Author Topic: Atlas, Saturn Launch Vehicles  (Read 22842 times)

Offline GRSG

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Offline Dexter

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Re: Atlas, Saturn Launch Vehicles
« Reply #1 on: 11/06/2006 11:15 pm »
I like this quote from the Atlas book web site:

"The original version of Atlas will be retired by the time this book is released, but parts of the Atlas legacy lives on in the form of the Centaur upper stage (and even its famous name) in the Atlas V replacement vehicle built by the Lockheed Martin Corporation."

Implies that the Atlas V vehicle really isn't an Atlas anymore except in name only.  


Offline Jim

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Re: Atlas, Saturn Launch Vehicles
« Reply #2 on: 11/06/2006 11:46 pm »
Quote
Dexter - 6/11/2006  6:58 PM

I like this quote from the Atlas book web site:

"The original version of Atlas will be retired by the time this book is released, but parts of the Atlas legacy lives on in the form of the Centaur upper stage (and even its famous name) in the Atlas V replacement vehicle built by the Lockheed Martin Corporation."

Implies that the Atlas V vehicle really isn't an Atlas anymore except in name only.  


Author's opinion and the book has many errors.  The book is mostly about the weapon system and briefly touches on the space launch versions.  The author was associated with the weapon system and not the space launch group

Offline Dexter

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Re: Atlas, Saturn Launch Vehicles
« Reply #3 on: 11/07/2006 12:04 am »
Still makes a good point.

Good attempt at character assasination.

Offline Jim

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Re: Atlas, Saturn Launch Vehicles
« Reply #4 on: 11/07/2006 12:40 am »
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Dexter - 6/11/2006  7:47 PM

Still makes a good point.

Good attempt at character assasination.

He's not qualified

Offline bombay

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Re: Atlas, Saturn Launch Vehicles
« Reply #5 on: 11/07/2006 12:50 am »
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Jim - 6/11/2006  7:23 PM

Quote
Dexter - 6/11/2006  7:47 PM

Still makes a good point.

Good attempt at character assasination.

He's not qualified
So you're saying the pressure stabalized structure, which still includes the Centaur upperstage and was part of all boosters leading up to Atlas V was NOT part of the legacy of the Atlas.  You're joking, right?

Offline Jim

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Re: Atlas, Saturn Launch Vehicles
« Reply #6 on: 11/07/2006 12:58 am »
No, I was countering his implication that Atlas V core isn't part of the Atlas legacy.

Offline edkyle99

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Re: Atlas, Saturn Launch Vehicles
« Reply #7 on: 11/07/2006 02:05 am »
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Jim - 6/11/2006  7:41 PM

No, I was countering his implication that Atlas V core isn't part of the Atlas legacy.

Atlas V still has the "Centaur" part of "Atlas Centaur", and perhaps retains the "spirit" of the original Atlas, but Atlas V CCB stage it is not anything like the original Convair Astronautics (later General Dynamics) Atlas.  I think Chuck Walker is more than adequately "qualified" to make that judgement.  He worked at Convair (GD) on the Atlas program from 1953 until 1963 (and in Convair aircraft testing beginning in 1945).  

 - Ed Kyle

Offline Jim

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Re: Atlas, Saturn Launch Vehicles
« Reply #8 on: 11/07/2006 02:24 am »
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edkyle99 - 6/11/2006  9:48 PM

Quote
Jim - 6/11/2006  7:41 PM

No, I was countering his implication that Atlas V core isn't part of the Atlas legacy.

Atlas V still has the "Centaur" part of "Atlas Centaur", and perhaps retains the "spirit" of the original Atlas, but Atlas V CCB stage it is not anything like the original Convair Astronautics (later General Dynamics) Atlas.  I think Chuck Walker is more than adequately "qualified" to make that judgement.  He worked at Convair (GD) on the Atlas program from 1953 until 1963 (and in Convair aircraft testing beginning in 1945).  

 - Ed Kyle

He wasn't in engineering.  His focus was on base activation and not space launch.  Outsider WRT space launch and the book reflects that.

Other than structure, Atlas V CCB stage has many of the same systems as the Atlas II and III.   The ballon tank is not the only thing that defined Atlas.

Offline Rocket Guy

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Re: Atlas, Saturn Launch Vehicles
« Reply #9 on: 11/07/2006 02:51 am »
Most of the LM guys sent the last Atlas 2 and 3 off as if that was the end of 'heritage Atlas' as they called it. The engine package and the balloon tanks were what made Atlas, Atlas in their minds, as well as the traditional pad infrastructure which ended when they closed 36.

Offline GRSG

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Re: Atlas, Saturn Launch Vehicles
« Reply #10 on: 11/07/2006 03:09 am »
Who? The author is not qualified, I beg to differ.

Offline Dexter

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Re: Atlas, Saturn Launch Vehicles
« Reply #11 on: 11/07/2006 04:31 am »
Quote
Jim - 6/11/2006  7:41 PM

No, I was countering his implication that Atlas V core isn't part of the Atlas legacy.

Atlas 3 + Titan 4 = Atlas V

What part of Atlas V is from Titan 4

Offline Dexter

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Re: Atlas, Saturn Launch Vehicles
« Reply #12 on: 11/07/2006 04:36 am »
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Jim - 6/11/2006  9:07 PM

Quote
edkyle99 - 6/11/2006  9:48 PM

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Jim - 6/11/2006  7:41 PM

No, I was countering his implication that Atlas V core isn't part of the Atlas legacy.

Atlas V still has the "Centaur" part of "Atlas Centaur", and perhaps retains the "spirit" of the original Atlas, but Atlas V CCB stage it is not anything like the original Convair Astronautics (later General Dynamics) Atlas.  I think Chuck Walker is more than adequately "qualified" to make that judgement.  He worked at Convair (GD) on the Atlas program from 1953 until 1963 (and in Convair aircraft testing beginning in 1945).  

 - Ed Kyle

He wasn't in engineering.  His focus was on base activation and not space launch.  Outsider WRT space launch and the book reflects that.

Other than structure, Atlas V CCB stage has many of the same systems as the Atlas II and III.   The ballon tank is not the only thing that defined Atlas.

Seeing that the title of the book is "Atlas - The Ultimate Weapon", I would guess, without having read the book that the emphasis would be on the ICBM program.  

Just a hunch using some deductive reasoning.

Offline bombay

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Re: Atlas, Saturn Launch Vehicles
« Reply #13 on: 11/07/2006 05:30 am »
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Jim - 6/11/2006  7:41 PM

No, I was countering his implication that Atlas V core isn't part of the Atlas legacy.
His implication is 100% correct.  The genesis of the Atlas launcher goes back to the old weapons system.  The ICBM's up through the Atlas III and the current Centaur are forever linked by the unique basic tank structure that the Atlas V does not share.  The stainless balloon concept is the most profound aspect of the "true" Atlas.  As the story states, the Atlas legacy exists in name only when talking about the Atlas V.

In addition, Walker told the story of Atlas through the words of numerous people that worked and ran the program over the course of time.  It wasn't just one man's opinion.

Offline meiza

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Re: Atlas, Saturn Launch Vehicles
« Reply #14 on: 11/07/2006 09:52 am »
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Jim - 7/11/2006  3:07 AM
Other than structure, Atlas V CCB stage has many of the same systems as the Atlas II and III.   The ballon tank is not the only thing that defined Atlas.

Interesting. What major systems and approaches for Atlas V came from old Atlas? And what came from Titan? And what were built from scratch?

Edit: I realize maybe this is more of a subject for a book rather than a newspost... :)

Offline Jim

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Re: Atlas, Saturn Launch Vehicles
« Reply #15 on: 11/07/2006 11:58 am »
As far as sytems, they all came from Atlas.  The avionics came from Atlas.

Offline Gus

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Re: Atlas, Saturn Launch Vehicles
« Reply #16 on: 11/08/2006 05:14 am »
Here are a few talking points.

Station planes-
  Atlas legacy was similar to aircraft design.  Station lines start at 0 the front of the plane and increase moving aft.  This practice was used by the Atlas legacy programs.  On Atlas V CCB, the station plane value is zero at the bottom of the rocket and increase as you move up the vehicle or forward.  

Drawing Numbers
 Atlas legacy numbers followed the xx-xxxxx-x format where the first two numbers are a program prefix, the middle set is a basic number and the final set is a dash number on the drawing.  The common core used the xxxxxxxxxxx-xxx format similar to Titan for Structures and fluids.   Avionics on the core as Jim states follows the Atlas legacy xx-xxxxx-x format.

Some one looking at this for the first time might think the vehicle was designed by two separate companies.

Offline Dexter

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Re: Atlas, Saturn Launch Vehicles
« Reply #17 on: 11/09/2006 05:30 am »
Station planes increase and then decrease???

That sounds a little bit retarded. ;)

Wonder what Boeing does.

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Atlas, Saturn Launch Vehicles
« Reply #18 on: 11/10/2006 12:20 am »
Gus, and which direction did the Titan Station planes go in? On a vehice that could have different upper stages over it's life I guess it make sense to start at the base of the vehicle which should change the least over the design life of the vehicle (The move to the RD-180 being an oddity).

We know the Atlas V tanks came from the titan group, and the avioncs where existing systems from the Atlas group. Since there is major reuse here, it makes no sense to drive the drafters crazy making them renumber every preexisting drawing. Really opens you up for a missing something in the drawings as you convert them and end up costing you a vehicle. Though they should have a consistant numbering system for new work... I wonder if the QC (ISO?) procedures in place make it almost impossible to change the numbering scheme. When we moved to ISO we have to change our drawing numbers to a scheme that was more version control compliant. We have pre-ISO drawings dating back 46 years and all new (updated) drawings use the ISO approved system. I am sure both groups had version control compliant systems in place long before they merged the schemes and it may be next to impossible to change either.
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Offline Gus

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Re: Atlas, Saturn Launch Vehicles
« Reply #19 on: 11/10/2006 04:45 am »
The common core booster (CCB) was essentially a clean sheet design.  The decision on what drawing format and config management system was left to the IPTs and reflected the heritage of the management in charge of each system.  Anyone suggesting that CCB is legacy Atlas would be incorrect.  

ISO and version control was never an issue with either system.

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