Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 8  (Read 1646083 times)

Offline rfmwguy

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I don't post or read here much lately, but the last few pages have given me the urge to make a public service announcement for those interested in emdrive discussions: Don't become an SJW:


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Science%20Justice%20Warrior

I'll see myself out now...

Offline rq3

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I don't post or read here much lately, but the last few pages have given me the urge to make a public service announcement for those interested in emdrive discussions: Don't become an SJW:


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Science%20Justice%20Warrior

I'll see myself out now...
Methinks you need a more Machevellian worldview. Historically, that's how humans tend to work. Good luck, be well, and many thanks for the massive efforts you have made on the experimental side of the Emdrive. Personally, I hope to see here the results of your design promised for 2017.

Offline deltaV

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In Figure 7:
When the calibration pulse is turned on there's an impulsive shift in the displacement that takes around 5 seconds. When the calibration pulse is turned off there's an impulsive shift in the displacement that takes about 10 seconds. When the RF is turned on there's an impulsive shift in the displacement that takes around 20 seconds. When the RF is turned off no impulsive shift is visible (or it takes minutes and is obscured by the thermal displacement). What happened to the RF-off impulsive shift?

DeltaV:

Question: "What happened to the RF-off impulsive shift?"

Look at the attached slide-2 and try to understand what the superposition of an impulsive signal with a thermally induced torque pendulum (TP) center of gravity (cg) signal can look like when the thrust signal is about 1/3 of the magnitude of the value of the TP cg-shift signal at the time of RF turn-off.  Of course the impulsive turn-off signal is swallowed or buried by the TP cg-shift signal as shown in the report's figure-5 and in the below repeat of same slide-2_Answer slide.  It's just a graphic addition problem...

Thanks for the explanation. I'd missed the significance of Figure 5.

That explanation seems implausible to me for two reasons.

1. It takes about 15 seconds from the time when the RF was half off until the displacement intersects the extrapolated thermal baseline. This means that the displacement induced by the RF thrust takes at least 15 seconds to disappear. This is much slower than the ~5 second response to the calibration pulses. Why are the time constants different?

2. In Figure 18 the derivative of the displacement responds almost instantly to the RF being turned off. Your explanation of Figure 7 requires the thermal drift displacement's derivative to lag the RF being turned off by ~15 seconds. Why does the thermal drift have a lag in one case but not the other?

[Edit: the Reddit link a few posts below this post has redditor emdriventodrink emphasizing this issue.]
« Last Edit: 11/27/2016 04:09 am by deltaV »

Offline PotomacNeuron

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I have just drawn a Lorentz force causing ground loop that exists in the AIAA paper. The top answer by user "emdriventodrink" in another forum's physics section argued convincingly that most of the effect was likely thermal,

https://np.reddit.com/r/Physics/comments/5ewj86/so_nasas_em_drive_paper_is_officially_published/

Here I complement that argument for the possible explanation of the residue faster effect. It could be Lorentz. Because the components are "extensively" grounded, multiple return paths for the power supply may exist, which can form ground loops. In this drawing, I illustrate a likely one. Of course there could exist other ground loops. Those ground loops can interfere with magnetic field of the Earth or from the magnetic damper.

« Last Edit: 11/27/2016 02:56 am by PotomacNeuron »
I am working on the ultimate mission human beings are made for.

Offline deltaV

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The 80W columns in Table 2 and Table 3 appear to have one cluster of points near 72 uN and another near 118 uN. This is far more variation than explained by the 6 uN of error tabulated in Table 1. This shows that there's some unexplained source of error with magnitude that's at least ~half in size of the claimed thrust. Without understanding the source of this unexpected error there's no way to rule out the null hypothesis that there's no actual thrust.

Particle physicists typically require that a new particle detection event to exceed 5 sigma before they believe it. Without a good understanding of the sources of error one can't say precisely how many sigmas this result is but it's clearly less than 5. Therefore I consider the most likely explanation of this paper to be some mundane error, not new physics.
« Last Edit: 11/27/2016 04:07 am by deltaV »

Offline Bob012345

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Quote

Well, how else would Mill describe his work if he leads the field as the first hydrino scientist since he discovered the concept?



Since it was discovered, if it is real serious stuff i'd imagine that more people would join the research as it promise so much technological advances. When you're the only one to research something for decades, is very probable that this something doesn't have so much evidence.
This is a good thought that I have applied it to both shawyers and Woodward's efforts. Shawyers recently has been picked up by others, Woodward's I am not so sure. Regardless, shawyers emdrive appears to be yielding more replication efforts at much higher force levels...mN compared to microN.

 NASA's Eagle Works DID NOT measure milliNewtons of thrust. They measured microNewtons of purported thrust with a microwave input of 40 to 80 watts, extrapolated to roughly 1.2 milliNewtons per kilowatt of microwave input. Just for scale, 1.2 milliNewtons is roughly 1/50 the weight of a United States coin referred to as a nickel. The EW results require 1 kilowatt of EFFECTIVE (applied) microwave energy to offset 1/50 the mass of that small coin.

And folks don't think this just might be thermal or other artifact?

I have a flying car for sale. It will be on Ebay in the second quarter of 2017. No, wait, the first quarter of 2018. No, wait...

No, the NASA team says it's probably not thermal or artifact and I think they are in a better position to know more about it that you do.

Offline ThinkerX

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Doctor Rodal mentioned something a few days (and a dozen pages or so ago) that seems to have gotten lost in debates since then:

A SECOND Estes confab, apparently slated for this December.  His mention was the first I'd heard of this event.

So...

1 - When is the conference slated to happen?

2 - Rodal mentioned a lengthy, 40+ page paper apparently focusing on Woodward's theory.  Who else is participating?  What papers are slated for presentation? Will Todd present his latest theory?  Will Shell at long last reveal some of her results?  Will Paul March be able to make an appearance?  Will Monomorphic be able to attend this time? 

3 - Did the video team that documented the last Estes meeting ever finish their work?  Sort of dropped off the radar, there.

Offline WarpTech

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Doctor Rodal mentioned something a few days (and a dozen pages or so ago) that seems to have gotten lost in debates since then:

A SECOND Estes confab, apparently slated for this December.  His mention was the first I'd heard of this event.

So...

1 - When is the conference slated to happen?

2 - Rodal mentioned a lengthy, 40+ page paper apparently focusing on Woodward's theory.  Who else is participating?  What papers are slated for presentation? Will Todd present his latest theory?  Will Shell at long last reveal some of her results?  Will Paul March be able to make an appearance?  Will Monomorphic be able to attend this time? 

3 - Did the video team that documented the last Estes meeting ever finish their work?  Sort of dropped off the radar, there.

No, you are mistaken, there is no conference in December. The proceedings from the workshop we had in September will be released in December or early January, along with the videos, as soon as they are done putting it all together. Dr. Rodal is working on the paper that was presented in that workshop, for those proceedings.
« Last Edit: 11/27/2016 04:53 am by WarpTech »

Offline WarpTech

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Good questions!

"... can we convert that to a phase derivative and compute the change per cycle? That would save time and steady state operation is really what we're after right?"

I would agree that the derivative per cycle, or half-cycle even would be preferable, but "steady state" would be a pulsed, repetitive input signal they way Shawyer does it.

"How do Q (and dampening factor) vary with time if the drive is at steady state?"

Haha, they don't! It should only thrust when charging and discharging. The magnetic flux into and out of the system is the momentum per unit charge.

"Is the mass density referring the air inside the cavity?"

No, it is referring to the EM mass density, but later I used Reactive Energy/c2, the (mass) energy stored and not dissipated.

"If this was vacuum would there be an undefined velocity vector potential?"

Yes! This is the gravito-magnetic vector potential. It's not undefined because I am equating this with the magnetic vector potential, at high Q.

"What does relative voltage potential mean, relative to what?"

It is relative to the status of the magnetic flux inside the circumference of the circle, the integral of the electric field around 2pi*r. If the magnetic flux is not increasing or decreasing, then the voltage potential around this loop is zero "0". If the flux is increasing or decreasing there is voltage, and if it that change is accelerating, there is divergence.

"Are we ultimately after momentum density?"

We are after the momentum density normal to the unit area, through the big end as one integral, and through the rest of the frustum as the other integral. Preferably expressed as a difference between the two, where the damping factor can be different in each integral.

That would express the thrust forward or backward, as positive or negative numbers, or 0.

The divergence of the force would be the time derivative.

OK interesting! I'll be able to work on it Monday after 5 EST and ill come up with more questions when I get stuck  :)

I tried to make the parallels as clear as possible in the image below. Looking forward to seeing if this works.

« Last Edit: 11/27/2016 04:56 am by WarpTech »

Offline Bob Woods

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As probably the ONLY Political Scientist on this site, I'd just like to say everybody can have an opinion about what folks think. But I prefer data, and I especially prefer data related to resonance modes in a frustum.

Can we return to the topic?

Thanks in advance, Bob.
« Last Edit: 11/27/2016 05:00 am by Bob Woods »

Offline ThinkerX

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Quote
No, you are mistaken, there is no conference in December. The proceedings from the workshop we had in September will be released in December or early January, along with the videos, as soon as they are done putting it all together. Dr. Rodal is working on the paper that was presented in that workshop, for those proceedings

Thank you for clarifying that.


Offline HMXHMX

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We're more than 90% done with the Estes Park workshop video/audio clean up, transcriptions and most presentations or proceedings layout (I'm not 100% sure about the last category since I'm only an observer, not doing the work).  People are off traveling for the U.S. Thanksgiving holiday, so little has been done this week, but files should be ready for posting on the SSI site this month, perhaps within the next two weeks.  I'll make an announcement in this forum when that occurs.

Thanks for everyone's patience. 

Offline TheTraveller

Quote

Well, how else would Mill describe his work if he leads the field as the first hydrino scientist since he discovered the concept?



Since it was discovered, if it is real serious stuff i'd imagine that more people would join the research as it promise so much technological advances. When you're the only one to research something for decades, is very probable that this something doesn't have so much evidence.
This is a good thought that I have applied it to both shawyers and Woodward's efforts. Shawyers recently has been picked up by others, Woodward's I am not so sure. Regardless, shawyers emdrive appears to be yielding more replication efforts at much higher force levels...mN compared to microN.

 NASA's Eagle Works DID NOT measure milliNewtons of thrust. They measured microNewtons of purported thrust with a microwave input of 40 to 80 watts, extrapolated to roughly 1.2 milliNewtons per kilowatt of microwave input. Just for scale, 1.2 milliNewtons is roughly 1/50 the weight of a United States coin referred to as a nickel. The EW results require 1 kilowatt of EFFECTIVE (applied) microwave energy to offset 1/50 the mass of that small coin.

And folks don't think this just might be thermal or other artifact?

I have a flying car for sale. It will be on Ebay in the second quarter of 2017. No, wait, the first quarter of 2018. No, wait...

The PLL freq control that NASA used with the vac tests could not be relied on to find the optimal freq for best resonance. It approximated the freq but could not measure it.

Following the vac tests, NASA built a min reflected power freq tracker that is very much superior at quickly finding and tracking best freq as the frustum warms up.

Which means sometime they may have gotten lucky and had a good freq at the get go or not. And then maybe sometime later it either wandered into lock or wandered out of lock.

Point being don't assume the frustum was driven at the best freq at power on, midway through the power pulse or at the end because it probably was not.

That is not an excuse, it is the reality of the limited ability they had back in 2015 to quickly lock to and hold resonance.

As an example, attached is a very clear and sharp impulse from the EmDrive, where the thermal slope and it's slow rise time are clearly shown
« Last Edit: 11/27/2016 06:06 am by TheTraveller »
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline Stormbringer

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Science has room for surprises left in it. Otherwise we would not be reading things like this:

http://phys.org/news/2016-11-na64-mysterious-dark-photon.html

Not saying there are such things... But there could be.
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline therealjjj77

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Science has room for surprises left in it. Otherwise we would not be reading things like this:

http://phys.org/news/2016-11-na64-mysterious-dark-photon.html

Not saying there are such things... But there could be.

So true. But regarding dark matter, I think it will be a laughable matter 10 years from now. It has never been found. It was only theoretically predicted in an attempt to explain an accelerating expansion of the Universe.

Bringing this back around, I believe that the same phenomenon being observed in the EM Drive is related to the accelerated expansion of the Universe. In fact, I believe them to be the very same phenomenon.

Offline TheTraveller

For all those born as an Engineer, you know this is true.

The Knack. The Curse of the Engineer.
« Last Edit: 11/27/2016 07:36 am by TheTraveller »
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline meberbs

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Are you claiming that providing widely accepted definitions is a point of authority argument?

The only place he speaks on behalf of every physicist is "Every physicist dreams of that Nobel prize that comes from discovering some new phenomenon that contradicts known theory." Obviously people all have different motivations, but this checking on this statement would be like asking lottery players "would you like to win the lottery?" Even the ones who understand that they do not have a real chance of winning would say yes.
"Widely accepted" is the slippery slope. It might be in your home, on your block, at your work, in your county, ad nauseum. It's my recommendation not to attack others for posting styles like your own. There are thousands commenting on the emdrive in about every language. Google it sometimes then use translate. The OP you challenged has commentary points I've read many times elsewhere. Check it for yourself. EmDrive is a leading concept to break free of rocket limitations.
Go back and read the definitions that Chris Wilson provided, if you seriously think there is something not widely accepted about them, then provide an alternative.

You seem to have completely lost perspective on a few things including what the conversation was about. This was about someone claiming to speak for the American tax payer, so you have lost me as to why non-English language sources would be relevant. You have yet to support the accusation you just made claiming I have made such egregious statements the way the OP did where he claims to speak for all American taxpayers.

Offline rfmwguy

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I don't post or read here much lately, but the last few pages have given me the urge to make a public service announcement for those interested in emdrive discussions: Don't become an SJW:


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Science%20Justice%20Warrior

I'll see myself out now...
Methinks you need a more Machevellian worldview. Historically, that's how humans tend to work. Good luck, be well, and many thanks for the massive efforts you have made on the experimental side of the Emdrive. Personally, I hope to see here the results of your design promised for 2017.
Lol, you are probably right. Fighting for public monies is an art. I've seen far better players than myself here and elsewhere.

I do have a pre-announcement about 1701B and 2017 plans. 2 things are on the horizon for me and emdrive development next year.

#1 is a plan for someone to take over my build on the 1701B frustum for validation testing and eventual space launch. Very exciting and I'll know more in December. I may not be able to discuss specifics other than the project is a go.

#2 is potentially as exciting. Taking what I've learned over these past couple of years and begin designing, building and testing a much higher force producing engine. A totally new configuration.

This would be ideal to stage it in 2 steps like this. Get into the space race in 2017 with 1701B followed by a more powerful 1701C down the road. Nothing locked in yet but am jazzed about the possibilities

With the aiaa paper released, my own observations as well as those of trusted colleagues, I'm convinced the emdrive is the most likely pathway to interstellar exploration as it now stands. Other concepts rely on propellant or are just too low of a force production to be useful in this regard.

I'll be back some day with an update, hopefully soon.

Offline TheTraveller

I don't post or read here much lately, but the last few pages have given me the urge to make a public service announcement for those interested in emdrive discussions: Don't become an SJW:


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Science%20Justice%20Warrior

I'll see myself out now...
Methinks you need a more Machevellian worldview. Historically, that's how humans tend to work. Good luck, be well, and many thanks for the massive efforts you have made on the experimental side of the Emdrive. Personally, I hope to see here the results of your design promised for 2017.
Lol, you are probably right. Fighting for public monies is an art. I've seen far better players than myself here and elsewhere.

I do have a pre-announcement about 1701B and 2017 plans. 2 things are on the horizon for me and emdrive development next year.

#1 is a plan for someone to take over my build on the 1701B frustum for validation testing and eventual space launch. Very exciting and I'll know more in December. I may not be able to discuss specifics other than the project is a go.

#2 is potentially as exciting. Taking what I've learned over these past couple of years and begin designing, building and testing a much higher force producing engine. A totally new configuration.

This would be ideal to stage it in 2 steps like this. Get into the space race in 2017 with 1701B followed by a more powerful 1701C down the road. Nothing locked in yet but am jazzed about the possibilities

With the aiaa paper released, my own observations as well as those of trusted colleagues, I'm convinced the emdrive is the most likely pathway to interstellar exploration as it now stands. Other concepts rely on propellant or are just too low of a force production to be useful in this regard.

I'll be back some day with an update, hopefully soon.

Good luck Dave.

See you in LEO or further out.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline therealjjj77

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Have any of the tests on EMDrive been performed with maintaining a vacuum inside of the frustrum?

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