Author Topic: Griffin Quotes from Shuttle Summit  (Read 3680 times)

Offline kcowing

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Griffin Quotes from Shuttle Summit
« on: 11/22/2005 03:10 pm »
http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/2005/11/griffin_quotes.html
Griffin Quotes from Shuttle Summit

Editor's note: The following is taken from a Powerpoint presentation circulating at NASA KSC. The quotes are from a shuttle summit held at NASA KSC last week.

Offline Orbiter Obvious

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RE: Griffin Quotes from Shuttle Summit
« Reply #1 on: 11/22/2005 07:47 pm »
Is that Griffin being a little arrogant with a rewording of saying the STS was a mistake, again?

Offline Spacely

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RE: Griffin Quotes from Shuttle Summit
« Reply #2 on: 11/22/2005 07:55 pm »
Probably, but he's a helluva lot more interesting to read than O'Keefe. He's like Goldin, but with a big wacky vision instead of lots of little wacky visions.

Online Chris Bergin

RE: Griffin Quotes from Shuttle Summit
« Reply #3 on: 11/22/2005 08:32 pm »
I kinda liked O'Keefe. He had a tradegy during his administration - and that's going to make a mess of anyone's time at the helm, but I heard the guy literally worked every day, and long days too.

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Offline swampcat

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RE: Griffin Quotes from Shuttle Summit
« Reply #4 on: 11/22/2005 11:08 pm »

It sure is refreshing to see him addressing one of the major impediments to lowering the cost of spaceflight. That comment about the Trident is spot on. It might be a bit ambitious to think you could launch a crewed vehicle with such a small group of operators, but he's thinking in the right direction.

I only wonder how his efforts to reduce the size of the operations force will sit with the operators themselves and their political patrons.

Sent from my desktop using my fingers.

Offline realtime

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RE: Griffin Quotes from Shuttle Summit
« Reply #5 on: 11/23/2005 04:31 am »
Quote
Orbiter Obvious - 22/11/2005  3:47 PM

Is that Griffin being a little arrogant with a rewording of saying the STS was a mistake, again?
If the goal is exploration of the solar system, one can come to only one conclusion:  

Shuttle was a mistake.  A great big magnificent mistake.  

Sure, it was a marvelous feat of engineering and aesthetically it's just a beautiful bird.  But it sucked down so many resources that there was nothing left for new designs, new initiatives.  Like any massive project it had its own agenda, and that was to continue.  And continue it did, at the expense of everything else HSF-related.  If you want to know why it has taken us 30 years to even think about going back to the Moon, look no further than STS and the host of winged fantasy craft NASA sought to replace it with.  For the same mission of boosting heavy cargo to LEO that the Saturn V did better!

Those are hard words to hear for a lot of people, but think how the Apollo guys felt when Apollo was canned.  It's time to place Shuttle fondly on the shelf and move on.  

And as for Griffin -- that's the sound of an administrator who's inherited a dysfunctional organization choked with paper-pushers at the top, prima donnas in the middle, and scared Joe Blows at the bottom.  He's been handed a truly Herculean task and only a little time in which to do it.  Meanwhile, the media and Congress watch him like vultures, waiting to see him stumble.  I think he's handling it quite well.

He has sharp elbows for sure, and it's a good thing.  He's going to need them.


Offline CuddlyRocket

RE: Griffin Quotes from Shuttle Summit
« Reply #6 on: 11/23/2005 12:33 pm »
Yes, one of the big flaws with the STS is the standing army of people you have to have even if it doesn't launch at all. This means that when there's a problem you don't get savings from not launching that you can use to fix the problem, hence budgetary difficulties.

It's quite common for a lot of great engineering companies to come unstuck because the dominant designers disregard operational (and production) difficulties. Lots of 'great' designs are crowded out by apparently inferior products, because the latter are cheaper to build and/or easier to operate. Griffin has been in private industry, is an MBA, and will be well aware of the case studies.

This is also the basic reason for the return of the capsules.

Offline Dobbins

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RE: Griffin Quotes from Shuttle Summit
« Reply #7 on: 11/23/2005 01:05 pm »
Quote
CuddlyRocket - 23/11/2005  8:33 AM

Yes, one of the big flaws with the STS is the standing army of people you have to have even if it doesn't launch at all. This means that when there's a problem you don't get savings from not launching that you can use to fix the problem, hence budgetary difficulties.

But if you visit an Airlines service center you will find a standing army to service the Jets. The problem isn't just the size of the Shuttle work force. The Airlines have a high enough flight rate to justify that work force of that size. This is the basic economic flaw behind reusable spaceplanes, there simply isn't a market for the number of launches that is needed to make the investment in a spaceplane service center pay off. If a Spaceplane design were capable of a weekly launch rate and NASA had the justification to launch that many flights then that economic flaw would turn around in it's favor. Spaceplanes are not economically viable with any launch rate that is going to be achieved by NASA in the foreseeable future.

There is one other flaw in how we handle manned space flight. If a 737 crashes we don't ground all 737s for two or three years. We don't stop all Boeing Jets from flying. We simply accept the fact that accidents happen. For some strange reason we aren't willing to accept the same thing about space flight even though it's a far more dangerous venture than flying on an airliner. We have lost some crews, and at some point in the future we are going to lose some more regardless of how careful we are. That is the nature of something as bold and daring as reaching for the heavens. The Apollo 1 plaque at the remains of Launch Complex 34 reads Ad Astra Per Aspera (A Rough Road Leads To The Stars) That is something that we can't lose sight of.

John B. Dobbins

Offline MKremer

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RE: Griffin Quotes from Shuttle Summit
« Reply #8 on: 11/23/2005 04:19 pm »
Quote
Dobbins - 23/11/2005  8:05 AM

If a 737 crashes we don't ground all 737s for two or three years. We don't stop all Boeing Jets from flying.
If the the 737s and the airline flying many 1000's of civilian passengers every day were owned and run by the gov't and paid for by taxpayer money, they probably would all be grounded while investigations and studies tried to find the cause and how to fix it. The press would be all over it (like the shuttle tragedies), too, demanding explanations.

Offline rsp1202

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RE: Griffin Quotes from Shuttle Summit
« Reply #9 on: 11/23/2005 06:40 pm »
Thanks to realtime and dobbins for two of the best posts I've read yet on this forum.

Offline nethegauner

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RE: Griffin Quotes from Shuttle Summit
« Reply #10 on: 11/24/2005 10:21 am »
Quote
Dobbins - 23/11/2005  3:05 PM
If a 737 crashes we don't ground all 737s for two or three years. We don't stop all Boeing Jets from flying. We simply accept the fact that accidents happen. For some strange reason we aren't willing to accept the same thing about space flight even though it's a far more dangerous venture than flying on an airliner. We have lost some crews, and at some point in the future we are going to lose some more regardless of how careful we are. That is the nature of something as bold and daring as reaching for the heavens. The Apollo 1 plaque at the remains of Launch Complex 34 reads Ad Astra Per Aspera (A Rough Road Leads To The Stars) That is something that we can't lose sight of.
Tell that to the NASA decision makers! Boy, the astronauts themselves seem to accept the risk. Accidents do happen!

Of course, uhm... accidents enabled by management errors must not be regarded as unavoidable. As soon as a risk grows to immense to just  be lived with, something must be done. Nothing was done when NASA was warned about the SRB O-ring issue in the early 80s. Nothing was done when it became apparent STS-107 had a major problem.

What's happening now is something completely different. Now the safety issue seems to stand in the way of getting ready to fly again. I thought the added safety measures (extra on-orbit inspections, a rescue shuttle on stand-by etc.) were sufficient. I don't think the engineers will ever be able to completely stop small (or even larger) chunks of foam to break loose during ascent.

Offline Dogsbd

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RE: Griffin Quotes from Shuttle Summit
« Reply #11 on: 11/24/2005 12:13 pm »
Griffin is right again. The only mistake in those quotes was whomever inserted the "tactical missile" after "Trident D-5". The Trident is a strategic missile.

Offline lmike

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RE: Griffin Quotes from Shuttle Summit
« Reply #12 on: 11/26/2005 09:34 am »
This quote is pure gold: ""If we design another space launch system that requires $4.5B per year to do no launches at all ... just to own the system, then we will be put out of business ... we will be put out of business!"

I must admit I used to have doubts about Dr. Griffin, but he is a straight talking chap, it seems.  He is "the good people" now, in my book.  It's the ECONOMICS, not the technology!  If this has sunk in among the NASA people, we are in good shape.  But also, please, Mike, do those Prizes/Procurements for the start-ups, you'll be my hero if in a decade time they will grow into a full fledged SPACE INDUSTRY.


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