Author Topic: 2-Launch Orion Lunar Flyby  (Read 8734 times)

Offline strangequark

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1072
  • Co-Founder, Tesseract Space
  • San Francisco, CA
  • Liked: 226
  • Likes Given: 12
2-Launch Orion Lunar Flyby
« on: 08/21/2011 09:01 pm »
As has been stated many times before, programs with no highly visible signs of progress are much easier to cancel.

I have been wondering recently about a quick Orion Lunar flyby using existing hardware, and what the obstacles would be to achieving it.

So, the mission I had in mind is:

Launch 1: Orion on Delta IV-H to LEO
Launch 2: Delta IV-H, only payload is upper stage to LEO
Rendezvous Orion and US and perform TLI

Using Astronautix numbers (if anyone has better, let me know), the Delta IV US can provide about 2900 m/s of deltaV for this stack, which is just short of TLI. However, the Orion SM has plenty of additional capability to make up the difference.

Questions:
What would need to be done, above the work for OFT-1 to integrate everything?

What would be a feasible timeframe for this to happen?

Are there any showstoppers I haven't considered?


Mods: Feel free to move. I know this topic is mostly speculation, so I wasn't sure if the Orion section would be appropriate or not.

Offline apace

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 812
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: 2-Launch Orion Lunar Flyby
« Reply #1 on: 08/21/2011 09:09 pm »
Don't forget the people, the Delta IV Heavy is not manrated!

Offline Nathan

  • Member
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 710
  • Sydney
  • Liked: 16
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: 2-Launch Orion Lunar Flyby
« Reply #2 on: 08/21/2011 09:26 pm »
Orion isnt existing hardware. It will be ready for flight testing around same time as falcon heavy which will be crew rated. May as well use the cheaper rocket.
Given finite cash, if we want to go to Mars then we should go to Mars.

Offline Downix

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7082
  • Liked: 22
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: 2-Launch Orion Lunar Flyby
« Reply #3 on: 08/21/2011 09:39 pm »
Orion isnt existing hardware. It will be ready for flight testing around same time as falcon heavy which will be crew rated. May as well use the cheaper rocket.
And loose performance, as the Falcon Heavy's upper stage cannot give the same delta-v as the DCSS.  You'd need three launches now to match two.
chuck - Toilet paper has no real value? Try living with 5 other adults for 6 months in a can with no toilet paper. Man oh man. Toilet paper would be worth it's weight in gold!

Offline Downix

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7082
  • Liked: 22
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: 2-Launch Orion Lunar Flyby
« Reply #4 on: 08/21/2011 09:53 pm »
Put a Centaur on top there Strangequark, with the Delta IV putting a full Centaur into orbit and using the leftover fuel in the DCSS.  based on my math, you'd still have about 4,000 kg of fuel left in the DCSS, just enough to add another 250 m/s of delta-v, enough for full TLI.
chuck - Toilet paper has no real value? Try living with 5 other adults for 6 months in a can with no toilet paper. Man oh man. Toilet paper would be worth it's weight in gold!

Offline apace

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 812
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: 2-Launch Orion Lunar Flyby
« Reply #5 on: 08/21/2011 10:00 pm »
Orion isnt existing hardware. It will be ready for flight testing around same time as falcon heavy which will be crew rated. May as well use the cheaper rocket.
And loose performance, as the Falcon Heavy's upper stage cannot give the same delta-v as the DCSS.  You'd need three launches now to match two.

SpaceX already announced a new engine, in your timeframe you can be sure this new engine will be ready.

Offline Downix

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7082
  • Liked: 22
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: 2-Launch Orion Lunar Flyby
« Reply #6 on: 08/21/2011 10:09 pm »
Orion isnt existing hardware. It will be ready for flight testing around same time as falcon heavy which will be crew rated. May as well use the cheaper rocket.
And loose performance, as the Falcon Heavy's upper stage cannot give the same delta-v as the DCSS.  You'd need three launches now to match two.

SpaceX already announced a new engine, in your timeframe you can be sure this new engine will be ready.
I thought we were discussing before the 2018 point for that engine to be introduced.  My appologies if that is not the case.
chuck - Toilet paper has no real value? Try living with 5 other adults for 6 months in a can with no toilet paper. Man oh man. Toilet paper would be worth it's weight in gold!

Offline apace

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 812
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: 2-Launch Orion Lunar Flyby
« Reply #7 on: 08/21/2011 10:19 pm »
Orion isnt existing hardware. It will be ready for flight testing around same time as falcon heavy which will be crew rated. May as well use the cheaper rocket.
And loose performance, as the Falcon Heavy's upper stage cannot give the same delta-v as the DCSS.  You'd need three launches now to match two.

SpaceX already announced a new engine, in your timeframe you can be sure this new engine will be ready.
I thought we were discussing before the 2018 point for that engine to be introduced.  My appologies if that is not the case.

I bet the new engine is ready 2015.

Offline Downix

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7082
  • Liked: 22
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: 2-Launch Orion Lunar Flyby
« Reply #8 on: 08/21/2011 10:24 pm »
Orion isnt existing hardware. It will be ready for flight testing around same time as falcon heavy which will be crew rated. May as well use the cheaper rocket.
And loose performance, as the Falcon Heavy's upper stage cannot give the same delta-v as the DCSS.  You'd need three launches now to match two.

SpaceX already announced a new engine, in your timeframe you can be sure this new engine will be ready.
I thought we were discussing before the 2018 point for that engine to be introduced.  My appologies if that is not the case.

I bet the new engine is ready 2015.
Which is still two years later than this mission being discussed can be flown.
chuck - Toilet paper has no real value? Try living with 5 other adults for 6 months in a can with no toilet paper. Man oh man. Toilet paper would be worth it's weight in gold!

Offline apace

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 812
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: 2-Launch Orion Lunar Flyby
« Reply #9 on: 08/21/2011 11:09 pm »
Which is still two years later than this mission being discussed can be flown.

Why? There's no manned Orion available 2013.

Offline Lars_J

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6160
  • California
  • Liked: 677
  • Likes Given: 195
Re: 2-Launch Orion Lunar Flyby
« Reply #10 on: 08/21/2011 11:26 pm »
I bet the new engine is ready 2015.
Which is still two years later than this mission being discussed can be flown.

Downix, they are not discussing the Orion 2013 test flight. This is a future hypothetical mission.

Offline Downix

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7082
  • Liked: 22
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: 2-Launch Orion Lunar Flyby
« Reply #11 on: 08/21/2011 11:38 pm »
I bet the new engine is ready 2015.
Which is still two years later than this mission being discussed can be flown.

Downix, they are not discussing the Orion 2013 test flight. This is a future hypothetical mission.
Precisely, hence why I said "can be flown". 

By 2015, the entire market will be different, having changed with the retirement of the Shuttle.  By then the Delta IV which is flying right now will no longer exist, replaced with an upgraded form that is already in late development utilizing the new RS-68A engine and a new common core, simplifying construction, reducing cost, and improving system performance.  To weigh in a scenario utilizing a new engine which may be available at some point between 2015 and 2020 against a real lifter that will be available by this point, you can do it.  I personally prefer using the equipment I know will be there, rather than the vague 5-year window.
chuck - Toilet paper has no real value? Try living with 5 other adults for 6 months in a can with no toilet paper. Man oh man. Toilet paper would be worth it's weight in gold!

Offline sdsds

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7202
  • “With peace and hope for all mankind.”
  • Seattle
  • Liked: 2050
  • Likes Given: 1962
Re: 2-Launch Orion Lunar Flyby
« Reply #12 on: 08/22/2011 05:03 am »
Launch 1: Orion on Delta IV-H to LEO
Launch 2: Delta IV-H, only payload is upper stage to LEO
Rendezvous Orion and US and perform TLI

Caveat: I'm a big fan of having trained test pilots fly aboard an Orion launched by DIVH.  They're test pilots.  They eat that kind of stuff for breakfast.  And because of that, the launch system modifications for it needn't be expensive.  But NASA does not want to restrict its astronauts to all be test pilots.  And rating DIVH for regular crew launches wouldn't be cheap.  So why start down that path?
— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 —

Offline sdsds

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7202
  • “With peace and hope for all mankind.”
  • Seattle
  • Liked: 2050
  • Likes Given: 1962
Re: 2-Launch Orion Lunar Flyby
« Reply #13 on: 08/22/2011 05:09 am »
Launch 1: Orion on Delta IV-H to LEO
Launch 2: Delta IV-H, only payload is upper stage to LEO
Rendezvous Orion and US and perform TLI

Addressing the technical side rather than the motivation side:

a) How quickly do you suppose two sequential DIVH launches could be performed to the same rendezvous orbit?  (Do CCAFS and VAFB inclination capabilities overlap?)

b) Are you assuming some extended duration mission kit for the LEO departure stage, or are you assuming (very) prompt rendezvous?

(EDIT to add: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=21467)
« Last Edit: 08/22/2011 05:14 am by sdsds »
— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 —

Offline Danderman

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10288
  • Liked: 699
  • Likes Given: 723
Re: 2-Launch Orion Lunar Flyby
« Reply #14 on: 08/22/2011 06:31 am »
Use warp drive, as long as people here are going full tilt ponies on this one.

Otherwise, why not use an Orion that is already scheduled to fly to ISS, and instead of returning it directly to Earth, it could then rendezvous/dock with the Centaur and fly by the Moon. That would save a lot of cash.


Offline strangequark

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1072
  • Co-Founder, Tesseract Space
  • San Francisco, CA
  • Liked: 226
  • Likes Given: 12
Re: 2-Launch Orion Lunar Flyby
« Reply #15 on: 08/22/2011 11:56 am »
Launch 1: Orion on Delta IV-H to LEO
Launch 2: Delta IV-H, only payload is upper stage to LEO
Rendezvous Orion and US and perform TLI

Addressing the technical side rather than the motivation side:

a) How quickly do you suppose two sequential DIVH launches could be performed to the same rendezvous orbit?  (Do CCAFS and VAFB inclination capabilities overlap?)

b) Are you assuming some extended duration mission kit for the LEO departure stage, or are you assuming (very) prompt rendezvous?

(EDIT to add: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=21467)

a) You would have to launch from CCAFS, practically speaking. There's a small overlap, for 51-57 degrees, but the plane change to get to an appropriate inclination for Lunar flyby would require almost 3000 m/s.

b) Not assuming anything, just wondering what is practical. If the dev time on an extended duration kit isn't the long pole, then sure.

Offline PeterAlt

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 720
  • West Palm Beach, FL
  • Liked: 8
  • Likes Given: 40
Re: 2-Launch Orion Lunar Flyby
« Reply #16 on: 08/22/2011 03:40 pm »
Orion isnt existing hardware. It will be ready for flight testing around same time as falcon heavy which will be crew rated. May as well use the cheaper rocket.

Hey, now! You better watch it! You're making sense... And that's strictly forbidden! We won't have any more of that now. Lol

Offline Downix

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7082
  • Liked: 22
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: 2-Launch Orion Lunar Flyby
« Reply #17 on: 08/22/2011 05:43 pm »
Launch 1: Orion on Delta IV-H to LEO
Launch 2: Delta IV-H, only payload is upper stage to LEO
Rendezvous Orion and US and perform TLI

Addressing the technical side rather than the motivation side:

a) How quickly do you suppose two sequential DIVH launches could be performed to the same rendezvous orbit?  (Do CCAFS and VAFB inclination capabilities overlap?)

b) Are you assuming some extended duration mission kit for the LEO departure stage, or are you assuming (very) prompt rendezvous?

(EDIT to add: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=21467)

a) You would have to launch from CCAFS, practically speaking. There's a small overlap, for 51-57 degrees, but the plane change to get to an appropriate inclination for Lunar flyby would require almost 3000 m/s.

b) Not assuming anything, just wondering what is practical. If the dev time on an extended duration kit isn't the long pole, then sure.
look up CRYOTE (and this is part of the reason why I suggested Centaur as the main unit, rather than DCSS).
chuck - Toilet paper has no real value? Try living with 5 other adults for 6 months in a can with no toilet paper. Man oh man. Toilet paper would be worth it's weight in gold!

Offline baddux

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 141
  • Liked: 8
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: 2-Launch Orion Lunar Flyby
« Reply #18 on: 08/22/2011 06:27 pm »
Perhaps you could send the crew to the ISS with Soyuz or a commercial US spacecraft if it's available. Then use Delta IV-H's to send first Orion to the ISS and then Centaur close to it. The crew would move to Orion and rendezvouz with Centaur and then on to the Moon? Cheaper than man-rating Delta IV-H or any other 25+ mT rocket.

Offline apace

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 812
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: 2-Launch Orion Lunar Flyby
« Reply #19 on: 08/22/2011 06:35 pm »
Perhaps you could send the crew to the ISS with Soyuz or a commercial US spacecraft if it's available. Then use Delta IV-H's to send first Orion to the ISS and then Centaur close to it. The crew would move to Orion and rendezvouz with Centaur and then on to the Moon? Cheaper than man-rating Delta IV-H or any other 25+ mT rocket.

Welcome to our idea from the other thread about this ;-)

Offline simonbp

  • Science Guy
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7138
  • Liked: 314
  • Likes Given: 183
Re: 2-Launch Orion Lunar Flyby
« Reply #20 on: 08/22/2011 07:54 pm »
Somewhere on this site there is (ULA, I think) presentation about launch an Orion on a Delta IV and using an ACES-type depot/tanker to refuel the Delta's upper stage for TLI. The depot was reusable and launched on a single-core Atlas, as was the tanker.

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
0