Quote from: birchoff on 02/07/2015 04:50 pmQuote from: Star-Drive on 02/07/2015 04:01 pmRodal:As a follow up to my previous post and in the spirit of open disclosure, I'm including our last null-thrust test that ran the RF amp at 10.0Adc while its RF power was being dissipated in a 100W, 50 ohm dummy load positioned in place of the test article on the torque pendulum (TP), a picture of the new heat shields for our torque pendulum's upper and lower torsion springs, (more belts and suspenders to mitigate thermal drifts in the TP baseline), the reversed test setup drawing and the best reversed thrust plot obtained just before or during when our second and last 120W max RF amplifier was dying from internal corona discharges around its RF output circulator. Apparently the RF amp's internal gas pressure had gone down from 1 Bar to an estimated 10 Torr or less after a few days leaking air in a hard vacuum. And 0.1-to-10.0 Torr is where glow discharges are the easiest to ignite with RF signals. So much for EMPower's "hermetic" sealed RF amplifiers...Best, Paul MarchFirst off congratulations, and thank you very much for the information. One question though. The use of a dummy load to the best of my understanding provides evidence to support that the thrust measurement device is not generating false positive data. Is it possible to run the Frustum in a null configuration? If so, is that in the plans before the next report is published?Birchoff:"Is it possible to run the Frustum in a null configuration? If so, is that in the plans before the next report is published?"Yes and yes. In fact it was one of the requests made by the blue ribbon panel of PhDs that NASA/EP hired to review the Eagleworks Lab's theoretical and experimental work last summer. Even if will take a new mounting arrangement to get it accomplished. Overall though the blue ribbon panel's experimentalists appeared to be pleased with our previous and upcoming lab work. However they ripped into Sonny's QVF/MHD conjecture because it relies on the quantum vacuum being mutable and engineer-able whereas the current physics mainstream thinks that the quantum vacuum is an immutable ground energy state of the universe that can-NOT be used to convey energy or momentum as proposed by Dr. White. However they brushed aside Sonny's QVF based derivation of the Bohr hydrogen atom electron radius as a "mathematical coincidence" and didn't have a word to say what the Casimir effect and other quantum vacuum phenomenon were caused by, that can only occur only if the QV is mutable and can convey energy and momentum. So Sonny and Jerry Vera took it upon themselves last fall to increase this mathematical coincidence from one to more than 47 times as they explored the QV created atomic electron shell radii for atoms up to atomic number 7 all based on the QV being the root cause for all of it including the origins of the electron and all other subatomic particles. BTW, IMO Jim Woodward's Mach-Effect (M-E) conjecture that is based primarily on SRT and GRT, is still in the running for a way to explain his and our test results to date. However the M-E also has its detractors since it requires that instantaneous Wheeler/Feynman radiation reaction forces being required between a local time varying mass and all the other mass/energy in the casually connected universe, since this mechanism is used to balance the M-E's energy & momentum conservation books. In the end analysis though I think that the ME will rest on the quantum nature of space-time, since in Woodward's eyes the gravitational field IS space-time, and in our eyes GRT's space-time is in reality the quantum vacuum that probably has at least 4 spatial dimensions and one time dimension! Best, Paul March
Quote from: Star-Drive on 02/07/2015 04:01 pmRodal:As a follow up to my previous post and in the spirit of open disclosure, I'm including our last null-thrust test that ran the RF amp at 10.0Adc while its RF power was being dissipated in a 100W, 50 ohm dummy load positioned in place of the test article on the torque pendulum (TP), a picture of the new heat shields for our torque pendulum's upper and lower torsion springs, (more belts and suspenders to mitigate thermal drifts in the TP baseline), the reversed test setup drawing and the best reversed thrust plot obtained just before or during when our second and last 120W max RF amplifier was dying from internal corona discharges around its RF output circulator. Apparently the RF amp's internal gas pressure had gone down from 1 Bar to an estimated 10 Torr or less after a few days leaking air in a hard vacuum. And 0.1-to-10.0 Torr is where glow discharges are the easiest to ignite with RF signals. So much for EMPower's "hermetic" sealed RF amplifiers...Best, Paul MarchFirst off congratulations, and thank you very much for the information. One question though. The use of a dummy load to the best of my understanding provides evidence to support that the thrust measurement device is not generating false positive data. Is it possible to run the Frustum in a null configuration? If so, is that in the plans before the next report is published?
Rodal:As a follow up to my previous post and in the spirit of open disclosure, I'm including our last null-thrust test that ran the RF amp at 10.0Adc while its RF power was being dissipated in a 100W, 50 ohm dummy load positioned in place of the test article on the torque pendulum (TP), a picture of the new heat shields for our torque pendulum's upper and lower torsion springs, (more belts and suspenders to mitigate thermal drifts in the TP baseline), the reversed test setup drawing and the best reversed thrust plot obtained just before or during when our second and last 120W max RF amplifier was dying from internal corona discharges around its RF output circulator. Apparently the RF amp's internal gas pressure had gone down from 1 Bar to an estimated 10 Torr or less after a few days leaking air in a hard vacuum. And 0.1-to-10.0 Torr is where glow discharges are the easiest to ignite with RF signals. So much for EMPower's "hermetic" sealed RF amplifiers...Best, Paul March
Thank you for the very interesting information about the "blue ribbon panel of PhDs that NASA/EP hired to review the Eagleworks Lab's theoretical and experimental work last summer." This is very relevant information to EM Drive Developments.Paul, in your absence, the prior thread on EM Drives was derailed by polemical discussion of Woodward's Mach-Effect (M-E) conjecture (more info here: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29276.msg1301657#msg1301657 ). To avoid such issues, it may be preferable to continue discussion of that conjecture (Woodward's Mach-Effect) can be pursued at this thread, dedicated exclusively to Woodward's Mach-Effect: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31037.460 )
Quote from: Rodal on 02/07/2015 06:44 pmThank you for the very interesting information about the "blue ribbon panel of PhDs that NASA/EP hired to review the Eagleworks Lab's theoretical and experimental work last summer." This is very relevant information to EM Drive Developments.Paul, in your absence, the prior thread on EM Drives was derailed by polemical discussion of Woodward's Mach-Effect (M-E) conjecture (more info here: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29276.msg1301657#msg1301657 ). To avoid such issues, it may be preferable to continue discussion of that conjecture (Woodward's Mach-Effect) can be pursued at this thread, dedicated exclusively to Woodward's Mach-Effect: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31037.460 )Sorry, I didn't know that Jim Woodward's work had become a hot potato, so I'll go to the M-E thread if the M-E topic comes up again.Best, PM
Indeed we are all very delighted to hear from you Paul. This thread, and thread 1 has been a fury of activity trying to explore this proposition that we can possibly achieve all electric thrust in the vacuum of space without carrying propellant, and what it all means for science and humanity's future. Given the reported results in vacuum, this is progress.Patiently looking forward to reading "Anomalous Thrust Production from an RF Test Device Measured on a Low-Thrust Torsion Pendulum"
Quote from: Star-Drive on 02/07/2015 06:17 pmQuote from: birchoff on 02/07/2015 04:50 pmQuote from: Star-Drive on 02/07/2015 04:01 pmRodal:As a follow up to my previous post and in the spirit of open disclosure, I'm including our last null-thrust test that ran the RF amp at 10.0Adc while its RF power was being dissipated in a 100W, 50 ohm dummy load positioned in place of the test article on the torque pendulum (TP), a picture of the new heat shields for our torque pendulum's upper and lower torsion springs, (more belts and suspenders to mitigate thermal drifts in the TP baseline), the reversed test setup drawing and the best reversed thrust plot obtained just before or during when our second and last 120W max RF amplifier was dying from internal corona discharges around its RF output circulator. Apparently the RF amp's internal gas pressure had gone down from 1 Bar to an estimated 10 Torr or less after a few days leaking air in a hard vacuum. And 0.1-to-10.0 Torr is where glow discharges are the easiest to ignite with RF signals. So much for EMPower's "hermetic" sealed RF amplifiers...Best, Paul MarchFirst off congratulations, and thank you very much for the information. One question though. The use of a dummy load to the best of my understanding provides evidence to support that the thrust measurement device is not generating false positive data. Is it possible to run the Frustum in a null configuration? If so, is that in the plans before the next report is published?Birchoff:"Is it possible to run the Frustum in a null configuration? If so, is that in the plans before the next report is published?"Yes and yes. In fact it was one of the requests made by the blue ribbon panel of PhDs that NASA/EP hired to review the Eagleworks Lab's theoretical and experimental work last summer. Even if will take a new mounting arrangement to get it accomplished. Overall though the blue ribbon panel's experimentalists appeared to be pleased with our previous and upcoming lab work. However they ripped into Sonny's QVF/MHD conjecture because it relies on the quantum vacuum being mutable and engineer-able whereas the current physics mainstream thinks that the quantum vacuum is an immutable ground energy state of the universe that can-NOT be used to convey energy or momentum as proposed by Dr. White. However they brushed aside Sonny's QVF based derivation of the Bohr hydrogen atom electron radius as a "mathematical coincidence" and didn't have a word to say what the Casimir effect and other quantum vacuum phenomenon were caused by, that can only occur only if the QV is mutable and can convey energy and momentum. So Sonny and Jerry Vera took it upon themselves last fall to increase this mathematical coincidence from one to more than 47 times as they explored the QV created atomic electron shell radii for atoms up to atomic number 7 all based on the QV being the root cause for all of it including the origins of the electron and all other subatomic particles. BTW, IMO Jim Woodward's Mach-Effect (M-E) conjecture that is based primarily on SRT and GRT, is still in the running for a way to explain his and our test results to date. However the M-E also has its detractors since it requires that instantaneous Wheeler/Feynman radiation reaction forces being required between a local time varying mass and all the other mass/energy in the casually connected universe, since this mechanism is used to balance the M-E's energy & momentum conservation books. In the end analysis though I think that the ME will rest on the quantum nature of space-time, since in Woodward's eyes the gravitational field IS space-time, and in our eyes GRT's space-time is in reality the quantum vacuum that probably has at least 4 spatial dimensions and one time dimension! Best, Paul MarchThanks for the insight. what does Dr. White believe he has to do in order to prove or disprove that his conjecture explains the behavior observed when the truncated frustum is energized appropriately? Assuming all the testing currently being done is successful and you get a successful set of replications from other labs. The only thing we would be able to conclusively claim is that the device, built as describes, provides thrust. How does Dr. White plan to show that the device behaves as described by his theory? Also, if Dr. White cannot prove that his theory completely explains the observations, what would be the next steps to find an explanation for the observation? And would we need to have such a theory before we begin using this thing in well defined use cases like ISS or satelite station keeping?
Quote from: birchoff on 02/07/2015 07:25 pmQuote from: Star-Drive on 02/07/2015 06:17 pmQuote from: birchoff on 02/07/2015 04:50 pmQuote from: Star-Drive on 02/07/2015 04:01 pmRodal:As a follow up to my previous post and in the spirit of open disclosure, I'm including our last null-thrust test that ran the RF amp at 10.0Adc while its RF power was being dissipated in a 100W, 50 ohm dummy load positioned in place of the test article on the torque pendulum (TP), a picture of the new heat shields for our torque pendulum's upper and lower torsion springs, (more belts and suspenders to mitigate thermal drifts in the TP baseline), the reversed test setup drawing and the best reversed thrust plot obtained just before or during when our second and last 120W max RF amplifier was dying from internal corona discharges around its RF output circulator. Apparently the RF amp's internal gas pressure had gone down from 1 Bar to an estimated 10 Torr or less after a few days leaking air in a hard vacuum. And 0.1-to-10.0 Torr is where glow discharges are the easiest to ignite with RF signals. So much for EMPower's "hermetic" sealed RF amplifiers...Best, Paul MarchFirst off congratulations, and thank you very much for the information. One question though. The use of a dummy load to the best of my understanding provides evidence to support that the thrust measurement device is not generating false positive data. Is it possible to run the Frustum in a null configuration? If so, is that in the plans before the next report is published?Birchoff:"Is it possible to run the Frustum in a null configuration? If so, is that in the plans before the next report is published?"Yes and yes. In fact it was one of the requests made by the blue ribbon panel of PhDs that NASA/EP hired to review the Eagleworks Lab's theoretical and experimental work last summer. Even if will take a new mounting arrangement to get it accomplished. Overall though the blue ribbon panel's experimentalists appeared to be pleased with our previous and upcoming lab work. However they ripped into Sonny's QVF/MHD conjecture because it relies on the quantum vacuum being mutable and engineer-able whereas the current physics mainstream thinks that the quantum vacuum is an immutable ground energy state of the universe that can-NOT be used to convey energy or momentum as proposed by Dr. White. However they brushed aside Sonny's QVF based derivation of the Bohr hydrogen atom electron radius as a "mathematical coincidence" and didn't have a word to say what the Casimir effect and other quantum vacuum phenomenon were caused by, that can only occur only if the QV is mutable and can convey energy and momentum. So Sonny and Jerry Vera took it upon themselves last fall to increase this mathematical coincidence from one to more than 47 times as they explored the QV created atomic electron shell radii for atoms up to atomic number 7 all based on the QV being the root cause for all of it including the origins of the electron and all other subatomic particles. BTW, IMO Jim Woodward's Mach-Effect (M-E) conjecture that is based primarily on SRT and GRT, is still in the running for a way to explain his and our test results to date. However the M-E also has its detractors since it requires that instantaneous Wheeler/Feynman radiation reaction forces being required between a local time varying mass and all the other mass/energy in the casually connected universe, since this mechanism is used to balance the M-E's energy & momentum conservation books. In the end analysis though I think that the ME will rest on the quantum nature of space-time, since in Woodward's eyes the gravitational field IS space-time, and in our eyes GRT's space-time is in reality the quantum vacuum that probably has at least 4 spatial dimensions and one time dimension! Best, Paul MarchThanks for the insight. what does Dr. White believe he has to do in order to prove or disprove that his conjecture explains the behavior observed when the truncated frustum is energized appropriately? Assuming all the testing currently being done is successful and you get a successful set of replications from other labs. The only thing we would be able to conclusively claim is that the device, built as describes, provides thrust. How does Dr. White plan to show that the device behaves as described by his theory? Also, if Dr. White cannot prove that his theory completely explains the observations, what would be the next steps to find an explanation for the observation? And would we need to have such a theory before we begin using this thing in well defined use cases like ISS or satelite station keeping?Birchoff:"What does Dr. White believe he has to do in order to prove or disprove that his conjecture explains the behavior observed when the truncated frustum is energized appropriately?"Exactly what he and I have been doing. Fleshing out his QVF conjecture in papers for the appropriate peer reviewed journals. He is also continuing the generation of the COMSOL E&M and QVF based C++ plasma code that will allow us to compare the resonant cavity lab results with the QVF based force predictions using the volume integral of the ejected semi-virtual e/p pairs for the resonant cavity geometry in question. We have already performed the first step along this path with the preliminary results I provided in an earlier post today. In that slide which is based on the copper frustum cavity running in its TM212 mode with 50W of 1,937.188 MHz RF power applied, we showed that the predicted thrust that took over 18 hours to run the 150k time samples on an i5 PC, was 54uN and the average for five real data runs at 50W was 55uN. Is that another mathematical coincidence? I don't think so, but we won't know for sure until I have time to compare the rest of the 30W, 40W, and 60W averages on the attached slide with the same computer code that will take 17 hours to run on my lab PC for each additional example. We will also be looking at modeling and comparing the results of the Cannae test articles we tested in 2013 & 2014, along with the Shawyer/Chinese EM-Drive results with and without dielectrics in the resonant cavities. If our plasma code predictions nail all those tests to say within +/-10% of the experimental results then we can start using it to optimize the thrust output of these QVF/MHD based thrusters. BTW, it appears that the dielectric discs may act as QV e/p pair reflectors that aid in the conical frustum shape's force symmetry breaking and force rectification process. Left to its own devices, the QV e/p pair spray generated by the applied RF energy tends to want to go in all directions instead of the desired tightly collimated unidirectional propellant beam that goes in one direction while the thruster back-reacts in the opposite direction according to Newton's third law. Best, Paul March
BTW, it appears that the dielectric discs may act as QV e/p pair reflectors that aid in the conical frustum shape's force symmetry breaking and force rectification process. Left to its own devices, the QV e/p pair spray generated by the applied RF energy tends to want to go in all directions instead of the desired tightly collimated unidirectional propellant beam that goes in one direction while the thruster back-reacts in the opposite direction according to Newton's third law. Best, Paul March
Birchoff:"What does Dr. White believe he has to do in order to prove or disprove that his conjecture explains the behavior observed when the truncated frustum is energized appropriately?"Exactly what he and I have been doing. Fleshing out his QVF conjecture in papers for the appropriate peer reviewed journals. He is also continuing the generation of the COMSOL E&M and QVF based C++ plasma code that will allow us to compare the resonant cavity lab results with the QVF based force predictions using the volume integral of the ejected semi-virtual e/p pairs for the resonant cavity geometry in question. ...
One approach to conserve momentum is to consider spaceitself as the reaction mass. This approach evokes the old ideaof an "ether." To be strictly consistent with empiricalevidence, such as the Michelson-Morely experiment, anyfurther research to revisit the idea of an ether would have toimpose the condition that an ether is electromagneticallyLorentz invariant- Note that this condition is a characteristicof the ZPF [7].
An alternative to considering space as the reaction mass isto further develop Mach's Principle. Mach's Principle assertsthat surrounding matter gives rise to inertial frames, and thatthe inertial frames are somehow connected to the surroundingmatter [9]. Mach wrote that although he felt a connection tothe surrounding matter was required for the property of inertiato be detectable, he also admitted that such a treatment wasnot necessary to satisfactorily describe the laws of motion[20]. Specifically, to be useful for propulsion physics, aformalism of Mach's Principle is required that provides ameans to wansmit reaction forces to surrounding matter. Thisimplies developing a quantitative description for how thesurrounding matter creates an inertial frame, and how pushingagainst that flame with a space drive is actually pushingagainst the distant surrounding matter.
It is also possible to consider the very structure ofspacetime itself as a candidate for propulsive interactions. If itwere possible, for example, to create asymmetries in the veryproperties of spacetime which give rise to inertial frames, itmay be possible to create net inertial forces. This is similarto the"warp drive" suggested by Alcubierre [4]
In that case, the fluctuation-mediated attraction between the atoms becomes orders of magnitude stronger than in free space. Usually, the force decreases rapidly with increasing distance between the atoms. Due to the transmission line, it falls off with one over the distance cubed, instead of one over the seventh power of the distance, as in the usual case.
Either way, I know there is vacuum energy difference in potential from the top to the bottom of the cavity and those relative differences are all that matter. From there, after mathematical conversion to momentum, it doesn't take a mathematician to know that the competing vacuum and RF momentum contributions to the dielectric aren't exactly equal.
Folks:If the quantum vacuum is degradable and malleable as we think it should be, then to conserve momentum a QV wake has to be generated in the QV media as a Q-Thruster goes by just like a ship's propeller leaves a disturbance in the water as it goes by. We think that the density of the QV is normally around its cosmological average of 9.1x10^-27 kg/m^3, but its density can be greatly increased by the presence of E&M fields and especially very strong and fast time-varying E&M fields that occur is microwave resonant cavities with large Quality Factors greater than say 1,000, or around elementary charged particles like electrons or protons where the QV density goes up to nuclear mass density as you approach the surface of the particle. Suggest anything? However in the paper we are now trying to get published with no takers so far, we find that the QV density should drop off very rapidly from a high density volume like a proton and in fact it follows the same drop off in density with distance as the Casimir effect does, i.e., 1 / r^4 where r = the distance from the resonant cavity boundary. With that being the case it would be near impossible to detect the QV wake behind a Q-Thruster only generating milliNewtons or Newtons or even in tens of Newtons. So what's to do? To detect a QV wake from a Q-thruster at even short distances from the source we think we will have to use another RF excited resonant cavity in a form of QV parametric amplification that is designed to produce a high density QV state just like in a Q-Thruster, but not to produce thrust. Instead it will be optimized to monitor its time varying QV density as various very weak QV wake fields come in, are amplified and detected, then pass out of it again to go back to the low density QV state once again. This has some interesting implications especially when you finish reading the attached paper from a PhD from Rice University here in Houston.Last topic for the night for me. Someone on this list asked if one could extract energy from the QV. If the QV is GRT space-time, and space-time is the cosmological gravitational field that is created by all the causally connected mass/energy in our section of the universe, then we live in a high pressure sea of gravitational energy. Now if the QV energy state is degradable and locally changeable, then one can posit the possibility of a thermodynamic energy conversion cycle that can extract energy from a pressure difference created in this QV media relative to the QV background average pressure, with a net decrease in this universal gravitational pressure or temperature reflective of the amount of energy so extracted. And try to remember that gravitational energy is negative energy. I'll leave the rest to you folks to draw your own conclusions from what this might mean...Best, Paul March
Quote from: Star-Drive on 02/08/2015 03:12 amFolks:If the quantum vacuum is degradable and malleable as we think it should be, then to conserve momentum a QV wake has to be generated in the QV media as a Q-Thruster goes by just like a ship's propeller leaves a disturbance in the water as it goes by. We think that the density of the QV is normally around its cosmological average of 9.1x10^-27 kg/m^3, but its density can be greatly increased by the presence of E&M fields and especially very strong and fast time-varying E&M fields that occur is microwave resonant cavities with large Quality Factors greater than say 1,000, or around elementary charged particles like electrons or protons where the QV density goes up to nuclear mass density as you approach the surface of the particle. Suggest anything? However in the paper we are now trying to get published with no takers so far, we find that the QV density should drop off very rapidly from a high density volume like a proton and in fact it follows the same drop off in density with distance as the Casimir effect does, i.e., 1 / r^4 where r = the distance from the resonant cavity boundary. With that being the case it would be near impossible to detect the QV wake behind a Q-Thruster only generating milliNewtons or Newtons or even in tens of Newtons. So what's to do? To detect a QV wake from a Q-thruster at even short distances from the source we think we will have to use another RF excited resonant cavity in a form of QV parametric amplification that is designed to produce a high density QV state just like in a Q-Thruster, but not to produce thrust. Instead it will be optimized to monitor its time varying QV density as various very weak QV wake fields come in, are amplified and detected, then pass out of it again to go back to the low density QV state once again. This has some interesting implications especially when you finish reading the attached paper from a PhD from Rice University here in Houston.Last topic for the night for me. Someone on this list asked if one could extract energy from the QV. If the QV is GRT space-time, and space-time is the cosmological gravitational field that is created by all the causally connected mass/energy in our section of the universe, then we live in a high pressure sea of gravitational energy. Now if the QV energy state is degradable and locally changeable, then one can posit the possibility of a thermodynamic energy conversion cycle that can extract energy from a pressure difference created in this QV media relative to the QV background average pressure, with a net decrease in this universal gravitational pressure or temperature reflective of the amount of energy so extracted. And try to remember that gravitational energy is negative energy. I'll leave the rest to you folks to draw your own conclusions from what this might mean...Best, Paul MarchThank you for participating in the forum Paul. As far as the paper goes, why not publish publicly and let your peers see it and validate it without the "Star Chamber" reviewers?Regarding the QV wake, does measuring it really matter in terms of validity if tens of Newtons of thrust (or more) are predictably being measured? [Serious question]As to your third to last sentence. Woah!!!.......