuron on 11/29/2016 01:32 pmOn the opposite to your impression, mine is that NASA will make announcement to keep itself away from EmDrive soon.I agree with that assessment as otherwise they would have renewed Paul's contract and properly funded EW to build a next generation 100mN thruster that can exceed Ion drive efficiency. But then maybe that would upset a lot of other electric propulsion projects NASA is funding?BTW what is your take on the stronger and reversed thrust direction when Paul tested the same frustum, torsion pendulum position and wiring position but without the dielectric? Surely removing the dielectric could not reverse and increase the strength of any Lorentz force?https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40959.msg1614369#msg1614369If you note on the images, Paul did measure the Lorentz force (which didn't change) and used it to calc the resultant no Lorentz force values, being 2.0uN/W with dielectric big to small and 3.85uN/W small to big no dielectric. Note the direction of the force arrows in the 2 images.To me this strongly says the forces that Paul measured are not the result of Lorentz forces, which for sure are there, were measured and the raw force values were adjusted for the Lorentz background forces.The question is how to build a 100mN thruster when the validity of 100uN result is still in question.When you are still arguing, I have been anxiously waiting for the space EMDRIVE test data in our country.My info is the Chinese EmDrive space test is a non cryo EmDrive designed and tested on Earth by Prof Yang and a new Chinese engineering team.So those who wrote and posted Prof Yang had retired were posting not correct data.
Quote from: PotomacNeuron on 11/30/2016 06:34 amQuote from: TheTraveller on 11/30/2016 05:16 amQuote from: PotomacNeuron on 11/29/2016 01:32 pmOn the opposite to your impression, mine is that NASA will make announcement to keep itself away from EmDrive soon.I agree with that assessment as otherwise they would have renewed Paul's contract and properly funded EW to build a next generation 100mN thruster that can exceed Ion drive efficiency. But then maybe that would upset a lot of other electric propulsion projects NASA is funding?BTW what is your take on the stronger and reversed thrust direction when Paul tested the same frustum, torsion pendulum position and wiring position but without the dielectric? Surely removing the dielectric could not reverse and increase the strength of any Lorentz force?https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40959.msg1614369#msg1614369If you note on the images, Paul did measure the Lorentz force (which didn't change) and used it to calc the resultant no Lorentz force values, being 2.0uN/W with dielectric big to small and 3.85uN/W small to big no dielectric. Note the direction of the force arrows in the 2 images.To me this strongly says the forces that Paul measured are not the result of Lorentz forces, which for sure are there, were measured and the raw force values were adjusted for the Lorentz background forces.The question is how to build a 100mN thruster when the validity of 100uN result is still in question.When you are still arguing, I have been anxiously waiting for the space EMDRIVE test data in our country.
Quote from: TheTraveller on 11/30/2016 05:16 amQuote from: PotomacNeuron on 11/29/2016 01:32 pmOn the opposite to your impression, mine is that NASA will make announcement to keep itself away from EmDrive soon.I agree with that assessment as otherwise they would have renewed Paul's contract and properly funded EW to build a next generation 100mN thruster that can exceed Ion drive efficiency. But then maybe that would upset a lot of other electric propulsion projects NASA is funding?BTW what is your take on the stronger and reversed thrust direction when Paul tested the same frustum, torsion pendulum position and wiring position but without the dielectric? Surely removing the dielectric could not reverse and increase the strength of any Lorentz force?https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40959.msg1614369#msg1614369If you note on the images, Paul did measure the Lorentz force (which didn't change) and used it to calc the resultant no Lorentz force values, being 2.0uN/W with dielectric big to small and 3.85uN/W small to big no dielectric. Note the direction of the force arrows in the 2 images.To me this strongly says the forces that Paul measured are not the result of Lorentz forces, which for sure are there, were measured and the raw force values were adjusted for the Lorentz background forces.The question is how to build a 100mN thruster when the validity of 100uN result is still in question.
Quote from: PotomacNeuron on 11/29/2016 01:32 pmOn the opposite to your impression, mine is that NASA will make announcement to keep itself away from EmDrive soon.I agree with that assessment as otherwise they would have renewed Paul's contract and properly funded EW to build a next generation 100mN thruster that can exceed Ion drive efficiency. But then maybe that would upset a lot of other electric propulsion projects NASA is funding?BTW what is your take on the stronger and reversed thrust direction when Paul tested the same frustum, torsion pendulum position and wiring position but without the dielectric? Surely removing the dielectric could not reverse and increase the strength of any Lorentz force?https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40959.msg1614369#msg1614369If you note on the images, Paul did measure the Lorentz force (which didn't change) and used it to calc the resultant no Lorentz force values, being 2.0uN/W with dielectric big to small and 3.85uN/W small to big no dielectric. Note the direction of the force arrows in the 2 images.To me this strongly says the forces that Paul measured are not the result of Lorentz forces, which for sure are there, were measured and the raw force values were adjusted for the Lorentz background forces.
On the opposite to your impression, mine is that NASA will make announcement to keep itself away from EmDrive soon.
Quote from: CorvusCorax on 11/30/2016 12:29 pmQuote from: Willem Staal on 11/30/2016 12:04 pm looks like a old fahioned spacerace.. Shall i begin to save for a flying car ? Just hypothetically, what happens if everyone flies around in those? With thrust forces in the kilonewton range. If the EM drive creates its acceleration by "pushing against the quantum vacuum", would that yield measurable residual effects for matter riding the wake of an em drive? Like thrust fluctuations in another EM drive flying directly behind a first one, or measurable forces on masses that are placed in the thrust vector? Or spacetime distortions and eddies, like some proposed warp drive designs would create?Could the presence and operation of an EM drive be detected from a distance?(I know I'm mixing a lot of concepts here that have nothing directly to do with each other. Just food for thoughts)Is quantum vacuum(QV) local(Is it even correct wording?)? I mean relative to sun alone we are moving 30km/s so if it's not 'local' we literally fly through QV at high speeds that there shouln't be much disturbance because a second later the QV we 'disturbed' is not even on earth anymore.
Quote from: meberbs on 11/30/2016 06:03 amQuote from: TheTraveller on 11/30/2016 05:16 amQuote from: PotomacNeuron on 11/29/2016 01:32 pmOn the opposite to your impression, mine is that NASA will make announcement to keep itself away from EmDrive soon.I agree with that assessment as otherwise they would have renewed Paul's contract and properly funded EW to build a next generation 100mN thruster that can exceed Ion drive efficiency. But then maybe that would upset a lot of other electric propulsion projects NASA is funding?I know you think that somehow the emDrive is 100% proven, but to most scientists it still looks like experimental errors are the most likely cause of any positive results. Any lack of funding is because they still haven't produced a signal that stands out from the noise (what EW measured was smaller than the thermal effects, and could easily be due to a different thermal effect with a different time constant.) Given the lack of conclusive results and the remaining high probability that this is still just experimental error, it would make sense that funding would go to technologies that have a reasonable chance at success due to their better chance of success and not because of some petty politics.Your opinion is incorrect as it has always been. Would suggest you spend intellect time on theory development instead of wasted time on stating EmDrive can't work because of X.EmDrive works today as well as it worked in 1989 as per Roger's 1st patent.
Quote from: TheTraveller on 11/30/2016 05:16 amQuote from: PotomacNeuron on 11/29/2016 01:32 pmOn the opposite to your impression, mine is that NASA will make announcement to keep itself away from EmDrive soon.I agree with that assessment as otherwise they would have renewed Paul's contract and properly funded EW to build a next generation 100mN thruster that can exceed Ion drive efficiency. But then maybe that would upset a lot of other electric propulsion projects NASA is funding?I know you think that somehow the emDrive is 100% proven, but to most scientists it still looks like experimental errors are the most likely cause of any positive results. Any lack of funding is because they still haven't produced a signal that stands out from the noise (what EW measured was smaller than the thermal effects, and could easily be due to a different thermal effect with a different time constant.) Given the lack of conclusive results and the remaining high probability that this is still just experimental error, it would make sense that funding would go to technologies that have a reasonable chance at success due to their better chance of success and not because of some petty politics.
Quote from: PotomacNeuron on 11/29/2016 01:32 pmOn the opposite to your impression, mine is that NASA will make announcement to keep itself away from EmDrive soon.I agree with that assessment as otherwise they would have renewed Paul's contract and properly funded EW to build a next generation 100mN thruster that can exceed Ion drive efficiency. But then maybe that would upset a lot of other electric propulsion projects NASA is funding?
Thats what I call a bombshell. Can you give us more details? Who? When? Is it in space already? Please share! Is China really that far from the rest of the world?