Author Topic: China's space program  (Read 654680 times)

Offline Rocket Science

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Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: China's space program
« Reply #181 on: 04/26/2011 04:06 pm »
From Xinhua, Countdown begins for China's space station program.

The mass of ~60 tonnes clearly excludes the piloted Shenzhou and the Tiangong-derived cargo freighter.  They could bring the total mass up to around 75-80 tonnes when both are docked.

I would have thought that between the Tiangong "mini laboratories" and this modular station, we will see a mission rather like Salyuts 6/7 using a single 22 tonnes core module and the Tiangong cargo freighter taking on the role of the Soviet Progress or even TKS spacecraft.

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Offline aquanaut99

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Re: China's space program
« Reply #182 on: 04/27/2011 11:27 am »
Interesting article in AW

Current Long March Rockets To Keep Flying
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=space&id=news/asd/2010/11/08/03.xml&headline=Current%20Long%20March%20Rockets%20To%20Keep%20Flying

This is somewhat confusing.

I was under the impression that all future Shenzhou missions would be launched using the new CZ-2F/H launcher. The CZ-2F/H is a major redesign of the CZ-2F, using a Kerolox first stage instead of hypergolics, with a 3.35m core mpowered by 2 YF-100s and four 2.25m strap-ons with 1 YF-100 each.

http://www.sinodefence.com/space/launcher/changzheng2.asp

Supposedly, the CZ-2F/H is required because the final production version of the Shenzhou spacecraft, which will first fly on SZ-8, is somewhat heavier than the prototypes launched until now. The CZ-2F/H is to have a payload capacity of 12.5 mT to LEO, compared to the 8mT of the hypergolic CZ-2F (which was just barely enough for the original Shenzhous).

The requirement to switch over to a new rocket is probably one of the main reason for the "gap" between Shenzhous 7 and 8.

How does this fit together?
« Last Edit: 04/27/2011 11:34 am by aquanaut99 »

Offline hektor

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Re: China's space program
« Reply #183 on: 04/27/2011 11:29 am »
What would be the orbital inclination ?

Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: China's space program
« Reply #184 on: 04/27/2011 06:31 pm »
What would be the orbital inclination ?

Why change from ~42 deg?
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Offline umandelbaum

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Re: China's space program
« Reply #185 on: 04/28/2011 05:21 pm »
Hello everyone. I am new to the forum and am researching the Chinese space program.

I am trying to find data for a report about the funding of the CNSA to compare to NASA funding.

NASA puts their budgets right on their website, making them really easy to find. The CNSA, on the other hand, doesn't have budget numbers on their English site, and I cannot find their budgets even using an online translator to read the Chinese site.

Does anyone know if the numbers are available anywhere? I don't know much about the Chinese government, but do they release a 'federal' level budget at all? If so, would that budget have the funding levels for the CNSA?

Thank you in advance for any help you can provide!

Offline nickyp

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Re: China's space program
« Reply #186 on: 04/29/2011 06:00 pm »
the Chinese Space Program is very secretive.  I'd be surprised if anyone here knew the budget! :)

Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: China's space program
« Reply #187 on: 04/29/2011 06:13 pm »
the Chinese Space Program is very secretive.  I'd be surprised if anyone here knew the budget! :)

I am not sure whether it is correct to say that the Chinese space programme is more secretive than - for example - the US programme is.   Both carefully guard details of their military missions, but both are open about their primarily civil programmes.

As for budgets, that is something which the Chinese rarely discuss.   You may get a few isolated quotes here and there about specific missions, but nothing for the overall programme.

Umandelbaum, are you doing a study for a specific client?   Or maybe you cannot say!
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Offline aquanaut99

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Re: China's space program
« Reply #188 on: 04/29/2011 08:12 pm »
the Chinese Space Program is very secretive.  I'd be surprised if anyone here knew the budget! :)

The Chinese Space Program is nowhere near as secretive as the Soviet one was.

In fact, I think that the Chinese are remarkably open about their manned spaceflight program.

Offline umandelbaum

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Re: China's space program
« Reply #189 on: 04/30/2011 01:31 am »

I am not sure whether it is correct to say that the Chinese space programme is more secretive than - for example - the US programme is.   Both carefully guard details of their military missions, but both are open about their primarily civil programmes.

As for budgets, that is something which the Chinese rarely discuss.   You may get a few isolated quotes here and there about specific missions, but nothing for the overall programme.

Umandelbaum, are you doing a study for a specific client?   Or maybe you cannot say!

I'm not doing any secretive research, I'm just a simple grad student studying Space Ops Management.

So far I would agree that China is very open about what its civil manned space program is doing, and like the US is very secretive about their military space program (with good reason). But its depressing that their budget numbers are secret for the civilian program. I guess that without elections to hold them accountable, the CNSA budget must be nearly unlimited as long as they produce results - similar to how much money NASA got back during the Apollo program.

Its really bad for me personally though that the Chinese budgets are so secret - I'm already behind on my report, and now its clear that half the data I need just doesn't exist!  :(
« Last Edit: 04/30/2011 01:31 am by umandelbaum »

Offline hop

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Re: China's space program
« Reply #190 on: 04/30/2011 02:15 am »
I guess that without elections to hold them accountable, the CNSA budget must be nearly unlimited as long as they produce results - similar to how much money NASA got back during the Apollo program.
I wouldn't assume that. My impression is that slow pace of the manned to date has been due to relatively low budgets. I certainly don't have any numbers to back this up, but it seems like the best explanation of the low flight rate so far.

Offline grdja

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Re: China's space program
« Reply #191 on: 04/30/2011 04:05 pm »
If those economic projections are true, after Chine outgrows USA economy it could afford quite a robust space program.

Offline Cog_in_the_machine

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Re: China's space program
« Reply #192 on: 04/30/2011 06:03 pm »
If those economic projections are true, after Chine outgrows USA economy it could afford quite a robust space program.

It can already afford a "robust space program", whatever that means. The US can also afford it. The question is, who's willing to pay for a "robust space program"? Money talks and it speaks volumes about which things are priorities for a given government.

For those wondering about the Chinese space budget, according to The Space Report, current estimates put it at 2.24 billion.

You might note that the US government spends 64.63 billion, which I assume is both DoD and civilian space program budgets combined.
^^ Warning! Contains opinions. ^^ 

Offline Satori

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Offline sdsds

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Re: China's space program
« Reply #194 on: 05/08/2011 06:19 pm »
I would agree that China is very open about what its civil manned space program is doing

Could you expand on that a bit?  Because as best I can determine there is no civil manned space program in China.  None.  Zero.

You may perhaps be thinking of the China Manned Space Engineering Office (CMSEO).  CMSEO is a special department within the General Armaments Department of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA).

The PLA is not a civilian organization.
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Offline hop

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Re: China's space program
« Reply #195 on: 05/08/2011 06:33 pm »
Could you expand on that a bit?  Because as best I can determine there is no civil manned space program in China.  None.  Zero.

You may perhaps be thinking of the China Manned Space Engineering Office (CMSEO).  CMSEO is a special department within the General Armaments Department of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA).

The PLA is not a civilian organization.
While this is *technically* true, there is no evidence their manned program serves any military purpose. Unlike western countries, the PLA runs a lot of stuff that is not directly related to defense. The distinction between "civil" and "military" is much less well defined... the PLA is an enormously powerful political and commercial organization.

You've made this mistake before: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=7058.msg656968#msg656968

Offline sdsds

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Re: China's space program
« Reply #196 on: 05/09/2011 12:37 am »
CMSEO is a special department within the General Armaments Department of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA).

The PLA is not a civilian organization.
While this is *technically* true

Thanks for that acknowledgement!

Quote
the PLA runs a lot of stuff that is not directly related to defense. The distinction between "civil" and "military" is much less well defined...

We are agreed on this too.  It is a blended civil/military program operated by the Army.

Quote
You've made this mistake before: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=7058.msg656968#msg656968

And continue to make it, because technically it is not a mistake.  In fact politically it is a crucially important fact.  We almost made the same mistake in the United States and I for one am quite pleased with the wisdom of those who established NASA as a purely civilian organization.

China would do well to use NASA model, as otherwise most of the world (except certain China apologists) will rightly condemn them for unneeded militarization of the human expansion into space.
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Offline Rocket Science

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Re: China's space program
« Reply #197 on: 05/09/2011 12:52 am »
The NASA model? Yes, a civilian agency that flew military pilots on military boosters until Apollo. You might mean the recent Shuttle era. Still... one who has to think hard how many missions did not have a military pilot as commander. We put a U.S. flag on the Moon, not a U.N. one. The lines blur sometimes...
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
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Offline hop

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Re: China's space program
« Reply #198 on: 05/09/2011 02:53 am »
And continue to make it, because technically it is not a mistake.  In fact politically it is a crucially important fact.
The mistake is the (or misdirection, since you claim to understand the difference) implication that "run by the PLA" means the same thing as "military program" does in the west; It doesn't. The plastic lawn chairs you bought at wal-mart might be made in a PLA owned factory, but that doesn't make your patio a Chinese military program (these days, it's more likely they are made in a former PLA factor that now just happens to be owned by a retired general...)
Quote
We almost made the same mistake in the United States and I for one am quite pleased with the wisdom of those who established NASA as a purely civilian organization.
I'm not saying anything about desirability of the Chinese system. I'm just saying that if you are going to call it a military program, you should acknowledge that it doesn't mean the same thing it would in the west.

Offline Rocket Science

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« Last Edit: 05/09/2011 01:53 pm by Rocket Science »
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
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