NASASpaceFlight.com Forum

International Space Flight (ESA, Russia, China and others) => Chinese Launchers => Topic started by: Satori on 03/12/2007 11:29 AM

Title: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 03/12/2007 11:29 AM
China has unveiled an ambitious blueprint for developing space science that includes the launch of the country's first astronomy satellite and more extensive international cooperation. From Xinha: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-03/12/content_5832530.htm
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: MartianBase on 03/13/2007 06:12 AM
Did the Chinese say anything about Mars recently ?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 03/19/2007 11:15 PM
The plans of China in space till 2010, from Xinhua http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-03/19/content_5868741.htm
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 03/19/2007 11:35 PM
Nothing until 2010! :)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 03/28/2007 09:28 PM
Quote
MartianBase - 13/3/2007  2:12 AM

Did the Chinese say anything about Mars recently ?

According to People's Daily, China will orbit Mars in 2009 toghether with a russian mission. See: http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200703/28/eng20070328_361690.html and here http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200703/28/eng20070328_361785.html .
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: mr.columbus on 03/29/2007 08:18 AM
Quote
Satori - 28/3/2007  5:28 PM

According to People's Daily, China will orbit Mars in 2009 toghether with a russian mission.

To be a bit more precise, a Chinese micro-sat will piggyback a ride on Phobos-Grunt...
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: wannamoonbase on 03/30/2007 08:39 PM
I will wait till I see the Russian spacecraft in orbit around Mars.  They don't exactly have a smooth record on success in deep space, or that big of a record for that matter.

Good luck and best wishes however, the more the 'Gooder' for all of us.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 10/13/2007 01:54 PM
Getting an old thread for this...

From People's Daily: Space program eyes farther frontiers (http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90776/6281338.html).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: khallow on 10/14/2007 07:37 PM
Out of curiousity, how extensively do they justify space projects to the media? These two announcements (for example) say remarkably little about the intent or importance of these projects, but that might be the reporters' fault.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 10/14/2007 11:45 PM
Quote
khallow - 14/10/2007  2:37 PM

Out of curiousity, how extensively do they justify space projects to the media? These two announcements (for example) say remarkably little about the intent or importance of these projects, but that might be the reporters' fault.

Hummm, I don't believe they say much more than this to the media...
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: tnphysics on 10/15/2007 12:42 AM
What will be the launcher for the lunar orbital missions this year?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 10/15/2007 09:29 AM
Quote
tnphysics - 14/10/2007  7:42 PM

What will be the launcher for the lunar orbital missions this year?

It will be a CZ-3A Chang Zheng-3A.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 10/24/2007 01:58 PM
According to mion70 there is a new launch pad being built at the Taiyuan Satellite Launch Center, certainly preparing for a increasing rate on the Chinsese launches.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 11/07/2007 09:54 AM
From Xinhua China denies timetable for space station (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-11/07/content_7027496.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 03/11/2008 07:26 PM
From Xinhua, China's recoverable moon rover expected in 2017 (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-03/11/content_7767730.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 03/20/2008 11:31 AM
From China Daily via china.org.cn China will not rush to get to moon (http://www.china.org.cn/china/sci_tech/2008-03/19/content_13019611.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Jirka Dlouhy on 03/21/2008 01:42 PM
From Xinhua about space obsevatory on South Pole´s Dome Argus (Anctartica)

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-03/20/content_7826744.htm
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: hesidu on 03/21/2008 02:59 PM
China will launch a space telescope to study the black holes and neutron stars. It's based on the ZiYuan-2 satellite platform and will be launched near 2010.
http://www.hxmt.cn/english/engineering/intro.php
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 03/26/2008 09:07 AM
From Xinhua, China approves second-phase lunar probe program (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-03/26/content_7861799.htm) and Brazil to deepen space cooperation with China (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-03/26/content_7861686.htm).

From Shangai Daily, 'Soft landing' mission for second lunar probe (http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/?id=353554&type=National).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Jirka Dlouhy on 04/09/2008 08:16 PM
From Xinhua: Second China civil aerospace industrial base breaks ground


http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-04/08/content_7942384.htm
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 04/24/2008 12:59 PM
From Xinhua,

China says significant progress in lunar rover research (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-04/24/content_8037966.htm).

Shanghai's own moon vehicle passes test (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-04/24/content_8041582.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Jirka Dlouhy on 05/05/2008 08:14 PM
China Satellite Navigation System Planned for 2010

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/080505-busmon-china-beidou.html
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Jirka Dlouhy on 05/05/2008 08:20 PM
Transparency Crucial to Chinese International Space Role

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=awst&id=news/aw050508p2.xml&headline=Transparency%20Crucial%20to%20Chinese%20International%20Space%20Role
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: summit on 05/06/2008 02:59 PM
Considering the thema of this part, I think that the most critical part od the chinese space program before 2010 is the building of the new space center in Hainan.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: summit on 05/07/2008 08:34 AM
China Satellite Navigation System Planned for 2010
By Peter B. de Selding, Toulouse, France
Space News Staff Writer
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/080505-busmon-china-beidou.html


Chinese satellite navigation officials say they intend to field an operational system covering all of Asia by 2010, but they are giving few details on the deployment plans for their global system. In addition China has yet to complete frequency coordination with the United States, Europe, Russia and others.

In presentations April 23 here at the Toulouse Space Show, these Chinese officials nonetheless said their global Compass/Beidou system would be fully compatible with the U.S. GPS, European Galileo and Russian Glonass global navigation constellations.

Like GPS, Galileo and Glonass, Beidou/Compass would be free of direct user charges but also feature an encrypted signal for authorized users only, presumably including the Chinese military.

Chengqi Ran, vice director of the China Satellite Navigation Project Center, said the secure Beidou/Compass signal would be "a highly reliable signal dedicated to complex situations."

Beidou/Compass is designed to feature five satellites in geostationary orbit and 30 satellites in medium Earth orbit. Ran and Xiaohan Liao, a deputy director at China's Ministry of Science and Technology, said the first of the medium Earth orbit satellites, launched in April 2007, is functioning well but is still the subject of in-orbit validation.

Liao said China intends to operate a Wide Area Precise Pointing system using geostationary satellites. China operates three Beidou/Compass satellites in geostationary orbit. Liao said the wide-area coverage, to include all of Asia, should be in operation by 2010.

Liao said China wants to ensure that the growing population of GPS users in China will have a smooth transition from GPS-only devices to devices that receive both GPS and Beidou/Compass signals. He said the market for GPS gear in China is expected to reach around $5 billion in 2010.

China's intentions for Beidou/Compass remain a subject of concern in the United States, Europe, Russia and Japan, according to government officials representing those countries at the Toulouse Space Show.

China's plans for an Asian regional system are the most immediate concern to Japanese authorities, who are developing their own regional system, called the Quazi Zenith Satellite System, because its three satellites will be in a highly elliptical orbit whose apogee will be over Japan and Asia.

Satoshi Kogure, associate senior engineer at the Japan Aerospace Exploration Japanese Agency, said some in Japan fear the Chinese system and think "this is an important issue for Japanese national security."

Kogure said China and Japan have had few, if any, talks about their respective systems, although both nations are members of the International Committee on Global Navigation Satellite Systems. This committee is next scheduled to meet in December in Pasadena, Calif.

"All the [satellite system] provider nations have agreed in principle" to seek maximum compatibility and interoperability among the different systems to permit users to take maximum benefit from the proliferation of satellites now planned, said Anthony Russo, deputy director of the U.S. National Coordination Office for Space-based Positioning, Navigation and Timing. "But a lot of details still need to be worked."

Europe's Galileo managers are actively seeking Chinese clarification on plans for Beidou/Compass so European engineers can freeze their plans for the signal structure of Galileo this year, when contracts for the satellites are scheduled to be signed.

"Our position with the Chinese is that we need to make sure we all have the same understanding of the problem," said Paul Verhoef, head of the Galileo unit at the European Commission, which is financing Galileo's development. "It has taken the Chinese awhile for them to realize that it is in their interest to [coordinate signals and other compatibility issues] if they want to be in this community of providers."

Verhoef noted that when the U.S., Russian, Chinese and European medium Earth navigations are added together, there could be 120 operational navigation satellites in medium Earth orbit by the middle of the next decade — plus the three Japanese elliptical satellites.


Related link: http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/080505-busmon-china-beidou.html
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: summit on 05/07/2008 08:40 AM
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 05/22/2008 05:12 PM
In a article published in July 2005 on The Star Online with the title "China counts down for own Kamikaze mission", journalist Paul Radford spoke about China plans to launch a unmanned space mission like the Deep Impact US probe.

There was no schedule mentioned on the article but I wonder if anyone else has any other information about this plans? (I have no old like for the article but I can send a copy if anyone is interested).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 08/16/2008 11:19 AM
From Shangai Daily, China all primed for first manned space station (http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/?id=370457&type=National).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Rusty_Barton on 09/08/2008 05:46 PM
Here is a webpage full of pictures related to Shenzhou 6
http://pic.people.com.cn/GB/42592/3761664.html

Another webpage related to the Shenzhou 6 flight
http://scitech.people.com.cn/GB/25509/53955/index.html
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 09/14/2008 03:37 PM
From Xinhua, Aerospace exhibition held in Guilin (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-09/14/content_9983177.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 09/14/2008 04:00 PM
It's the first time I see this video...

Long March explodes over Xichang China

"http://www.youtube.com/v/72a2NIGZ8h8&hl=en&fs=1"
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: hesidu on 09/14/2008 04:28 PM
I guess it was the LM-2E launched in Jan, 26th 1995.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Rusty_Barton on 09/14/2008 11:14 PM
Long March-III rocket accident Feb.15.1996
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26O3CMGNdWY

Video shows night time rocket launch, going off course, exploding
and damage in nearby town the next day.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: osiossim on 09/15/2008 08:40 AM
Long March-III rocket accident Feb.15.1996
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26O3CMGNdWY

Video shows night time rocket launch, going off course, exploding
and damage in nearby town the next day.

Where are the videos?


Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Rusty_Barton on 09/16/2008 11:51 AM


Where are the videos?


The link is embedded in my original message. Your browser must be having trouble viewing it. When I try to just list the URL alone, the page embeds the video instead.


The video is on YouTube under the title, "Long March 3B Accident".
Do a search for that title at www.youtube.com
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 09/30/2008 02:06 PM
Does anyone has any information regarding the fate of the KT-1 and KT-2 launch vehicle program?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 10/16/2008 06:19 PM
China will launch a communications satellite for Pakistan in 2011. See (from Xinhua) China to deliver telecom satellite to Pakistan (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-10/16/content_10206116.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 10/31/2008 10:03 AM
Can someone please help me in translating this http://www.spacechina.com/xwzx_zyxw_Details.shtml?recno=57599 (I have used the Babel Fish but I'm still confused)?

Is this just the story of the team that prepares the rockets for launch or are they preparing another launch from Taiyuan?

Thanks!
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: wbhh on 11/01/2008 12:47 PM
Can someone please help me in translating this http://www.spacechina.com/xwzx_zyxw_Details.shtml?recno=57599 (I have used the Babel Fish but I'm still confused)?

Is this just the story of the team that prepares the rockets for launch or are they preparing another launch from Taiyuan?

Thanks!
It's a humdrum story about SJ6E and SJ6F launch preparation.

The first part is about new launch station in Taiyuan, the second part is about challenge from temperature changing.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: wbhh on 11/01/2008 12:54 PM
maybe this is an early research about space plane
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: wbhh on 11/01/2008 01:33 PM
plasma engine in developing

I bet $10 every space countries is researching it or already researched.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: wbhh on 11/01/2008 01:57 PM
laser thruster
it only can fly 100m by last year
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: wbhh on 11/01/2008 02:37 PM
kkv warhead

The ignominious anti-sate test in last year, maybe done by this guy.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: wbhh on 11/01/2008 02:46 PM
mini-sate on Shenzhou7 (translated by eyesineyes)
(http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/8641/89257912qe3.png)

other mini-sate
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: wbhh on 11/01/2008 02:48 PM
All above my posted are from public forum:

http://www.xhclub.net
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 11/03/2008 10:53 AM
From Xinhua, China expected to open tendering for 1st moon rover  (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-11/01/content_10292057.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 11/05/2008 01:47 PM
From Xinhua China's Space Industry takes off (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-11/05/content_10312942.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: wbhh on 11/06/2008 03:02 AM
http://news.xinhuanet.com/newscenter/2008-10/28/content_10267364.htm

They will launch 12 Beidou navigation satellites around 2009, passive navigation service nearby China will be available by 2010.

That's too crazy ???
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 11/06/2008 09:20 AM
http://news.xinhuanet.com/newscenter/2008-10/28/content_10267364.htm

They will launch 12 Beidou navigation satellites around 2009, passive navigation service nearby China will be available by 2010.

That's too crazy ???

In deed. That's one thing we will have to wait and see. Does China has capability to do it? If they launch from Xi Chang that implies more than a launch each month taking into account that there are other sats to launch. But the BeiDou program is an important part of the Chinese space program and we don't see a launch for a while now.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: wbhh on 11/06/2008 02:32 PM
Yes, the plan is unnecessary and impossible.
Unless the war is coming, or they are becoming prattlers.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: wbhh on 11/11/2008 10:36 AM
http://news.ifeng.com/mil/2/200811/1110_340_870209.shtml

The chief designer of China manned space said:
Quote
Compe to Japan/India/Europe, China still has many shortages such as industry base, componet, materials.

It's according with what the president of ISRO said:
Quote
How do you compare India with China?

Compared to China we are better off in many areas. For example our communication satellites are world class. Chinese still depend on some foreign companies to supply some components. On launchers, we have very advanced capability. As far as manned-mission is concerned we are lagging behind, but that was a conscious decision on our part. Since it involves a lot of funds, in the initial phase of the moon programme we have not given thrust to that area. But given the funds and necessary approvals we can easily catch up with our neighbour in this area.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 11/12/2008 10:50 AM
From Xinhua, Official: China to launch 2nd lunar probe before 2012 (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-11/12/content_10346892.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 11/14/2008 10:53 PM
From People's Daily, 'Tester' satellite to be launched (http://english.people.com.cn/90001/6532737.html).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: wbhh on 12/05/2008 04:06 AM
new 50t oxyhydrogen engine 500 seconds test has succeeded.

http://www.spacechina.com/xwzx_zyxw_Details.shtml?recno=57998
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: wbhh on 12/06/2008 03:35 AM
China got its first solid-liquid mixing engine test on a small sounding rocket.

date: 2008-12-5
location: JiuQuan satellite launch center
maker: Beijing University of Aeronautics & Astronautics

http://news.xinhuanet.com/edu/2008-12/06/content_10463971.htm

payload:
(http://news.buaa.edu.cn/txtimage/28046-1.jpg)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 12/07/2008 05:14 PM
From Xinhua, China's future astronauts will be scientists, not pilots, official says (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-12/04/content_10457457.htm).

From Xinhua, Space mission commander gives clues on first Hong Kong astronaut (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-12/05/content_10462746.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: summit2 on 12/08/2008 08:49 AM
Following Satory news about hybrid rocket, I made some quick google search about the famous Tsinghua Research Center . There is an interesting paper about hybrid rocket here:

http://www.tsinghua.edu.cn/docsn/lxx/mainpage/a/Web/index_files/Page694.htm

Tsinhua testing engine could be the same as the recent Beihang-2 (The rocket was 3.417 m long and 0.22 m in diameter). One the structural reason of that could be the collaboration between Tsingua Research Space Center, the School of Astronautics of Beijing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics and the Beihang University.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: wbhh on 12/13/2008 03:24 AM
Satori, here is another dictionary & translation software, free for all, it has very plenty words and phrases.

you can try it(谷歌金山词霸合作版) from this page.
http://pack.google.com/intl/zh-cn/pack_installer.html


According to CCTV's report, China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation(CASC) announced today: the new generation of China telecommunications broadcast satellite (XinNuo-5 and XinNuo-6) will be launched in 3 years. weather satellite FengYun-2(3 satellites of batch 03) will be launched in 2010/2012/2014.

As the report, the 3 satellites of FengYun-2 are the third batch of FengYun-2, they are a part of Chinese weather satellites, will be used for weather observing and forecasting.

XinNuo-5 and XinNuo-6 use DongFangHong-4 as theirs satellite bus(platform), which means they have high capability, long lifetime(15 years), high tech. They will be lanuched via LongMarch-3B in XiChang Launch Center. XinNuo-5 will replace XinNuo-1, scheduled be handed over to end user in the end of month of June/2011.

XinNuo-6 will replace XinNuo-3, is a special purpose of TV Broadcast Satellite, it include a S-band payload experiment, which in order to protect China's declared orbital position and frequency. it scheduled be handed over to end user in the end of month of June/2010.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: henrypan123 on 02/28/2009 06:25 PM
This is a video about China's Space Program which is made by a space fan of China. I just post the video here, but it doesn't mean that I do verify its validity. I think this video has a lot of information that we should follow closely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP5cvVK5sGA
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: wbhh on 03/02/2009 10:03 AM
Chinese to Build 'Impossible' Space Drive
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=14423.0

This research already into National Natural Science Foundation of China, http://www.nsfc.gov.cn (http://www.nsfc.gov.cn)

  ID:90716019/A050201
  Name:能源内置无工质微波推进的理论和实验研究
  Principal:杨涓
  Organization:西北工业大学
  Period:2008-01至2010-12

Some papers about it
基于量子理论的无工质微波推进性能计算分析
http://www.yhxb.org/oa/darticle.aspx?type=view&id=08528

局域环境中微波等离子体电子密度诊断实验研究
http://www.cnki.com.cn/Article/CJFDTotal-WLXB200803079.htm

100W微波等离子推力器的调试与地面实验
http://www.cnki.com.cn/Article/CJFD2003-GTHJ200302021.htm

微波等离子推力器谐振腔的数值模拟与小推力测量实验研究     
http://epub.cnki.net/grid2008/detail.aspx?filename=2003101466&dbname=CDFD2004
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 03/02/2009 12:18 PM
From Xinhua, China to land probe on moon at latest in 2013, chief designer says (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-03/02/content_10929966.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: hesidu on 03/17/2009 10:27 PM
http://news.ifeng.com/mil/2/200903/0317_340_1064993.shtml

According to this news, China planned to launch a nuclear powered satellite in 2025.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: wbhh on 03/27/2009 08:48 AM
Let's guess, what was the mission 8-77?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: hesidu on 03/28/2009 02:30 PM
CASC (China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation)

http://www.youtube.com/v/KJxy4qEiakk&hl=zh_CN&fs=1&rel=0
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: wbhh on 05/02/2009 02:34 AM
Chang'e-2 will test soft landing on the moon
http://news.ifeng.com/mil/2/200905/0502_340_1135931.shtml
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: wbhh on 05/04/2009 02:26 AM
YuanWang-6 visit HongKong

http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/htm_data/25/0904/183956.html
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: hal on 05/08/2009 07:50 AM
Interesting link with schematic of Lunar Landing approach

http://www.china-defense-mashup.com/?p=991
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 05/23/2009 06:56 PM
From Xinhua, China considering manned lunar landing in 2025-2030: expert (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-05/24/content_11425131.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 05/27/2009 08:00 PM
Maybe more informed ChiSpace watchers could let us know exactly how realistic this proposal is. 

Consider: NASA's return-to-the-Moon plans are already slipping (they seem to have slipped back a decade since the program was first expected).  With this in mind, how realistic is this expert's prediction be? I admit that there are a lot of unknowns but we can probably make an educated guess with their progress thus far.
Title: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 06/12/2009 09:59 PM
From People's Daily, Moon base camp possible by 2030 (http://english.people.com.cn/90001/6676827.html).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: limen4 on 06/13/2009 04:36 PM
According to www.dpi.inpe.br/gilberto/present/cbers_overview2009.ppt a SAR version of CBERS is planned, which obviously uses the Yaogan-1,3 design.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 06/14/2009 01:18 PM
From People's Daily, Moon base camp possible by 2030 (http://english.people.com.cn/90001/6676827.html).

What's interesting about this is that a 'Moon base camp' is a later-phase objective of lunar exploration.  This would imply reaching the Moon before 2030 and doing so enough times to develop confidence in the launch vehicle, EDS and lunar orbit-to-surface technology for crew and cargo alike. 

Now, I know that this is just vague crystal balling.  However, I would say that to meet an objective moon base IOC in 2030, the Chinese must look at a first crewed lunar landing no later than 2025.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: limen4 on 06/17/2009 05:24 PM
According to http://news.xinhuanet.com/internet/2009-06/15/content_11543966.htm  Beijing-2 will launch next year. Maybe my online translation is not correct and only the satellite construction will start next year.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 07/09/2009 10:39 PM
From Xinhua, China's first female astronaut expected to complete space journey by 2012 (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-07/09/content_11679492.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: tonyq on 07/10/2009 07:12 AM
If I can make a shameless plug here, by coincidence, the August issue of 'Spaceflight' includes an article I have written about China's search for a female taikonaut.

http://www.bis-spaceflight.com/sitesia.aspx/page/184/id/1920/l/en-gb

Although it was finalised 4 or 5 weeks ago it does include the names of the 16 female fighter pilots, one of whom will be selected to go into space in 2012.

Here is a photo of the group taken in January 2009. All are PLAAF Lieutenants, born between 1985 and 1988.

Depending upon who they chose, and exactly when they go into space, the girl who is selected could become the youngest ever space traveller.

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: hop on 07/21/2009 02:09 AM
In interesting article on the history of the Chinese space program: http://www.amacad.org/publications/spaceChina.aspx
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 07/23/2009 05:41 PM
From Xinhua, China's first space telescope anticipated to be launched in 2012 (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-07/23/content_11760517.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 07/27/2009 10:17 AM
A couple of questions for more experienced China watchers:

Are the Chinese focussing more on a robot/satellite-based space exploration program at the moment or are their unmanned and HSF programs getting about equal attention?

Is the long gap between Shenzhou-7 and the Tiangong-1-based missions simply due to a lack of any good reason to waste money on a crewed launch or does it indicate a real difficulty on China's part to sustain HSF operations?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phillip Clark on 07/27/2009 12:11 PM
A couple of questions for more experienced China watchers:

Are the Chinese focussing more on a robot/satellite-based space exploration program at the moment or are their unmanned and HSF programs getting about equal attention?

Is the long gap between Shenzhou-7 and the Tiangong-1-based missions simply due to a lack of any good reason to waste money on a crewed launch or does it indicate a real difficulty on China's part to sustain HSF operations?

Be patient!!

Historically, the Chinese space programme has worked at the pace of a dead snail that's been nailed to the floor.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: William Barton on 07/27/2009 12:22 PM
I think of the Chinese manned space program as a pretty good example of "go as you pay." It helps that they can skip the multi-mission test programs and do all of Mercury/Vostok in one flight, then significant parts of Voskhod/Gemini in another flight, more of Voskhod/Gemini/early Soyuz in a second flight, etc.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 08/03/2009 11:20 AM
From Xinhua, China conducts stringent tests of would-be spacemen (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-08/03/content_11816370.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 08/03/2009 11:21 AM
From SpaceDaily, My Decade with Shenzhou (http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/My_Decade_with_Shenzhou_999.html).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: tonyq on 08/09/2009 06:40 PM
The regular flow of predictions about female taikonauts continues, with Yang Liwei and Col. Sui Goushong, head of PLAAF recruitment confirming, during July, that some members of the 16 female fighter pilot group, that graduated in April 2009, will definitely be included in the imminent second taikonaut selection, for a Shenzhou ride in 2012.

In the meantime, the PLAAF have released posed protraits of all 16 taikonaut candidates, taken in a style which would not be out of place in a celebrity magazine.

Anyone like to speculate who they'll send up?



(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/tonyquine/Chinese/SunMei.jpg)
Lt. Sun Mei

(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/tonyquine/Chinese/TaoJiaLi2009-5.jpg)
Lt. Tao JiaLi
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/tonyquine/Chinese/WangXin.jpg)
Lt. Wang Xin
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/tonyquine/Chinese/YuXu3.jpg)

Lt. Yu Xu
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/tonyquine/Chinese/HeXiaoLi2.jpg)
Lt. He Xiao Li
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/tonyquine/Chinese/LiMin.jpg)
Lt. Li Min
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/tonyquine/Chinese/LiuXin.jpg)
Lt. Liu Xin
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/tonyquine/Chinese/LuPin.jpg)
Lt. Lu Pin
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/tonyquine/Chinese/LuYun.jpg)
Lt. Lu Yun
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/tonyquine/Chinese/ShengYifei.jpg)
Lt. Sheng Yifei
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/tonyquine/Chinese/ZhangXaio.jpg)
Lt. Zhang Xaio
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/tonyquine/Chinese/ZhangXaiojia.jpg)
Lt. Zhang Xaiojia
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/tonyquine/Chinese/ZhangBo2.jpg)
Lt. Zhang Bo
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/tonyquine/Chinese/ZhongQin.jpg)
Lt. Zhong Qin
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/tonyquine/Chinese/ZhouShuai.jpg)
Lt. Zhou Shuai
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/tonyquine/Chinese/ZhangXain.jpg)
Lt. Zhang Xain
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Queysther on 08/19/2009 10:48 AM
The regular flow of predictions about female taikonauts continues, with Yang Liwei and Col. Sui Goushong, head of PLAAF recruitment confirming, during July, that some members of the 16 female fighter pilot group, that graduated in April 2009, will definitely be included in the imminent second taikonaut selection, for a Shenzhou ride in 2012.

In the meantime, the PLAAF have released posed protraits of all 16 taikonaut candidates, taken in a style which would not be out of place in a celebrity magazine.

Anyone like to speculate who they'll send up?

Well, they do have the advantage of having some really pretty girls in there... They beat female US astronauts and Russian cosmonauts hands down!
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: spacex on 09/17/2009 05:10 AM
China finishes preliminary selection of new astronauts, one third women

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-09/17/content_12067927.htm
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: tonyq on 09/17/2009 08:26 AM
China finishes preliminary selection of new astronauts, one third women

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-09/17/content_12067927.htm

A bit of a surprise here, in that the 15 women are all transport pilots. All previous build up to this announcement has suggested they would only select fighter pilots as taikonauts, and the women candidates would therefore have to come from the group pictured above, as the only female fighter pilots in China.

This means the 15 short-listed must come from the previous female pilot group who graduated in 2001, as they will now be aged around 29-31, which fits the age profile of the 45 candidates.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Liss on 09/17/2009 01:22 PM
Here's the Chinese language report with some additional details: http://news.xinhuanet.com/tech/2009-09/17/content_12067793.htm
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: spacex on 09/17/2009 02:30 PM
China Focus: China selects female astronaut candidates

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-09/17/content_12070085.htm
Title: Re: China To Push Space Program
Post by: madscientist197 on 09/18/2009 09:42 AM
Copyright AFP 2008, AFP stories and photos shall not be published, broadcast, rewritten for broadcast or publication or redistributed directly or indirectly in any medium

Did you read this before you posted? Perhaps a link to the original website might have been more appropriate ;)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 09/22/2009 10:03 AM
From People's Daily Online, China to set up manned space station around 2020 (http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90776/90881/6764745.html).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 09/24/2009 05:40 AM
Well, they do have the advantage of having some really pretty girls in there... They beat female US astronauts and Russian cosmonauts hands down!
Yeah, but Koreans managed to pull ahead already

http://21stcenturywaves.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/yi2.jpg
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: spacex on 09/25/2009 08:03 PM
Fascinating and insightful article on AW:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=awst&id=news/china092809.xml&headline=China%20Shows%20U.S.%20Delegation%20Next%20Spacecraft
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: spacex on 09/25/2009 08:20 PM
A good primer into the Chinese space industry

http://www.jamestown.org/programs/chinabrief/single/?tx_ttnews[tt_news]=35537&tx_ttnews[backPid]=25&cHash=1aa5df5489
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 09/26/2009 01:29 PM
From China Daily, Bolivia set to buy Chinese telecoms satellite (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-09/25/content_8736008.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 09/26/2009 01:30 PM
From Xinhua, China to launch communication satellite for Laos (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-09/26/content_12113434.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: spacex on 10/01/2009 01:24 AM
CNN Videos:

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/tech/2009/09/29/vause.china.taikonauts.cnn?iref=videosearch

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/international/2009/09/30/talk.asia.a.chinese.astronauts.cnn?iref=videosearch

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/international/2009/09/30/talk.asia.c.chinese.astronauts.cnn?iref=videosearch
Title: 60th anniversary of the poeple republic of China
Post by: summit2 on 10/06/2009 08:00 AM
Title: China's satellite diplomacy shifts a gear
Post by: osiossim on 10/08/2009 07:40 AM
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/KJ07Ad01.html

China's satellite diplomacy shifts a gear
Title: Re: China's satellite diplomacy shifts a gear
Post by: input~2 on 10/08/2009 11:20 AM
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/KJ07Ad01.html

China's satellite diplomacy shifts a gear
The author of this article seems to have mixed up the IOD (satellite + launch+insurance+ ground station) price tag with a "satellite only" price tag..
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: spacex on 10/16/2009 03:52 PM
China Begins Lunar Landings Study

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=space&id=news/China101609.xml&headline=China%20Begins%20Lunar%20Landings%20Study
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 10/24/2009 01:21 PM
From Xinhua, Bolivia, China, ITU sign understanding statement for satellite construction (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-10/24/content_12313740.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 12/18/2009 11:30 AM
From Xinhua, China to launch civil HD survey satellite in 2011 (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-12/18/content_12667540.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: tonyq on 12/20/2009 09:42 AM
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-09/17/content_12067927.htm

Although there's been no official update on the selection of China's second taikonaut group, which should include two female transport pilots, this photo has appeared on a Chinese space web-blog.

She is PLAAF transport pilot Lt. Li Lingchao. She is 30 and joined the PLAAF in 1997, graduating in 2001. She is married and has a young child -see the second image.

No idea if this is really of any significance, but there must be some reason why she's apparently doing some spaceflight related training?

 
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 12/30/2009 10:59 AM
From Xinhua, Chinese scientists seek support for dark matter mission in space (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-12/29/content_12723802.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: HappyMartian on 01/05/2010 12:43 PM
There is an interesting article at Asia Times:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/LA06Ad01.html
   
China's space program poised to surge
By Peter J Brown

Peter J Brown begins the article with, "China's space program is poised to surge ahead at a brisk pace in 2010. In fact, over the next 12 months, China's activities in space may be such that when all is said and done, 2010 could well rank as one of China's top years thus far in terms of the total number and variety of missions launched."

Cheers!
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 01/09/2010 04:19 PM
From Xinhua, Astronautical exhibition continues to welcome visitors in E China (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2010-01/09/content_12779859.htm).
Title: Bolivia satellite
Post by: spacex on 01/15/2010 01:35 AM
China to build, launch Bolivia satellite
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2010/01/11/China-to-build-launch-Bolivia-satellite/UPI-17091263251627/
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 01/20/2010 11:03 AM
From China Daily, China might explore other planets (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2010-01/19/content_9343466.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: spacex on 02/01/2010 12:22 AM
Could be of interest for those in the UK:
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/UK_First_China_Space_Race_Exhibition_Launched_999.html
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 02/25/2010 01:38 PM
From VOA News, China to Build Laos' First Satellite (http://www.voanews.com/lao/2010-01-19-voa6.cfm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: tonyq on 03/05/2010 01:00 PM
Former Shenzhou chief designer Qi Faren has confirmed, in this media interview, that two female taikonauts have now been selected and are expected to be involved in the Shenzhou 9 and 10 missions, planned for 2011/12.

No names have been revealed, although another version of this report confirms they are both PLAAF pilots.   


http://www.zaobao.com/wencui/2010/03/hongkong100304v.shtml

"Female candidates train for space shot on Tiangong 1 next year

Chinese Political Consultative Conference member, space technology expert Qi Faren, today revealed to this newspaper, China's new generation of astronauts has already completed the selection, including two female astronauts. He also said that China's "Tiangong 1" target spacecraft is expected to be launched in 2011, and in the subsequent two years, with the Shenzhou 8, Shenzhou 9, and Shenzhou 10 rendezvous and docking test, and the formation of a short-term manned experiments room.

Qi Faren says China's manned spaceflight project is currently the second step - a space laboratory stage, and will be a breakthrough at this stage, four key technologies.......... the second key technology is the rendezvous and docking, "Tiangong 1" in space flight two years, will we have accomplished with the Shenzhou 8, 9 and 10 docking in space and has basically mastered the spacecraft rendezvous and docking technology. The third key technology for the spacecraft supplies propellant, air, water, food, etc.; the fourth key technology is the regenerative life support systems.

Qi Faren said, in the future will be launched on the Shenzhou 8 unmanned spacecraft, Shenzhou 9 and Shenzhou 10 manned spacecraft will each carry 2-3 astronauts. It is understood that China's new generation of astronauts, especially female astronauts, will be involved in the implementation of these tasks and participate in Shenzhou 9 or 10................."

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: spacex on 03/08/2010 01:22 PM
China cherry picks 7 astronauts; 2 female
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2010-03/08/content_9555090.htm
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: tonyq on 03/12/2010 09:38 AM
Eight, of the fifteen, female candidates have now been identified in the Chinese media and basic biographies are now at 'Spacefacts':-

 http://www.spacefacts.de/english/bio_cand.htm

There is ofcourse, no certainty that the two who have been selected to join the second taikonaut team are in this number, although much Chinese media coverage seems to focus around Wang Yaping.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Liss on 03/12/2010 05:51 PM
Tony, how do you know that these eight women participated in the selection? We do know that both new woman cosmonauts are from the seventh women pilot group but we do not know if all the fifteen candidates were from it.

By the way, there is the list of 19 women from the seventh group from 21 which graduated from it:

Cao Yanyan
Chen Jinlan
Chen Yu
Li Guohan
Li Lingchao
Liu Yang
Liu Lu
Shang Xiuhong
Song Xuefei
Sun Jing
Tan Hongmei
Wang Dan
Wang Hui
Wang Si
Wang Yaping
Wang Ying
Xing Lei
Yan Fang
Yang Guang
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 03/12/2010 07:32 PM
Eight, of the fifteen, female candidates have now been identified in the Chinese media and basic biographies are now at 'Spacefacts':-

 http://www.spacefacts.de/english/bio_cand.htm

From that site:

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: tonyq on 03/12/2010 08:23 PM
Igor - we can be 99.9% sure that all 15 came from the 7th Group of pilots because China only recruits women every 8 years. These were from 1997, the previous group from 1989 and the latest group in 2005.

The Chinese have previously said that applicants for the second taikonaut group had to be between 25 and 35 and when they announced their short list in September 2009, they said the 45 (men and women) were all aged between 27 and 34 and also said the average age of the women was 29.5 years old.

All this means that the 1989 group would be too old (approx. 37 years) and the 2005 group too young (approx. 23 years).

Turning to the eight on Spacefacts, five were named in the Chinese media earlier this week :-

http://www.china.org.cn/china/2010-03/09/content_19566078.htm

The others have been named in more Chinese language websites, by local newspapers, who have interviewed parents and school teachers etc.

Hope this clarifies where this information came from.

Where did you get the list of 19 names from for the '7th group'? It is very similar to a list I have compiled from Chinese media?

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Liss on 03/13/2010 06:47 AM
Tony, the list of 19 is from http://www.9ifly.cn/sub/thread-1737-1-1.html (message #22). In fact, it contains only 17 names; Sun Jing and Wang Ying were found when checking the initial list against the name of their group -- 中国第七批女飞行员. I've seen an article saying 37 women were selected for the 7th group and only 21 graduated.

As of the first five names (Wang Yaping etc.), the initial source seems to be unofficial (while well-informed) Wen Wei Po, and in my humble understanding they did not stated for sure of the status of 'five Shandong girls'.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: tonyq on 03/13/2010 09:06 AM
Igor-thanks for the link to that list of 17 names - I had not seen it before, although I had seen the article which refers to 37 recruits and 21 graduates.

I think I can add one name to your list - Zhang Zhongfang (张忠芳) . I have a couple of other names but I'm less certain they are definitely from the 7th group, so we seem to be missing one name. It is possible that one or two may have left, been grounded, or otherwise dropped out of the picture since they graduated in 2001.

I have links to a report last October which mentions that Wang Hui and Yan Fang took part in exercises in connection with the 60th Anniversary celebrations (with two pilots from the 6th group) and Wang specifically said in interview, that they had not made the final round of astronaut selections, so we can take those names off the list.

This is the original report in WenWeiPo which includes the 'five' names.

http://trans.wenweipo.com/gb/paper.wenweipo.com/2010/03/06/YO1003060008.htm

I accept these comments are 'unofficial', but so is everything in China, until such time as we get 'official' announcement of the two finalists. Even then, it is unlikely all the unsuccessful candidates will be named so all we can do is piece these bits of information together, cross check, and do our best to come up with the right answer.

So, we now have 18 possible names of which we can be 99% sure that 15 were examined as candidates, so even without this information from WenWeiPo, there is very strong chance that the 5 they have mentioned were in the 15.

As I said, the other 3 names have emerged individually since the WenWeiPo report, mentioned by local Chinese media in their home towns, where they seem to be local celebrities, and their parents and school teachers etc. have been on TV. 
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Liss on 03/13/2010 03:02 PM
I think I can add one name to your list - Zhang Zhongfang (张忠芳) . I have a couple of other names but I'm less certain they are definitely from the 7th group, so we seem to be missing one name. It is possible that one or two may have left, been grounded, or otherwise dropped out of the picture since they graduated in 2001.
My guess is that the 21st member of group 7 is Li Li (李丽).
Liu Wenli and Liu Yuhuan are being mentioned in some articles with group 7 memners but I think they are from Group 6.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: tonyq on 03/13/2010 03:56 PM
My guess is that the 21st member of group 7 is Li Li (李丽).
Liu Wenli and Liu Yuhuan are being mentioned in some articles with group 7 memners but I think they are from Group 6.

I have the name Li Li in my records, but not sure which group, so you may well be right. I will pencil her into Group 7 to complete the set. The other two are definitely from the earlier group 6.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 04/02/2010 01:36 PM
From Reuters, Bolivia, China team up on communications satellite (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE63035220100401).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 04/11/2010 01:01 PM
China's Manned Space Program Takes the Stage at 26th National Space Symposium (http://www.spacefoundation.org/news/story.php?id=943).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 04/11/2010 10:47 PM
China's Manned Space Program Takes the Stage at 26th National Space Symposium (http://www.spacefoundation.org/news/story.php?id=943).

That's interesting and encouraging.  Hopefully Wang Wenbao's talk will educate the people in the room about what China is trying to do in human spaceflight.  There's so much misinformation about what China is doing in human spaceflight that it's good he is getting this exposure to this crowd.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: spacex on 04/15/2010 01:34 AM
A writeup of his talk:
http://www.spacenews.com/civil/100414-path-china-space-station.html
Very informative talk from a highly credible and well-placed source.

WSJ interview:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304159304575184442226504292.html?mod=WSJ_WSJ_US_PoliticsNCampaign_4
This writer somewhat exaggerates China's capabilities and plans here
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: spacex on 04/15/2010 08:27 PM
Op-ed by Yang Liwei about the upcoming Shanghai Expo

http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/shdaily_sing.asp?id=433750&type=Feature&page=0
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 04/27/2010 09:05 PM
I dont know if this has been mentioned, but it seems the Chinese are developing an unmanned cargo craft (ala Progress) and are offering it to the US for use with the International Space station (although I can guarantee that wont happen)

Quote
China’s human spaceflight program is developing a 13-ton cargo carrier to supply the space station it plans to orbit late this decade, but the program’s leader is ready to discuss using it for International Space Station logistics, as well.

Wang Wenbao, head of the China Manned Space Engineering Office, says his agency is prepared to cooperate across the board on human spaceflight with NASA and other agencies, including joint human missions and unpiloted logistics with the 5.5-ton-payload-capacity cargo vehicle it plans to test after 2014-16.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=space&id=news/awst/2010/04/19/AW_04_19_2010_p32-219706.xml&headline=China%20Open%20To%20Human%20Spaceflight%20Cooperation

The test flights seem to be well after COTS/CRS begins,so I don't understand why they are bothering.....
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: neilh on 04/27/2010 11:44 PM
I dont know if this has been mentioned, but it seems the Chinese are developing an unmanned cargo craft (ala Progress) and are offering it to the US for use with the International Space station (although I can guarantee that wont happen)

Are there any particular reasons for why there generally seems to be much more apprehension about NASA collaborating with China than with Russia?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Jorge on 04/28/2010 12:05 AM
I dont know if this has been mentioned, but it seems the Chinese are developing an unmanned cargo craft (ala Progress) and are offering it to the US for use with the International Space station (although I can guarantee that wont happen)

Are there any particular reasons for why there generally seems to be much more apprehension about NASA collaborating with China than with Russia?

All the disadvantages of collaborating with Russia with none of the advantages?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: kraisee on 04/28/2010 05:50 AM
China is America's biggest industrial competitor in the world market.

Ross.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Hootz on 04/28/2010 09:43 PM
"China is America's biggest industrial competitor in the world market"

Really?? Is there still any competition going on?
I for one am going to start boning up on my Mandarin. When China starts calling in their chips......it's gonna be real ugly. IMO
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: spacex on 04/29/2010 01:06 AM
I dont know if this has been mentioned, but it seems the Chinese are developing an unmanned cargo craft (ala Progress) and are offering it to the US for use with the International Space station (although I can guarantee that wont happen)

The test flights seem to be well after COTS/CRS begins,so I don't understand why they are bothering.....

I don't think their point is to develop a cargo craft for the ISS. It is for their own space station that they intend to launch this decade. If they keep progressing (no reason to doubt they won't) they will eventually attain the capabilities of a Russia (except a Russia that is likely to have limited to no relations with NASA in the future). Bottom line is I see China doing their own thing for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: sdsds on 04/29/2010 11:34 PM
I dont know if this has been mentioned, but it seems the Chinese are developing an unmanned cargo craft (ala Progress) and are offering it to the US for use with the International Space station (although I can guarantee that wont happen)

Are there any particular reasons for why there generally seems to be much more apprehension about NASA collaborating with China than with Russia?

All the disadvantages of collaborating with Russia with none of the advantages?

I see the validity of this point of view from a technical perspective.  But one of the main advantages of collaboration between NASA and the Russian space program was non-technical. Engagement of this sort kept the focus of the Russian effort on cooperation in reaching shared goals, and kept their focus away from areas where U.S. and Russian goals might have been in conflict. Of course cultural differences and differences in engineering design philosophies caused some difficulties!  Hopefully the gains from collaboration were, and will continue to be, worth the effort.

It's probably the same thing with China, only the stakes are higher.  The human spaceflight effort of China is likely motivated by both civilian and military goals.  By asking NASA to engage with China, we might be able to shift their focus more towards the civilian side of the effort!
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 05/07/2010 06:46 PM
New astronauts recruited for China's space program (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/sci/2010-05/07/c_13282481.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 05/07/2010 06:47 PM
Space debris to boost construction of Hainan int'l tourism island (http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90776/90881/6974426.html).
Title: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 05/08/2010 03:32 PM
China signs up first female astronauts (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2010-05/08/c_13282790.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: wbhh on 05/13/2010 05:01 AM
official discussion of landing on the moon.

http://scitech.people.com.cn/GB/11567265.html
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: sdsds on 05/13/2010 08:27 AM
official discussion of landing on the moon.

http://scitech.people.com.cn/GB/11567265.html

Thanks for posting this!

The google translation to English is:
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fscitech.people.com.cn%2FGB%2F11567265.html&sl=auto&tl=en

In the second paragraph, which starts, "Delegates generally agreed," google uses the word "power."  Should this be understood as political power or e.g. electric power?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: wbhh on 05/13/2010 09:28 AM
It should be "national power", scientific, political, etc. It said: Landing on the moon supports the development of national power in future.

Certainly not talking about electric. :D
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: tonyq on 05/15/2010 09:52 AM
China signs up first female astronauts (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2010-05/08/c_13282790.htm).


These latest reports, plus an interview with General Zhang, a former senior official in their manned programme give several clues as to the background and identities of the two women selected.

Back in message 113, Liss published the names of 19 women who were in the initial pilot group from which the women were being chosen.

The latest information now tells us they are:-

Both aged 30+
Both married
Both hail from Northern provinces
At least one took part in flood relief operations in Sichuan in 2008

Applying these filters to the list of 19, we can eliminate 7 or 8 names, and of those who are left, they must remain as possibles, simply because we know so little about them, that the filters cannot be applied.

However, there are two names who definitely tick all these boxes and who have both featured previously in Chinese media coverage of the astronaut selection process.

So, based on all known information these are the most likely to be China's first woman in space.

Captain Cao Yanyan age 31, born Jinan, Shandong Province

Captain Wang Yaping age 32, born Yantai, Shandong Province

I am not saying that these two are definitely the pair chosen, simply that in an ever decreasing field of possible candidates, these two continue to meet all the  biographical and experience criteria. This analysis may change if any more fragments of biographical data emerge, and I am keeping a careful eye on the Chinese media for such details.



Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: simpl simon on 05/15/2010 10:59 AM
The IAF and CSA are hosting the Global Lunar Conference in Beijing from May 31 to June 3.  See: http://www.gluc2010.org/

Quite a broad selection of international space agencies are supporting this conference, so it will be interesting to see if the recent Manned Space Program meeting is mentioned.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: input~2 on 05/19/2010 02:28 PM
According to Chinese media (http://news.xinhuanet.com/mil/2010-05/19/content_13521066.htm), the Beidou-II/Compass constellation will now achieve global coverage around 2020. Coverage of China is expected in 2012.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 05/22/2010 06:33 PM
From Xinhua, New post for famous Chinese astronaut  (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2010-05/22/c_13309310.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: spacex on 06/01/2010 05:13 PM
Article on the ongoing Global Lunar Conference in Beijing

China may become space station partner
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2010-06/01/c_13326632.htm
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: sdsds on 06/01/2010 09:31 PM
Article on the ongoing Global Lunar Conference in Beijing

China may become space station partner
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2010-06/01/c_13326632.htm

Once again this article contains explicit references to China's view that national "power" is an important aspect of human spaceflight.  Essentially the same observation is repeated twice:  "With growing power based on its independent technological development, China is being invited to more international cooperatives in space exploration in recent years," and "China's growing power in space technology is the reason that China is involved in and invited to more international cooperation projects."

This word might denote simply "technological capability," or  it might have connotations more like "geopolitical dominance."
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: spacex on 06/01/2010 09:58 PM
Article on the ongoing Global Lunar Conference in Beijing

China may become space station partner
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2010-06/01/c_13326632.htm

Once again this article contains explicit references to China's view that national "power" is an important aspect of human spaceflight.  Essentially the same observation is repeated twice:  "With growing power based on its independent technological development, China is being invited to more international cooperatives in space exploration in recent years," and "China's growing power in space technology is the reason that China is involved in and invited to more international cooperation projects."

This word might denote simply "technological capability," or  it might have connotations more like "geopolitical dominance."

I would probably think its more about the former. The Chinese, unlike the Russians, tend to be highly cautious (to a fault) about suggesting they desire any geopolitical dominance/influence. Of course, it is also logical that by developing technically capabilities, they can translate this into soft power which they do desire.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: hal9000 on 06/25/2010 11:57 AM
Not sure if this youtube videos has already been posted here:

Moon landing plans:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF5EYEJqY1o&feature=related

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: HappyMartian on 07/24/2010 06:18 AM
China is participating. The downloads of the initial plans are interesting. The discussion thread is titled: NASA and International Agencies Meet to Discuss Human and Robotic Exploration and is located at:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=22127.0

The Reference Architecture is now available on the ISECG website.



http://www.globalspaceexploration.org/c/document_library/get_file?uuid=7cb7e62e-b2a5-4dfe-9da8-25043a4f5145&groupId=10812




The Reference Architecture is now available on the ISECG website.

http://www.globalspaceexploration.org/c/document_library/get_file?uuid=7cb7e62e-b2a5-4dfe-9da8-25043a4f5145&groupId=10812

That is a very well thought out document.  Exactly what would be needed if an international mission were to be attempted.

Is there a robotic architecture document coming too?

The ISECG team had the task of creating an integrated robotic/human exploration architecture, i.e., using robots to support human activities.

Another working group, the ILEWG, has produced a presentation (attached) on their approach, the Global Robotic Village. Googling this subject will produce other, perhaps better, results.

Alternatively, and cosily related, a COSPAR report (also attached) by the Panel on Exploration (PEX) looks at the subject of exploration from a science viewpoint. The "Village" makes an appearance here, too.

But I would still like to hear from anyone else with views on the ISECG report.



Downloads:

http://www.globalspaceexploration.org/c/document_library/get_file?uuid=7cb7e62e-b2a5-4dfe-9da8-25043a4f5145&groupId=10812

http://csis.org/files/attachments/091112_Foing_Ehrenfreund.pdf

http://cosparhq.cnes.fr/PEX_Report2010_June22a.pdf



Enjoy!

Cheers!
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 07/30/2010 10:48 AM
From China Mashup, China to launch high-resolution mapping satellite in 2011 (http://www.china-defense-mashup.com/?p=6267).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: tonyq on 08/17/2010 12:21 PM
China reporting that construction of their Tiangong 1 small station module has been completed.

http://military.china.com/zh_cn/important/64/20100817/16084836.html

They are now testing the module's electronic, mechanical and thermal properties.

They appear to be on track for a launch in H1 2011, with an unmanned Shenzhou 8 docking in H2 2011, and two manned visits in 2012.

Mentions that the newly recruited second taikonaut group, including the two women, have been undertaking familiarisation with the Tiangong 1, as they will be involved in the manned flights.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: spacex on 08/17/2010 04:41 PM
China reporting that construction of their Tiangong 1 small station module has been completed.

http://military.china.com/zh_cn/important/64/20100817/16084836.html

They are now testing the module's electronic, mechanical and thermal properties.

They appear to be on track for a launch in H1 2011, with an unmanned Shenzhou 8 docking in H2 2011, and two manned visits in 2012.

Mentions that the newly recruited second taikonaut group, including the two women, have been undertaking familiarisation with the Tiangong 1, as they will be involved in the manned flights.

The link has nice photos. Some I had not seen before.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: aquanaut99 on 08/17/2010 04:56 PM
Don't know if this has been posted before, but here is globalsecurity's analysis and take on the future of China's manned space program. There is also some speculative info on the planned CZ-X(8?) super-heavy booster:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/world/china/cz-x.htm
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 10/27/2010 10:23 AM
From Xinhua, China kicks off manned space station program (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2010-10/27/c_13578017.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: avitek on 10/27/2010 10:57 AM
From Xinhua, China kicks off manned space station program (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2010-10/27/c_13578017.htm).

Somewhat more in Chinese at
http://itv.jschina.com.cn/n/201010/t537962.shtml

Trnaslation via MDBG:

Xinhua News Agency, Beijing, October 27 - (Tian Zhao Yun, Zhang Liwen) China Manned Space Engineering News 27, said a spokesman for China's manned space station project has been officially launched, will be completed by 2020, large-scale, long-term participating countries was class space laboratory.

China's manned space station project is divided into a space laboratory and space station in two phases. 2016, develop and launch a space laboratory, a breakthrough and master the medium-term presence of astronauts and other key technologies of the space station to carry out a certain amount of space applications; 2020, developed and launched the core module and the JEM, assembled in orbit, a manned space station, breaking through and master the combination of near-Earth space station construction and operation of technology, near-term manned space flight technology, and conduct large-scale space applications.

The spokesman also introduced China's manned space station construction, will fully inherit the results of early manned spaceflight, Shenzhou spacecraft continue to use the existing Long March II F carrier rocket, launch and landing site. Manned space station is completed, the full realization of China's manned space flight, "three-step" development strategy to further promote China's manned space technology to a higher level, to promote the development of national scientific and technological progress and innovation to enhance the comprehensive national strength, enhance national prestige make an important contribution.

In accordance with the project, launched in 2011 in China Temple One goal of aircraft and spacecraft Shenzhou 8, the implementation of the first unmanned spacecraft rendezvous and docking test.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 10/28/2010 01:34 AM
Don't know if this has been posted before, but here is globalsecurity's analysis and take on the future of China's manned space program. There is also some speculative info on the planned CZ-X(8?) super-heavy booster:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/world/china/cz-x.htm

"In this early phase of the design studies that will end in sub-scale vehicle configuration, dynamic, structural testing the actual settled upon design and the required payload configuration, payload capacity have not been fully resolved pending the results of the preliminary trade off design studies."

Might as well be written in Chinese.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: sdsds on 10/28/2010 02:19 AM
These reports seem to reflect that the leaders of this effort have good confidence in the 2011 dates for launching Tiangong-1 and Shenzhou-8.  Presumably they will attempt the first rendezvous, approach and docking in 2011 as well?  Has there been any indication of the extent to which these vehicles will be autonomous, as opposed to being remotely controlled from the ground?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: input~2 on 10/28/2010 02:52 PM
Beidou-1A, launched on October 30, 2000 had apparently reached its end   of life and started drifting on orbit in September 2010. It has been   deorbited to a graveyard orbit on October 25.

Edit on May 18, 2011:
Beidou-1A was actually brought down back to the GEO orbit in late November 2010 and has been stabilized around 58.75°E since then.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 10/28/2010 05:23 PM
http://luna-ci.com/2010/chinas-lead-lunar-scientist-speaks-on-chinas-and-the-moons-status/

Chinese officially GET it.

Quote
Ziyuan goes on to detail the economic thinking:

“There are unimaginable abundant natural resources on the moon, such as rare earths, or uranium and titanium ores. The titanium ore reserve on the moon is the same size as the whole of China.

Although we are not able to exploit these resources due to the extremely high cost and technological limitations, as scientists, we have the responsibility to prove the existence of these resources and inform the people.

The moon has a very huge energy reserve. Japanese scientists recently came up with a design idea that if humanity could build a moon belt for solar power generation and transmitting energy back to the earth, human energy needs could be permanently satisfied.” -Ouyang Ziyuan
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: hop on 10/28/2010 09:13 PM
Chinese officially GET it.
By "it" you mean "pie in the sky". Remember all the wonderful things the Soviets were going to do with Buran...

The same or similar material was posted in another thread: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=20342.msg648288#msg648288

Quote
“There are unimaginable abundant natural resources on the moon, such as rare earths, or uranium and titanium ores. The titanium ore reserve on the moon is the same size as the whole of China.
As I mentioned in the other thread, titanium is a complete red herring.
Quote
The moon has a very huge energy reserve. Japanese scientists recently came up with a design idea that if humanity could build a moon belt for solar power generation and transmitting energy back to the earth, human energy needs could be permanently satisfied.” -Ouyang Ziyuan
This seems rather confused. The moon doesn't have much to do with SBSP, although it could be a source of raw materials.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 10/29/2010 01:32 AM
Chinese officially GET it.
By "it" you mean "pie in the sky".

Yes, absolutely. Everyone knows its pie in the sky, in 2010. This is not the point.

The point is, that we finally have a significant force with spacefaring capabilities talking about wider space development than earth observation and comsats.

For the first time ever i have heard official intent expressed to figure out whether space resources can be put into economic use or not.

Note, nobody is claiming that they can at this point, obviously. Just that the intent is there to figure it out.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 10/29/2010 05:55 PM
And now for some Indian perspective on the Chinese space program.

http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report_china-on-path-to-militarise-space-leaving-us-behind_1459658
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: manboy on 11/06/2010 06:44 PM
And now for some Indian perspective on the Chinese space program.

http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report_china-on-path-to-militarise-space-leaving-us-behind_1459658
"China’s space program is controlled by the PLA, which is steadily gaining experience in remote communication and measurement, missile technology, and antisatellite warfare through missions like Chang’e 2."
Is this a real concern?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: sdsds on 11/06/2010 07:37 PM
And now for some Indian perspective on the Chinese space program.

http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report_china-on-path-to-militarise-space-leaving-us-behind_1459658
"China’s space program is controlled by the PLA, which is steadily gaining experience in remote communication and measurement, missile technology, and antisatellite warfare through missions like Chang’e 2."
Is this a real concern?

Is there any other nation where the army runs the human spaceflight agency?  Why hasn't China joined the family of nations with civilian agencies for human spaceflight?  Would it somehow be costly for them to do so?  Or have they simply not heard the message that their militarization of space could be an obstacle for potential international partnerships?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: manboy on 11/06/2010 07:47 PM
And now for some Indian perspective on the Chinese space program.

http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report_china-on-path-to-militarise-space-leaving-us-behind_1459658
"China’s space program is controlled by the PLA, which is steadily gaining experience in remote communication and measurement, missile technology, and antisatellite warfare through missions like Chang’e 2."
Is this a real concern?

Is there any other nation where the army runs the human spaceflight agency?  Why hasn't China joined the family of nations with civilian agencies for human spaceflight?  Would it somehow be costly for them to do so?  Or have they simply not heard the message that their militarization of space could be an obstacle for potential international partnerships?
No what I mean is does a lunar probe raise concerns about the militarization of space or is the reporter just trying to play up the issue (what does a lunar probe have to do with missile technology and anti-satelite warefare)?

Both Russia and the USA have used their space programs for military purposes in the past. Off the top of my head Russia had their military spacestations and the US used the Shuttle to launch DoD payloads (not to mention the USAF had a major influence on it's design).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: hop on 11/06/2010 08:38 PM
Is there any other nation where the army runs the human spaceflight agency?
The Soviet program was similar, and much of this carried on into the Russian era.
Quote
  Why hasn't China joined the family of nations with civilian agencies for human spaceflight?  Would it somehow be costly for them to do so?  Or have they simply not heard the message that their militarization of space could be an obstacle for potential international partnerships?
Question appears to be based on bad assumptions. The PLA doesn't have the same role that military forces in western countries have. It's the military proper (equivalent to western countries military), but it's also the defense industry, the aerospace industry, a major player in many totally unrelated industries, and one of the most powerful political institutions.

If the DOD ran the US HSF program, it would be a military program with some concrete military objective. The PLA running the Chinese HSF program does not imply the same thing. I'm not saying the Chinese model is good, but you need to understand the actual role of the PLA to reach accurate conclusions about what it's role signifies.

Given the strategic uselessness of HSF, it's a fair bet the Chinese HSF program is not military in any practical sense.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: sdsds on 11/06/2010 09:28 PM
Why hasn't China joined the family of nations with civilian agencies for human spaceflight?  Would it somehow be costly for them to do so?  Or have they simply not heard the message that their militarization of space could be an obstacle for potential international partnerships?

Question appears to be based on bad assumptions. The PLA doesn't have the same role that military forces in western countries have. It's the military proper (equivalent to western countries military), but it's also the defense industry, the aerospace industry, a major player in many totally unrelated industries, and one of the most powerful political institutions.

Good, albeit sobering, points.  Thanks for explaining them!

In the past, plenty of countries have blurred the distinction between their military and their government.  But whether or not the Chinese program is military in any practical sense, having the PLA involved erects barriers to international cooperation.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: HappyMartian on 11/07/2010 07:46 AM
Why hasn't China joined the family of nations with civilian agencies for human spaceflight?  Would it somehow be costly for them to do so?  Or have they simply not heard the message that their militarization of space could be an obstacle for potential international partnerships?

Question appears to be based on bad assumptions. The PLA doesn't have the same role that military forces in western countries have. It's the military proper (equivalent to western countries military), but it's also the defense industry, the aerospace industry, a major player in many totally unrelated industries, and one of the most powerful political institutions.

Good, albeit sobering, points.  Thanks for explaining them!

In the past, plenty of countries have blurred the distinction between their military and their government.  But whether or not the Chinese program is military in any practical sense, having the PLA involved erects barriers to international cooperation.

Having "the PLA involved erects barriers to international cooperation" only if we and the PLA are not creative in figuring out how to resolve the issues that go along with that military involvement.

Cheers!
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: spacex on 11/08/2010 11:38 PM
Interesting article in AW

Current Long March Rockets To Keep Flying
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=space&id=news/asd/2010/11/08/03.xml&headline=Current%20Long%20March%20Rockets%20To%20Keep%20Flying
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 01/25/2011 12:41 PM
An interesting video (in russian) about China space (with a small interview with our friend Igor Lissov:))...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6YkdRFOJ0c
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: spacex on 01/26/2011 04:32 PM
An interesting video (in russian) about China space (with a small interview with our friend Igor Lissov:))...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6YkdRFOJ0c

Nice video. Well done to Igor Lissov. It would have been great if there was a translation provided in English. Perhaps Russian speakers can help with that.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 03/02/2011 08:19 PM
From Xinhua, China expects to launch fifth lunar probe Chang'e-5 in 2017 (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-03/02/c_13758065.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 03/03/2011 03:13 PM
From Xinhua, China to launch first space lab by 2016 (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/sci/2011-03/03/c_13759584.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 03/03/2011 03:18 PM
From Xinhua, World's largest rocket production base takes shape in north China (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/sci/2011-03/03/c_13759813.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 04/08/2011 09:02 PM
According to the military channel of Xinhua, China will soon announce the China's manned space logo, the name of the Chinese cargo ship, the Chinese manned space station as a whole name and logo, China's manned space station core module and two laboratory modules and its name.

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 04/13/2011 06:33 PM
From Xinhua, China's largest rocket, satellite launch base plans tourism boost (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-04/13/c_13827099.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 04/15/2011 06:50 PM
From Xinhua, Argentine expert praises China's space program (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-04/15/c_13830084.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: baldusi on 04/15/2011 10:38 PM
From Xinhua, Argentine expert praises China's space program (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-04/15/c_13830084.htm).
Argentinians are experts in the results of no planning and constant changes in direction. In any case, it's just a paragraph of a whole interview. Nobody can say that the Chinese program haven't been successful, nor that it has excellent and consistent planning.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 04/26/2011 08:43 AM
From Xinhua, Countdown begins for China's space station program (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-04/26/c_13846112.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Joris on 04/26/2011 09:52 AM
From Xinhua, Countdown begins for China's space station program (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-04/26/c_13846112.htm).

MIR rises again  ;)

The cargo resupply ship also looks like the shenzhou version of the Progress M2: http://astronautix.com/craft/proessm2.htm
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 04/26/2011 10:00 AM
From Xinhua, Countdown begins for China's space station program (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-04/26/c_13846112.htm).

MIR rises again  ;)

The cargo resupply ship also looks like the shenzhou version of the Progress M2: http://astronautix.com/craft/proessm2.htm


Interesting, the total mass, maximum cargo, layout and the usage of Progress M2 seems to be right on mark with the specifications of the future Chinese cargo ship I saw on Chinese aerospace forums. Technology transfer? ::)

And don't forget that Tian Gong-1 (TG-1), the first "Chinese space station" due for launch later this year, is essentially a prototype of the cargo craft. Which makes the plot even more suspicious... ;)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Joris on 04/26/2011 12:23 PM

Interesting, the total mass, maximum cargo, layout and the usage of Progress M2 seems to be right on mark with the specifications of the future Chinese cargo ship I saw on Chinese aerospace forums. Technology transfer? ::)

And don't forget that Tian Gong-1 (TG-1), the first "Chinese space station" due for launch later this year, is essentially a prototype of the cargo craft. Which makes the plot even more suspicious... ;)

They seem to do pretty much the exact same thing as the Russians indeed.  ;D
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Rocket Science on 04/26/2011 12:44 PM
Well... they've got the cash....

http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/2011/04/25/am-imf-report-china-will-be-the-largest-economy-by-2016/?refid=0
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phillip Clark on 04/26/2011 04:06 PM
From Xinhua, Countdown begins for China's space station program (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-04/26/c_13846112.htm).

The mass of ~60 tonnes clearly excludes the piloted Shenzhou and the Tiangong-derived cargo freighter.  They could bring the total mass up to around 75-80 tonnes when both are docked.

I would have thought that between the Tiangong "mini laboratories" and this modular station, we will see a mission rather like Salyuts 6/7 using a single 22 tonnes core module and the Tiangong cargo freighter taking on the role of the Soviet Progress or even TKS spacecraft.

We live in interesting times!!!
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: aquanaut99 on 04/27/2011 11:27 AM
Interesting article in AW

Current Long March Rockets To Keep Flying
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=space&id=news/asd/2010/11/08/03.xml&headline=Current%20Long%20March%20Rockets%20To%20Keep%20Flying

This is somewhat confusing.

I was under the impression that all future Shenzhou missions would be launched using the new CZ-2F/H launcher. The CZ-2F/H is a major redesign of the CZ-2F, using a Kerolox first stage instead of hypergolics, with a 3.35m core mpowered by 2 YF-100s and four 2.25m strap-ons with 1 YF-100 each.

http://www.sinodefence.com/space/launcher/changzheng2.asp

Supposedly, the CZ-2F/H is required because the final production version of the Shenzhou spacecraft, which will first fly on SZ-8, is somewhat heavier than the prototypes launched until now. The CZ-2F/H is to have a payload capacity of 12.5 mT to LEO, compared to the 8mT of the hypergolic CZ-2F (which was just barely enough for the original Shenzhous).

The requirement to switch over to a new rocket is probably one of the main reason for the "gap" between Shenzhous 7 and 8.

How does this fit together?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: hektor on 04/27/2011 11:29 AM
What would be the orbital inclination ?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phillip Clark on 04/27/2011 06:31 PM
What would be the orbital inclination ?

Why change from ~42 deg?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: umandelbaum on 04/28/2011 05:21 PM
Hello everyone. I am new to the forum and am researching the Chinese space program.

I am trying to find data for a report about the funding of the CNSA to compare to NASA funding.

NASA puts their budgets right on their website, making them really easy to find. The CNSA, on the other hand, doesn't have budget numbers on their English site, and I cannot find their budgets even using an online translator to read the Chinese site.

Does anyone know if the numbers are available anywhere? I don't know much about the Chinese government, but do they release a 'federal' level budget at all? If so, would that budget have the funding levels for the CNSA?

Thank you in advance for any help you can provide!
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: nickyp on 04/29/2011 06:00 PM
the Chinese Space Program is very secretive.  I'd be surprised if anyone here knew the budget! :)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phillip Clark on 04/29/2011 06:13 PM
the Chinese Space Program is very secretive.  I'd be surprised if anyone here knew the budget! :)

I am not sure whether it is correct to say that the Chinese space programme is more secretive than - for example - the US programme is.   Both carefully guard details of their military missions, but both are open about their primarily civil programmes.

As for budgets, that is something which the Chinese rarely discuss.   You may get a few isolated quotes here and there about specific missions, but nothing for the overall programme.

Umandelbaum, are you doing a study for a specific client?   Or maybe you cannot say!
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: aquanaut99 on 04/29/2011 08:12 PM
the Chinese Space Program is very secretive.  I'd be surprised if anyone here knew the budget! :)

The Chinese Space Program is nowhere near as secretive as the Soviet one was.

In fact, I think that the Chinese are remarkably open about their manned spaceflight program.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: umandelbaum on 04/30/2011 01:31 AM

I am not sure whether it is correct to say that the Chinese space programme is more secretive than - for example - the US programme is.   Both carefully guard details of their military missions, but both are open about their primarily civil programmes.

As for budgets, that is something which the Chinese rarely discuss.   You may get a few isolated quotes here and there about specific missions, but nothing for the overall programme.

Umandelbaum, are you doing a study for a specific client?   Or maybe you cannot say!

I'm not doing any secretive research, I'm just a simple grad student studying Space Ops Management.

So far I would agree that China is very open about what its civil manned space program is doing, and like the US is very secretive about their military space program (with good reason). But its depressing that their budget numbers are secret for the civilian program. I guess that without elections to hold them accountable, the CNSA budget must be nearly unlimited as long as they produce results - similar to how much money NASA got back during the Apollo program.

Its really bad for me personally though that the Chinese budgets are so secret - I'm already behind on my report, and now its clear that half the data I need just doesn't exist!  :(
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: hop on 04/30/2011 02:15 AM
I guess that without elections to hold them accountable, the CNSA budget must be nearly unlimited as long as they produce results - similar to how much money NASA got back during the Apollo program.
I wouldn't assume that. My impression is that slow pace of the manned to date has been due to relatively low budgets. I certainly don't have any numbers to back this up, but it seems like the best explanation of the low flight rate so far.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: grdja on 04/30/2011 04:05 PM
If those economic projections are true, after Chine outgrows USA economy it could afford quite a robust space program.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Cog_in_the_machine on 04/30/2011 06:03 PM
If those economic projections are true, after Chine outgrows USA economy it could afford quite a robust space program.

It can already afford a "robust space program", whatever that means. The US can also afford it. The question is, who's willing to pay for a "robust space program"? Money talks and it speaks volumes about which things are priorities for a given government.

For those wondering about the Chinese space budget, according to The Space Report (http://www.thespacereport.org/resources/government/intl_budgets.php), current estimates put it at 2.24 billion.

You might note that the US government spends 64.63 billion, which I assume is both DoD and civilian space program budgets combined.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 05/08/2011 10:10 AM
From Xinhua, Venezuela parliament authorizes new satellite program with China (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/sci/2011-05/06/c_13861347.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: sdsds on 05/08/2011 06:19 PM
I would agree that China is very open about what its civil manned space program is doing

Could you expand on that a bit?  Because as best I can determine there is no civil manned space program in China.  None.  Zero.

You may perhaps be thinking of the China Manned Space Engineering Office (CMSEO).  CMSEO is a special department within the General Armaments Department of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA).

The PLA is not a civilian organization.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: hop on 05/08/2011 06:33 PM
Could you expand on that a bit?  Because as best I can determine there is no civil manned space program in China.  None.  Zero.

You may perhaps be thinking of the China Manned Space Engineering Office (CMSEO).  CMSEO is a special department within the General Armaments Department of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA).

The PLA is not a civilian organization.
While this is *technically* true, there is no evidence their manned program serves any military purpose. Unlike western countries, the PLA runs a lot of stuff that is not directly related to defense. The distinction between "civil" and "military" is much less well defined... the PLA is an enormously powerful political and commercial organization.

You've made this mistake before: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=7058.msg656968#msg656968
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: sdsds on 05/09/2011 12:37 AM
CMSEO is a special department within the General Armaments Department of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA).

The PLA is not a civilian organization.
While this is *technically* true

Thanks for that acknowledgement!

Quote
the PLA runs a lot of stuff that is not directly related to defense. The distinction between "civil" and "military" is much less well defined...

We are agreed on this too.  It is a blended civil/military program operated by the Army.

Quote
You've made this mistake before: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=7058.msg656968#msg656968

And continue to make it, because technically it is not a mistake.  In fact politically it is a crucially important fact.  We almost made the same mistake in the United States and I for one am quite pleased with the wisdom of those who established NASA as a purely civilian organization.

China would do well to use NASA model, as otherwise most of the world (except certain China apologists) will rightly condemn them for unneeded militarization of the human expansion into space.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Rocket Science on 05/09/2011 12:52 AM
The NASA model? Yes, a civilian agency that flew military pilots on military boosters until Apollo. You might mean the recent Shuttle era. Still... one who has to think hard how many missions did not have a military pilot as commander. We put a U.S. flag on the Moon, not a U.N. one. The lines blur sometimes...
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: hop on 05/09/2011 02:53 AM
And continue to make it, because technically it is not a mistake.  In fact politically it is a crucially important fact.
The mistake is the (or misdirection, since you claim to understand the difference) implication that "run by the PLA" means the same thing as "military program" does in the west; It doesn't. The plastic lawn chairs you bought at wal-mart might be made in a PLA owned factory, but that doesn't make your patio a Chinese military program (these days, it's more likely they are made in a former PLA factor that now just happens to be owned by a retired general...)
Quote
We almost made the same mistake in the United States and I for one am quite pleased with the wisdom of those who established NASA as a purely civilian organization.
I'm not saying anything about desirability of the Chinese system. I'm just saying that if you are going to call it a military program, you should acknowledge that it doesn't mean the same thing it would in the west.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Rocket Science on 05/09/2011 01:51 PM
U.S.-China Collboration ban...

http://blogs.forbes.com/williampentland/2011/05/07/congress-bans-scientific-collaboration-with-china-cites-high-espionage-risks/
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: input~2 on 05/18/2011 01:06 PM
A promo video in English about Beidou/Compass navigation constellation
(needs .flv player)
http://www.beidou.gov.cn/video/2010/12/22/20101222f4a9e99d91204f719e40cc12cf00645e.flv
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: limen4 on 05/22/2011 05:07 PM
Updated launch date estimations for next CAS scientific satellites (from 9ifly and Science 20 May 2011: Vol. 332 no. 6032 p. 904)

HXMT         2014
Sjijian-10         Early 2015
Kua Fu         Mid 2015
Dark Matter Satellite   Late 2015
Quantum Science Satellite   2016
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: input~2 on 05/28/2011 04:13 PM
Concerning the Compass constellation, in a spring 2010 presentation by CAST, the intermediate regional system was described as achieved via 5 GEO + 3 IGSO + 4 MEO.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 06/08/2011 02:32 PM
From Xinhua, Building harmonious outer space to achieve inclusive development: Chinese diplomat (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-06/06/c_13913172.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: JazzFan on 06/09/2011 11:12 AM
From Xinhua, Building harmonious outer space to achieve inclusive development: Chinese diplomat (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-06/06/c_13913172.htm).

This would have been better if it had been written before China had tested an anti satellite weapon.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: baldusi on 06/09/2011 02:59 PM
From Xinhua, Building harmonious outer space to achieve inclusive development: Chinese diplomat (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-06/06/c_13913172.htm).

This would have been better if it had been written before China had tested an anti satellite weapon.

Si vis pacem, para bellum

The US also demonstrated that capability. The Chinese probably want to sing a an accord of equals. No party will respect it if it does gives them a clear advantage anyways. And I include everybody.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: limen4 on 06/10/2011 12:54 PM
China suggests satellite communication project to Belarus
 (http://news.belta.by/en/news/president?id=635438&utm_source=Belta&utm_medium=twitter).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: simonbp on 06/12/2011 11:58 PM
The US also demonstrated that capability. The Chinese probably want to sing a an accord of equals. No party will respect it if it does gives them a clear advantage anyways. And I include everybody.

But the way in which the US demonstrated it was designed in such a way that the debris did not remain in orbit. The Chinese demonstration did throw a considerable amount of debris over LEO. It's one thing to demonstrate a weapons system, and quite another to endanger everyone else's spacecraft.

And it's actions like that that (as well as ongoing industrial espionage and lack of any respect for foreign intellectual property) keep the other spacefaring nations from trusting China.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: sdsds on 06/13/2011 02:23 AM
Quote
The risk of militarization of outer space require us to stipulate new space laws [...], Huang said.

This viewpoint is fascinating.  Of course it may suffer in translation, but it appears to be a subtle accusation that someone is causing a "risk of militarization."  I do not think the United States, ESA countries, and Russia perceive any such risk, unless this is a reference to North Korea or Iran?

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: baldusi on 06/13/2011 11:49 AM
The US also demonstrated that capability. The Chinese probably want to sing a an accord of equals. No party will respect it if it does gives them a clear advantage anyways. And I include everybody.

But the way in which the US demonstrated it was designed in such a way that the debris did not remain in orbit. The Chinese demonstration did throw a considerable amount of debris over LEO. It's one thing to demonstrate a weapons system, and quite another to endanger everyone else's spacecraft.

And it's actions like that that (as well as ongoing industrial espionage and lack of any respect for foreign intellectual property) keep the other spacefaring nations from trusting China.

No nation ever respected any other's nation right if it's against its "national interests". Some even went as far as going against UN resolutions. And you can't fault a country for not playing by the same rules, proposed by a group that holds the upper hand if you enter that game. This is important to understand, not even EC nor USA have entered games where they stand to lose. And the rest of the world usually considers your IP system totally broken. That's why all the agreements are made behind the scene and is a scandal each time the negotiations and pressures are leaked.
Not recognizing the Chinese advancements is ridiculous. You forbade Chinese journalists from watching a launch, but then send them most of your high tech parts for their regional jet?
I'm not really pro Chinese. But they do get my respect and make me think with their actions. And I really believe that since the US usually have a single way of thinking, I try a different view. If here all were for a Chinese cooperation I would probably bring up some of the contingencies and disadvantages.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phillip Clark on 06/13/2011 02:43 PM
I have recently been reading the book "The Dead Hand: The Untold Story of the Cold War Arms Race and Its Dangerous Legacy" by David Hoffman, and it is fascinating - and scarey! - how both the Soviet Union and the United States totally misconstrued the intentions of the other side, especially concerning the genuine reduction of nuclear weapons.

I believe that the United States will have similar misunderstandings with China, except that this time it will be China with the stronger economy.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: edkyle99 on 06/13/2011 09:57 PM
I believe that the United States will have similar misunderstandings with China, except that this time it will be China with the stronger economy.

Let's hope it won't go down the bad path.  When China and the U.S. fought head on in Korea nearly six decades ago, it was a bloody stalemated disaster all around.  It didn't matter much that one side was more powerful than the other back then, because both sides were strong-willed with no intention of backing down.

Here's hoping for peace and not misunderstanding!

 - Ed Kyle
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Patchouli on 06/14/2011 02:56 AM
I have recently been reading the book "The Dead Hand: The Untold Story of the Cold War Arms Race and Its Dangerous Legacy" by David Hoffman, and it is fascinating - and scarey! - how both the Soviet Union and the United States totally misconstrued the intentions of the other side, especially concerning the genuine reduction of nuclear weapons.

I believe that the United States will have similar misunderstandings with China, except that this time it will be China with the stronger economy.

I disagree with China being the stronger economy their economy grew fast and is based on a lot of shaky assets.
There real value of the economy is likely much less then what the so called experts claim.
I expect a repeat of the economic collapse that happened in Japan during the 90s to occur in China only on a much larger scale.

But it could very well be a repeat of the US vs the USSR though the PRC does have more internal corruption then the USSR did at it's peak.

Hopefully the Chinese will reform or overthrow their government before things end up like that.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: big_gazza on 06/14/2011 10:07 AM

Hopefully the Chinese will reform or overthrow their government before things end up like that.

Stop the China-bashing please.  China's economic ascendancy is here to stay, so you better get used to it and also learn to come to terms with the US decline.  Unlike the US, China's economy is growing as a result of intrinsic growth and good old fashioned mercantilism, not finanacial manipulation and credit-fuelled binges.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: baldusi on 06/14/2011 03:13 PM
Please, try to keep it to the Chinese space program. You don't want to provoke an economist into discussing Chines and Us growth, fundamentals and institutional structures.  :P
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: D_Dom on 06/14/2011 08:00 PM
On the contrary, I would enjoy that discussion very much. Not within this thread however.
China is an interesting player in this game, I watch their progress and wonder if the next person to walk on the moon will be Chinese.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 06/28/2011 09:25 PM
From Xinhua, "Space lotus" bloom in wetland park, China's Chongqing (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/photo/2011-06/28/c_13953005.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phillip Clark on 06/29/2011 08:12 PM
Please, try to keep it to the Chinese space program. You don't want to provoke an economist into discussing Chines and Us growth, fundamentals and institutional structures.  :P

Apologies for taking this off-topic.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Jim on 07/07/2011 12:30 PM

Stop the China-bashing please.  China's economic ascendancy is here to stay,

Not true, they are going to have issues too.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Diagoras on 07/09/2011 04:10 AM

Stop the China-bashing please.  China's economic ascendancy is here to stay,

Not true, they are going to have issues too.

As a native Hong Konger, I agree with this absolutely. The American ability to up-play rival nation's strengths while downplaying their own has always amazed me. See: Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, Japan, and now China.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 07/23/2011 01:53 PM
According to CMSE site (http://www.cmse.gov.cn/), Chinese taikonauts have recently participated on a manned space program land emergency search and rescue drill.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 08/10/2011 05:54 PM
From Xinhua, China, Bolivia launch telecom satellite project (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-08/10/c_131041506.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 09/29/2011 08:15 AM
From Xinhua, Civilians given chance to reach for the stars (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/sci/2011-09/29/c_131166459.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 09/30/2011 08:25 AM
From Xinhua, Could you send up a couple of pizzas? (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/sci/2011-09/30/c_131169333.htm); an article about the future cargo vehicle.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phillip Clark on 09/30/2011 04:00 PM
From Xinhua, Could you send up a couple of pizzas? (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/sci/2011-09/30/c_131169333.htm); an article about the future cargo vehicle.

Maybe Kentucky Fried Rat?   (Anyone seriously think it's chicken?)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 10/25/2011 08:45 PM
From People's Daily, Does China's space program threaten US? (http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90780/7626300.html).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: JohnFornaro on 10/26/2011 01:15 PM
Personally, I'm glad they're making headway in building their station.  Note that they've chosen to build it in twenty ton chunks, which is a sound starting basis, I'd say.  I wish them nothing but good luck in those efforts.

But still:

Quote from: the article just above
Why are many Americans so sensitive to China's space achievements?

Because the Chinese government is attacking our country on many fronts.  They are not friendly to our government.  They are not even friendly to their own laureat.   To me, their lament, why are Americans so sensitive, is similar to the lament expressed by many Amerikan pols:  Why do the Islamic fundamentalists hate us?  Neither of these questions evinces an understanding by either government of the consequences of their respective words and actions.

Heck, while I was reading the article, the internets connection kept flashing, and IE reported brief, repeating access to some site of theirs.  What business of mine could they possibly be monitoring?

Quote
The achievement of China's manned space program will surely be the common wealth of mankind.

Should their government "fade away" as intended by the designers of their political system, I'm sure that time will come.  As it is, they hold onto their wealth as tightly as our hedge fund managers hold onto theirs, so I'd say there won't be all that much commonwealth resulting from their activities.  As the I Ching would suggest, there is no blame in this obvious strategy, by my take, all else being equal. 

All else being equal implying peaceful intent.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: powerplay2009 on 10/26/2011 01:56 PM
JohnFornaro's mindset is such a typical mindset for some American. It seems there is no need for mutual-understanding. If you don't follow our order, you are our enemy. "Either with us or against us"--US president George W. Bush.

First, how is the Chinese government attacking the US govenment? Why should the Chinese government be friendly to the US government, at the same time, the US government can do whatever they want to do to any other governments, even UK?

Just one single example, the US warships sail nearby the Chinese land, 100 miles away every month.  If the Chinese navy does that, what do we think?

American or American government need to treat other countries as an equal counterpart. In US, if a person kills a dog, he will be jailed or on the news for a long period of time.  See how they treat Iraq people? several bombs a day, hundred people a day? any sentiment in US? None of our business--we need to withdraw our troops. Why such bad things happen in Iraq or how we can help? Nobody cares or people still believe Sadam Hussain is linked with 9/11 such that they deserve this. Now we just want to withdraw and get out of the hell.

Anyway, the US government still has many advanced weapons in stock. And they are building more advanced ones. 

However, I believe coorporation is a must for deep space exploration.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: JohnFornaro on 10/28/2011 01:00 PM
Quote from: PowerPlay
JohnFornaro's mindset is such a typical mindset for some American. It seems there is no need for mutual-understanding. If you don't follow our order, you are our enemy.

I have no idea why the State Department never gave me a diplomatic position.  Other than calling them like I see them, I'm very diplomatic in that I use my only language carefully.

I said they are not friendly to our government.  PowerPlay jumps to an illogically broad conclusion based on an intentional misguided conclusion that therefore I consider China an enemy, and that I follow Bush's generally juvenile argument of "for us or agin us".  As to how are they attacking us, apparently the PP is not aware of current US reporting of Chinese hacking of our commerce and military, honey laundering, and so forth.  As a matter of fact, I have experienced similar hacking from them, as witnessed by my personal web statistics.  I can't imagine why, but their fear of their own laureate suggests a great insecurity in their halls of government.

As to our navy sailing so close to their shores, the geographic nature of the international boundary between Taiwan and mainland China is a well known issue, and is well understood by all parties involved.  If there are incidents along the rest of the Chinese shore, I'm not aware of them.

Quote
American or American government need to treat other countries as an equal counterpart.

Here, of course, I have nothing but agreement.  PP doesn't see the similarity between our politicians "innocently" wondering at the attitude of the Islamic nations, and the Chinese "innocent" wondering at our attitude.

As to cooperation in general, my posting history readily reveals my insistance in adopting this strategy in our domestic HSF efforts, and is readily extended to our international efforts as well.

Regarding the title of the People's Daily article, "Does China's space program threaten US?", it should be readily apparent that all space programs everywhere, on this planet at least, have a dual use aspect, and that in general, ordinary people feel "threatened" to a greater or lesser extent by this or that country's use of military assets.  As a random example, I feel more threatened by NK, than, say, Lichtenstein.

Nevertheless, I wish the Chinese nothing but success in their space efforts.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 11/10/2011 08:31 PM
From Xinhua, Bolivia expects huge benefits from Chinese-built satellite (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-11/10/c_131239090.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 12/06/2011 09:25 PM
From Xinhua, China to launch communications satellite for Turkmenistan (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2011-12/06/c_131291802.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 12/27/2011 09:26 AM
In a press conference held today by the State Council, it was announced that the Compass satellite navigation system is now operational across the Chinese territory and parts of the Asia-Pacific region (specifically 84 - 160 deg. East, 55 North - 55 deg. South). The current precision of the system is as follows:

Position: Within 25 meters (will improve to about 10 meters once the next six satellites are put into service next year)
Altitude: Within 30 meters
Velocity: 0.4 m/s
Time: 50 nanoseconds

Also, a draft of the Compass system's Interface Control Document (ICD) was also released (although it is currently incomplete, e.g. the section on the structure of the signals is missing).

Links:

http://www.beidou.gov.cn/2011/12/27/201112279dca3651777346079bd029484471342b.html (http://www.beidou.gov.cn/2011/12/27/201112279dca3651777346079bd029484471342b.html)

http://www.beidou.gov.cn/2011/12/27/201112278022f9561e0341a1acbc7f564a3162c9.html (http://www.beidou.gov.cn/2011/12/27/201112278022f9561e0341a1acbc7f564a3162c9.html)

http://www.beidou.gov.cn/2011/12/27/20111227daed4f6423e54b5f9ed0d085f972fc20.html (http://www.beidou.gov.cn/2011/12/27/20111227daed4f6423e54b5f9ed0d085f972fc20.html)

http://www.beidou.gov.cn/2011/12/27/2011122706d5aff9ecf9403089dba07f10415c61.html (http://www.beidou.gov.cn/2011/12/27/2011122706d5aff9ecf9403089dba07f10415c61.html)

News report (in Chinese) (http://video.sina.com.cn/p/news/c/v/2011-12-27/105061624307.html)

The ICD draft (in English) (http://www.beidou.gov.cn/attach/2011/12/27/201112273f3be6124f7d4c7bac428a36cc1d1363.pdf)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: baldusi on 12/27/2011 02:42 PM
If they hadn't relied so much on GSO we would have great Compass service here, too. We are on the antipodes.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 01/22/2012 05:27 PM
From Xinhua, Failure of mission hits Mars research (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/sci/2012-01/20/c_131370239.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 01/23/2012 09:00 PM
Happy New (Dragon) Year to our Chinese friends!
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 02/03/2012 01:01 PM
From Xinhua, Space-tracking ship Yuanwang VI concludes trip (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2012-02/03/c_131389918.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: input~2 on 02/04/2012 04:17 PM
Decommissioned "Yuanwang I" space tracking ship to serve as museum (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/photo/2011-11/27/c_131272941.htm)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 03/03/2012 05:21 PM
From Xinhua, China to launch 12 meteorological satellites before 2020: official (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2012-03/03/c_131443950.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 03/05/2012 09:19 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GMYO-Jfw1U&feature=g-all&context=G23dea00FAAAAAAAABAA
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: HappyMartian on 03/11/2012 12:59 PM
John, elsewhere on this website I've noted that the Chinese workforce will start shrinking perhaps as early as early as 2013. Now there is a prediction it will start declining in 2012.

"'With China's working-age population set to decline steadily from 2012 onward due to retirement, the notion that a minimum of 8 percent GDP growth is necessary to sustain full employment and preserve social stability is now outdated,' analysts at Nomura said in a note to clients."

From: China sacrifices growth to satiate inflation dragon At: http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/03/11/uk-china-economy-inflation-idUKBRE82A02Z20120311

And also John, I doubt you would enjoy working for the State Department.

Cheers!
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Damon Hill on 03/11/2012 09:40 PM
AW&ST reports China is working on a very large F-1 class kero/lox engine, probably using staged combustion with two nozzles and a single large turbopump; similar to the Russian RD-180 but about twice as powerful.  A single nozzle engine will be the first development.

Large solid fuel boosters are also being considered.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/awst/2012/03/12/AW_03_12_2012_p32-433971.xml&headline=China Sets Plan For Moon Rocket Engine&channel=awst
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: sdsds on 03/12/2012 04:24 AM
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=awst&id=news/awst/2012/03/12/AW_03_12_2012_p32-433971.xml&headline=China%20Sets%20Plan%20For%20Moon%20Rocket%20Engine worked for me.  (Had trouble with the link given above.)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: go4mars on 03/14/2012 03:21 PM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/9141416/Russia-to-finally-send-man-to-the-Moon.html

How likely is it that Russia will do this largely with Chinese money in a joint venture?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: HappyMartian on 03/17/2012 04:42 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/9141416/Russia-to-finally-send-man-to-the-Moon.html

How likely is it that Russia will do this largely with Chinese money in a joint venture?

It is much more likely that we will all go to the Moon together.

"Marc Garneau, a former astronaut and president of the Canadian Space Agency and currently a Liberal MP in Quebec, said that the growth of the space program is politically important for China."

And, "He added that given the complexities of a space program, it makes sense for the U.S. and other countries to approach China’s development in a collaborative mood."

From: Chinese space program 'on the rise'  By Joseph Engelhardt, CBC News  Mar 16, 2012   At: http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2012/03/04/f-china-space-program.html 


Cheers!
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: HappyMartian on 03/18/2012 04:22 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/9141416/Russia-to-finally-send-man-to-the-Moon.html

How likely is it that Russia will do this largely with Chinese money in a joint venture?

BEIJING - China's aging population and the deteriorating natural environment will constrain economic growth, Ma Jiantang, head of the National Bureau of Statistics said Saturday.
From: Aging population will constrain economic growth
Updated: 2012-03-17 At: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2012-03/17/content_14855460.htm

Everyone has money worries. Money wise, most folks everywhere are likely to figure the ISS international cost sharing model makes good sense. If seventy or more countries share the costs, we could have a politically sustainable exploration program with regular human spaceflight missions to the Moon, NEOs, and Mars.

Cheers!
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: HappyMartian on 06/23/2012 01:21 PM
Europe-China Cooperation in Space  By Gongling Sun   June 20, 2012, Brussels
At:  http://swfound.org/media/84196/Gongling%20Sun%20CASC-Brussels%20%5BRepaired%5D.pdf

Gongling Sun is the "Chief Representative, European Office China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation"

See also: The Brussels Space Policy Round Table - The Ups and Downs of Euro-China Space Cooperation
At: http://swfound.org/events/2012/the-brussels-space-policy-round-table-the-ups-and-downs-of-euro-china-space-cooperation

Cheers!
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Suzy on 06/24/2012 05:43 AM
Language Log: Taikonaut (http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4034) - on the use (or misuse?) of the word.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 06/24/2012 06:30 AM
Language Log: Taikonaut (http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4034) - on the use (or misuse?) of the word.

I heard that the term "Taikonaut" was coined by one of the earliest Internet news sources for Chinese spaceflight, Chen Lan (who incidentally is on this very forum! (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=profile;u=12897))
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: bolun on 06/29/2012 02:04 PM
ESA–China collaboration takes Earth observation to new heights

29 June
 
2012http://www.esa.int/export/esaCP/SEMBLJ1VW3H_index_0.html
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 06/29/2012 04:44 PM
for those having access, Science today has a very good 7-page article on space science in the Chinese space program: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/336/6089/1630.summary
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: vulture4 on 06/30/2012 02:12 AM
New engine? For what vehicle? LM5 boosters?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phillip Clark on 06/30/2012 03:53 AM
New engine? For what vehicle? LM5 boosters?

The Chinese are doing studies for Saturn-5 class launchers.   The papers were posted on NASASpaceflight.com about a year ago.

Updated: the entry on July 15th last year by RyanCrierie on the thread "China to have new rockets" has the papers.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: EdT on 06/30/2012 07:17 AM
Engine tests for the CZ-5 series of launchers were conducted last year,  I think it will be ready by 2014 as mentioned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0slHxfwkEJY
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phillip Clark on 07/01/2012 09:33 AM
Language Log: Taikonaut (http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4034) - on the use (or misuse?) of the word.
I heard that the term "Taikonaut" was coined by one of the earliest Internet news sources for Chinese spaceflight, Chen Lan (who incidentally is on this very forum! (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=profile;u=12897))

"Taikonaut" is an internet invention which appears to have now reached almost an official status.

At the time of Shenzhou 5 the term "yuhangyuan" was being used as the Chinese equivalent of "astronaut" or "cosmonaut" but in recent years it sems to have faded away (apart from me continuing to use it!) with "taikonaut" now being used routinely on Chinese English-language television.

It would be interesting to know what word Chinese-language publications and statements use.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: aquanaut99 on 07/02/2012 12:38 PM
New engine? For what vehicle? LM5 boosters?

Would probably be for the notional Long March 9 (Atlas-V Phase-3B class) HLV which has been showing up here:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=8447.105
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: BUAA on 07/04/2012 03:17 PM
Language Log: Taikonaut (http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4034) - on the use (or misuse?) of the word.
I heard that the term "Taikonaut" was coined by one of the earliest Internet news sources for Chinese spaceflight, Chen Lan (who incidentally is on this very forum! (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=profile;u=12897))

"Taikonaut" is an internet invention which appears to have now reached almost an official status.

At the time of Shenzhou 5 the term "yuhangyuan" was being used as the Chinese equivalent of "astronaut" or "cosmonaut" but in recent years it sems to have faded away (apart from me continuing to use it!) with "taikonaut" now being used routinely on Chinese English-language television.

It would be interesting to know what word Chinese-language publications and statements use.

In official Chinese documents, the astronauts are referred to as "HangTianYuan". The term has been used since the late 1960s when China made its first unsuccessful attempt to send a man into orbit
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 07/05/2012 12:32 AM
In official Chinese documents, the astronauts are referred to as "HangTianYuan". The term has been used since the late 1960s when China made its first unsuccessful attempt to send a man into orbit

What unsuccessful attempt was this?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 07/05/2012 12:34 AM
In official Chinese documents, the astronauts are referred to as "HangTianYuan". The term has been used since the late 1960s when China made its first unsuccessful attempt to send a man into orbit

What unsuccessful attempt was this?

The Shuguang 1 (http://www.astronautix.com/craft/shuuang1.htm), although I believe it was beyond China's abilities then.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 07/05/2012 02:31 AM

What unsuccessful attempt was this?

The Shuguang 1 (http://www.astronautix.com/craft/shuuang1.htm), although I believe it was beyond China's abilities then.
[/quote]

Indeed, but I would not have called it a "launch attempt", rather an abandoned project, and it was abandoned in the 70s, not the 60s.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: byxiao on 07/05/2012 05:28 AM
New engine? For what vehicle? LM5 boosters?

Would probably be for the notional Long March 9 (Atlas-V Phase-3B class) HLV which has been showing up here:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=8447.105
I don't think they have any official model type yet, currently they are do some preparatory works, mathematical calculation, turbopump may be used here etc.
And that will be something after successful operation of  Chinese Space Station. means it will come decade later.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 07/06/2012 08:09 AM
Hmm......  ::)

http://www.dailynews.lk/2012/07/05/news01.asp (http://www.dailynews.lk/2012/07/05/news01.asp)

Quote
There is a possibility of Sri Lanka sending an astronaut into space in less than four years.

This historic task has been undertaken by the Sri Lankan company SupremeSAT and China’s state- owned biggest satellite manufacturing institution, Great Wall Corporation (CGWIC).

The agreement will be signed in Beijing where the Chinese company is based.

SupremeSAT Managing Director R M Manivannan said SupremeSAT has already written a new chapter in Sri Lankan history by becoming the first institution in Sri Lanka to own a satellite.

Only 44 countries own a satellite outright or in partnerships of three or fewer.“We have a co-branded satellite with the Chinese company in orbit from last month.

Our next step is the building of our own company satellite at the Great Wall Corporation facility. This would be ready in two years and then it would be the first Sri Lankan owned satellite," he said.

The total investment for this would be around US $ 300 million.

The first satellite Sputnik was built and launched by the Russians in 1957. There are over 900 satellites in operation today, of which 381 satellites are in Geostationary Orbit.

Satellites have a typical life time of 15 years. Manivannan said their next aim is to train Sri Lankan youths with space technology and this would be initially done in China. "We will soon call for applications for 'would be astronauts'. After going through their records , we will send them for training to China," he said. "After three to four years, they will be able to undertake missions in space and sending a Sri Lankan to space would no longer be a dream," he said.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 09/04/2012 09:44 PM
From Xinhua, Space-age food served up with seeds of success (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2012-09/03/c_131824109.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 09/08/2012 11:31 AM
From Xinhua: More satellite launches planned for upgrading maritime monitoring (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/sci/2012-09/06/c_131831536.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 09/18/2012 05:04 PM
Another Latin American country will probably sign a contract for the purchase and launch of a communications satellite with China.

The agreement can be made with China Great Wall Industry Corporation next October when some Nicaraguan officials visit China.

The satellite will be named Nicasat-1.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 09/22/2012 05:45 PM
From Xinhua: China has no timetable for manned moon landing: chief scientist (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/sci/2012-09/19/c_131861211.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 09/23/2012 08:20 AM
The article says

"Putting a man on the moon involves a very complicated systematic program with many technical challenges to solve, including those related to conducting space walks, docking, staying on the moon and returning."

"China won't carry out a manned moon landing until it masters all of these crucial technologies."

Space walks and docking have been completed. From the information I have, staying on the Moon will be completed by Chang'e 3 next year and Chang'e 4 in 2014, which will land with rovers. The last step will be completed by Chang'e 5 in 2017 with a Lunar sample return. So, manned Lunar landing in 2018?!

Also interesting to read that the Chinese are also planning a Lunar base.

"Ouyang said China's lunar probe projects currently consist of unmanned moon exploration, a manned moon landing and the building of a moon base."
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: QuantumG on 09/23/2012 10:42 PM
and after they're done duplicating the efforts of other countries we'll see whether they're willing or capable of doing anything new.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Warren Platts on 09/24/2012 05:17 AM
A permanently manned station would be something new, and they have expressly expressed a willingness to do that, and they certainly have the capability to make it happen. The sad truth is that if the 21st century version of the USA wants to do something new, it will have to duplicate the efforts of other countries--the 20th century version of itself--as well. The mere fact of Apollo provides about a zero technical headstart for the US of A nowadays. Also, the US manifests less willingness to do something new than China does. Making noises about Mars doesn't count.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Warren Platts on 09/24/2012 08:26 AM
A permanently manned station would be something new, and they have expressly expressed a willingness to do that,

When?

Interestingly enough, there was an article in 2007 with the exact same headline: China has no timetable for manned moon landing (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-10/25/content_6942984.htm). Yet they sure have made a lot of progress since 2007. Meanwhile, what has the US really accomplished?

When will they start construction of Moon base? My guess is sometime in the last half of the 2020's. They'll have Lunar return mastered by 2017; and long duration flights in LEO bythen as well. The only thing they'll need is a manned lander at that point. So sorties by early 2020's, base by late 2020's.

They will certainly be able to afford it if they want: by 2030, China is projected to have an economy basically twice the size of the USA's.

 http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/09/world-economies-in-2030.html

Quote
Quote
and they certainly have the capability to make it happen.

No they don't.

Not right this second. But they have the capabilty to obtain the capability, which is more than can be said for about 98% of the ROW.

I firmly believe China will be the first to return to the Moon. NASA is too addled to do much of anything. US commercial space doesn't have enough $$$ to beat them to the punch. Neither does Russia.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/23/2012 01:53 PM
Another Latin American country will probably sign a contract for the purchase and launch of a communications satellite with China.

The agreement can be made with China Great Wall Industry Corporation next October when some Nicaraguan officials visit China.

The satellite will be named Nicasat-1.

The official agreement has been signed on October 12.

http://www.9ifly.cn/thread-10671-1-1.html (http://www.9ifly.cn/thread-10671-1-1.html)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 10/25/2012 09:17 AM
From Xinhua, China makes progress in spaceflight research (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/sci/2012-10/24/c_131928015.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 11/01/2012 09:12 AM
the latest issue of the Chinese Journal of Space Science (n.5 vol 32, 2012)
http://www.cjss.ac.cn/EN/volumn/current.shtml
has an interesting series of free access survey articles on the status of Chinese space science
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 11/01/2012 11:30 AM
Another Latin American country will probably sign a contract for the purchase and launch of a communications satellite with China.

The agreement can be made with China Great Wall Industry Corporation next October when some Nicaraguan officials visit China.

The satellite will be named Nicasat-1.

Rumors have spread from internal sources that China has sold yet another DFH-4 bus communications satellite to a country which "has never shown up in previous Chinese spaceflight reports". Another insider claimed that the buyer is Congo (presumbly the much larger, ex-Belgium one).

Source: http://www.9ifly.cn/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=197&pid=226647&fromuid=19646 (http://www.9ifly.cn/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=197&pid=226647&fromuid=19646)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 11/05/2012 07:01 AM
Rumors have spread from internal sources that China has sold yet another DFH-4 bus communications satellite to a country which "has never shown up in previous Chinese spaceflight reports". Another insider claimed that the buyer is Congo (presumbly the much larger, ex-Belgium one).

Source: http://www.9ifly.cn/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=197&pid=226647&fromuid=19646 (http://www.9ifly.cn/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=197&pid=226647&fromuid=19646)

Congo Sat 1 to launch in three years

http://www.tmtfinance.com/news/congo-sat-1-launch-three-years (http://www.tmtfinance.com/news/congo-sat-1-launch-three-years)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 11/12/2012 12:10 PM
So, Shenzhou-10 has been pencilled in for the first half of June 2013.  This leads to a question in my mind (and I suppose you could call it Beijingology).  The Chinese space program (human space flight specifically) - is it:

1) In no hurry;

2) A low priority for funding, or;

3) A low priority for launch windows?

FWIW, I vote '1'.  As far as I can tell, progress beyond fairly small-scale missions to LEO requires CZ-5 which, in turn, requires an as-yet-incomplete new launch complex.  It's possible that they're just pacing themselves to go through their pre-CZ-5 manifest at a regular pace.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: vulture4 on 11/14/2012 07:05 PM
With only four manned flights in ten years the Chinese program has never been hurried. They are definitely not racing with us, nor would it serve their purposes to do so. To quote a Chinese friend, "If they lost, they would look incompetent; if they won, they would irritate their biggest customer."
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 11/17/2012 12:04 PM
Rumors have spread from internal sources that China has sold yet another DFH-4 bus communications satellite to a country which "has never shown up in previous Chinese spaceflight reports". Another insider claimed that the buyer is Congo (presumbly the much larger, ex-Belgium one).

Source: http://www.9ifly.cn/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=197&pid=226647&fromuid=19646 (http://www.9ifly.cn/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=197&pid=226647&fromuid=19646)

Congo Sat 1 to launch in three years

http://www.tmtfinance.com/news/congo-sat-1-launch-three-years (http://www.tmtfinance.com/news/congo-sat-1-launch-three-years)

And now the contract of Congo-Sat 1 has been officially signed. The DFH-4 platform comsat will carry 32 transponders in the C, Ku and Ka bands from the 50.95 deg. East position. Launch is scheduled in late 2015.

Source: http://news.xinhuanet.com/world/2012-11/17/c_113710904.htm (http://news.xinhuanet.com/world/2012-11/17/c_113710904.htm)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: beidou on 11/17/2012 02:56 PM
Rumors have spread from internal sources that China has sold yet another DFH-4 bus communications satellite to a country which "has never shown up in previous Chinese spaceflight reports". Another insider claimed that the buyer is Congo (presumbly the much larger, ex-Belgium one).

Source: http://www.9ifly.cn/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=197&pid=226647&fromuid=19646 (http://www.9ifly.cn/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=197&pid=226647&fromuid=19646)

Congo Sat 1 to launch in three years

http://www.tmtfinance.com/news/congo-sat-1-launch-three-years (http://www.tmtfinance.com/news/congo-sat-1-launch-three-years)

And now the contract of Congo-Sat 1 has been officially signed. The DFH-4 platform comsat will carry 32 transponders in the C, Ku and Ka bands from the 50.95 deg. East position. Launch is scheduled in late 2015.

Source: http://news.xinhuanet.com/world/2012-11/17/c_113710904.htm (http://news.xinhuanet.com/world/2012-11/17/c_113710904.htm)

The report also mentioned there will be two more international commercial launches by the end of this year. So I would guess CBERS-3 is still on the agenda of 2012.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: input~2 on 11/18/2012 06:41 AM
An article in English about Congosat-1 contract:
(source (http://europe.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2012-11/18/content_15938788.htm))
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: input~2 on 11/18/2012 10:07 AM
AFAIU, the 6 contracts for B$2.4 mentionned in the Xinhua article  (http://news.xinhuanet.com/world/2012-11/17/c_113710904.htm)include:
- Congosat-1 satellite manufacturing & launch contracts
- APT launch service contract
- China Academy of Science "strategic pioneer program on space science" launch contract (includes 5 launches (http://english.nssc.cas.cn/ns/es/201211/t20121113_95240.html))
-  APT communication satellite system procurement framework contract

(Thanks for any correction :) )
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: HappyMartian on 11/28/2012 05:36 PM
Time for the U.S. to Partner with China in Space? By George Abbey and Leroy Chiao  Nov 27, 2012
At: http://news.discovery.com/space/opinion-nasa-partner-china-politics-spaceflight-gap-121127.html
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 12/04/2012 10:21 AM
From Xinhua, Chinese astronauts may grow veg on Moon (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2012-12/03/c_132016209.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 12/27/2012 04:43 PM
From Xinhua, China's Beidou system starts service in Asian-Pacific (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2012-12/27/c_132066468.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: apace on 12/29/2012 12:05 PM
Late Breaking News of China’s Manned Space Program
by Yang Liwei, Deputy DG
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: simpl simon on 12/29/2012 05:18 PM
Thank you, apace!

Can you share with us some details of where this presentation came from? I notice the file is labeled 14-Liwei - are there 13 preceeding presentations?

I am guessing that Yang Liwei is the same Mr Yang who made the first Chinese human space flight.


Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 12/29/2012 05:32 PM
Thank you, apace!

Can you share with us some details of where this presentation came from? I notice the file is labeled 14-Liwei - are there 13 preceeding presentations?

I am guessing that Yang Liwei is the same Mr Yang who made the first Chinese human space flight.




http://www.kacstaerospace.org/2012/en/images/speakers/pdf/14-Liwei.pdf (http://www.kacstaerospace.org/2012/en/images/speakers/pdf/14-Liwei.pdf)

And oh yes - that's the Yang Liwei. :)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: simpl simon on 12/29/2012 05:36 PM
Thank you, apace!

Can you share with us some details of where this presentation came from? I notice the file is labeled 14-Liwei - are there 13 preceeding presentations?

I am guessing that Yang Liwei is the same Mr Yang who made the first Chinese human space flight.


http://www.kacstaerospace.org/2012/en/images/speakers/pdf/14-Liwei.pdf (http://www.kacstaerospace.org/2012/en/images/speakers/pdf/14-Liwei.pdf)

And oh yes - that's the Yang Liwei. :)

Thanks GP. You beat me to it.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Spiff on 12/30/2012 10:05 AM
Interesting that the presentation mentions TianGong-2 and the modular space station, but NOT TianGong-3.
AFAIK the plan was to have 3 TianGong stations before moving on to the modular station. Has this plan changed?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: apace on 12/30/2012 10:10 AM
About TG-3: If you look at their timetable, it looks like. If everything goes well with TG-2, there's no reason to not step directly to the modular station.

Another interesting point: Looks like the Chinese have learned from the ISS that they want their Modular Station more autonomous and no need for a permanent crew to be there to run the station.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Spiff on 12/30/2012 10:24 AM
I agree with the timeline. From the presentation:
2014-2016: TianGong-2
2016-2020: Modular station, construction phase
2020-onwards: Modular station, operational phase

There are hints about 'cargo ship development' and 'in orbit propellant refilling test' being conducted on TianGong-2. (Slide 28 of the presentation).

Thus far, my understanding was that these things would be tested on TG-3, with TG-2 mainly being used for testing longer missions and recycling capability. It seems those two things are now combined in TG-2.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 12/30/2012 10:43 AM
And what if TG-3 was always meant to be the modular station? We were always talking about 2020 as the launch year, but in reality its the year when the station becomes operational with the core module and the two experimental modules.

I don't see China launching everything in 2020, maybe in a period starting in 2018 looks practicable to

- launch the core module;
- launch a manned and a resupply mission to the core module;
- launch the first experimental module;
- return the manned mission;
- in 2019 launch a second manned mission;
- separate the first resupply mission;
- launch a second resupply mission;
- launch the second experimental module;
- return of the second manned mission;
- in 2020 launch the third manned mission;
- start operational phase.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Spiff on 12/30/2012 11:45 AM
And what if TG-3 was always meant to be the modular station?

Agree. That could be possible. It's just something that hasn't been considered much on these forums yet.
Time will tell us I guess.... :)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phillip Clark on 12/30/2012 12:02 PM
And what if TG-3 was always meant to be the modular station?
Agree. That could be possible. It's just something that hasn't been considered much on these forums yet.
Time will tell us I guess.... :)

Didn't the Chinese at some point say that the modular station would have a name other than Tiangong?

I have always thought that Tiangong 3 would be the first flight of a 20 tonnes module, allowing flights longer than Tiangongs 1 and 2 can support.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 12/30/2012 12:10 PM
And what if TG-3 was always meant to be the modular station?
Agree. That could be possible. It's just something that hasn't been considered much on these forums yet.
Time will tell us I guess.... :)

Didn't the Chinese at some point say that the modular station would have a name other than Tiangong?

I have always thought that Tiangong 3 would be the first flight of a 20 tonnes module, allowing flights longer than Tiangongs 1 and 2 can support.

True. In fact they have organized a national wide competition to name the station and the cargo vehicle. I think that those names would have been public by now. Don't know in what stage is that.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Stan Black on 12/30/2012 12:33 PM
Or Tiangong-2 has been dropped, was it not a back up to Tiangong-1? So not needed? Tiangong-3 has become Tiangong-2?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 12/30/2012 01:21 PM
With the 'cargo ship development' and 'in orbit propellant refilling test' being conducted on TG-2, we can now assume that this station will have two docking ports. So, if TG-2 was the backup of TG-1, then the delay on its launch can be related to the need to have more time to make modifications on the station with the addition of a second docking port.

Or Stan can be right, and they simply dropped the original TG-2 and went directly to the TG-3 'Salyut-6/7' type station.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: apace on 12/30/2012 01:27 PM
And as you can see on the slides, their cargo ship will be based on the TG technology. So we have some difference between russia and china, where russias progress is much more like the soyuz.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 12/30/2012 01:56 PM
From Xinhua, China's Beidou system starts service in Asian-Pacific (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2012-12/27/c_132066468.htm).

The bigger news is that the Chinese has released the first version of the full Interface Control Document of their own satellite navigation system: http://www.beidou.gov.cn/2012/12/27/201212276bd6e3c7f2af4f809a2dbe0e66c73776.html (http://www.beidou.gov.cn/2012/12/27/201212276bd6e3c7f2af4f809a2dbe0e66c73776.html)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phillip Clark on 12/30/2012 02:29 PM
And as you can see on the slides, their cargo ship will be based on the TG technology. So we have some difference between russia and china, where russias progress is much more like the soyuz.

Rather like the Soviets using the TKS as an automated cargo carrier (Cosmos 1443).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Spiff on 12/30/2012 04:21 PM
With the 'cargo ship development' and 'in orbit propellant refilling test' being conducted on TG-2, we can now assume that this station will have two docking ports. So, if TG-2 was the backup of TG-1, then the delay on its launch can be related to the need to have more time to make modifications on the station with the addition of a second docking port.

Or Stan can be right, and they simply dropped the original TG-2 and went directly to the TG-3 'Salyut-6/7' type station.

Here's an idea:
If a backup was indeed built for TG-1, and Chinese engineers decided that they learned what there is to learn from TG-1 class stations, they could indeed go on to the next step with TG-3 becoming TG-2. Now, that leaves the original already built TG-1 backup.

So, I think we may have found the structural unit that will be used for the first TG-based cargo ship!

Or am I jumping to conclusions?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 12/30/2012 09:07 PM
The truncated test program sounds reasonable to be, with TG-2 being the test of the large modules for the follow on station.

One thing that has long puzzled me is the continued reference, in words and art, to the modular station having only two docked modules (plus the cargo and crew spacecraft) when the art clearly shows 6 ports, enough for another two.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: tonyq on 12/31/2012 10:49 AM
This is a fascinating presentation; thanks for posting the link.

It appears, that the confidence that the Chinese have gained from TG-1 operations so far, are definitely encouraging them to rethink their original plans for TG-2 and TG-3 and to merge objectives and reach the stage where they will eventually launch the Space Station module with fewer intermediate steps. 

This is not the first time that this has happened. Remember that at one time, the first docking was going to involve the orbital module of an unmanned SZ, and a manned SZ, but this was scrapped in favour of flying what became the TG class module.

Although 2013 looks like being a fairly quiet year for their manned programme, with just SZ-10 scheduled, the period 2014 -2020 is going to involve a good deal more manned activity from the Chinese than we have seen in the last 5 or 6 years.

All this raises questions around astronaut recruitment, and I'd be interested in how everyone feels this will pan, to adequately support the flights over the period to 2020?

The original 1996/8 group of 14 will nearly all be 50+ by 2016, which is the cut-off for PLAAF pilots to fly, and it seems that several are already ineligible for further missions, for various reasons. Maybe only 8 or 9 are still currently active, which could well be down to 3 or 4 by 2016. The second 2010 group contains only 5 pilots, the first of whom will probably fly to TG-2, to gain experience, perhaps in preference to the 'unflown' older guys. The two women are, in effect, a 'special selection' and may be retired after Wang Yaping flies on SZ-10. Certainly Liu Yang seems to enjoy 'national treasure' status like Yang Liwei, and seems unlikely to fly again.

I'd speculate there will be 3 manned flights to TG-2, which will need a pool of at least 12 (four crews of three), so bearly enough in the squad to cover this requirement. Thereafter, the period 2017-2020 will possibly see 6/8 manned flights. Unless they plan to recycle crews really quickly, which is unlikely with longer duration missions, this would seem to require a pool of at least 20 astronauts, not all of whom will necessarily need to be pilots. 

The current numbers look adequate for the TG-2 missions, but very thin thereafter. With history showing that Chinese take 12 months or so on each  astronaut recruitment cycle and like to spend a long time training selectees, it seems to me that they need a reasonable number of new astronauts fairly soon?       
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Zero-G on 12/31/2012 03:36 PM
Here is something interesting, I found here: http://trishul-trident.blogspot.de/2012/11/highlights-of-airshow-china-2012-in.html
Quote
In another development, China is soon expected to officially invite India, Japan and South Korea to become consortium-members for designing, building and deploying an international space station by 2020. Under this concept, each consortium-member will be responsible for designing, fabricating and deploying its own respective manned space module, totalling four in all.

Is this just wishful thinking by the author of this blog, or is there any substance to it? I have never read or heard anything so far, about China having the intention to invite other countries to contribute modules to its space station.
Have there been any announcements or indications that the Chinese really plan to include modules from other countries on their space station?
(BTW: I was in Zhuhai too, but did not see or hear anything hinting to this. But I have to admit that I don't read or speak Chinese, so it might have been "lost in translation".)

At least this would answer Dalhousie's question, what the two vacant ports might be intended for... ;)
One thing that has long puzzled me is the continued reference, in words and art, to the modular station having only two docked modules (plus the cargo and crew spacecraft) when the art clearly shows 6 ports, enough for another two.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phillip Clark on 12/31/2012 03:45 PM
While plans can change over time, about 2-3 years ago China said that Tiangong 1 would see one unpiloted Shenzhou and two piloted missions: and then Tiangongs 2 and 3 would each see three piloted visits.   The original quote has got to be referenced somewhere on one of the threads!
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Zero-G on 12/31/2012 04:03 PM
Some interesting details about Yang Liwei's presentation:
- The left image on page 6 does not show the Chinese space station. This looks more like the Russian part of ISS, with a big red flag painted on Zvezda. One of the module looks like FGB Zarya, and the spacecraft on the nadir port looks like a Soyuz, with the typical shape of the Soyuz OM.
- All artwork of the station published so far, shows the solar panels on the experiment modules to be attached the way that is shown on page 29 of the presentation. But now, there are images on pages 27, 31 and 32 where the panels are attached differently, more like "ISS-style", which allows them to be rotated around two axes instead of one. See also this picture here:
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 12/31/2012 09:29 PM
Artwork is not always final, remember the art work that showed Shenzhou docked at either the front of the rear of Tiangong?

It also gets recycled a lot, especially in presentations.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 01/01/2013 03:50 AM
Here is something interesting, I found here: http://trishul-trident.blogspot.de/2012/11/highlights-of-airshow-china-2012-in.html
Quote
In another development, China is soon expected to officially invite India, Japan and South Korea to become consortium-members for designing, building and deploying an international space station by 2020. Under this concept, each consortium-member will be responsible for designing, fabricating and deploying its own respective manned space module, totalling four in all.

I would be surprised if those countries would accept. India is busy with its own launch vehicle and manned programs. South Korea doesn't have a manned program and is concentrating on its satellite launch vehicle program. Japan is committed to the ISS. There has been previous cooperation between Europe and China, so that might be a possibility. However, ESA is also committed to ISS and now recently Orion.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: simpl simon on 01/01/2013 09:22 AM
Artwork is not always final, remember the art work that showed Shenzhou docked at either the front of the rear of Tiangong?

It also gets recycled a lot, especially in presentations.

How true! In particular the image on p. 29 is essentially identical to an image published in April 2011 and credited to China Daily.

Rather disappointing for a presentation titled "Late Breaking News of China's Manned Space Program"
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: simpl simon on 01/01/2013 09:33 AM
Snip:..........See also this picture here:

Could you give us the source for that image?

Also. it appears to be too wide - the cylindrical modules are distinctly oval. I think it looks more realistic if you resize the image to be a square.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Zero-G on 01/01/2013 10:44 AM
Snip:..........See also this picture here:

Could you give us the source for that image?

Also. it appears to be too wide - the cylindrical modules are distinctly oval. I think it looks more realistic if you resize the image to be a square.

Source is the website I linked above: http://trishul-trident.blogspot.de/2012/11/highlights-of-airshow-china-2012-in.html

You are right about wrong image shape. I resized it to be square and reposted it in my post above. Looks better now?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: simpl simon on 01/01/2013 11:55 AM
Sorry - I guess I had not woken up.............
Thanks for the reference. It looks like the image has been resized to match an arbitrary column width.

All the best for 2013
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Zero-G on 01/01/2013 12:35 PM
Here is something interesting, I found here: http://trishul-trident.blogspot.de/2012/11/highlights-of-airshow-china-2012-in.html
Quote
In another development, China is soon expected to officially invite India, Japan and South Korea to become consortium-members for designing, building and deploying an international space station by 2020. Under this concept, each consortium-member will be responsible for designing, fabricating and deploying its own respective manned space module, totalling four in all.

I would be surprised if those countries would accept. India is busy with its own launch vehicle and manned programs. South Korea doesn't have a manned program and is concentrating on its satellite launch vehicle program. Japan is committed to the ISS. There has been previous cooperation between Europe and China, so that might be a possibility. However, ESA is also committed to ISS and now recently Orion.

Quite my thoughts as well. But on the other hand: ISS will come to an end and a follow-up program is nowhere in sight. It might be an option for Japan and ESA to cooperate with China after ISS.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Star One on 01/01/2013 04:21 PM
Here is something interesting, I found here: http://trishul-trident.blogspot.de/2012/11/highlights-of-airshow-china-2012-in.html
Quote
In another development, China is soon expected to officially invite India, Japan and South Korea to become consortium-members for designing, building and deploying an international space station by 2020. Under this concept, each consortium-member will be responsible for designing, fabricating and deploying its own respective manned space module, totalling four in all.

I would be surprised if those countries would accept. India is busy with its own launch vehicle and manned programs. South Korea doesn't have a manned program and is concentrating on its satellite launch vehicle program. Japan is committed to the ISS. There has been previous cooperation between Europe and China, so that might be a possibility. However, ESA is also committed to ISS and now recently Orion.

Quite my thoughts as well. But on the other hand: ISS will come to an end and a follow-up program is nowhere in sight. It might be an option for Japan and ESA to cooperate with China after ISS.

I wonder if ESA did become involved they would look to develop a similar kind of barter agreement as they use with the ISS? 
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 01/10/2013 05:13 AM
In http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2013-01-10/033925998072.shtml a Google translation has this to say about China's current Lunar plans:

"He disclosed that the implementation of the unmanned lunar probe will China's manned lunar landing and lunar bases accumulated technology and experience, but China's manned mission to the moon is still no exact timetable."
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 01/10/2013 06:11 AM
In http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2013-01-10/033925998072.shtml a Google translation has this to say about China's current Lunar plans:

"He disclosed that the implementation of the unmanned lunar probe will China's manned lunar landing and lunar bases accumulated technology and experience, but China's manned mission to the moon is still no exact timetable."

A more refined translation:  ;)

"He disclosed that the implementation of unmanned lunar exploration will help to accumulate technology skills and experience for China's manned lunar landing and lunar bases plans, but there is still no exact timetable for China's manned mission to the Moon."
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 01/10/2013 08:15 AM
Artwork is not always final, remember the art work that showed Shenzhou docked at either the front of the rear of Tiangong?

It also gets recycled a lot, especially in presentations.

NASA does it all the time.....

How true! In particular the image on p. 29 is essentially identical to an image published in April 2011 and credited to China Daily.

Rather disappointing for a presentation titled "Late Breaking News of China's Manned Space Program"

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 01/16/2013 09:07 AM
Holy cow - the Chinese are certainly thinking big!  :o They estimate that by 2020 about 20% of worldwide active spacecrafts in orbit (that's 200+!) will be Chinese, and in terms of launches there will be 30+ launches per year(!), probably reaching more than 30% of yearly worldwide launch totals.

Falcon? Atlas? Ariane? Angara? Soyuz? Nah, none will get used as frequent as the new Long March - by wide margins!  ::)

Source (http://bbs.9ifly.cn/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=7427&pid=235943&fromuid=19646)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: beidou on 01/16/2013 11:39 AM
Holy cow - the Chinese are certainly thinking big!  :o They estimate that by 2020 about 20% of worldwide active spacecrafts in orbit (that's 200+!) will be Chinese, and in terms of launches there will be 30+ launches per year(!), probably reaching more than 30% of yearly worldwide launch totals.

Falcon? Atlas? Ariane? Angara? Soyuz? Nah, none will get used as frequent as the new Long March - by wide margins!  ::)

Source (http://bbs.9ifly.cn/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=7427&pid=235943&fromuid=19646)

But you have to count the many launches will be used for spacecrafts of undeveloped countries, which are basically ignored by other space powers.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 01/22/2013 05:12 AM
China outlines aerospace development goal for 2020
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/202936/8102470.html

"break through the key technologies of heavy lift launch vehicles and manned lunar landing, establish independent space station and carry out the deep space exploration projects on Mars, Venus, Saturn, Jupiter and other asteroids."
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 01/23/2013 02:59 PM
Hmm I don't know how Morris can read the tea leaves in such a way...... based on the presentation posted two pages above, I think he got it all wrong!

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Reshuffle_for_Tiangong_999.html (http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Reshuffle_for_Tiangong_999.html)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 01/23/2013 08:39 PM
An interesting and dramatic reading about the 'Valentine's Day Massacre' of February 14, 1996 with the first launch of CZ-3B with Intelsat-708. Ar article by Anatoly Zak published at the Air & Space magazine: http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/Disaster-at-Xichang-187496561.html?c=y&page=1
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 02/15/2013 10:38 AM
From sinodefenceforum.com... some interesting news...

- The GEO Millimetre Wave Atmosphere Temperature Sensor Project completed its acceptance review. It was reportedly the world’s first full-sized prototype able to obtain temperature data with a ground resolution of 50m from geostationary orbit.

- Aerospace Dongfanghong Satellite is developing 6 small military meteorological satellites to be launched in 2015.

- On 7 November, at 9:10 Beijing Time, the LIPS-200 ion electric thruster on the SJ-9A satellite made a successful firing lasting 3 minutes. It was the first time for China to test an electric propulsion system in space. One hour and 40 minutes later, another electric thruster on the same satellite, the LHT-100 Hall Effect electric thruster fired for 180 seconds. At 12:28, the LIPS-200 made the second firing for 4 minutes. Up to 14 November, it has completed the first phase of in-orbit testing with 12 firings. According to the plan, the LIPS-200 will be tested for 200 firings totalling 50 hours. LIPS-200 is developed by the Institute 510 of CAST, has a diameter of 20 cm and a weight of 140 kg, and provides a thrust of 40 mN and a specific impulse of 3,000 seconds. The LHT-100 was developed by Institute 801 of AAPLT, providing a thrust of 4 mN and a specific impulse of 1,600 seconds.

- There are a 2.5m resolution multispectral imager on the SJ-9A and a 73m resolution infrared focal plane array assembly on the SJ-9B.

- Shijian-10 microgravity satellite development was officially kicked off. It was the fourth satellite which got approved under the Space Science Pioneer Programme. The other three are the Quantum Science Satellite, the Dark Matter Exploration Satellite (DMES) and the HXMT (Hard X-ray Modulation Telescope).

- The Quantum Science Satellite has started prototype development in early December.

- On 8 October, the payload of the DMES completed the beam test in CERN

- In November, airborne calibration testing was perform the Sino-French Oceanic Satellite (CFOSAT).

- Long delayed SST (Space Solar Telescope) project was revived recently. The one metre telescope is now renamed DSO (Deep-space Solar Observatory) with a new role and will be placed at the Sun-Earth L1 point. DSO is expected to be approved in the near future.

- China plans to launch a two metre space telescope, comparable to the Hubble Space Telescope, around 2020.

- The Banxing-2 sub-satellite will be carried with TG-2 and will be released from it. Similar to the Banxing-1 released from the Shenzhou 7 in 2008, it is developed by Shanghai Engineering Centre for Microsatellites

- CE-3 3000N thrust engine completed the first simulated high altitude test firing using an expanded nozzle. It was another milestone after its first successful test firing. The engine will be used for orbit transfer and lunar landing.

- The 35m deep space tracking antenna in Kashi and 64m one in Jiamusi have been completed.

- CAST conducted 4 rocket sled tests for the recovery system of CE-5. In all tests, the parachute bay cover was ejected and the drag chute was deployed as expected.

- The microwave docking radar of CE-5 completed an important review. CE-5 will perform lunar orbit rendezvous and docking. The lunar orbit docking radar is developed on the basis of the Shenzhou docking radar, but smaller, lighter, more precise and has higher automation level.

- LM-11 all-solid small launcher has been approved by the government.

- the China Meteorological Administration announced an ambitious plan for China’s weather satellite. It will invest RMB 21.7 billion to launch 3 FY-2 Block 3 satellites, 3 FY-3 afternoon satellites, 2 FY-3 morning satellites, 1 rainfall radar satellite, 2 FY-4 optical satellites and two experimental satellites during 2012 to 2020 (one FY-2 has already been launched in January 2012). Currently China has five weather satellites in operation. In addition, two recently retired satellites, the FY-1D and the FY-2C, have been working for more than 10 and 8 years respectively, far exceeding its designed 2-year and3-year working life.

- The 4th Academy of CASC made progress on solid motor development. It successfully test fired a demonstration motor using a new type of gimballed nozzle.

- The location of six ground stations for China’s first carbon dioxide monitoring satellite (TanSat) was recently decided. In addition to the planned TanSat, China will also place carbon dioxide monitoring equipment on the upcoming FY-3 weather satellite.

- The study of “key technology of the wide field hyper-spectral small satellite payload”, led by China Geological Survey, completed a review in Beijing, setting a foundation for the satellite’s approval.

- The new generation geostationary meteorological satellite, the FY-4, started prototype development. An engineering model of the atmospheric composition detection system, developed by Anhui Institute of Optics and Fine Mechanics (AIOFM), completed the acceptance testing organised by SAST.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Star One on 02/15/2013 05:57 PM
Has there previously been released any details of their Hubble equivalent telescope?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Kryten on 02/16/2013 06:26 PM
- LM-11 all-solid small launcher has been approved by the government.
Do we know anything about LM-8, 9 or 10?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 02/16/2013 06:36 PM
- LM-11 all-solid small launcher has been approved by the government.
Do we know anything about LM-8, 9 or 10?

I haven't found any reference to CZ-8 or CZ-10. CZ-9 is a study for an interplanetary launch vehicle with a capacity of 100,000 kg for LEO or 50,000 to LTO.

 
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phillip Clark on 02/16/2013 06:57 PM
- LM-11 all-solid small launcher has been approved by the government.
Do we know anything about LM-8, 9 or 10?
I haven't found any reference to CZ-8 or CZ-10. CZ-9 is a study for an interplanetary launch vehicle with a capacity of 100,000 kg for LEO or 50,000 to LTO.

Maybe the CZ-8 or CZ-10 is the CZ-9 without its Earth escape stage, so used for LEO missions only?   Skylab-class payloads?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: BUAA on 02/17/2013 09:12 AM
I think one factor was missing in all the discussions regarding China's HSF programme here:

At some point the launch complex in the Jiuquan Launch Centre will need to be modernised to support the launch of the CZ-7 rocket, which uses different propellants to those of the CZ-2F. This means that the launch complex will be out of action for HSF missions for at least 12 months, if not longer.

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phillip Clark on 02/17/2013 09:32 AM
I think one factor was missing in all the discussions regarding China's HSF programme here:
At some point the launch complex in the Jiuquan Launch Centre will need to be modernised to support the launch of the CZ-7 rocket, which uses different propellants to those of the CZ-2F. This means that the launch complex will be out of action for HSF missions for at least 12 months, if not longer.

Since the Tiangong programme seems to being stretched out - with the elimination of a second Tiangong 1 class station - we could see such a gap between the flights to Tiangong 1 and 2 (which will require a CZ-5 derived launcher).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: MATTBLAK on 02/17/2013 10:02 AM
Are Tiangong modules capable of being docked end-to-end? If so, two of these modules being docked with a Shenzhou and its crew, who might stay a month or so would certainly duplicate early Russian station operations. And it would build experience for a larger Mir-type station later.

Or would they just go straight from single-module Tiangong operations to the bigger station with no middle step like my above speculation?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phillip Clark on 02/17/2013 10:27 AM
Are Tiangong modules capable of being docked end-to-end? If so, two of these modules being docked with a Shenzhou and its crew, who might stay a month or so would certainly duplicate early Russian station operations. And it would build experience for a larger Mir-type station later.
Or would they just go straight from single-module Tiangong operations to the bigger station with no middle step like my above speculation?

There is no evidence that the Tiangong 1 modules can be docked end-to-end - all illustrations show only the single docking port.   But the larger Tiangong 2 could have two ports: Shenzhou at the front, cargo freighter at the back.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: aquanaut99 on 02/17/2013 10:41 AM
I think one factor was missing in all the discussions regarding China's HSF programme here:

At some point the launch complex in the Jiuquan Launch Centre will need to be modernised to support the launch of the CZ-7 rocket, which uses different propellants to those of the CZ-2F. This means that the launch complex will be out of action for HSF missions for at least 12 months, if not longer.



I thought they were just going to do the Shenzhou launches from Wenchang once they shift to the CZ-7?  Also, this shift is unlikely to happen immediatley once CZ-7 becomes available. It would be more prudent to keep the proven and reliable CZ-2F as the main Shenzhou launcher for another few years, while CZ-7 proves itself by doing unmanned launches first.

This is why I expect Shenzhou will continue to launch from Jiuquan during the TG-2 missions. The shift to CZ-7 will probably not take place for another few years, possibly only once Shenzhou Mark II (or whatever it will be called) becomes available (with larger mass, beyond the capacity of CZ-2F). Probably not before 2018 or so.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: MATTBLAK on 02/17/2013 10:51 AM
Are Tiangong modules capable of being docked end-to-end? If so, two of these modules being docked with a Shenzhou and its crew, who might stay a month or so would certainly duplicate early Russian station operations. And it would build experience for a larger Mir-type station later.
Or would they just go straight from single-module Tiangong operations to the bigger station with no middle step like my above speculation?

There is no evidence that the Tiangong 1 modules can be docked end-to-end - all illustrations show only the single docking port.   But the larger Tiangong 2 could have two ports: Shenzhou at the front, cargo freighter at the back.

Which of course is what Russia did with the early Salyuts. A two-port Tiangong with a manned Shenzhou and a freighter version certainly could give China her first taste of long duration flight!
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: BUAA on 02/17/2013 07:24 PM
I thought they were just going to do the Shenzhou launches from Wenchang once they shift to the CZ-7?  Also, this shift is unlikely to happen immediatley once CZ-7 becomes available. It would be more prudent to keep the proven and reliable CZ-2F as the main Shenzhou launcher for another few years, while CZ-7 proves itself by doing unmanned launches first.

This is why I expect Shenzhou will continue to launch from Jiuquan during the TG-2 missions. The shift to CZ-7 will probably not take place for another few years, possibly only once Shenzhou Mark II (or whatever it will be called) becomes available (with larger mass, beyond the capacity of CZ-2F). Probably not before 2018 or so.
I believe that there is no plan to move human space flight missions from Jiuquan to Hainan/Wenchang. The latter will be used for the launch of space station modules and cargo vehicles, but Shenzhou will always fly from Jiuquan. Both Jiuquan and Taiyuan will be upgraded to CZ-7 standard at some point.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: aquanaut99 on 02/17/2013 08:05 PM

I believe that there is no plan to move human space flight missions from Jiuquan to Hainan/Wenchang. The latter will be used for the launch of space station modules and cargo vehicles, but Shenzhou will always fly from Jiuquan. Both Jiuquan and Taiyuan will be upgraded to CZ-7 standard at some point.

Well, assuming they want to do the much speculated-about manned lunar missions at some point, they would then almost certainly have to make Wenchang the primary launch site. Irrespective of whether they choose to do it as an EOR-style mission with the CZ-5 (or the tentative CZ-5DY) or whether they build the super-heavy CZ-9. I'm sure there are some plans for staging manned missions out of Wenchang, even if I agree that for the next few years all manned missions will launch from Jiuquan.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 02/21/2013 12:08 AM
Not sure where to post it, but it seems that the old APStar 1 was renamed ChinaSat 5E since October last year: http://www.chinasatcom.com/en/News_Info.aspx?m=20110329113845577061&n=20130219094440527389 (http://www.chinasatcom.com/en/News_Info.aspx?m=20110329113845577061&n=20130219094440527389)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 02/26/2013 05:02 PM
Hmm..... possibility of the Europeans building the docking mechanism for the future Chinese space station!? Would love to see that plus ESA astronauts flying with the Chinese!  :)

http://www.space.com/19960-china-space-station-europe-cooperation.html (http://www.space.com/19960-china-space-station-europe-cooperation.html)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: apace on 02/26/2013 05:15 PM
Hmm..... possibility of the Europeans building the docking mechanism for the future Chinese space station!? Would love to see that plus ESA astronauts flying with the Chinese!  :)

http://www.space.com/19960-china-space-station-europe-cooperation.html (http://www.space.com/19960-china-space-station-europe-cooperation.html)

More information about the european docking mechanism:
http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/hsf_research/ISS_User_Guide/FS052_10_IBDM.pdf
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 03/04/2013 06:24 AM
Not sure where to post it, but it seems that the old APStar 1 was renamed ChinaSat 5E since October last year: http://www.chinasatcom.com/en/News_Info.aspx?m=20110329113845577061&n=20130219094440527389 (http://www.chinasatcom.com/en/News_Info.aspx?m=20110329113845577061&n=20130219094440527389)

And it seems that the new ChinaSat 12 has been renamed (temporarily?) ChinaSat 15A to take the 51.5 E slot until ChinaSat 15 is launched in a year or two: http://bbs.9ifly.cn/thread-11312-1-1.html (http://bbs.9ifly.cn/thread-11312-1-1.html)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 03/07/2013 01:10 PM
From Xinhua, China to launch quantum experiment satellite in 2016 (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2013-03/07/c_132216505.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 03/14/2013 06:53 AM
Hmmm..... it looks like that the death of Chinese pre-2020 planetary exploration is highly overrated.  ::)

Today an interview with CASC's technological committee chairman Bao Weimin reveals that the Chinese are looking into planetary exploration missions to asteroids (he explicitly said that it may do multiple asteroid explorations, probably fly-bys or small asteroid orbiter missions), Mars and observation of the Sun (Kuafu re-born?) before 2020. Sounds like maybe they are waiting for authorization and appropriation of budgets....  ;)

Source: http://news.cntv.cn/2013/03/14/VIDE1363238641895175.shtml (http://news.cntv.cn/2013/03/14/VIDE1363238641895175.shtml)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 04/06/2013 08:18 AM
new paper: Trajectory Design of Crewed Exploration to Asteroid
http://zgkj.cast.cn/EN/abstract/abstract10640.shtml

Quote
Abstract Trajectory design is an important part of research on crewed asteroid exploration.Firstly, combined with the basic condition and postulate of trajectory design,the trajectory model was built based on the Lambert theory.The validity of the model was verified through computer simulation. The trajectory model was used for the crewed exploration to asteroid 89136, and the trajectory design results were given.Secondly,different failure modes were considered,the abort trajectory and the characteristics were analyzed, and the ability of the explorer to return to the earth in an emergency was discussed.Finally, the related conclusions were drawn.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 04/07/2013 05:26 AM
Thanks plutogno. Unfortunately, I'm not able to download the paper. Can anyone post it here?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 04/07/2013 07:29 AM
here you go. but it's in Chinese...
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 04/08/2013 08:14 AM
Thanks plutogno. Seems like the authors are comparing their results with NASA. Maybe this is the beginning of an Asteroid space race! :-)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: GBpatsfan on 04/10/2013 02:11 AM
This explains everything!  ;D

http://www.theonion.com/articles/china-announces-plans-to-build-international-space,31993/ (http://www.theonion.com/articles/china-announces-plans-to-build-international-space,31993/)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 07/20/2013 09:26 AM
I finally had time to scan a few Chinese brochures from last month's Paris Le Bourget air show
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 07/20/2013 09:33 AM
I finally had time to scan a few Chinese brochures from last month's Paris Le Bourget air show


Great! Thank you very much!
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 11/05/2013 06:03 PM
for those of you who can read Chinese, here is a paper on Shenzhou rendezvous techniques
http://tech.scichina.com:8082/sciE/CN/abstract/abstract512628.shtml
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 11/11/2013 04:22 PM
Not sure if this was already discussed in the thread here
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2013/4042asia_lead_space.html

These bits were news to me :
Quote
Indeed, the head of the China National Space Administration (CNSA), Ma Xingrui, made very clear that China has invited other nations to join its space station program and "help other developing countries to put their astronauts in space."

Quote
Recently, China's first astronaut, Yang Liwei, extended an invitation to foreign space agencies to train crew members for flights on Shenzhou craft. Astronaut Liu Yang reiterated this offer at the Congress. The German space agency is already working with China, having flown experiments on the last Shenzhou mission, and France has also been in discussions with China on cooperation. The European Space Agency, according to Dr. Li, is considering cooperation in microgravity research, human physiology and space medicine, and astronaut selection.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 11/23/2013 12:06 PM
on the next issue of Aviation Week: China’s Space Program Is Taking Off
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=%2Farticle-xml%2FAW_11_25_2013_p50-637107.xml
anybody has a reference for the IAC paper on the Beihang University small Mars orbiter? I have not found it on the IAC website
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 12/20/2013 12:45 AM
I had not seen this pics before

http://bbs.miercn.com/201309/thread_224318_1_2.html


Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Rocket Science on 12/20/2013 12:50 AM
I had not seen this pics before

http://bbs.miercn.com/201309/thread_224318_1_2.html
These are photoshopped U.S. concepts...
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: HappyMartian on 12/29/2013 02:35 PM
"'The obvious place to go, in my opinion, where the big unknowns are, are the poles,' Spudis says. 'The whole thing about polar ice is very interesting. It's an enabling asset [for future human exploration]; it's a big scientific unknown. They could configure a rover with a slightly different instrument configuration to really get some first-order information about the polar deposits.'

From: China Looks To 2017 Sample-Return Moon Mission  By Bradley Perrett, Frank Morring, Jr.
At: http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_12_23_2013_p45-648942.xml&p=2
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 01/08/2014 03:58 PM
progress of the FAST 500 m radiotelescope, which may also have some use in deep space communication
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14azrVel-zo
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 01/08/2014 05:38 PM
progress of the FAST 500 m radiotelescope, which may also have some use in deep space communication

I thought that their original goal was to have a bunch of movable dishes. Have they abandoned that approach?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 01/08/2014 05:45 PM
since at least the early 2000s FAST is a single, Arecibo-like antenna
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 01/08/2014 05:50 PM
since at least the early 2000s FAST is a single, Arecibo-like antenna

But does it have steerable panels?

In 2009 I was at Arecibo (I was working on a project on NEOs and we visited Arecibo because it is used for radar imaging of NEOs). While there we talked to some of the workers who mentioned China's plan. Apparently the Chinese approach does not use a central hanging tower that is moved around to the focal point. They thought that the Chinese approach was much more complicated and likely to break down. I am wondering if the Chinese changed their design to have less moving parts.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Star One on 01/16/2014 07:26 AM
From Universe Today.

China considers Manned Moon Landing following breakthrough Chang’e-3 mission success.

http://www.universetoday.com/107716/china-considers-manned-moon-landing-following-breakthrough-change-3-mission-success/
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 01/17/2014 03:20 AM
An important quote from the article.

Quote
“The manned lunar landing has not yet secured approval from the national level authorities, but the research and development work is going on,” said Zhang.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 01/22/2014 05:41 AM
a paper by Chinese researchers on one of the objects they have indicated as a possible target for their asteroid mission:
Shape, Thermal and Surface Properties determination of a Candidate Spacecraft Target Asteroid (175706) 1996 FG3
http://arxiv.org/abs/1401.5357
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: NovaSilisko on 01/23/2014 03:50 AM
I had not seen this pics before

http://bbs.miercn.com/201309/thread_224318_1_2.html


... is that first one from Moonbase Alpha? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonbase_Alpha_%28video_game%29)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Borklund on 01/23/2014 02:39 PM
I had not seen this pics before

http://bbs.miercn.com/201309/thread_224318_1_2.html


... is that first one from Moonbase Alpha? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonbase_Alpha_%28video_game%29)
It appears to be an amalgamation of a lander from somewhere, a 3D lunar landscape generated from LRO pictures and taikonauts (astronauts) from Moonbase Alpha, yes. Astounding.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: manboy on 01/25/2014 05:22 AM
I had not seen this pics before

http://bbs.miercn.com/201309/thread_224318_1_2.html
These are photoshopped U.S. concepts...
Yep. All they did was replace the American flags. (http://www.spaceflight.nasa.gov/gallery/images/mars/lunaractivities/html/s95_01563.html)

Even their old space station concept was stolen from an ISS promotional rendering.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: manboy on 01/25/2014 05:35 AM
I had not seen this pics before

http://bbs.miercn.com/201309/thread_224318_1_2.html


... is that first one from Moonbase Alpha? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonbase_Alpha_%28video_game%29)
It appears to be an amalgamation of a lander from somewhere, a 3D lunar landscape generated from LRO pictures and taikonauts (astronauts) from Moonbase Alpha, yes. Astounding.
Yep.

http://images.g4tv.com/ImageDb3/244022_l/moonbase-alpha-screenshots.jpg
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Lars_J on 01/25/2014 08:35 PM

I had not seen this pics before

http://bbs.miercn.com/201309/thread_224318_1_2.html
These are photoshopped U.S. concepts...
Yep. All they did was replace the American flags. (http://www.spaceflight.nasa.gov/gallery/images/mars/lunaractivities/html/s95_01563.html)

Even their old space station concept was stolen from an ISS promotional rendering.

Ha! That's funny.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: M129K on 01/25/2014 08:47 PM
I had not seen this pics before

http://bbs.miercn.com/201309/thread_224318_1_2.html
These are photoshopped U.S. concepts...
Yep. All they did was replace the American flags. (http://www.spaceflight.nasa.gov/gallery/images/mars/lunaractivities/html/s95_01563.html)

Even their old space station concept was stolen from an ISS promotional rendering.
It's not like they're trying to fight the stereotypes.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 02/02/2014 06:16 AM
At the International Space University Southern Hemisphere Summer Space Program being held here in Adelaide there are quite a few students from China who work in the Chinese space program. I got to talking with the Chinese person responsible for international collaboration in their crewed space program. Some of the answers I got were the following. This is from memory, so there might be some mistakes.

Tian Gong 2 will have only one docking port. They consider Tian Gong to be more of a space lab, then a space station. The large modular space station will have a different name. The main purpose of Tian Gong 2 will be to test the docking and fuel transfer of a supply vehicle. Longer crewed missions are expected, perhaps from one to three months. They are considering having Tian Gong 2 crewed for the supply vehicle docking, but there are safety risks involved as Shenzhou can't be docked at the same time.

For Shenzhou 10 last year there was a lot of discussion as to whether to fly the mission. They are happy they did so, as they learnt quite a few things.

If Chang'e 3 is successful, they won't fly Chang'e 4.

A decision for a Lunar crewed program won't be made until after the modular station has been built and been operating for a number of years. Perhaps a decision will be made in 2025 or 2030.

The European astronauts are learning Chinese. International astronauts are expected for the modular space station.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: simpl simon on 02/02/2014 06:41 AM
Thanks for the useful news, Steven - good work!

ESA and CNSA are indeed actively cooperating in the area of astronaut training. There have been reciprocal astronaut visits to training facilities.

Are any of the presentations being posted online, do you know, or can you obtain copies of them?

Can you find out anything more about the architecture of the modular space station? Do the Chinese expect each module to bring its own power supply, or will they provide a centralised power supply like the ISS USOS? How serious are the images of the station that have appeared online so far?

We hear a lot about international cooperation in the Chinese space station program but is anything really happening? Could you find out if the Chinese are planning a series of symposia to discuss international proposals for participation in the modular space station program?

By the way, following their success with Chang'e the Chinese are now taking an active role in ISECG discussions. The next ISECG meeting is planned for May in Beijing.

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phillip Clark on 02/02/2014 06:43 AM
Thank you for the above Steven.   There some very interesting things in there on both the manned and unmanned programmes.   Maybe if Yutu cannot be revived they will decide to fly Chang'e 4  to see if they can get a longer operating time on the Moon.   Also, a slight disappointment that the committment for a manned lunar programme seems to be a decade away.   But, things might change on that front.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: luhai167 on 02/02/2014 08:59 AM
I had not seen this pics before

http://bbs.miercn.com/201309/thread_224318_1_2.html
These are photoshopped U.S. concepts...
Yep. All they did was replace the American flags. (http://www.spaceflight.nasa.gov/gallery/images/mars/lunaractivities/html/s95_01563.html)

Even their old space station concept was stolen from an ISS promotional rendering.

considering miercn is the Chinese equivalent of strategypage, I'm not surprised.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: manboy on 02/03/2014 01:57 AM
I had not seen this pics before

http://bbs.miercn.com/201309/thread_224318_1_2.html
These are photoshopped U.S. concepts...
Yep. All they did was replace the American flags. (http://www.spaceflight.nasa.gov/gallery/images/mars/lunaractivities/html/s95_01563.html)

Even their old space station concept was stolen from an ISS promotional rendering.

considering miercn is the Chinese equivalent of strategypage, I'm not surprised.
It's also being used on CNSA's official website.

http://www.cmse.gov.cn/system/

http://en.cmse.gov.cn/list.php?catid=64
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 02/04/2014 08:30 AM

Are any of the presentations being posted online, do you know, or can you obtain copies of them?

That information came from questions I asked. There was no presentation.

Quote
Can you find out anything more about the architecture of the modular space station? Do the Chinese expect each module to bring its own power supply, or will they provide a centralised power supply like the ISS USOS? How serious are the images of the station that have appeared online so far?

We hear a lot about international cooperation in the Chinese space station program but is anything really happening? Could you find out if the Chinese are planning a series of symposia to discuss international proposals for participation in the modular space station program?

If I meet up again, I'll try to ask those questions.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 02/04/2014 08:52 PM
1-If Chang'e 3 is successful, they won't fly Chang'e 4.

2-A decision for a Lunar crewed program won't be made until after the modular station has been built and been operating for a number of years. Perhaps a decision will be made in 2025 or 2030.

3-The European astronauts are learning Chinese.

Thanks for that info. It makes quite a bit of sense, actually.

1-Surprising that they were not expecting to fly CE-4 no matter what. You'd think that they would want the experience. The more wheel turns that they can get on any planetary body, the better. Rover experience would set them up for an eventual Mars rover. With Yutu possibly out of commission, I would expect them to fly CE-4.

2-That's what I've always expected. They have been very consistent for a long time about their space station plans. It always made sense for them to start doing preliminary studies of rockets and architectures long in advance of any decision. And it makes sense for them to get one development project finished, and some experience under their belts, before making a decision about another one.

3-This is worth checking. What European astronauts? Those are questions to be posed to ESA ("Are any of your astronaut candidates learning Chinese?") I could see a Chinese official claiming this but it being more wishful thinking than something actively going on right now. Without any firm commitments to China, would it make sense to have people learning Chinese for a mission that couldn't really happen for another seven years or so?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Kryten on 02/04/2014 09:23 PM
3-This is worth checking. What European astronauts? Those are questions to be posed to ESA ("Are any of your astronaut candidates learning Chinese?") I could see a Chinese official claiming this but it being more wishful thinking than something actively going on right now. Without any firm commitments to China, would it make sense to have people learning Chinese for a mission that couldn't really happen for another seven years or so?
The claim's definitely factual given this article (http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/nov/17/britons-could-explore-deep-space#history-link-box) from late 2012;
Quote from: Jean-Jacques Dordain
There is not a single space power left in the world that thinks they can afford to send men and women to explore the moon or Mars on their own national budget. This is something that will have to be done by international co-operation. Even the Chinese, who have so far done it on their own, are looking for partners. We are in discussions with them. Some of our astronauts are learning Chinese and there are Chinese astronauts training at our centre in Germany. We have no concrete plans as yet but it is clear that future of manned space exploration lies with international co-operation.

but that's the full extent of the information on it I can find.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 02/05/2014 02:27 AM
Thanks for that.

I think it kinda highlights the fact that the United States isn't really pursuing a strategy when it comes to international cooperation. What is the US offering in the future that other countries want to be a part of? China can answer that question, but the United States cannot.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/05/2014 06:26 AM

1-Surprising that they were not expecting to fly CE-4 no matter what. You'd think that they would want the experience. The more wheel turns that they can get on any planetary body, the better. Rover experience would set them up for an eventual Mars rover. With Yutu possibly out of commission, I would expect them to fly CE-4.



Bit surprised here too.  Chang'e 1 was a success, but followed up by Chang'e 2 with a more ambitious mission profile.  the same pattern can be seen in their crewed missions also.

I would have thought that Chang'e 4 would at least go somewhere different, such as the highlands or even the poles, given that Chang'e 3 landed from what appears to have been a polar orbit.

Another rover is worth doing for its' own sake as well as providing experience that could be used for Mars and further confidence in the lander for the sample return missions. 
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 02/06/2014 02:23 AM

1-Surprising that they were not expecting to fly CE-4 no matter what. You'd think that they would want the experience. The more wheel turns that they can get on any planetary body, the better. Rover experience would set them up for an eventual Mars rover. With Yutu possibly out of commission, I would expect them to fly CE-4.



Bit surprised here too.  Chang'e 1 was a success, but followed up by Chang'e 2 with a more ambitious mission profile.  the same pattern can be seen in their crewed missions also.

I would have thought that Chang'e 4 would at least go somewhere different, such as the highlands or even the poles, given that Chang'e 3 landed from what appears to have been a polar orbit.

Another rover is worth doing for its' own sake as well as providing experience that could be used for Mars and further confidence in the lander for the sample return missions. 


Not to mention that it could form the basis for an interesting joint mission. One clever approach would be this:

-hold CE-4 (and its rover) in reserve
-fly CE-5 as a sample return mission

If CE-5 is successful, then reorient and redesign CE-6. Instead of having CE-6 take a sample at the landing site, have CE-6 land, then land CE-4 nearby, use the rover to scoop up material and deliver it to CE-6 for return to Earth.

That's the kind of thing that NASA is considering for Mars 2020 and Mars sample return. It would be an interesting and challenging mission for China to do on the Moon, but it would actually be a logical progression if they had success with CE-3 and CE-5.

Now I still think that the safe and wise engineering approach (no matter if CE-3 is a success or not) is to land CE-4 and operate it as much as possible and as long at possible. Get as many wheel turns as possible to understand that environment. But the scenario I outlined above would be both an engineering/operations challenge and scientifically productive. And it would do something that neither the US or Soviet Union has done before, using a rover to collect materials for sample return.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: vjkane on 02/06/2014 02:45 AM
One clever approach would be this:

-hold CE-4 (and its rover) in reserve
-fly CE-5 as a sample return mission

If CE-5 is successful, then reorient and redesign CE-6. Instead of having CE-6 take a sample at the landing site, have CE-6 land, then land CE-4 nearby, use the rover to scoop up material and deliver it to CE-6 for return to Earth.
Interesting idea, although the sample collection and storage system is non-trivial (as we'll learn in great detail from the Mars 2020 rover).  If the Chinese don't care if samples get jumbled and don't care about retaining stratigraphy, then the mechanism could be much simpler.

But an intriguing idea!
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: baldusi on 02/06/2014 12:33 PM
One clever approach would be this:

-hold CE-4 (and its rover) in reserve
-fly CE-5 as a sample return mission

If CE-5 is successful, then reorient and redesign CE-6. Instead of having CE-6 take a sample at the landing site, have CE-6 land, then land CE-4 nearby, use the rover to scoop up material and deliver it to CE-6 for return to Earth.
Interesting idea, although the sample collection and storage system is non-trivial (as we'll learn in great detail from the Mars 2020 rover).  If the Chinese don't care if samples get jumbled and don't care about retaining stratigraphy, then the mechanism could be much simpler.

But an intriguing idea!
Not to mention that they would need a lot of precision landing and probably a redesign of the communication structure. At least they would have to move some comm bands on at least one of the stacks. And probably would have to add a beacon to the one that lands first so the second can approach close enough.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 02/06/2014 03:17 PM
One clever approach would be this:

-hold CE-4 (and its rover) in reserve
-fly CE-5 as a sample return mission

If CE-5 is successful, then reorient and redesign CE-6. Instead of having CE-6 take a sample at the landing site, have CE-6 land, then land CE-4 nearby, use the rover to scoop up material and deliver it to CE-6 for return to Earth.
Interesting idea, although the sample collection and storage system is non-trivial (as we'll learn in great detail from the Mars 2020 rover).  If the Chinese don't care if samples get jumbled and don't care about retaining stratigraphy, then the mechanism could be much simpler.

But an intriguing idea!

I've communicated a lot with the MoonRise/Orion-MoonRise people. MoonRise has done a lot of work on collecting a sample and inserting it into the sample return vehicle (sample collector and SRV on the same lander). And because they have also looked at the AXEL rover, which can collect small samples, I presume that they have done some preliminary work with connecting the rover sample with the sample collector on the lander.

Certainly the issues you raise--precision landing near another lander (but not on top of it!), connecting the samples and interface issues, and separating out the comm channels--are real. Multiple spacecraft operations are also challenging. But compared to the challenges of landing, rover deployment, and rover operations, those are not nearly as big. I think China could do this, and if they did pull it off, it would be an impressive engineering achievement in robotic space exploration that nobody else has done.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: vjkane on 02/06/2014 03:29 PM
I think China could do this, and if they did pull it off, it would be an impressive engineering achievement in robotic space exploration that nobody else has done.
It would be a stupendous achievement. 

If they couldn't do a rover, the work on the South Pole-Aitken Basin sample return for the New Frontiers program shows the value of grab samples form a well selected site.  In fact, if NASA doesn't select the Aitken Basin sample return in the next New Frontiers selection, China could easily do this with Chang'e 6 (presuming they want to put Chang'e 5 on the near side for continuous communications).  From the press reports, the missions will have an orbiter that could serve as a comm relay from the far side.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 02/06/2014 04:14 PM
If they couldn't do a rover, the work on the South Pole-Aitken Basin sample return for the New Frontiers program shows the value of grab samples form a well selected site.  In fact, if NASA doesn't select the Aitken Basin sample return in the next New Frontiers selection, China could easily do this with Chang'e 6 (presuming they want to put Chang'e 5 on the near side for continuous communications).  From the press reports, the missions will have an orbiter that could serve as a comm relay from the far side.

Well, the MoonRise work at JPL for SPAB sample return is more than simply "grab" sampling. The arm has a kind of backhoe on it, scoops up material (cutting down into the surface) and deposits that in a sifter that takes out the small dust and the bigger pieces, getting the size material that they want. JPL did a lot of work to demonstrate that the collector would work, the sifter would work, and that they can then put the sample container into the ascent vehicle. I don't think that any of this work is particularly hard engineering, but you do want to get a sense that it will work before you build the equipment for your lander.

Now going through a relay orbiter adds complexity, because you only have limited windows for comm. It would require a certain amount of automation on the lander so that you use the comm windows for updates and to correct issues. But you're right that if China is designing a system that already has an orbiter, then they're already far along the path toward developing the capability to use it as a relay.

The NASA SPAB New Frontiers mission is not a particularly difficult mission. It is difficult to keep within a New Frontiers cost cap, but the engineering is straightforward. I am reminded once again of the fact that China has a working lunar lander and the United States has a bunch of lunar landing studies and some test hardware. If China wanted to do that South Pole Aitken Basin sample return mission (and they are willing to spend the money), they could do it, no question.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 02/07/2014 03:35 AM
Bit surprised here too.  Chang'e 1 was a success, but followed up by Chang'e 2 with a more ambitious mission profile.  the same pattern can be seen in their crewed missions also.

I has asked the Chinese delegate this. Chang'e 2 was not considered the same as Chang'e 1, as it demonstrated the mission profile to be used on later missions.

I met with the China Manned Space Agency (CMSA) delegate again yesterday who works in the International Cooperation Bureau. Here are some answers I got from him. Again, this is from memory, so it may contain errors.

The modular space station will be three modules like that shown previously. There will be a main module and two side modules with solar panels on the end. The design is currently being finalised. Each side module will first dock with the front axial port. Then a robotic arm (not as big as the ISS arm) will transfer the module to a side docking port. The docking mechanism will be closer to the Russian design and won't be compatible with the International Docking Standard (IDS). The Chinese have looked at IDS and consider it to be something they could build.

The CMSA is currently in discussion with ESA in three main areas. 1) Flying ESA astronauts to the station, 2) Providing either an ATV for supplies or a module and 3) providing experiments. They have visited Canada and looked at their arm technology, but won't be using a Canadian arm. The Italians showed the Chinese their Cupola, but they won't be using this initially. Maybe at a later date. The Swiss are looking to provide an astronomical payload.

Tian Gong 2 is planned for a launch in 2015 and the supply module in 2016. The supply module will be closer in design to Tian Gong. To communicate with Tian Gong 1, the Chinese contracted a Swedish company to install a dish near Perth in Western Australia.

The delegate was disappointed that there were no representatives from any space agencies at the International Space University Southern Hemisphere Summer Space Program (SHSSP). I have the delegate's business card, so if you are from a space agency and would like to cooperate in their manned space program, please contact me by email and I will pass on his details.

He also said that he would be happy to answer any questions I have about their manned program. He said it may take a few days to get a reply using his email address though.

The SHSSP closing ceremony is this afternoon. The next session is expected to be in South Africa in one years time, but this has not yet been finalised.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Lsquirrel on 02/07/2014 08:11 AM
At the International Space University Southern Hemisphere Summer Space Program being held here in Adelaide there are quite a few students from China who work in the Chinese space program. I got to talking with the Chinese person responsible for international collaboration in their crewed space program. Some of the answers I got were the following. This is from memory, so there might be some mistakes.

Tian Gong 2 will have only one docking port. They consider Tian Gong to be more of a space lab, then a space station. The large modular space station will have a different name. The main purpose of Tian Gong 2 will be to test the docking and fuel transfer of a supply vehicle. Longer crewed missions are expected, perhaps from one to three months. They are considering having Tian Gong 2 crewed for the supply vehicle docking, but there are safety risks involved as Shenzhou can't be docked at the same time.

For Shenzhou 10 last year there was a lot of discussion as to whether to fly the mission. They are happy they did so, as they learnt quite a few things.

If Chang'e 3 is successful, they won't fly Chang'e 4.

A decision for a Lunar crewed program won't be made until after the modular station has been built and been operating for a number of years. Perhaps a decision will be made in 2025 or 2030.

The European astronauts are learning Chinese. International astronauts are expected for the modular space station.

According to Chang'e-1 Chief Designer Ye Pei Jian,Chang'e 4 will be launched in 2015,while a skip reentry demo probe will be launched in 2014.
the skip reentry experiment  will be a pathfinder of Chang'e-5.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Lsquirrel on 02/07/2014 08:24 AM

1-Surprising that they were not expecting to fly CE-4 no matter what. You'd think that they would want the experience. The more wheel turns that they can get on any planetary body, the better. Rover experience would set them up for an eventual Mars rover. With Yutu possibly out of commission, I would expect them to fly CE-4.



Bit surprised here too.  Chang'e 1 was a success, but followed up by Chang'e 2 with a more ambitious mission profile.  the same pattern can be seen in their crewed missions also.

I would have thought that Chang'e 4 would at least go somewhere different, such as the highlands or even the poles, given that Chang'e 3 landed from what appears to have been a polar orbit.

Another rover is worth doing for its' own sake as well as providing experience that could be used for Mars and further confidence in the lander for the sample return missions. 


Not to mention that it could form the basis for an interesting joint mission. One clever approach would be this:

-hold CE-4 (and its rover) in reserve
-fly CE-5 as a sample return mission

If CE-5 is successful, then reorient and redesign CE-6. Instead of having CE-6 take a sample at the landing site, have CE-6 land, then land CE-4 nearby, use the rover to scoop up material and deliver it to CE-6 for return to Earth.

That's the kind of thing that NASA is considering for Mars 2020 and Mars sample return. It would be an interesting and challenging mission for China to do on the Moon, but it would actually be a logical progression if they had success with CE-3 and CE-5.

Now I still think that the safe and wise engineering approach (no matter if CE-3 is a success or not) is to land CE-4 and operate it as much as possible and as long at possible. Get as many wheel turns as possible to understand that environment. But the scenario I outlined above would be both an engineering/operations challenge and scientifically productive. And it would do something that neither the US or Soviet Union has done before, using a rover to collect materials for sample return.

Using a Rover to collect materials is too ambitious to chinese engineer, so we have choosen a less challenge mission, using a Lander to dig luna soil, which will be found in Chang'e-4
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: baldusi on 02/07/2014 10:51 AM
Steven, was any CONAE representative around?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Lsquirrel on 02/07/2014 12:21 PM
Thanks for the useful news, Steven - good work!

ESA and CNSA are indeed actively cooperating in the area of astronaut training. There have been reciprocal astronaut visits to training facilities.

Are any of the presentations being posted online, do you know, or can you obtain copies of them?

Can you find out anything more about the architecture of the modular space station? Do the Chinese expect each module to bring its own power supply, or will they provide a centralised power supply like the ISS USOS? How serious are the images of the station that have appeared online so far?

We hear a lot about international cooperation in the Chinese space station program but is anything really happening? Could you find out if the Chinese are planning a series of symposia to discuss international proposals for participation in the modular space station program?

By the way, following their success with Chang'e the Chinese are now taking an active role in ISECG discussions. The next ISECG meeting is planned for May in Beijing.

I have download some presentions:

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: baldusi on 02/07/2014 01:22 PM
Thank you for those presentations! I've a few questions:
1) They talk about international cooperation and rescue ops, but they won't move the orbital plane from ~42deg. This basically leaves out Russian launchers and crafts (Progress might work from CSG, but Soyuz can't). And the plane change makes it inaccessible to the ISS. So the Russians can't launch a Soyuz to rescue the Chinese, and only the Chinese could launch to the ISS. But they've stated that they won't be IDSS compliant. So, much talk about possibilities but the technical decisions speak differently.
2) They stated that the zenith and nadir ports of the node are reserved for international modules, but then they show the nadir port used during hand-off. And it would only make sense that they would want at least a spare docking port for all manned operations, which would imply at least 3 ports dedicated to manned docking.
3) Btw, the pictures describe the Robotic Arm 1 on the Zenit port of Node. Will it be able to move a module docked on Aft(?) to the Nadir port?
4) I see the Lab 1 will have an airlock. Will the Shenzhou orbital module be used as a contingency EVA port?
5) The Robotic Arm 2 on Lab 1 is to deploy experiments from the local airlock? Am I to assume that it will host the external experiments attachments?
6) Is it being designed with only contingency EVAs in mind? I find the lack of actual EVA experience in the manned program quite puzzling.
7) Am I correct in understanding, since they said that the space station projects was "approved" only by 2010, that when they mean "approved" they mean something like authorizing the actual project, and not about preliminary designs or experiments?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 02/07/2014 08:57 PM
Using a Rover to collect materials is too ambitious to chinese engineer, so we have choosen a less challenge mission, using a Lander to dig luna soil, which will be found in Chang'e-4

My point was that if they have a successful CE-5 mission, using a lander to dig and return lunar soil, then a logical step would be to use a rover to dig up soil and take it to CE-6. You could have a logical development building on the success of each mission.

My guess is that China will now fly CE-4 with a rover to try and get experience because they did not have a fully successful CE-3. But the sequence I proposed seems to me to be within China's capabilities. China has already done the hard things: landing a vehicle, deploying a rover. The next hard thing to do is sample return and orbital rendezvous. But some of the rendezvous technology has already been developed in Earth orbit.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/07/2014 11:02 PM
To justify a sample collection rover you will need a reasonable traverse capability to be able to sample different units, probably at least 10 km, and of course to drive to the sample return system.
.
I also wonder at the mass of the sample collection mechanism and the storage system.  Yutu is a fairly small rover.  They could leave off the GPR perhaps.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: MATTBLAK on 02/07/2014 11:10 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again - I'm full of admiration for their efforts. GO CHINA!! :)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 02/07/2014 11:12 PM
To justify a sample collection rover you will need a reasonable traverse capability to be able to sample different units, probably at least 10 km, and of course to drive to the sample return system.

Not really. A rover is just a way of moving around your instruments. Ideally you want to be able to move them far, but one thing that bothered the Viking scientists in the 1970s was that they could see interesting rocks just a few meters away and could not reach them. A rover allows you to travel to the interesting stuff. Hopefully you have already landed near the interesting stuff.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: vjkane on 02/07/2014 11:35 PM
An operationally simpler method would be for the sample return lander to bring the rover with it.  Chang'e 5 might just use a scoop while Chang'e 6 might also carry a small rover.

I suspect, though, that these design decisions with mass allocations have already been made.

I have worried about the lack of a small rover on the proposed New Frontiers sample return missions for the reasons Blackstar mentions.   
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/08/2014 01:36 AM
To justify a sample collection rover you will need a reasonable traverse capability to be able to sample different units, probably at least 10 km, and of course to drive to the sample return system.

Not really. A rover is just a way of moving around your instruments. Ideally you want to be able to move them far, but one thing that bothered the Viking scientists in the 1970s was that they could see interesting rocks just a few meters away and could not reach them. A rover allows you to travel to the interesting stuff. Hopefully you have already landed near the interesting stuff.

The Moon is different though.  Run a sieve through the regolith and you will get a representative sampling of the local bedrock and a proportion (~10% from memory) of more distant material as well.  For for example samples of mare regolith will contain fragments of highland crust from 100s of km away.  This is through impact gardening, which is why geological boundaries are smeared out over 100 m of more, and why actual outcrop is very rare.

The combined sieve and scoop is conceptually a descendent of the rake used on Apollo 15-17 http://airandspace.si.edu/collections/artifact.cfm?object=nasm_A19781497000

I suspect that the Viking scientists had a conceptual model for the martian regolith that was essentially lunar when they designed their sampling system.   Not unreasonable, given the Moon like concepts of the martian surface prevalent when the hardware was being designed. But the only rocks within reach of both Vikings turned out to be indurated soils. Impact gardening does not happen on Mars to anywhere near the same extent due to higher gravity, lower small impact cratering rates, and higher erosion and weathering rates. 

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 02/08/2014 02:10 AM
Steven, was any CONAE representative around?

No. There was one person from Brazil.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 02/08/2014 02:21 AM
1-An operationally simpler method would be for the sample return lander to bring the rover with it.  Chang'e 5 might just use a scoop while Chang'e 6 might also carry a small rover.

I suspect, though, that these design decisions with mass allocations have already been made.

2-I have worried about the lack of a small rover on the proposed New Frontiers sample return missions for the reasons Blackstar mentions.   

1-Yes.

2-JPL has evaluated the possibility of the AXEL rover on their MoonRise proposal. When I talked to the MoonRise PI he did not think it was included, and it is certainly not necessary from a mission point of view. However, the JPL program manager indicated that they had mass budget to carry one. And the company that does sampling devices (I think it is Honeybee?) has actually tested a small sampler for AXEL. It is a little short drill that pokes out of the side of the wheel and gathers a small sample. Of course, getting that back to the sample canister is going to pose some design challenges. But I don't really think it is necessary, at least not for the SPAB mission. I think JPL has only included provisions in case somebody gives them a thumbs up and can come up with a good reason for it.

Personally, if a SPAB lander had extra mass, I would rather see it carry a seismometer, but that would probably make little sense because the SPAB mission only has to operate for a short period of time, whereas a seismometer requires a long-term power source, and that would completely change the mission.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 02/08/2014 07:13 AM
the latest issue of Scientia Sinica Technologica has several technical papers in Chinese on rendezvous and docking techniques as well as a paper on the use of finite elements for launch vehicle structural dynamics

http://tech.scichina.com:8082/sciE/CN/volumn/volumn_6804.shtml
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 02/10/2014 07:42 AM
it looks like the Chinese are seriously thinking about a comet flyby mission to Wirtanen in 2018. this was proposed by Richard Farquhar at the latest IAC as a joint US-China mission, where the US would contribute the old ICE spacecraft. whether this kind of cooperation was really possible is not clear, but in any case it looks like NASA no longer has the hardware to communicate with the probe.

http://www.dost.moe.edu.cn/dostplan/jyjl/20130816155543

Google translation:
Quote
  6. Sino-US joint deep space exploration - comet "Wo Tanan" exploration program
    Project Source: Collaborative units to implement the project.
    Total funding: 2.5 million.
    The key breakthroughs in core technologies proposed: deep space exploration technology in general, autonomous navigation and control technology, deep space communications and control technology, efficient energy and propulsion technology, advanced load technology.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: vjkane on 02/10/2014 02:17 PM
6. Sino-US joint deep space exploration - comet "Wo Tanan" exploration program
 

I've not heard anything about a US mission to this comet.  Has anyone else?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 02/10/2014 02:22 PM
I've not heard anything about a US mission to this comet.  Has anyone else?

it was a mission proposed a year ago by Robert Farquhar. China would provide a flyby craft, while the US would retarget ICE to fly through the tail of the comet.
see http://www.bis-space.com/2012/11/29/7813/bis-prestige-lecture-teaching-old-spacecraft-new-tricks and this paper: http://www.iafastro.net/iac/paper/id/16371/summary.lite/
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Websorber on 02/19/2014 09:23 AM
China’s counter-space capabilities

Interesting article on armscontrolwonk

http://krepon.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/4043/avoiding-scrapes-with-china#more-4203 (http://krepon.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/4043/avoiding-scrapes-with-china#more-4203)



Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 02/19/2014 02:43 PM
Attached is a 4-page summary of the hearing on “the People’s Republic of China’s Counterspace Program and the Implications for U.S. National Security.”
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: JosephB on 02/19/2014 03:17 PM
Those last two key points are telling.
The last one was bit of a surprise.

 Witnesses disagreed on the level of value that diplomatic tools such as “rules of the road” or a “code of conduct” played in a U.S. multi-layered strategy.
 There is less communication between the U.S. and China on space-related issues than there was between the former Soviet Union and the United States on space matters during the Cold War.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 02/19/2014 04:38 PM
Those last two key points are telling.

 Witnesses disagreed on the level of value that diplomatic tools such as “rules of the road” or a “code of conduct” played in a U.S. multi-layered strategy.

Not a surprise if you follow the "code of conduct" debate (which, I'll admit, is pretty boring and so you cannot be blamed for not following it). Read some of Michael Listner's articles on The Space Review. There's a question about the value of these provisions. There's also concern that even if they are "voluntary," in the West they will end up enshrined in law and/or policy, whereas they won't be by China.

From what little I know or understand of this, I think there's a little bit of bunk behind that argument. One could establish the code of conduct unilaterally and then encourage others to do so. And there are already things that happen this way, such as the U.S. requiring space debris minimization provisions (for example: you cannot launch a satellite out of the U.S.--getting a launch license--without having a demonstrated plan for minimizing debris).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 02/22/2014 03:45 AM
This was shown, presumably by the Chinese students, at the International Space University Southern Hemisphere Summer Space Program held here in Adelaide a few weeks ago. Note that there is no official cooperation between the US and China on a Lunar landing.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: simpl simon on 02/22/2014 11:19 AM
Thanks for the image, Steven, and thanks also for your feedback on the Chinese Space Station earlier this month.

I find it ironic that images like the one above are only possible with the degree of realism that they convey because the original pictures of the U.S. flag on the lunar surface 45 years ago are available for manipulation.

I would have more respect for the Chinese efforts if they simply put humans on the Moon rather than spending their time playing around with the NASA pictures.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 02/22/2014 03:14 PM
Well, to be fair, this was probably produced by some students. I don't think we should consider photoshoppery to be official government policy.

I've been impressed with China's human spaceflight activities, but also frustrated at their pace. They take big strides, but very few of them. And I think that has finally sunk in. If anybody can remember back to the distant year of 2000, there was all kinds of speculation about China's human spaceflight program. People thought that they were about to burst out with all kinds of activity. And there were news articles about every six months or so where people ominously warned that China was going to land humans on the Moon by 2017, or even--GASP!--2010!

By the middle of the decade the Chinese started talking publicly about their plans: gradual steps to a space station by 2020. And at least initially it was popular for some of the hyperventilating types to say "They're all commies, you cannot trust anything they say." But we've now seen that China has essentially been carrying out the plans that they publicly revealed back around 2005/6.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 03/01/2014 07:27 AM
the latest issue of Scientia Sinica Technologica has several technical papers in Chinese on rendezvous and docking techniques as well as a paper on the use of finite elements for launch vehicle structural dynamics

http://tech.scichina.com:8082/sciE/CN/volumn/volumn_6804.shtml


and the latest has a series of papers on Tiangong
http://tech.scichina.com:8082/sciE/CN/volumn/volumn_6819.shtml
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: RonM on 03/06/2014 02:40 AM
Here's something interesting from Xinhua:

"China has no lunar base project: leading scientist"

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/sci/2014-03/01/c_133152009.htm (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/sci/2014-03/01/c_133152009.htm)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: luhai167 on 03/06/2014 06:32 AM
That statement is more or less inline with the MIIT white paper in 2009.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=26848.msg1128077#msg1128077
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Websorber on 03/07/2014 07:06 AM
The "masters" behind China's lunar rover Jade Rabbit

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Feature_The_masters_behind_Chinas_lunar_rover_Jade_Rabbit_999.html (http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Feature_The_masters_behind_Chinas_lunar_rover_Jade_Rabbit_999.html)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 03/07/2014 08:17 AM
there is a good interview to the director of the Chinese National Space Science Centre on the Nature website:

http://www.nature.com/news/head-of-china-s-space-science-reaches-out-1.14797
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 03/10/2014 06:02 PM
From Xinhua: China Focus: "Space Odyssey": China' s aspiration in future space exploration (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/special/2014-03/10/c_133175654.htm).


"We plan to send a manned mission to the moon. The Earth is our cradle, and humanity will go out from here someday. The moon is the nearest: if we cannot land on it, where else can we go?", Ye Peijia, a top scientist with the Chang'e-3 lunar probe mission.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 03/22/2014 09:19 AM
and more goodies (in Chinese) on TG-1 and Shenzhou in the latest Scientia Sinica Technologica
http://tech.scichina.com:8082/sciE/CN/volumn/volumn_6832.shtml
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: input~2 on 05/21/2014 08:34 PM
"China aids in cutting down space debris"
http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2014-05/13/content_17503167.htm

Quote
A surveillance and early warning system has taken shape
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: simonbp on 05/21/2014 08:50 PM
"China aids in cutting down space debris"
http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2014-05/13/content_17503167.htm

Quote
A surveillance and early warning system has taken shape

Considering that China made a large fraction of that debris with their anti-satellite test, one would hope so...
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 06/18/2014 05:57 PM
Bolivia receives China's bidding to build satellite (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-06/06/c_133388049.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Sean Lynch on 06/24/2014 09:17 AM
The good news is that Rep Wolf (R-VA) is retiring. I live in his district (VA 10th congressional district).
He's been the primary antagonist to cooperating with China in space citing human rights violations. Its a religious thing for him, (while at the same time Wolf is supporting massive increases in prisons and the war on drugs).
Anyway, perhaps we can stop trying to legislate morality and get on with some science and peaceful cooperation in space with China once Wolf is out of the picture.
There's hope for cooperation in the future.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Star One on 06/24/2014 02:05 PM

The good news is that Rep Wolf (R-VA) is retiring. I live in his district (VA 10th congressional district).
He's been the primary antagonist to cooperating with China in space citing human rights violations. Its a religious thing for him, (while at the same time Wolf is supporting massive increases in prisons and the war on drugs).
Anyway, perhaps we can stop trying to legislate morality and get on with some science and peaceful cooperation in space with China once Wolf is out of the picture.
There's hope for cooperation in the future.

I really doubt his retirement will make much difference as there are plenty more of a similar way of thinking.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 06/24/2014 07:27 PM
yet another issue of Scientia Sinica Technologica with a lot of papers on CE- and the lunar exploration program
http://tech.scichina.com:8082/sciE/CN/volumn/volumn_6889.shtml
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 07/19/2014 06:09 PM
China and Brazil have agreed to build CBERS-4A after a brazilian proposal. http://brazilianspace.blogspot.pt/2014/07/chineses-aceitam-proposta-brasileira-de.html (in Portuguese).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 07/21/2014 08:30 AM
Thanks. That article says that CBERS 4 is scheduled for 7 December this year. No mention on when CBERS 4A would be launched.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 08/27/2014 05:06 AM
An unusual Chinese proposal for an Earth-imaging Synthetic Aperture Radar based on the Moon
http://earth.scichina.com:8080/sciDe/EN/abstract/abstract514540.shtml
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 09/13/2014 08:11 PM
From Xinhua, China in cooperation with other countries in manned space program (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/sci/2014-09/10/c_133633557.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 09/30/2014 09:50 PM
From Xinhua, China Exclusive: Mars: China's next goal? (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-09/25/c_133671880.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 10/02/2014 09:15 AM
the latest issue of the Chinese Journal of Space Science includes a review paper of the Chang'e program from CE-1 to CE-3:
Scientific Progress in China’s Lunar Exploration Program (http://www.cjss.ac.cn/EN/abstract/abstract2063.shtml)
as well as a roadmap for solar system exploration up to 2030 (Mars and Venus missions, a Jupiter orbiter, NEO missions and a Ceres sample return):
China’s Deep-space Exploration to 2030 (http://www.cjss.ac.cn/EN/abstract/abstract2061.shtml)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 10/02/2014 11:24 PM
the latest issue of the Chinese Journal of Space Science includes a review paper of the Chang'e program from CE-1 to CE-3:
Scientific Progress in China’s Lunar Exploration Program (http://www.cjss.ac.cn/EN/abstract/abstract2063.shtml)
as well as a roadmap for solar system exploration up to 2030 (Mars and Venus missions, a Jupiter orbiter, NEO missions and a Ceres sample return):
China’s Deep-space Exploration to 2030 (http://www.cjss.ac.cn/EN/abstract/abstract2061.shtml)

That second one is so broad that it says almost nothing. Their objective with scientific exploration of Mars is to research the water, soil and life questions? You don't say...
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 10/03/2014 05:08 AM
the same issue has several review papers on many aspects of Chinese space science
http://www.cjss.ac.cn/EN/volumn/volumn_1290.shtml
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 10/03/2014 06:03 AM
Thanks plutogno. Of the 10 missions mentioned, only one is new to me. This is the Solar Storms Panoramic Observer in the third stage. Summarising:

Stage 1
1) Mars Global Remote Sensing Orbiter and Small Rover
2) Near-Earth Asteroid Multi-Target Detection
3) Sun Fixed-Point Observation.

Stage 2 (Further Promotion)
1) Venus Exploration Orbiter
2) Mars Lander and Rover
3) Solar Polar Orbit Observer
4) Main-Belt Asteroid (Ceres) Sample Return.

Stage 3 (Sustainable Development)
1) Jupiter Orbiter
2) Mars Sample Return
3) Solar Storms Panoramic Observer.

Can anyone post these papers? The download cuts out on me after a few hundred kilobytes:

Strategic Priority Program on Space Science
http://www.cjss.ac.cn/EN/article/downloadArticleFile.do?attachType=PDF&id=2060

Science Researches of Chinese Manned Space Flight
http://www.cjss.ac.cn/EN/article/downloadArticleFile.do?attachType=PDF&id=2062

Scientific Progress in China’s Lunar Exploration Program
http://www.cjss.ac.cn/EN/article/downloadArticleFile.do?attachType=PDF&id=2063
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: limen4 on 10/03/2014 11:20 AM

Can anyone post these papers? The download cuts out on me after a few hundred kilobytes:

Strategic Priority Program on Space Science
http://www.cjss.ac.cn/EN/article/downloadArticleFile.do?attachType=PDF&id=2060

Science Researches of Chinese Manned Space Flight
http://www.cjss.ac.cn/EN/article/downloadArticleFile.do?attachType=PDF&id=2062

Scientific Progress in China’s Lunar Exploration Program
http://www.cjss.ac.cn/EN/article/downloadArticleFile.do?attachType=PDF&id=2063
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Nordren on 10/03/2014 11:54 AM

Can anyone post these papers? The download cuts out on me after a few hundred kilobytes:

Strategic Priority Program on Space Science
http://www.cjss.ac.cn/EN/article/downloadArticleFile.do?attachType=PDF&id=2060

Science Researches of Chinese Manned Space Flight
http://www.cjss.ac.cn/EN/article/downloadArticleFile.do?attachType=PDF&id=2062

Scientific Progress in China’s Lunar Exploration Program
http://www.cjss.ac.cn/EN/article/downloadArticleFile.do?attachType=PDF&id=2063

Thanks! I was also having trouble with the Strategic Priority paper.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: GClark on 10/03/2014 12:40 PM
Thanks plutogno. Of the 10 missions mentioned, only one is new to me. This is the Solar Storms Panoramic Observer in the third stage. Summarising:

Stage 1
1) Mars Global Remote Sensing Orbiter and Small Rover
2) Near-Earth Asteroid Multi-Target Detection
3) Sun Fixed-Point Observation.

Stage 2 (Further Promotion)
1) Venus Exploration Orbiter
2) Mars Lander and Rover
3) Solar Polar Orbit Observer
4) Main-Belt Asteroid (Ceres) Sample Return.

Stage 3 (Sustainable Development)
1) Jupiter Orbiter
2) Mars Sample Return
3) Solar Storms Panoramic Observer.

The way I read that article, they were discussing a proposed roadmap for future exploration.  Those were just mission concepts at best.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 10/04/2014 02:20 AM
Thanks limen4! That's much appreciated.

The way I read that article, they were discussing a proposed roadmap for future exploration.  Those were just mission concepts at best.

That's right, but the first nine missions matches exactly what has been previously proposed and posted in the Chinese launch manifest here. I think its a good bet that China will be following this plan closely.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 10/05/2014 03:42 AM
I just finished reading the three papers. The Human Science paper gives the following launch dates.

2015 Tiangong 2
2016 Tianzhou 1 (six months after Tiangong 2)
2018 Tiangong Core Module
2020 Tiangong Experiment Module 1
2022 Tiangong Experiment Module 2

The Science paper gives lots of new information, including details on eight new missions! No launch dates though.

Twelfth Five Year Plan (2011-2015)
HXMT (Hard X-ray Modulation Telescope), 2700 kg mass, CZ-4B launch vehicle, 43° inclination, 550 km altitude, 4 year lifetime

QUESS (Quantum Experiments at Space Scale), CZ-2D launch vehicle, sun-synchronous orbit, 97.79° inclination, 600 km altitude, 2 year lifetime

DAMPE (Dark Matter Particle Explorer), 1900 kg mass, CZ-2D launch vehicle, sun-synchronous orbit, 97.4° inclination, 500 km altitude, 3 year lifetime

SJ-10 (Shijian Recoverable Satellite), 3600 kg mass, CZ-2D launch vehicle, 63° inclination, 220x482 km altitude, 15 day lifetime

Kuafu A, located at Sun-Earth L1
Kuafu B1 and Kuafu B2, international partners being sought

Intensive Study of Future Space Science Missions
Thirteenth Five Year Plan (2016-2020)

First Batch
SPORT (Solar Polar Orbit Telescope)
MIT (Magnetosphere Ionosphere Themosphere Coupling Exploration)
XTP (X-Ray Timing and Polarisation Mission)
SVLBI (Space Millimitre VLBI Array)

Second Batch
STEP (Search for Terrestrial Exoplanets)
ASO-S (Advanced Space Borne Solar Observatory)
EP (Einstein Probe)
WCOM (Water Cycle Observation Mission)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 10/05/2014 03:58 AM
I'm still having problems downloading those Chinese papers. Could someone post these papers please?

Status of the Hard X-ray Modulation Telescope Project
http://www.cjss.ac.cn/EN/article/downloadArticleFile.do?attachType=PDF&id=2065

Quantum Science Satellite
http://www.cjss.ac.cn/EN/article/downloadArticleFile.do?attachType=PDF&id=2066

Dark Matter Particle Explorer:The First Chinese Cosmic Ray and Hard γ-ray Detector in Space
http://www.cjss.ac.cn/EN/article/downloadArticleFile.do?attachType=PDF&id=2067

The Experimental Satellite on Electromagnetism Monitoring
http://www.cjss.ac.cn/EN/article/downloadArticleFile.do?attachType=PDF&id=2068
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 10/05/2014 11:02 AM
I'm still having problems downloading those Chinese papers. Could someone post these papers please?



Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 10/06/2014 05:24 AM
Thanks very much Rui!
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 10/06/2014 11:21 AM
From Xinhua, China to help Venezuela launch third satellite (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-10/06/c_133695365.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: input~2 on 10/06/2014 08:10 PM
From Xinhua, China to help Venezuela launch third satellite (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-10/06/c_133695365.htm).

It will be a new remote sensing satellite VRSS2 (aka "Antonio José de Sucre")
source: http://www.finanzasdigital.com/2014/10/se-inicia-construccion-del-tercer-satelite-venezolano-el-antonio-jose-de-sucre/ (http://www.finanzasdigital.com/2014/10/se-inicia-construccion-del-tercer-satelite-venezolano-el-antonio-jose-de-sucre/)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 10/16/2014 01:26 PM
From Xinhua, Chinese scientist proposes new scientific satellites (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-10/15/c_133719365.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 10/18/2014 10:23 AM
on Chinese microgravity research (on Shenzhou 8 in particular): Effects of spaceflight and simulated microgravity on cell sub-microstructure and antioxidant enzyme activity in tomato
http://tech.scichina.com:8082/sciEe/EN/abstract/abstract515744.shtml
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Lsquirrel on 10/21/2014 02:05 PM
http://www.iafastro.net/download/congress/IAC-14/DVD/full/IAC-14/D2/1/manuscripts/IAC-14,D2,1,11,x20929.pdf
the new generation launch vehicles in China

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 10/22/2014 10:09 AM
That 13 t into GTO is pretty impressive. That's 30% more than Ariane 5. That might be enough to send Shenzhou at 7.84 t around the Moon. They also mention an LM-Heavy!

"A more powerful launch vehicle LM-heavy is under studying now, together with the new generation launch vehicle, they will remarkably improve the into space capability of China."
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phillip Clark on 10/22/2014 12:37 PM
My 2004 JBIS analysis of the CZ-5 programme showed that what we now call the CZ-7 with four strap-on boosters could also launch a full Shenzhou around the Moon like Zond/L-1, but with the forward orbital module retained.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Lsquirrel on 10/24/2014 03:53 AM
That 13 t into GTO is pretty impressive. That's 30% more than Ariane 5. That might be enough to send Shenzhou at 7.84 t around the Moon. They also mention an LM-Heavy!

"A more powerful launch vehicle LM-heavy is under studying now, together with the new generation launch vehicle, they will remarkably improve the into space capability of China."
LM-5's LTO capability is 8.2 tonnes,  it can send a Shenzhou into LTO around the Moon.
it's original capability is 14 tonnes into GTO, so 13 tonnes GTO is surprisingly. Even if LM5 configuration is LM5B + CZ-3A 3rd stage, it's LTO might be 14 tonnes, it bothers me
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Lars-J on 10/25/2014 12:27 AM
http://www.iafastro.net/download/congress/IAC-14/DVD/full/IAC-14/D2/1/manuscripts/IAC-14,D2,1,11,x20929.pdf
the new generation launch vehicles in China

Long March 5 images from the PDF:
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Robotbeat on 10/25/2014 03:56 AM
Hydrolox for core and upper stages, kerolox for boosters. Very good choices if you have access to both technologies.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 10/26/2014 07:55 PM
Hydrolox for core and upper stages, kerolox for boosters. Very good choices if you have access to both technologies.

Which of course China has.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: vulture4 on 10/27/2014 12:47 PM
Is this the first time an umbilical tower has been mounted on the mobile launch platform? That adds considerable weight to the platform; I wonder why the change was made. Possibly the desire to avoid mating umbilicals on the pad? Is the platform moved on rails or road tires?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: baldusi on 10/27/2014 01:13 PM
http://www.iafastro.net/download/congress/IAC-14/DVD/full/IAC-14/D2/1/manuscripts/IAC-14,D2,1,11,x20929.pdf
the new generation launch vehicles in China

Long March 5 images from the PDF:
From the launch tracks image, the LEO appears to be around 38/9 degrees launch azimuth. The Tiangong was launched at a 42.7 inclination orbit, which would be 38.79deg launch azimuth. An ISS orbit (51.6) launch azimuth would be roughly 48.7deg. Such Azimuth would go right through the middle of the Philippine island of Palawan. Thus, we can assume that they are planing the space station on the same orbit of Tiangong. Which is logical since it would allow them to reach it from at least two of their launch sites. But would preclude any sort of use as safe haven for either station.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Nighthawk on 10/27/2014 03:58 PM
Is this the first time an umbilical tower has been mounted on the mobile launch platform? That adds considerable weight to the platform; I wonder why the change was made. Possibly the desire to avoid mating umbilicals on the pad? Is the platform moved on rails or road tires?
It's based on rail.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: russianhalo117 on 10/27/2014 11:23 PM
Is this the first time an umbilical tower has been mounted on the mobile launch platform? That adds considerable weight to the platform; I wonder why the change was made. Possibly the desire to avoid mating umbilicals on the pad? Is the platform moved on rails or road tires?
Looking at the HSLC (WSLC) construction photos its transferred via rail. There is road down the center like Arianespace's ELA-2 and ELA-3
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: russianhalo117 on 10/27/2014 11:31 PM
http://www.iafastro.net/download/congress/IAC-14/DVD/full/IAC-14/D2/1/manuscripts/IAC-14,D2,1,11,x20929.pdf
the new generation launch vehicles in China

Long March 5 images from the PDF:
From the launch tracks image, the LEO appears to be around 38/9 degrees launch azimuth. The Tiangong was launched at a 42.7 inclination orbit, which would be 38.79deg launch azimuth. An ISS orbit (51.6) launch azimuth would be roughly 48.7deg. Such Azimuth would go right through the middle of the Philippine island of Palawan. Thus, we can assume that they are planing the space station on the same orbit of Tiangong. Which is logical since it would allow them to reach it from at least two of their launch sites. But would preclude any sort of use as safe haven for either station.
Well yes, unless China continues to employ its military and expansion muscles like the the Americans and Japanese did previously.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: luhai167 on 10/29/2014 02:24 AM
Hydrolox for core and upper stages, kerolox for boosters. Very good choices if you have access to both technologies.

Which of course China has.

Well, kerolox is still under development which LM5/LM7 will be the first rocket for it. Hydrolox through was in use exactly 30 years ago on LM3.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 11/01/2014 08:29 AM
China pulls plug on solar observatory
http://news.sciencemag.org/asiapacific/2014/10/china-pulls-plug-solar-observatory?rss=1
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phillip Clark on 11/01/2014 08:55 AM
China pulls plug on solar observatory
http://news.sciencemag.org/asiapacific/2014/10/china-pulls-plug-solar-observatory?rss=1

It just shows that you cannot trust international "collaborators".
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 11/04/2014 09:15 PM
From Xinhua, Mars rover draws attention at 2014 China Int'l Industry Fair in Shanghai (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/photo/2014-11/04/c_133765462.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Nordren on 11/07/2014 10:08 AM
Xinhua: Mars probe to debut at upcoming air show (And Tianzhou, CZ-7, + obs sat)

"China Aerospace Science and Technology Corp. announced Thursday that it would put a selection of the latest space achievements, including the Mars probe, on display at an upcoming air show.

The biennial air show is to be held in the southern port city of Zhuhai, Guangdong province from Nov. 11 to Nov. 16.

Exhibits will include a cargo spacecraft, the "Long March 7" carrier rocket and a high-definition Earth observation satellite.

The airshow will feature new aircraft, trade talks and technological exchanges. It is the only international aerospace trade show endorsed by the central government."

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-11/06/c_133770979.htm (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-11/06/c_133770979.htm)

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 11/09/2014 01:54 AM
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/09/2014 07:54 AM
Thanks Blackstar. The information for the latter missions appears to have been blocked out. Compared to previous announcements, there are no new missions there. The only discrepancy is the Mars Sample Return mission in 2023. Previous planning had a Mars Lander and Rover mission before that. Here is the old information and the information from that slide.

Stage 1
1) Mars Global Remote Sensing Orbiter and Small Rover
2) Near-Earth Asteroid Multi-Target Detection
3) Sun Fixed-Point Observation.

Stage 2 (Further Promotion)
1) Venus Exploration Orbiter
2) Mars Lander and Rover
3) Solar Polar Orbit Observer
4) Main-Belt Asteroid (Ceres) Sample Return.

Stage 3 (Sustainable Development)
1) Jupiter Orbiter
2) Mars Sample Return
3) Solar Storms Panoramic Observer.

2017 Chang'e 4 (Lunar Rover)
2018 Chang'e 5 (Lunar Sample Return)
2020 Chang'e 6 (Lunar Sample Return)
2020 Mars Global Remote Sensing Orbiter and Small Rover (Stage 1)
2022 Near-Earth Asteroid Multi-Target Detection (Stage 1)
2023 Mars Sample Return (Stage 3)
2024 Sun Fixed-Point Observation (Stage 1)
2024 Venus Exploration Orbiter (Stage 2)
2025 Main-Belt Asteroid (Ceres) Sample Return (Stage 2)
2027 Solar Polar Orbit Observer (Stage 2)
2028 Jupiter Orbiter (Stage 3)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 11/09/2014 07:22 PM
I don't think that 2023 is a Mars sample return mission. They picked some lousy graphics for those missions--note that they used Galileo for one--and I think that for 2023 that is supposed to be a lander but they picked an image showing something blasting off. My guess is that is their first lander.

I would note that it shows CE-4 in 2017 and CE-5 in 2018.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: vjkane on 11/09/2014 09:00 PM
Blackstar -

Do you have a source and date for that graphic?  I'd like to use it for my blog.

Thanks,
Van
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 11/10/2014 01:14 AM
I have a source and date, but until it is publicly posted (not by me) I won't release it. It should be publicly posted in perhaps a week or so.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: edkyle99 on 11/10/2014 02:45 AM
2) Mars Sample Return
There's your new space race, right there.

 - Ed Kyle
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 11/10/2014 05:05 AM
2) Mars Sample Return
There's your new space race, right there.

 - Ed Kyle
Indeed - if that is an actual MSR plan.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/10/2014 05:22 AM
I agree with Blackstar. The 2023 mission is probably the Stage 2 Mars Lander and Rover mission. They could have used a different picture though, perhaps of Spirit or Opportunity. If the Chinese text was there, we would have a better idea.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 11/10/2014 09:02 AM
a news video of the Zhuhai airshow, including yet another Mars rover model
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLiXwPC6o9g&feature=youtube_gdata
at 0:39 you can see a short CG rendering of Chang'e 5
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/11/2014 05:51 AM
Thanks plutogno. Here are screen captures of the Chang'e 5 animation and Mars Rover. There are three parts for the Mars mission; Orbiter, Landing Platform and Mars Rover. Landing is planned to be by 2020. That matches up with the slide that Blackstar posted previously.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 11/11/2014 11:07 AM
From Xinhua, China plans to launch about 120 applied satellites (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-11/10/c_133779316.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 11/11/2014 03:39 PM
The CE-5 animation does not show a rover. So presumably they will gather samples from next to the lander.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 11/12/2014 02:06 AM
Okay, so I got some updated information on the chart that I posted earlier showing future Chinese planetary programs.

Apparently the chart is the officially released one, but it is actually out of date and not accurate. The Chinese are restructuring their space science program and they will be shifting around responsibility for various programs. They are also beginning a roadmapping process that will define their future programs.

One other piece of information that I got was that if CE-5 is successful at returning samples from the Moon, China will not fly CE-6. If so, that's disappointing, because it means only a single lunar sample return. No word on CE-4. I might get more information on that later.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/12/2014 03:48 AM
Thanks BlackStar. That's disappointing to hear that Chang'e 6 would be cancelled if Chang'e 5 is successful. There are many places on the Moon they could send that second mission to, for example the Aitken basin which I understand to be of a high scientific priority. For Chang'e 4, there's conflicting information on whether it will fly. Again, I think it should fly to see if the rover design has been fixed as well as an opportunity to investigate another area of the Moon.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 11/12/2014 11:53 AM
Agreed on CE-4. A reflight of the rover would be highly useful from both an engineering and scientific standpoint. They could use a lot more operational data.

Also agreed on CE-6. As I have previously noted, if they went to Aitken, they could accomplish something nobody else has, plus perform very important science.

However, what I was told was that the bureaucracy is being reorganized and plans are being redrawn, so they might develop different plans in the future. It is possible they might shift their priorities to Mars, or determine that an ongoing lunar program is important.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: baldusi on 11/12/2014 01:46 PM
How important is to the bureaucracy the fact that Mars gets most of the international awe for missions? Upto now their robotic program has been very scientific and capabilities driven. Could they change that? Or could this be just the stepping stones to a Martian program?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: hop on 11/12/2014 09:49 PM
However, what I was told was that the bureaucracy is being reorganized and plans are being redrawn, so they might develop different plans in the future. It is possible they might shift their priorities to Mars, or determine that an ongoing lunar program is important.
A lesson here for people who think China's program is on some predetermined decades long master plan to <insert favorite space fantasy>
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 11/13/2014 02:38 AM
How important is to the bureaucracy the fact that Mars gets most of the international awe for missions? Upto now their robotic program has been very scientific and capabilities driven. Could they change that? Or could this be just the stepping stones to a Martian program?

Well, those are questions, aren't they?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 11/13/2014 02:43 AM
However, what I was told was that the bureaucracy is being reorganized and plans are being redrawn, so they might develop different plans in the future. It is possible they might shift their priorities to Mars, or determine that an ongoing lunar program is important.
A lesson here for people who think China's program is on some predetermined decades long master plan to <insert favorite space fantasy>

I don't know why anybody would think that.

However, there was a discussion on the CE-5T thread about why China flies these missions and at least one poster suggested that it is all prestige/propaganda. But if you look at the wide range of space science missions they are planning or considering, you see that they are doing a lot of things that have no prestige/propaganda component. For instance, does a mission to investigate relativity, or dark matter, earn them any political points? Not really.

So clearly China is pursuing a broad based space science program because they think it has value. Certainly some missions have propaganda value, but that does not appear to be a driver. They do this for other reasons.

Now, what would be interesting to get a better understanding of is how they come up with their priorities. How do they decide what is most important and allocate resources? Other countries, such as the U.S., Europe, Japan, all have procedures for doing this. China must have that as well. That will drive their decision making for their next missions such as further lunar exploration or going on to Mars instead.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Eerie on 11/13/2014 11:40 AM
Now, what would be interesting to get a better understanding of is how they come up with their priorities. How do they decide what is most important and allocate resources? Other countries, such as the U.S., Europe, Japan, all have procedures for doing this. China must have that as well. That will drive their decision making for their next missions such as further lunar exploration or going on to Mars instead.

I'm probably mistaken, but it feels like the Chinese space exploration plan consists of taking the list of Soviet space achievements and checking off everything, not necessary in the same order. Salyut, Mir, Zond, Luna...

I hope they'll start going through NASA's list soon. :-)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 11/13/2014 03:48 PM
Now, what would be interesting to get a better understanding of is how they come up with their priorities. How do they decide what is most important and allocate resources? Other countries, such as the U.S., Europe, Japan, all have procedures for doing this. China must have that as well. That will drive their decision making for their next missions such as further lunar exploration or going on to Mars instead.

I'm probably mistaken, but it feels like the Chinese space exploration plan consists of taking the list of Soviet space achievements and checking off everything, not necessary in the same order. Salyut, Mir, Zond, Luna...

I hope they'll start going through NASA's list soon. :-)

I don't think that's the case when you look at their space science plans. They have a rather broad set of plans, including solar and astronomy missions. They clearly are trying to answer some scientific questions. I honestly don't know how they pick those missions or what they are interested in, but my general impression is that they want a space science program that rivals the American and European programs in scope and quality. They want to be known as world-class scientists.

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Danderman on 11/13/2014 05:35 PM
Russians may visit China’s orbital module — space agency

http://en.itar-tass.com/non-political/759316

HUHAI (China), November 12. /TASS/. Russian cosmonauts may in the future visit the Chinese orbiting module Tiangong-1, and their Chinese colleagues may visit the International Space Station (ISS), head of the Russian Federal Space Agency (Roscosmos) Oleg Ostapenko said on Wednesday.

“As for the possible manned flight program projects, China has such an interest and they have expressed it in the negotiations we held today,” Ostapenko said, answering reporters’ questions at the Airshow China 2014 International Aviation & Aerospace Exhibition.

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Kryten on 11/14/2014 08:09 PM
 AFAIK, China's DF-5 liquid-fuelled ICBMs are to be retired sometime in the near future; has there been any indication they might be recycled as LVs, especially given their commonality with the CZ-2 series?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: baldusi on 11/15/2014 12:52 AM

Russians may visit China’s orbital module — space agency

http://en.itar-tass.com/non-political/759316

HUHAI (China), November 12. /TASS/. Russian cosmonauts may in the future visit the Chinese orbiting module Tiangong-1, and their Chinese colleagues may visit the International Space Station (ISS), head of the Russian Federal Space Agency (Roscosmos) Oleg Ostapenko said on Wednesday.

“As for the possible manned flight program projects, China has such an interest and they have expressed it in the negotiations we held today,” Ostapenko said, answering reporters’ questions at the Airshow China 2014 International Aviation & Aerospace Exhibition.
That would be trading places (like sending a Russian in a Shenzhou to the Chinese Space Station for each Chinese launched in a Soyuz to the ISS?) because everything indicates that China will launch their station on a 42deg orbit that's absolutely incompatible with crewed Russian launches.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 11/18/2014 07:11 PM
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/19/2014 06:13 AM
Thanks BlackStar. Anybody have any idea what that arm above the spacecraft is?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Nordren on 11/19/2014 07:25 AM
There are some clips knocking around on Chinese video-sharing sites, from which the above image is taken. Found two of Chang'e-5 and another of the 2018-2010 Mars mission. They seem to be a series - anyone know who has come up with these?

CE5
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XODI3NzE2MjI0.html (http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XODI3NzE2MjI0.html)
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNjYwMDExMTcy.html (http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNjYwMDExMTcy.html)

Mars
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XODI4NDUzMTA4.html (http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XODI4NDUzMTA4.html)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/19/2014 08:18 AM
Thanks Nordren! Parts of the first and third videos have been shown on Chinese TV, but the second Chang'e 5 video is new to me. This also shows what that second arm does, delivering what I think are core samples to the container.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/19/2014 08:20 AM
Here are captures of the Mars video.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 11/19/2014 01:49 PM
From Xinhua, China expects to introduce space law around 2020 (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-11/17/c_133795888.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 11/22/2014 01:29 AM
I'm probably mistaken, but it feels like the Chinese space exploration plan consists of taking the list of Soviet space achievements and checking off everything, not necessary in the same order. Salyut, Mir, Zond, Luna...

I hope they'll start going through NASA's list soon. :-)
They are catching up in the CGI department for sure.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 11/22/2014 03:38 PM
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 11/22/2014 03:46 PM
Steven, many thanks for those screengrabs.

I'm going to re-work my Space Review article about China's lunar program for Spaceflight, with artwork by Giuseppe. What I want to do is tie their lunar plans to a possible future human lunar mission. I'm very interested in seeing how their lunar science program plays out. I would like to see them pursue real science goals. They have a powerful/flexible architecture that they're building, so they can go many places on the Moon and return to China. Of course, the greatest benefit would be to return South Pole Aitken Basin samples.

As for their Mars plans and rover, we'll see how much their actual architecture compares to this video. JPL considered putting the rover on top of the lander, but determined that it made it too top heavy. I think that having ramps all around the rover also adds a lot of mass that you don't want (parasitic mass). The Chinese could do it this way, but they might do more engineering studies and conclude that it's not the best approach.

In order to lower the center of gravity for MSL (Curiosity), JPL considered this "pallet lander" design.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/23/2014 06:01 AM
Glad to be of help BlackStar. I don't think the Chinese are too worried about their lander possibly being top-heavy. Their Chang'e 3 lander was also "top heavy" by carrying a rover on top. The advantage the Chinese have is their automatic landing software which can view the terrain below and actively go to a flat area. The US with Curiosity didn't have that, so they were very worried about landing on boulders or steep hills, which influenced how they designed the lander.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 11/23/2014 02:23 PM
Glad to be of help BlackStar. I don't think the Chinese are too worried about their lander possibly being top-heavy. Their Chang'e 3 lander was also "top heavy" by carrying a rover on top. The advantage the Chinese have is their automatic landing software which can view the terrain below and actively go to a flat area. The US with Curiosity didn't have that, so they were very worried about landing on boulders or steep hills, which influenced how they designed the lander.

That's a valid point--the uncertainty factor has decreased. Another thing that has reduced the uncertainty factor for the Chinese is the American MRO and LRO high-resolution imagery. When you have poor quality imagery of potential landing sites, you have to plan for a wider range of possibilities, but when you have good quality imagery, you can find the best sites and head there with less guess work.

I learned that from somebody working on an American lunar lander proposal. They had worked on a previous proposal ca 2008 and that one had a requirement for entering orbit and scouting out sites prior to landing. The new one does not. I asked why and he told me that it's because LRO has picked their sites for them.

I think one other factor for the Chinese is that their rover will be smaller than Curiosity, so the CG won't be as high. Curiosity was designed to be a big rover from the beginning, so that was going to push the CG up and JPL needed to find a way to get it down.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: vjkane on 11/23/2014 04:00 PM
I think that having a space exploration program is the equivalent of China's Treasure Fleet.  It is the sign that you are a great power.  It's nice that we also get some really great science out of this, too.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 11/24/2014 02:57 AM
A few years ago National Geographic Channel had a really good documentary called Martian Mega Rover about the Curiosity rover. Unfortunately, they never put it out on DVD and it disappeared from their website quickly. I didn't realize that it was put on YouTube last year but just found it today.

I did some screengrabs that show why they rejected the rover atop a lander approach for Curiosity. I include this as a comparison with the Chinese plans.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: rcoppola on 11/24/2014 03:45 AM
Glad to be of help BlackStar. I don't think the Chinese are too worried about their lander possibly being top-heavy. Their Chang'e 3 lander was also "top heavy" by carrying a rover on top. The advantage the Chinese have is their automatic landing software which can view the terrain below and actively go to a flat area. The US with Curiosity didn't have that, so they were very worried about landing on boulders or steep hills, which influenced how they designed the lander.
Landing a 310 pound rover on the lunar surface is a far different matter than landing a 2,000 pound rover on Mars. The size and weight of MSL was driving the design of their EDL. More so than any absence of automatic landing software. Or do I not remember the primary development drivers correctly.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/25/2014 06:00 AM
What about the Apollo Lunar Module? The ascent stage was 5 tonnes and was pretty high up! The lander that toppled also only had three legs. A fourth leg and active guidance could have made all the difference.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 11/25/2014 06:39 AM
I'm probably mistaken, but it feels like the Chinese space exploration plan consists of taking the list of Soviet space achievements and checking off everything, not necessary in the same order. Salyut, Mir, Zond, Luna...

I hope they'll start going through NASA's list soon. :-)
They are catching up in the CGI department for sure.

Meaning what?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 11/25/2014 05:51 PM
I'm probably mistaken, but it feels like the Chinese space exploration plan consists of taking the list of Soviet space achievements and checking off everything, not necessary in the same order. Salyut, Mir, Zond, Luna...

I hope they'll start going through NASA's list soon. :-)
They are catching up in the CGI department for sure.

Meaning what?

Meaning that they produce much slicker and better-looking animations of their missions than before. I am interested in how accurately these animations portray the hardware. Are the people producing these animations for CE-5 and the Mars lander working closely with the engineers, or are they guessing on some things? I think it is the former, not the latter. But I would like to know, because it would be interesting to learn how far they have gotten with their Mars lander and rover designs.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 11/25/2014 09:56 PM
I'm probably mistaken, but it feels like the Chinese space exploration plan consists of taking the list of Soviet space achievements and checking off everything, not necessary in the same order. Salyut, Mir, Zond, Luna...

I hope they'll start going through NASA's list soon. :-)
They are catching up in the CGI department for sure.

Meaning what?

Meaning that they produce much slicker and better-looking animations of their missions than before. I am interested in how accurately these animations portray the hardware. Are the people producing these animations for CE-5 and the Mars lander working closely with the engineers, or are they guessing on some things? I think it is the former, not the latter. But I would like to know, because it would be interesting to learn how far they have gotten with their Mars lander and rover designs.

That's what I hoped it meant ;)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 12/07/2014 07:17 PM
A slightly looney article, but a fun read

http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/Articles_2014/China_in_Space.pdf
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 12/27/2014 03:39 PM
From Xinhua, FY-2C satellite successfully deorbited (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-12/26/c_133881036.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 12/27/2014 03:40 PM
From Xinhua, HD remote sensing images cover China's landmass (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-12/26/c_133881334.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 12/27/2014 06:41 PM
In other news.

Chinese state-owned aerospace giant seeks private partnership (http://www.ecns.cn/business/2014/12-18/147052.shtml)
Quote
In a move to spur innovation, state-owned China Aerospace Science and Technology Corp. (CASC), the major contractor for China's space program, invited 1,300 private enterprises to a forum it co-hosted in the eastern city of Ningbo.

The 2014 China (Ningbo) international forum on advanced aerospace materials and commercialization, which ended on Wednesday, signals a shift in the once restricted sector to a more-open working style that encourages collaborative practice with private entities


China Manned Space Agency Signed Cooperation Agreement with European Space Agency (http://en.cmse.gov.cn/show.php?contentid=1471)
Quote
On December 11, Wang Zhaoyao, Director of the China Manned Space Agency, met with Mr. Jean-Jacques Dordain, Director of European Space Agency in Beijing. The two leaders signed an agreement between CMSA and ESA concerning cooperation on human spaceflight activities (hereinafter referred to as the “Cooperation Agreement”). It marks that the Sino-EU cooperation in the field of manned spaceflight has entered a substantial stage ...

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 01/18/2015 08:25 PM
..SVLBI (Space Millimitre VLBI Array)..

Came across this one :
The Chinese space millimeter-wavelength VLBI array - a step toward imaging the most compact astronomical objects
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1403.5188.pdf
older version : http://www.issibj.ac.cn/Program/Forums/SVLBI/201403/W020130913595866229652.pdf
Quote
If the two satellites of this project could be launched and put into operation around 2020 as planned, it would form the worlds first space VLBI network working at 43 GHz. The ultrahigh (20 μas) resolution and the outstanding imaging capacity enable direct imaging of supermassive black holes, the central engines of AGN and other compact radio sources.

This would be a nice step up from Spektr-R (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=27335.40)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Nordren on 03/04/2015 09:18 PM
China at technical preparation stage for Mars, asteroid exploration (http://europe.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2015-03/03/content_19708096.htm), (source: Xinhua - interview with Ye Peijian from CLEP, CAST)

(Nothing not mentioned in China’s Deep-space Exploration to 2030 (http://www.cjss.ac.cn/EN/abstract/abstract2061.shtml) in Chinese Journal of Space Science, published last summer.)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 03/06/2015 08:39 AM
It's currently big heads talking time in China, and as always there are lots of official quotes about various space programs. I'll try to translate them in due time on the various threads....  ;)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 03/06/2015 06:22 PM
New report on China's space program. Says that they will not launch CE-4, but cite a document from early 2014 about that.

http://origin.www.uscc.gov/sites/default/files/Research/China%20Dream%20Space%20Dream_Report.pdf?utm_content=buffer58949&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer


Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 03/08/2015 06:04 PM
From Xinhua, China has ability but no plan for manned lunar mission: expert (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2015-03/07/c_134046127.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Nordren on 03/13/2015 08:14 AM
From Xinhua: China plans to launch Chang'e-4 before 2020 (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2015-03/12/c_134062405.htm)

So, Chang'e-5 before Chang'e-4. CE4 will use private investment. No specifics (could they go for a far side landing?).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 04/01/2015 09:25 PM
http://spacenews.com/chinas-mars-exploration-program-facing-delays/

China’s Mars Exploration Program Facing Delays

by Jeff Foust — April 1, 2015

WASHINGTON — As China presses ahead with a series of robotic lunar missions, its plans to begin a Mars exploration program could be delayed, a leading Chinese space scientist said March 31.

In a presentation at the National Research Council’s Space Science Week meeting here, Wu Ji, director general of the National Space Science Center of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, said that the Chinese government had yet to formally approve a proposal for a robotic Mars mission tentatively scheduled for 2020.

“We are aiming at 2020, but still we don’t have the green light from the government” to proceed with the mission, Wu said. He said that ongoing government reforms were at the root of the delays, which he said put the schedule of the mission in question. “There’s nobody really in charge to accept this proposal.”

Wu said feasibility studies for the mission are in progress by his academy as well as in industry. The current concept, he says, includes both an orbiter and a lander, the latter carrying a rover. He did not provide any technical details of the spacecraft, or planned scientific objectives of the mission.



"China is moving ahead with the sample return mission after the experience of its first lunar lander mission, Chang’e-3, which landed on the moon in December 2013. Despite technical problems with instruments on the lander, and mechanical problems that caused the lander’s small rover, Yutu, to stop moving about a month after landing, Wu said that mission was still viewed as a success.

Wu said that China had planned a second, similar lunar lander mission, called Chang’e-4, as a backup to Chang’e-3. With the success of Chang’e-3, however, China has postponed plans for Chang’e-4. “Because Chang’e-3 was so successful, the Chinese space agency doesn’t want to launch Chang’e-4 anymore” because there was little that could be learned from it, he said.

Instead, China now plans to fly an upgraded Chang’e-4 after the sample return mission. Wu said the revised Chang’e-4 mission, now scheduled for 2020, will use a more powerful launch vehicle that will allow for a heavier spacecraft and feature a landing in a different region of the moon, including possibly the far side.

Wu suggested that China would be open to international collaboration on instruments for that mission. “If you have good ideas and can provide instruments, you’re welcome to join Chang’e-4,” he said."
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 04/19/2015 09:13 PM
http://gbtimes.com/opinion/china-aiming-far-side-moon

Quote
..
Left in the wilderness is Chang’e-4, the designated backup to Chang’e-3, which included the now stricken (but ultimately successful) Yutu rover. The status of the backup mission has been unclear and even suspected to have been cancelled (Chinese).
 
However, two new announcements - the first by the State Administration for Science, Technology and Industry for National Defense (SASTIND), which oversees China’s space activities, and another from a leading CLEP scientist – have confirmed that the mission is alive and that it will be challenging...
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 04/21/2015 07:04 PM
Thanks for posting that. Some interesting tidbits in there:

"Ye explained that many parts for Chang’e-4 were produced at the same time as production of Chang’e-3. He also stated that, in order to play greater role in overall lunar exploration and deep space exploration, some aspects were still being designed, and existing capabilities could be adapted.
 
Most notably, he stated that the location where Chang’e-4 is aimed to land would differ from Chang’e-3 and be ‘more difficult’."

This is consistent with some things that I've heard that this is more of an engineering program than a science one, so they may be more interested in pushing the technology. A farside mission could produce some very good science, and if they really wanted to do a challenging and scientifically important mission, they could go to the South Pole-Aitken Basin.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 05/25/2015 09:41 PM
http://www.leonarddavid.com/chinas-dark-side-agenda/
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 05/30/2015 05:28 PM
The Silly Reason the Chinese Aren’t Allowed on the Space Station (http://time.com/3901419/space-station-no-chinese/)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 05/30/2015 05:29 PM
Chinese astronaut calls for cooperation, access to International Space Station (http://edition.cnn.com/2015/05/28/asia/china-space-mckenzie/index.html)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 05/30/2015 05:33 PM
China - The next space superpower? (http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2015/05/world/china-space/)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 05/30/2015 05:35 PM
Inside China's Space City: Meet the crew of the Shenzhou-10 (http://edition.cnn.com/2015/05/28/asia/china-astronauts-bios/index.html)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 06/04/2015 07:33 PM
China - The next space superpower? (http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2015/05/world/china-space/)

Thanks for posting that.

There's a relatively new bit of web software that a lot of news sites are using. It allows them to place banner pictures inside articles that scroll with the article. But CNN did a poor job of it here. That video at the top of the page does not scroll off the page for me, and it is quite distracting. Makes it hard to focus on the substance of an article when the style is off-putting.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 06/11/2015 07:18 PM
From Xinhua, China launches space junk monitoring center (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2015-06/08/c_134308233.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 06/11/2015 07:19 PM
From Xinhua, China, Europe announce joint satellite mission (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2015-06/04/c_134298066.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 06/13/2015 07:13 AM
this may be of interest: Multi-objective optimization of space station short-term mission planning
http://tech.scichina.com:8082/sciEe/EN/abstract/abstract517885.shtml

Quote
This paper studies the multi-objective optimization of space station short-term mission planning (STMP), which aims to obtain a mission-execution plan satisfying multiple planning demands. The planning needs to allocate the execution time effectively, schedule the on-board astronauts properly, and arrange the devices reasonably. The STMP concept models for problem definitions and descriptions are presented, and then an STMP multi-objective planning model is developed. To optimize the STMP problem, a Non-dominated Sorting Genetic Algorithm II (NSGA-II) is adopted and then improved by incorporating an iterative conflict-repair strategy based on domain knowledge. The proposed approach is demonstrated by using a test case with thirty-five missions, eighteen devices and three astronauts. The results show that the established STMP model is effective, and the improved NSGA-II can successfully obtain the multi-objective optimal plans satisfying all constraints considered. Moreover, through contrast tests on solving the STMP problem, the NSGA-II shows a very competitive performance with respect to the Strength Pareto Evolutionary Algorithm II (SPEA-II) and the Multi-objective Particle Swarm Optimization (MOPSO).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 06/26/2015 04:34 PM
From Xinhua, China's super "eye" to speed up space rendezvous (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2015-06/22/c_134345725.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: limen4 on 07/05/2015 12:54 PM
3 more subsatellites will be launched together with Jilin-1, a 65 kg and two 95 kg birds.All 4 satellites will form a constelation to be expanded in 2016 by 12 more satellites.
Source. http://www.chinaspaceflight.com/satellite/Jilin1/jilin-1.html
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 07/07/2015 05:40 AM
The article says that the launch is scheduled for October. They plan to have a 138 satellite constellation by 2030.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Lsquirrel on 07/15/2015 01:30 PM
lastest  news of Chang'e-4:

Preliminary Suggestions for International Cooperation on Chang'E-4 Lunar Probe
Xu Y. (China)
http://www.unoosa.org/pdf/pres/copuos2015/copuos2015tech08E.pdf

An Introduction of Chang’E-4 Probe:
Probe(Lander,Rover)+  Relay Statellite
Soft-landing on lunar farside
Landing and roving exploration
Will be launched between 2018 and 2019

the probe:
Chang’E-4 probe,lander and rover have the same technical status with the Chang’E -3; but exploration  will be redesigned; the payload will be reconfigered; The name of the probe might be changed.
Chang’E-4 probe is a backup spacecraft of Chang’E -3 probe.  By now, all platform products of the probe have been manufactured, waiting for further AIT.
The probe will be launched by a long March 3B rocket from the Xichang Statellite Launch Center(XSLC) which is the same way with the Chang'E-3 between 2018 and 2019

The relay statellite:
will be first launched into a lunar transfer orbit about the end of  2018 in the whole mission, then starts its earth-to-moon jurnery alone, and will enter and run in a Halo orbit around the Earth-Moon L2 point; the design life is 3 years.
would provide  relay service for the probe and the Earth, and carry out exploration.   

Engineering objectives are as follow.
 To realize the first soft landing on the lunar farside and perform exploration in human history.
 To demonstrate technologies of lunar data relay, landing and roving on complicated terrains of the lunar farside, and lunar night power generation;
 To perform further detailed survey on lunar environment in order to lay a foundation for subsequent lunar exploration mission.

Tentative Scientific objectives are as follow.
 To study lunar surface dust features and its formation mechanism;
 To perform in-situ measurement of lunar surface residual magnetism
and study its interaction with solar wind;
 To study lunar surface temperature and particle radiation environment;
 To perform lunar surface topology and material composition analysis,
shallow-layer structure survey and study;
 To explore and study lunar interior structure of spheres;
 To perform lunar based VLF astronomical observation and study

International Cooperation(from others source):
http://www.cnsa.gov.cn/n1081/n7529/n308608/725881.html

中欧深空探测研讨会在北京召开
发布日期:2015年07月14日  字体:【大】【中】【小】
  2015年7月9日至10日,中国国家航天局与欧洲空间局在京召开中欧月球探测研讨会,会议围绕嫦娥四号目标任务和有效载荷搭载进行了讨论。
  会上,欧洲空间局相关专家提出利用嫦娥四号搭载月震仪、快闪相机、激光反射器等载荷的建议。经商议,双方初步确定将月震仪和快闪相机等四个有效载荷纳入合作范围。欧洲空间局负责协商欧洲载荷以及其总成与接口,中方通过双边航天局长会晤推动建立载荷研制国技术团队,争取在2018年提交正样。
  来自法国巴黎索邦大学、瑞士苏黎世理工、澳门科技大学以及中国国家航天局探月与航天工程中心、中国科学院、北京大学、中国科学技术大学、中国地质大学等单位的专家学者参加了会议。

Laser Reflector? :o How does it work on farside, or Chang'e-4 will still be landing on nearside?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phil Stooke on 07/15/2015 03:51 PM
The current Chinese plan is to land on the far side.  The laser reflector is suggested as a high priority payload by an ESA group looking at cooperation.  The two don't work together, so we don't know which way it will go.  But it's not a contradictory plan, it's an external suggestion to change the plan.  Probably won't happen, because the prestige (and science value) of the first far side landing is likely to trump that one payload suggestion.  Incidentally, there's really no reason why that laser reflector shouldn't be mounted on the landing stage of the Chang'E 5 sample return lander, which will be near side.  That's a far more likely outcome than flying it on CE4.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 07/16/2015 05:51 AM
Thanks Lsquirrel. This should be an exciting mission. Some new information is that Chang’e 4 will be launching on a CZ-3B (the same as for Chang’e 3) between 2018 and 2019. The Lunar relay satellite (LRS) will launch in late 2018, but the launch vehicle type is not mentioned. Obviously, you want the LRS to be in position before sending the lander for a far side landing.

The Chinese are also looking for international cooperation. May be difficult with the US, but perhaps ESA might be able to provide ground station access or instruments. I'm not sure how Russia or India could cooperate, as they will be focussed on their own landers which will probably land on the near side.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 07/16/2015 07:51 AM
Why not a laser on the relay satellite?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 07/16/2015 08:50 AM

Tentative Scientific objectives are as follow.
1) To study lunar surface dust features and its formation mechanism;
2) To perform in-situ measurement of lunar surface residual magnetism and study its interaction with solar wind;
3) To study lunar surface temperature and particle radiation environment;
4) To perform lunar surface topology and material composition analysis, shallow-layer structure survey and study;
5) To explore and study lunar interior structure of spheres;
6) To perform lunar based VLF astronomical observation and study

I have numbered the possible experiments in the original quote, they suggest a mix of experiments, some the same as on Chang'e 3/Yutu, some different.

1) This could mean many things, physical and chemical properties, microscopic observations, perhaps even observations of mobilisation during the lunar diurnal cycle.  These would be mostly new.
2) This suggest some kind of magnetic and plasma observatory rather like some ALSEP experiments but much more compact.  A far side location would provide a whole new range of phenomena for study.  Maybe some synchronous observations with the relay satellite?  These would be new for the Chinese program
3) Temperature data could be supplied engineering sensors, and perhaps a non-contract thermometer on Yutu.  A radiation sensor would be new, and probably best on the lander.
4) This suggest rover experiments similar to Yutu - an APX or SRF and the very successful GPR
5) This could be some kind of seismometer, magnetic telluric sensor or radio tracking geodesy, all best on the lander, and all new for the Chinese space program and some for the first time by anyone (e.g. MT)
6) Presumably lander based.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: notsorandom on 07/16/2015 05:59 PM
...
Tentative Scientific objectives are as follow.
 To study lunar surface dust features and its formation mechanism;
 To perform in-situ measurement of lunar surface residual magnetism
and study its interaction with solar wind;
 To study lunar surface temperature and particle radiation environment;
 To perform lunar surface topology and material composition analysis,
shallow-layer structure survey and study;
 To explore and study lunar interior structure of spheres;
 To perform lunar based VLF astronomical observation and study
VLF, now that is interesting! Assuming that it is not a typo of VHF. Having done some messing about with VLF radios myself I'd love to know more about that.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phil Stooke on 07/17/2015 10:15 PM
"Why not a laser on the relay satellite?"

To do what?  It can't do what the purpose of the laser retroreflector is, to measure the earth-moon distance precisely.  You would never know the double leg distances well enough to get a result.

Actually there's another aspect to all this consideration of future Chinese missions to the Moon.  This was a 3-stage plan (orbit, land, return) and each stage was to have two missions.  CE1 and 2 were orbiters, with CE2 more advanced than CE1.  CE3 and CE4 were to be lander/rovers, and sure enough that's what we are getting after some uncertainty about how CE4 would be used (if CE3 failed it would be a straight backup, no uncertainty at all).  CE4 is being flown out of sequence to give time to update it.

But what about the sample return stage?  CE5 will do the return.  If it fails, we had expected a backup CE6 to try to recover from the failure.  But what if CE5 succeeds?  Presumably CE6 could be cancelled if they need to save money.  Or it could be flown to a different location for a different sample.  But now, a year after CE5, there will be a farside relay satellite in place for CE4.  That opens the possibility of a sample return to the far side, maybe into SPA to fulfill the long-held wish for a sample from the SPA melt sheet.  That would be a major scientific advance, absolutely world-class.

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 07/17/2015 11:27 PM
By the way,
http://ldse2015.csp.escience.cn/dct/page/1
Quote
We cordially invite you to attend the 2nd Beijing International Forum on Lunar and Deep-space Exploration  (LDSE 2015), Sep 7-10, 2015, which will take place in the beautiful city of Beijing, China

Should be interesting.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 07/20/2015 12:13 AM
"Why not a laser on the relay satellite?"

To do what?  It can't do what the purpose of the laser retroreflector is, to measure the earth-moon distance precisely.  You would never know the double leg distances well enough to get a result.

Why not?  Distances to the satellite can be measured to the required accuracy, and from the satellite to the ground.  This is the farside we talking about, the data does not have to be as good as what we have on the nearside, just better than what we have at present which is zero, and good enough to be useful.

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phil Stooke on 07/20/2015 04:00 PM
No.  The only purpose of laser retroreflection is earth-moon distance.  This isn't about mapping lunar topography.  You would never know the 3D position of the spacecraft well enough, or the spacecraft-moon distance, or which spot on the moon you were getting a reflection from, or the angle between the two beams.  And what exactly does your last sentence mean?  What is zero?  And if the distance would not be as good as data from the near side, why bother?  What we need is stable mirrors on the nearside, but over a wider range of lunar latitude and longitude so we can measure librations better.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: limen4 on 07/22/2015 07:30 PM
Puzzling together available information from various sources yields the following image of a joint CAS-ESA mission:
-   As a cooperation project with ESA Shanghai Engineering Center for Microsatellites (SECM) has designed  a Space Ultra Low Frequency Radio Observatory (SULFRO) consisting of a mother satellite and 12 2U cubesats as daughter satellites to form a constellation at the L2 point
-   Tianwang-1 (天网一号;TW-1) is a 3 microsatellite mission which will demonstrate formation flying and inter-satellite communication, It consits of a SECM 2U Cubesat , one 2U Cubesat (NJUST-2) and one 3U Cubesat (NJFA-1) both from Nanjing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics ().
-   The launch of TW-1 was originally planned for late 2014 together with a not specified remote sensing satellite and was later slipped to May 2015
-   According to recent rumors the launch of TW-1 will happen now in September in a 481 km orbit. Based on this information a CZ-4B with a YG-21 resp.GF-8 type satellite could be the potential primary mission.
Sources:
http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3034&context=smallsat,
http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object/doc.cfm?fobjectid=54991.
http://zs.njust.edu.cn/newzs/news/zhxw/20140504091229.htm,
http://www.chinaspaceflight.com
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 07/22/2015 08:50 PM

-   According to recent rumors the launch of TW-1 will happen now in September in a 481 km orbit. Based on this information a CZ-4B with a YG-21 resp.GF-8 type satellite could be the potential primary mission.


So, TW-1 will not be a cargo for the CZ-11 or CZ-6 (?)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 07/23/2015 05:09 AM
No.  The only purpose of laser retroreflection is earth-moon distance.  This isn't about mapping lunar topography.  You would never know the 3D position of the spacecraft well enough, or the spacecraft-moon distance, or which spot on the moon you were getting a reflection from, or the angle between the two beams.  And what exactly does your last sentence mean?  What is zero?  And if the distance would not be as good as data from the near side, why bother?  What we need is stable mirrors on the nearside, but over a wider range of lunar latitude and longitude so we can measure librations better.

The purpose purpose of lunar laser ranging is lunar geodesy, the accurate shape of the lunar geoid, it's attitude in space, and how these change over time.   The Earth-Moon distance is only one small part of this.

What makes say that we would not know the position of a satellite accurately enough to yield useful geodetic data?  Evidence please, not assertion.

We would know where the laser reflection from the lunar farside would be coming from because the reflector would be on the lander.

I said we have zero geodetic data from the lunar farside because we have no landers there for accurate measurement. 
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phil Stooke on 07/23/2015 04:03 PM
The geoid comes from LOLA.  Laser ranging is for the orbit, and now for physical libration which gives you internal structure, as well as relativity and other experiments.  And evidence?  You are substituting four paths for one to get the full return signal, everything's moving and every step has error bars.  The LRRR people at Apache Point get 1 millimeter precision in their ranges.  So to reiterate, since you can't know the position in 3D of your satellite to a millimeter (right?) you will never get anything useful this way.  The Laser folk are very clear about what they need, more reflectors spread out more on the near side. 

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 07/23/2015 11:58 PM
http://sinodefence.com/2015/07/22/china-manned-space-history-1/

History of China’s Manned Space Programme (Part 1): Shuguang 1 and Project 714
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 07/26/2015 12:51 AM
I don't know how accurate these articles about the history of China's human spaceflight program are:

http://sinodefence.com/2015/07/24/china-manned-space-history-2/

History of China’s Manned Space Programme (Part 2): Space Shuttle vs Capsule
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 07/26/2015 07:25 AM
Orbit Design for Twin-spacecraft Space VLBI
http://www.cjss.ac.cn/EN/abstract/abstract2156.shtml

Quote
Space Very Long Baseline Interferometry (S-VLBI) is an aperture synthesis technique utilizing an array of radio telescopes including ground telescopes and space orbiting telescopes. It can achieve much higher spatial resolution than that from the ground-only VLBI. In this paper, a new concept of twin spacecraft S-VLBI has been proposed, which utilizes the space-space baselines formed by two satellites to obtain larger and uniform uv coverage without atmospheric influence and hence achieve high quality images with higher angular resolution. The orbit selections of the two satellites are investigated. The imaging performance and actual launch conditions are all taken into account in orbit designing of the twin spacecraft S-VLBI. Three schemes of orbit design using traditional elliptical orbits and circular orbits are presented. These design results can be used for different scientific goals. Furthermore, these designing ideas can provide useful references for the future Chinese millimeter-wave S-VLBI mission.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 07/30/2015 08:00 AM
The geoid comes from LOLA.  Laser ranging is for the orbit, and now for physical libration which gives you internal structure, as well as relativity and other experiments.  And evidence?  You are substituting four paths for one to get the full return signal, everything's moving and every step has error bars.  The LRRR people at Apache Point get 1 millimeter precision in their ranges.  So to reiterate, since you can't know the position in 3D of your satellite to a millimeter (right?) you will never get anything useful this way.  The Laser folk are very clear about what they need, more reflectors spread out more on the near side.

Thank you for the explanation.  Have the laser folk actually even thought about possibility of farside laser reflectors?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: limen4 on 08/07/2015 05:50 PM
At least since 2012 China amateur radio entusiasts are working on a new amateur satellite mission called CAS-2 consisting of two payloads CAS-2A1 and CAS-2A2. For some time the mission was also called XW-2 but now we know that this is the name of 6 amateur satellites to be launched with the first CZ-6. Instead CAS-2 will be launched by a CZ-2 (?) (http://planet.hamradio.my/?cat=2726) in a 1000km orbit. Some sources gave a inclination of 12 degrees (http://amsat-uk.org/2012/06/26/new-camsat-satellite-cas-2/) other of 99,5 degrees (http://amsat-uk.org/2012/10/18/cas-2a1-and-cas-2a2-linear-transponder-amateur-radio-satellites/).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: luhai167 on 08/10/2015 06:03 AM
I don't know how accurate these articles about the history of China's human spaceflight program are:

http://sinodefence.com/2015/07/24/china-manned-space-history-2/

History of China’s Manned Space Programme (Part 2): Space Shuttle vs Capsule


It is problem a translation from a series of internet post on cchere in 2009, it is combine information from various open sources in China. Since cchere is quite contentious forum know for multi-page nit-picking arguments, and I haven't thing people arguing on that post. I would say it's fairly legit.

The original cchere post here
http://www.cchere.com/article/2100044

A more consolidated article here
http://blog.sciencenet.cn/blog-562887-443004.html
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 08/20/2015 10:42 PM
http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?id=20150820000054&cid=1101&MainCatID=11

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 08/21/2015 01:46 AM
http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?id=20150820000054&cid=1101&MainCatID=11

Quote
A manned lunar mission, a manned space exploration mission and a manned mission to Mars were all among proposals discussed at the conference.

At the conference, held at the Harbin Institute of Technology, Liu Jizhong, director of the Lunar Exploration Program and Space Engineering Center under the State Administration for Science, Technology and Industry for National Defence, said China's space ambitions will revolve around Mars exploration, the next stages of lunar exploration and related research, and asteroid exploration as well as the exploration of Jupiter and beyond.

Cant say they are lacking in the ambition department.
Quote
Wu said there needs to be improvement to space exploration technology in the following areas: trajectory design, autonomous technology, new forms of energy and propulsion technology, space monitoring technology and load-bearing capabilities.
Whats encouraging is that they seem to be investing heavily and advancing well in all areas of these technologies.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 08/21/2015 02:18 AM
Cant say they are lacking in the ambition department.

I actually think that they've done a pretty good job of not getting too ambitious for their resources. They are very careful in what they say that they will do, and very careful in how they say things. I've noticed for years now that when one of their space officials talks about, say, human lunar missions, he will say "This is not an approved mission, we are simply doing a study." The problem has been that the Western press inflates that, or misreports, or is just plain careless and sloppy. And in the past year or so they have even stated that although they had plans for sending robotic missions to Mars, they are backing away from Mars for a bit.

What is not well known is that they are currently reorganizing their civil space program. Reorganizations always require adjustment periods. So it is going to take them awhile to figure out up from down. But my limited understanding of them is that they could use a reorganization to get their system into better order. Ideally, they should take the human spaceflight program out of the military and run it entirely as a civil program, but one of the problems with that is that the PLA is one of the few competent government institutions in China, so they need that expertise.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 08/21/2015 03:01 AM
Agreed with your post, I have always gotten a sense that they are careful about what is being put out and do not really get ahead of reality.
I meant ambition in the good way, as in having a vision of where  things should be going, in what order and why. Also the vision does seem to evolve reasonably in line with actual achievements and demonstrated capabilities
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 08/21/2015 02:53 PM
From Xinhua, Satellites focus on rescue and damage control work (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2015-08/21/c_134541236.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 08/21/2015 05:05 PM
Agreed with your post, I have always gotten a sense that they are careful about what is being put out and do not really get ahead of reality.
I meant ambition in the good way, as in having a vision of where  things should be going, in what order and why. Also the vision does seem to evolve reasonably in line with actual achievements and demonstrated capabilities

Yeah, we're in agreement. I see China as adopting a measured program. Their lunar plans appear to be a good case of thinking things through, step by step, and building capability.

Now what I've heard is that the science on the lunar program may not be all that great, or at least not as good as it could be, because the program is designed by engineers without a lot of up-front scientific involvement. So the engineers are trying to guess at what would be good observations. That may be part of the reorganization that I mentioned earlier, with them trying to better shape how they establish priorities.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 08/21/2015 09:55 PM
Agreed with your post, I have always gotten a sense that they are careful about what is being put out and do not really get ahead of reality.
I meant ambition in the good way, as in having a vision of where  things should be going, in what order and why. Also the vision does seem to evolve reasonably in line with actual achievements and demonstrated capabilities

Yeah, we're in agreement. I see China as adopting a measured program. Their lunar plans appear to be a good case of thinking things through, step by step, and building capability.

Now what I've heard is that the science on the lunar program may not be all that great, or at least not as good as it could be, because the program is designed by engineers without a lot of up-front scientific involvement. So the engineers are trying to guess at what would be good observations. That may be part of the reorganization that I mentioned earlier, with them trying to better shape how they establish priorities.

The papers I have seen have been impressive, especially the GRP work.  Nobody has done surface GPR off Earth before, and it is a very powerful technique for exploring the subsurface.  The UV and APX spectroscopy has also provided data on a new part of the Moon. So I think this is an example of people unfairly damning with faint praise.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 09/08/2015 06:48 PM
Not sure there is another thread where this fits but, a nice summary presentation of the entire Chang'e program, feb 2015. Nothing new specifically

http://www.unoosa.org/pdf/pres/stsc2015/tech-06E.pdf



Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 09/15/2015 04:16 AM
I think this covers the ongoing lunar science forum in Bejing. No idea what is being said though :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB3I9H0TabI
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 09/15/2015 07:07 PM
New Rand report:

http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR300/RR392/RAND_RR392.pdf

There are a couple of dozen pages in there about China's military space and counter-space capabilities.

I might see if I can excerpt those pages and post them separately here.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 09/21/2015 08:29 AM
http://www.amazon.com/kindle/dp/B010Z4QZMM
"When China Goes to the Moon... (Studies in Space Policy) " - by Marco Aliberti (Author) , pub  July 4, 2015

Kindle formatting looks a bit borked
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phillip Clark on 09/21/2015 08:47 AM
http://www.amazon.com/kindle/dp/B010Z4QZMM
"When China Goes to the Moon... (Studies in Space Policy) " - by Marco Aliberti (Author) , pub  July 4, 2015
Kindle formatting looks a bit borked

I managed to get the physical book from one of Amazon's dealers for about 60% of the cover price: not got around to reading it yet.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 09/21/2015 04:25 PM
http://www.amazon.com/kindle/dp/B010Z4QZMM
"When China Goes to the Moon... (Studies in Space Policy) " - by Marco Aliberti (Author) , pub  July 4, 2015
Kindle formatting looks a bit borked

I managed to get the physical book from one of Amazon's dealers for about 60% of the cover price: not got around to reading it yet.
Saw that too, even Springer lists it cheaper for ~$100, also has better chapter by chapter preview  ( attached in full ) http://www.springer.com/gp/book/9783319194721
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 09/26/2015 09:58 AM
a Chinese Hayabusa: Low-thrust trajectory optimization of asteroid sample return mission with multiple revolutions and moon gravity assists
http://phys.scichina.com:8083/sciGe/EN/abstract/abstract509991.shtml
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: manboy on 10/11/2015 10:10 PM
http://www.parabolicarc.com/2015/10/09/china-eyes-generation-crew-vehicle-deep-space-missions/#more-56569
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: the_other_Doug on 10/12/2015 12:46 AM
http://www.parabolicarc.com/2015/10/09/china-eyes-generation-crew-vehicle-deep-space-missions/#more-56569

Makes sense -- if you're looking for a good design for getting crews of 2 or 3 into LEO, make a copy of Soyuz.  If you're looking for a good design for cis-lunar and beyond, make a copy of Apollo.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: input~2 on 10/12/2015 03:16 PM
Remco Timmermans ‏@timmermansr 20 minutes ago
The Chinese CSS will look like this. Launch in 2018, all 3 modules operational from 2022. #IAC2015
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: input~2 on 10/13/2015 06:45 AM
Peter B. de Selding ‏@pbdes 20 hours ago
China space admin chief Xu: Lunar sample return mission in 2017, lander on far side in 2018, lander/rover combination in 2020.#IAC2015
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 10/13/2015 07:45 AM
http://www.parabolicarc.com/2015/10/09/china-eyes-generation-crew-vehicle-deep-space-missions/#more-56569

Makes sense -- if you're looking for a good design for getting crews of 2 or 3 into LEO, make a copy of Soyuz.  If you're looking for a good design for cis-lunar and beyond, make a copy of Apollo.

I think its the opposite of good sense. Shenzhou with the appropriate updates is perfectly capable of performing Lunar missions. That's what Soyuz was originally designed for, of which Shenzhou is a slightly larger copy. Having a 12 t vehicle instead of a 20 t vehicle means you can add 8 t to your Lunar lander, making it much more capable or you can significantly reduce the size of your launch vehicle.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Nordren on 10/15/2015 11:04 AM
China Exclusive: China aims to go deeper into space (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2015-10/15/c_134716387.htm)

A summary of discussions from a recent conference in Harbin, noting that Chinese experts have begun considering going deeper into the solar system - to Mars, asteroids and Jupiter.

This is not new, as it has already been outlined in a paper China’s Deep-space Exploration to 2030 (http://www.cjss.ac.cn/EN/volumn/volumn_1290.shtml) by Ouyang Ziyuan and others. But there's an interesting tidbit on CE4/far side, about needing a constellation of relay satellites if they want to explore lunar poles, and also a mention of possible crewed deep space missions (Long March 9 needed, a long way off). Oh, and feasibility of a mission involving ant-like robots in asteroid exploration.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 10/16/2015 06:08 AM
Peter B. de Selding ‏@pbdes 20 hours ago
China space admin chief Xu: Lunar sample return mission in 2017, lander on far side in 2018, lander/rover combination in 2020.#IAC2015

The LSR 2017 was expected, so was the far side mission in 2018, but the lander/rover combination in 2020 sounds odd. The far side mission is Chang'e 4, which already is a rover/lander.

Does this mean that the rover is to be left off Chang'e 4?  Or is the 2020 mission a new lander/rover mission?

Or is there an error in the comment?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 10/16/2015 06:10 AM
Remco Timmermans ‏@timmermansr 20 minutes ago
The Chinese CSS will look like this. Launch in 2018, all 3 modules operational from 2022. #IAC2015

I two wonder what the two spare docking ports will be used for.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 10/16/2015 05:14 PM
Well, Charlie Bolden (http://spacenews.com/china-and-the-moon-loom-large-yet-distant-for-bolden-woerner/)

Quote
“Let me make a quick statement, for the U.S., mainly,” Bolden said. “If you ask for a show of hands on this podium, there would be only one that does not go up as far as who is talking to the Chinese space agency. That would be mine.

“The reason I believe that where we are today is temporary is because of a practical statement: Everybody up here who has any hopes of a human spaceflight program is talking. They want to get their astronauts and cosmonauts and taikonauts flown. And they’ll go to whoever will fly their people. If we at NASA are not collaborating with everybody, we’ll be on the outside looking in.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Kryten on 10/16/2015 06:03 PM
Remco Timmermans ‏@timmermansr 20 minutes ago
The Chinese CSS will look like this. Launch in 2018, all 3 modules operational from 2022. #IAC2015

I two wonder what the two spare docking ports will be used for.
There's one spare docking port, which is used for an extra core module if they go for the expanded station. The remaining face on the node is an airlock, not a port.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 10/17/2015 06:33 PM
a very interesting paper (although it's all in Chinese): The outlook of China's space astronomy
http://tech.scichina.com:8082/sciE/CN/abstract/abstract518449.shtml
a lot of projects of which I had never heard of...
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 10/21/2015 10:33 PM
Remco Timmermans ‏@timmermansr 20 minutes ago
The Chinese CSS will look like this. Launch in 2018, all 3 modules operational from 2022. #IAC2015

I two wonder what the two spare docking ports will be used for.
There's one spare docking port, which is used for an extra core module if they go for the expanded station. The remaining face on the node is an airlock, not a port.

Thanks!  I wonder why the chose this design, which appears to sacrifice a potential docking part, rather than use the Shenzhou orbital module hatch or a hatch in one of the other modules?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: manboy on 11/19/2015 11:04 AM
Structure Design of an End Effector for the Chinese Space Station Experimental Module Manipulator

http://robotics.estec.esa.int/i-SAIRAS/isairas2014/Data/Session%207b/ISAIRAS_FinalPaper_0150.pdf
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: manboy on 11/19/2015 11:07 AM
Tremendous amount of new info on the docking system!
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: vulture4 on 12/03/2015 09:22 PM
The docking system appears generally simioar to that used on the ISS. Can it be made compatible so as to allow Chinese vehicles to dock there?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 12/03/2015 10:58 PM
The docking system appears generally simioar to that used on the ISS. Can it be made compatible so as to allow Chinese vehicles to dock there?

Quote from the doc:
Quote
The successful development of the docking mechanism has created opportunities for China’s cooperation to international space docking. In October 2010, the International Docking System Standard (IDSS) was released, and also provides a platform for China’s participation in docking mechanism international standardisation. A set of proposals for IDSS interface definition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Docking_System_Standard) document (IDD) were presented in 2011
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Burninate on 12/16/2015 07:12 PM
http://www.parabolicarc.com/2015/10/09/china-eyes-generation-crew-vehicle-deep-space-missions/#more-56569
More coverage of I think the same paper was published yesterday in Sino Defence:
http://sinodefence.com/2015/12/15/china-develops-next-generation-crew-vehicle/

Ofc, the nuance of where on the spectrum this lies between "This is an idea somebody published that officials are not considering" and "This is finished and expected to fly next year" is, as always, hazy, and made even worse by the language barrier and somewhat more opaque decisionmaking apparatus.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Moe Grills on 12/17/2015 03:02 AM
  Should I ask this question? Does China have 'secret' space projects/programs that hobbiests (like yourselves) and those in espionage can only guess at?
I'm not claiming China's complete space program is as secretive as the Soviet space program was in the 1960's, but I seriously doubt that they have revealed ALL to the outside world.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: woods170 on 12/17/2015 07:07 AM
http://www.parabolicarc.com/2015/10/09/china-eyes-generation-crew-vehicle-deep-space-missions/#more-56569
More coverage of I think the same paper was published yesterday in Sino Defence:
http://sinodefence.com/2015/12/15/china-develops-next-generation-crew-vehicle/

Ofc, the nuance of where on the spectrum this lies between "This is an idea somebody published that officials are not considering" and "This is finished and expected to fly next year" is, as always, hazy, and made even worse by the language barrier and somewhat more opaque decisionmaking apparatus.

Now covered by SN as well: http://spacenews.com/chinas-next-gen-capsule-looks-a-lot-like-cst-100-and-orion/

I wonder how long it will  take for some Congress-critters to start accusing China of 'stealing' the CST-100 and Orion designs. Bound to happen given the anti-China attitude of some US politicians.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: vulture4 on 12/17/2015 05:37 PM
It's also derivative of Apollo. However it makes sense that once you have a space station there is little need for a separate orbital module, and its placement ahead of the descent module on the Shenzou made for a heavy package that had to be carried by the launch abort system. It also makes some sense that offshore recovery capability is needed if a really low inclination launch is tried, since there is not that much land available for recovery at low lattitudes.

But what does not make sense is going to ocean recovery for routine operations, particularly with a disk-like capsule that will have a reasonable crossrange capability flying to a station in an orbit that traverses most of China. When you are actually picking up a crew, recovery at sea is always going to be expensive and somewhat risk-prone. It makes more sense to put the Space Station in at least an intermediate inclination, use the airbags, and recover the crew on land.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: notsorandom on 12/17/2015 06:09 PM
The Soyuz shape was also designed to return from the Moon. There are some trade offs between the Soyuz and Apollo design but essentially both will do the job. The Shenzhou sharing the shape of Soyuz also should be able to do this. The craft might need a number of other modifications to go BEO but aside from perhaps a more robust TPS it should be able to handle a lunar return reentry. The Shenzhou seems to be a capable design and I bet there is plenty of room for further improvement. I wonder why they are designing an entirely new craft rather than modifying what they already have. Perhaps the ability to carry 6 people to an LEO station rather than just 3 is a major advantage to them.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: JazzFan on 12/17/2015 10:33 PM
http://www.parabolicarc.com/2015/10/09/china-eyes-generation-crew-vehicle-deep-space-missions/#more-56569
More coverage of I think the same paper was published yesterday in Sino Defence:
http://sinodefence.com/2015/12/15/china-develops-next-generation-crew-vehicle/

Ofc, the nuance of where on the spectrum this lies between "This is an idea somebody published that officials are not considering" and "This is finished and expected to fly next year" is, as always, hazy, and made even worse by the language barrier and somewhat more opaque decisionmaking apparatus.

Now covered by SN as well: http://spacenews.com/chinas-next-gen-capsule-looks-a-lot-like-cst-100-and-orion/

I wonder how long it will  take for some Congress-critters to start accusing China of 'stealing' the CST-100 and Orion designs. Bound to happen given the anti-China attitude of some US politicians.

NASA does not own a copyright on the form and shape of that design.  That is analogous to suing another car manufacturer because their car also has 4 wheels and doors.  It is just another case of form aligned to function.  As others have expressed, they are just looking for the most efficient design for meet their priorities and LEO and BEO needs.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 12/18/2015 01:02 AM
It's also derivative of Apollo. However it makes sense that once you have a space station there is little need for a separate orbital module, and its placement ahead of the descent module on the Shenzou made for a heavy package that had to be carried by the launch abort system.

Note that the Soyuz descent and orbital module total mass is 4.32 t with a total habitable volume of 8.5 m³. Compare that with the Apollo CM which has a mass of 5.56 t and a habitable volume of 6.2 m³. In terms of mass to volume ratio, Soyuz is far superior (0.51 t/m³ for Soyuz compare to 0.90 t/m³ for Apollo). Shenzhou has a total descent and orbital module total mass of 4.74 t and total habitable volume of 14 m³ (if the values in Wikipedia are to be believed), for an efficiency of 0.34 t/m³, much better than Soyuz. Orion has a capsule mass of 10.16 t for a habitable volume of only 8.95 m³ (1.14 t/m³), worse than Apollo!

The reason why the Soyuz configuration is superior is that the mass required for the volume in the orbital module does not need to be returned to Earth. This results in significant savings in the heat shield mass. There are also other savings in that some systems, like the toilet, docking adaptor and rendezvous systems can be moved to the orbital module.

Thus, even though the LAS has to carry the mass of the orbital module, the total mass will still be less than the mass of a single module design.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: notsorandom on 12/18/2015 03:44 PM
It's also derivative of Apollo. However it makes sense that once you have a space station there is little need for a separate orbital module, and its placement ahead of the descent module on the Shenzou made for a heavy package that had to be carried by the launch abort system.

Note that the Soyuz descent and orbital module total mass is 4.32 t with a total habitable volume of 8.5 m³. Compare that with the Apollo CM which has a mass of 5.56 t and a habitable volume of 6.2 m³. In terms of mass to volume ratio, Soyuz is far superior (0.51 t/m³ for Soyuz compare to 0.90 t/m³ for Apollo). Shenzhou has a total descent and orbital module total mass of 4.74 t and total habitable volume of 14 m³ (if the values in Wikipedia are to be believed), for an efficiency of 0.34 t/m³, much better than Soyuz. Orion has a capsule mass of 10.16 t for a habitable volume of only 8.95 m³ (1.14 t/m³), worse than Apollo!

The reason why the Soyuz configuration is superior is that the mass required for the volume in the orbital module does not need to be returned to Earth. This results in significant savings in the heat shield mass. There are also other savings in that some systems, like the toilet, docking adaptor and rendezvous systems can be moved to the orbital module.

Thus, even though the LAS has to carry the mass of the orbital module, the total mass will still be less than the mass of a single module design.
Though it may not be the best in terms of volume to mass the Apollo conical shape has better flying characteristics than the Soyuz headlight capsule. The Apollo shape has a better lift to drag ratio, lower Gs, lower heating, and more cross-range. Both shapes can do a return from the Moon but the Apollo shape offers more options in reentry planning and better reentry conditions. The Chinese are going with a clean sheet design here and they may have decided that overall the better reentry performance was worth the extra mass. Additionally they are looking at the reuse of the capsule. Discarding the orbital module including the docking and other important hardware may cost more over the lift of the program than the cost to bring it back and reuse it.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: vulture4 on 12/19/2015 01:01 AM
Note that the Soyuz descent and orbital module total mass is 4.32 t with a total habitable volume of 8.5 m³. Compare that with the Apollo CM which has a mass of 5.56 t and a habitable volume of 6.2 m³.
The orbital module is certainly useful if the spacecraft is to remain in space alone for days or weeks. If it is transporting personnel to a space station and will dock in a few hours the orbital module is of limited value and personnel capacity is more important. The Soyuz carries only three, and is a tight fit at that. The Dragon has a lower mass of 4.2mt and carries seven. For the Chinese spacecraft on a lunar mission we will have to see what additional volume is added behind the service module by a lander or habitation module.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 12/19/2015 01:02 AM
http://www.parabolicarc.com/2015/10/09/china-eyes-generation-crew-vehicle-deep-space-missions/#more-56569
More coverage of I think the same paper was published yesterday in Sino Defence:
http://sinodefence.com/2015/12/15/china-develops-next-generation-crew-vehicle/

Ofc, the nuance of where on the spectrum this lies between "This is an idea somebody published that officials are not considering" and "This is finished and expected to fly next year" is, as always, hazy, and made even worse by the language barrier and somewhat more opaque decisionmaking apparatus.

I just shake my head in exasperation at how shallow a lot of internet "news" coverage is these days. Lots of people re-post articles to their blogs without even looking at them all that carefully. By my count the Sino Defence article got picked up by a Chinese website in English, repeated on Parabolic Arc, linked on Space News, and picked up by at least one other blog. None of those later sites seem to have actually read the original Sino Defence article carefully.

One could look at that Sino Defence article closely and carefully and ask what is new in it. What is the actual "news" in this article. Most of it is based upon a paper that was published TWO YEARS AGO (January 2014).

The headline of the article is "China develops..." as if it is actively working on this project. 90% of the article, however, is based upon that January 2014 paper. What is their actual evidence that it is in development? What has happened in those two years? The article, near the end, says this:

"It is understood that the concept evaluation stage of the future multi-purpose crew vehicle began around 2013, and the development was initiated later in the same year."

Hopefully some of us can remember our basic classes in English and remember what passive voice means. What does "It is understood that..." mean? Understood by WHOM? No source is cited for that information.

And then the article says this:

"n November 2015, 508 Institute of CAST completed an airdrop test using a set of three parachutes, each with 1,200 square metres of surface area. The test was believed to be associated with the development of the future multi-purpose crew vehicle."

That seems to be the only actual data in the article, that CAST conducted a test. But the article says that the test "was believed to be associated..." In other words, THEY HAVE NO EVIDENCE.

I'm pretty sure that the 2014 paper was discussed on this forum a couple of years ago. We've known about this for a few years. It took that long for Sino Defence to catch up with the story.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 12/19/2015 01:37 AM
The orbital module is certainly useful if the spacecraft is to remain in space alone for days or weeks. If it is transporting personnel to a space station and will dock in a few hours the orbital module is of limited value and personnel capacity is more important. The Soyuz carries only three, and is a tight fit at that. The Dragon has a lower mass of 4.2mt and carries seven. For the Chinese spacecraft on a lunar mission we will have to see what additional volume is added behind the service module by a lander or habitation module.

That 4.2 t dry mass value is from a SpaceX brochure from 2008! See the last post at

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33953.0

SpaceX had only launched one successful flight at that time of Falcon I. Gunter gives a mass of 6.65 t, which is in line with other information I have seen from L2.

http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/dragon.htm

The internal volume is given as 7-10 m³, which gives a volume efficiency range of 0.95 to 0.76 t/m³. Note that Dragon is only able to deliver about 2 t of supplies on each flight. Having a smaller capsule with a large expendable orbital module would have been much more efficient solution.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: vulture4 on 12/31/2015 06:52 PM
However the Apollo volume is entirely available for crewmembers on both ascent and return to Earth, while with the Soyuz only the descent module can be occupied by crew on ascent and only that volume returns, which both the entire crew and any returned materials. This limits the total crew to 3 and led to considerable difficulty returning experimental materials from ISS before the Dragon became available.

The paper says the new module can carry 6 crew for station missions and 4 for deep space misisons. Possibly it was not so much the plan to go to the moon as the desire to launch more than three crew that prompted the new concept.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 12/31/2015 11:01 PM
However the Apollo volume is entirely available for crewmembers on both ascent and return to Earth, while with the Soyuz only the descent module can be occupied by crew on ascent and only that volume returns, which both the entire crew and any returned materials. This limits the total crew to 3 and led to considerable difficulty returning experimental materials from ISS before the Dragon became available.

A solution to that would be to fly Soyuz uncrewed, which would allow for perhaps 450 kg of downmass (150 kg for each cosmonaut). That's plenty for returning experiments. For the US, they could have used a smaller capsule that four crew could fit into (at 3.3 m diameter and 4 t mass for 468 kg/m², Soyuz is 2.17 m and 2.95 t for 798 kg/m²) and return about 600 kg, perhaps more on uncrewed flights due to the lower ballistic coefficient. With a 2 t orbital module, 2.5 t service module, 0.5 t of propellant and say 12 t to ISS payload mass for Falcon 9, that allows 3.0 t of cargo to be carried as well. Volume is about 8 m³ for the capsule and 10.5 m³ for the orbital module.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Danderman on 01/07/2016 10:27 PM
Getting back to the Chinese program, they announced in 2008 that they would begin serial production of their manned spacecraft, but that clearly hasn't happened; in fact they have barely launched anyone in the last 7 years. Now they are talking about a new generation spacecraft, perhaps leaving Shenzhou with a record of a half dozen manned flights over 20 years.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: vulture4 on 01/15/2016 11:48 PM
Perhaps their modest human launch flight rate is consistent with their program objectives. They launch a substantial number of unmanned payloads, and could obviously launch more manned flights if they had a good reason to do so. Would anyone care to speculate on the goals of their human spaceflight program?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 01/16/2016 04:02 AM
They've actually backed off their human spaceflight program a bit. I was at a talk a few months ago where a person who observes their program noted that they had moved the date for their operational space station program--I think by a year or two. He noted at the time that they had been providing a consistent date for years, and so when they moved it that was an important shift.

They always had a slow pace, but their announced plans from a few years ago indicated that it was likely to pick up. It has not picked up. I think that their cooling down economy is one of the reasons.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 01/16/2016 04:05 AM
Launch of the Tian He core module has always been in 2018, as far as I understand. No slip that I'm aware of. Any reference to actual dates from your friend?

Here's a slide from a 2011 presentation giving a date of "Around 2020" for the station and a 2014 paper which mentions the 2018 first launch date, with completion in 2022. Tian Gong 2 was scheduled for launch in 2015, but is launching this year, which is a one year delay. The reason for that is most likely technical, due to the station being modified so that the new Tianzhou cargo spacecraft can dock and transfer propellant.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 01/16/2016 04:33 AM
I think it was a completion date that slipped, not initial launch date. I'm trying to remember who said it and where. It was a talk in Washington, DC. Could have been Dean Cheng.

I'll ask around. Anyway, it was a western expert who has focused on their program.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 01/16/2016 08:29 PM
They've actually backed off their human spaceflight program a bit. I was at a talk a few months ago where a person who observes their program noted that they had moved the date for their operational space station program--I think by a year or two. He noted at the time that they had been providing a consistent date for years, and so when they moved it that was an important shift.

They always had a slow pace, but their announced plans from a few years ago indicated that it was likely to pick up. It has not picked up. I think that their cooling down economy is one of the reasons.

Slipping of completion data is hardly a sign of backing off a program.  And the so-called cooling of the economy is just a drop from a hige growth rate to a good one.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 01/18/2016 07:14 AM
there was a workshop in Beijing earlier this month on the Chinese asteroid mission.
details (in Chinese) are here: http://www.chinaspaceflight.com/satellite/Deepspace/Asteroid-Exploration/Asteroid-Probe.html
the mission outline, depicted here (http://www.chinaspaceflight.com/usr/uploads/2015/11/09/1447067656334384.jpg), shows launch in 2022, rendezvousing with Apophis for 7 months, a flyby of 2002 EX11 and finally rendezvous and landing on 1996 FG3.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phil Stooke on 01/18/2016 06:00 PM
"They always had a slow pace"

Certainly compared to the (almost literally) breakneck pace of the US and Soviet developments in their early years.  But that pace was unsustainable, and I would suggest that China's rate of human spaceflight development is much more reasonable.  A stretch of a couple of years in a long term program is not much of a concern. 
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 01/19/2016 04:21 AM
"They always had a slow pace"

Certainly compared to the (almost literally) breakneck pace of the US and Soviet developments in their early years.  But that pace was unsustainable, and I would suggest that China's rate of human spaceflight development is much more reasonable.  A stretch of a couple of years in a long term program is not much of a concern.

Except the pace in terms of specific bench isn't very much different.  The difference is the number of missions needed to achieve it.


Period from 1st mission to 1st multi-crew mission   Ch - 2 years; USSR - 3 years; US - 4 years
Missions from 1st mission to 1st multi-crew mission   Ch - 1; USSR - 6; US - 6
Mission-days from 1st mission to 1st multi-crew mission Ch- 1; USSR - 12; US -   5
Period from 1st mission to 1st space walk   Ch - 5 years; USSR -    4 years; US - 4 years
Missions from 1st mission to 1st space walk Ch - 3; USSR - 9; US 10
Mission-days from 1st mission to 1st space walk   Ch - 6; USSR - 13; US - 6
Period from 1st manned mission to 1st docking   Ch - 8 years; USSR - 7 years; US - 6 years
Missions from 1st manned mission to 1st docking Ch - 4; USSR - 12; US - 10
Period from 1st manned mission to 1st manned docking   Ch - 9 years; USSR -    8 years; US - 6 years
Missions from 1st manned mission to 1st manned docking   Ch - 5; USSR - 12; US - 13
Mission-days from 1st mission to 1st docking   Ch - 9; USSR- 18; US - 44
Period from 1st mission to 1st station/laboratory    Ch - 9 years; USSR - 10 years; US - 12 years
Missions from 1st mission to 1st station/laboratory Ch - 5; USSR - 17; US -   22
Mission-days from 1st mission to 1st station/laboratory Ch - 9; USSR - 38; US - 160
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 01/19/2016 05:27 AM
Could you please explain what you mean by "mission-days"?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: tonyq on 01/19/2016 08:46 AM
Could you please explain what you mean by "mission-days"?

It appears that he means the aggregate number of days that people were in space from all missions flown, to that point in time. That said, I think there is some rounding up, or perhaps not including part days, as I can't reconcile all the numbers exactly. In the example below, the USSR seems to be understated (nearer to 16 days, Vostoks 1 to 6) and the US overstated (at best, 3 days for all Mercury flights)!

For example:-

"from 1st mission to 1st multi-crew mission  Ch- 1; USSR - 12; US - 5"



Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 01/19/2016 09:23 PM
Could you please explain what you mean by "mission-days"?

It appears that he means the aggregate number of days that people were in space from all missions flown, to that point in time. That said, I think there is some rounding up, or perhaps not including part days, as I can't reconcile all the numbers exactly. In the example below, the USSR seems to be understated (nearer to 16 days, Vostoks 1 to 6) and the US overstated (at best, 3 days for all Mercury flights)!

For example:-

"from 1st mission to 1st multi-crew mission  Ch- 1; USSR - 12; US - 5"

Pretty much what I did.  I rounded up in all cases - all the Mercury flights together didn't make up a single day, for example.

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/02/2016 09:16 PM
I have not seen this link about the assembly of the multi-module space station posted here.  Apologies if it has been poste already elsewhere.

Some interesting photos of work in progress, module names, and assembly.

  http://www.chinaspaceflight.com/css/Tianhe/Tianhe.html
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: M_Puckett on 02/11/2016 11:20 PM
http://sinodefence.com/2015/12/15/china-develops-next-generation-crew-vehicle/
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 02/12/2016 03:43 AM
http://sinodefence.com/2015/12/15/china-develops-next-generation-crew-vehicle/

That's a December 2015 article based upon a January 2014 paper that appears to have been theoretical, not reporting on an active development program.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Danderman on 02/13/2016 12:25 AM
The images of the core module appear to show a copy of the Mir core module. However, the lateral power modules appear to be clones of the prospective NEP. Modules, which don't exist yet.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 02/17/2016 09:04 PM
http://gbtimes.com/china/china-outlines-its-long-term-vision-space-science

China outlines its long-term vision for space science
Andrew Jones
2016/02/16


China has emerged as a major player in space over the last decade or so, most notably for its human spaceflight endeavours and robotic exploration of the Moon. Despite having developed a range of advanced space capabilities and technologies, space science has been low down on the country’s agenda. But that is now changing.
 
In December China launched a probe to begin a timely hunt for dark matter, which will be followed this year by three more space science missions focussing on quantum entanglement and photon ‘teleportation’, x-ray astronomy, and space life science.
 
Before this China’s only space science missions were the Double Star programme with the European Space Agency (ESA) and the Yinghuo-1 Mars probe aboard Russia’s Phobos-Grunt mission, which was terminated when the rocket failed to leave Earth orbit.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phillip Clark on 02/17/2016 09:08 PM
What about Shijian 1, the trio of Shijian 2 satellites and Shijian 4?   They were scientific missions as well.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 02/18/2016 05:31 AM
and the Chang'e series of lunar probes, although they are military-run, they produce good, world-level science
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: ace5 on 02/21/2016 04:44 PM
This is a video tour of TG-1 interior.
Does anyone knows if there is already a similar video for TG-2?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzknxE3JtDc
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 03/06/2016 02:00 PM
everything you wanted to know about the Einstein Probe X-ray astronomy satellite

Exploring the Dynamic X-ray Universe: Scientific Opportunities for the Einstein Probe Mission
http://www.cjss.ac.cn/EN/abstract/abstract2204.shtml

Quote
Time-domain astrophysics will enter a golden era towards the end of this decade with the advent of major facilities across the electromagnetic spectrum and in the multi-messenger realms of gravitational wave and neutrino. In the soft X-ray regime, the novel micro-pore lobster-eye optics provides a promising technology to realise, for the first time, focusing X-ray optics for wide-angle monitors to achieve a good combination of sensitivity and wide field of view. In this context Einstein Probe, a soft X-ray all-sky monitor mission, was proposed and selected as a candidate mission of priority in the space science programme of the Chinese Academy of Sciences. This paper reviews the most important science developments and key questions in this field towards 2020 and beyond, and how to achieve them technologically. It also introduces the Einstein Probe mission, including its key science goals and mission definition, as well as some of the key technological issues.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 03/08/2016 01:57 AM
Due to having job obligations over the few months, I wasn't quite able to catch up the recent developments over the Chinese side and - surprisingly - some of them were skipped over completely on this forum (e.g. I'm surprised that most of the CZ-5 WDR and pad operation tests photos taken late last year were missing here....). With many things being revealed over the past week (big Communist Party congress in progress right now  ;)) and I having a little bit more spare time in hand, I may take some time right now to summarize the latest developments in China's new rockets, new spaceports, new space stations etc.  ;)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Nordren on 03/08/2016 06:22 AM
Due to having job obligations over the few months, I wasn't quite able to catch up the recent developments over the Chinese side and - surprisingly - some of them were skipped over completely on this forum (e.g. I'm surprised that most of the CZ-5 WDR and pad operation tests photos taken late last year were missing here....). With many things being revealed over the past week (big Communist Party congress in progress right now  ;)) and I having a little bit more spare time in hand, I may take some time right now to summarize the latest developments in China's new rockets, new spaceports, new space stations etc.  ;)

Yes, there seems to be a lot of interesting quotes at this government show, beyond the usual reiteration of big projects to show off a bit, likely due to the new five year plan (and possibly to distract from the economic situation).

There's been a few mentions of a crewed mission to the Moon (regarding Chang'e-5 as a stepping stone, Long March 9 development, statements of capability), and discussion of research as part of plans to put a solar array (http://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/1922390/china-sets-laboratory-research-building-solar-power) in GEO.

Beyond this, an official from the General Arms Department talked of strategic use and development of cis-lunar space, hinting at space-based solar power, even a power station on the Moon and use of water at the poles for propellant. A curious quote indeed:

"The future of China's manned space program, is not a moon landing, which is quite simple, or even the manned Mars program which remains difficult, but continual exploration the earth-moon space with ever developing technology."  -- Exploiting earth-moon space: China's ambition after space station (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2016-03/08/content_23775949.htm) (Xinhua)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Proponent on 03/08/2016 02:14 PM
"The future of China's manned space program, is not a moon landing, which is quite simple, or even the manned Mars program which remains difficult, but continual exploration the earth-moon space with ever developing technology."  -- Exploiting earth-moon space: China's ambition after space station (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2016-03/08/content_23775949.htm) (Xinhua)

"The earth-moon space will be strategically important for the great rejuvenation of the Chinese nation," said the national lawmaker."  I wish leaders in other countries could think that way too (I already hear Mitt Romney laughing).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 03/09/2016 05:26 AM
Well, here's some slightly explosive news: the main payload on the first LM-7 launch in June will be......a scaled-down prototype capsule of China's next generation human spacecraft!  ::)

This was apparently rumored some time ago, but now Xinhua News has officially confirmed it (http://news.xinhuanet.com/politics/2016lh/2016-03/08/c_1118269813.htm)!

Also the optical sky survey telescope originally to be carried on one of the Chinese space station modules have now been spun off into a free-flyer to be tendered by the station (hmm......didn't Jim et al. think that an astronaut-tendered Hubble is a bad idea?  ::)). The telescope will be a 2 meter diameter one with Hubble-like resolution and 300 times Hubble's FOV. It was claimed that if it could work for a decade, it can scan 40% of the sky (around 17500 square degrees).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 03/09/2016 05:35 AM
Well, here's some slightly explosive news

according to a French forum, the 2020 Mars orbiter+lander+rover has also been recently given the go ahead from the government
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 03/09/2016 05:41 AM
Well, here's some slightly explosive news

according to a French forum, the 2020 Mars orbiter+lander+rover has also been recently given the go ahead from the government

Yup, launching in the 2020 window and landing in 2021: http://digitalpaper.stdaily.com/http_www.kjrb.com/kjrb/html/2016-03/05/content_333012.htm?div=-1 (http://digitalpaper.stdaily.com/http_www.kjrb.com/kjrb/html/2016-03/05/content_333012.htm?div=-1)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Infinitesky on 03/09/2016 06:02 AM
Well, here's some slightly explosive news

according to a French forum, the 2020 Mars orbiter+lander+rover has also been recently given the go ahead from the government
This is true, it may be very risky, but the application has continued for so many years, so the opportunity to be valuable, and hope to complete more tasks.
Message was confirmed a few days ago.
The probe will reach Mars in 2021.
If successful, maybe the 2028 Mars sample return mission will be accepted  (just maybe).
I wish all the best.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 03/09/2016 09:39 AM
Here are some Bing translations from the article.

"Eyes of the universe: bihabo angle is more than 300 times bigger Survey Telescope" Zhou said will launch a separate optical module of more than 10 tons in the future, maintain common rail with space station flight. "Plans to set up a set of two meters in diameter in the optical module of the Survey Telescope, resolution equal to the Hubble, fov is Hubble's more than 300 times. If ten years in orbit, for 40% of the area, about 17,500 square area were observed. "Zhou said.

Also working on the development of the next generation of manned Earth transportation ideas, will aim at reusable targets with a view to further reducing the cost of space transportation and improve efficiency.

Zhou said this year until the first half of next year, China will implement the manned space lab mission to verify future space technologies. Current Temple on the second completed final Assembly, the system is being prepared for war.

Launch in the third quarter of this year the second. 11th Shenzhou spacecraft will carry two male astronauts docked with the temple on the second completion, and resides in space for 30 days. The manned space mission this year will enter a new stage of application development, conducted a number of experiments in the temple on the second.

"Finished 11th and Shenzhou spacecraft rendezvous and docking and space science experiments, Temple on the second in 2017 will be verified in the first half-day boat, first cargo spacecraft docking supplies technology and resources. "Zhou said.

"The long seventh flight: carrying a manned reentry capsule"

Nontoxic cleaner next-generation midsize carrier rocket long March seventh will be first flew in June this year. It will be powered by a new scaled down reentry capsule, which is the innovation of China's manned space exploration program. Zhou said that launch tasks include testing rockets and spacecraft re-entry two new products, which is China's manned space engineering to bear, saving efficient and vivid interpretations of the development concept.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 03/09/2016 06:30 PM
this week's Nature includes a long article on China's LISA-like gravitational wave mission
http://www.nature.com/news/chinese-gravitational-wave-hunt-hits-crunch-time-1.19520
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 03/10/2016 07:48 PM
http://gbtimes.com/china/chinas-space-station-2-arms-wings-and-chinese-hubble

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 03/17/2016 07:59 AM
From Xinhua China to establish first commercial rocket launch company: scientist (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-03/15/c_135190776.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phillip Clark on 03/17/2016 08:16 AM
From Xinhua China to establish first commercial rocket launch company: scientist (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-03/15/c_135190776.htm).

We know and love the Kuaizhou-1 launch vehicle which has flown two successful missions and we know that Kuaizhou-11 coming along.

What about variants -2 to -10?   Or could Kuaizhou-11 be a mis-reading of the Roman numerals for 2 being used for some reason?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: russianhalo117 on 03/17/2016 12:15 PM
This is a video tour of TG-1 interior.
Does anyone knows if there is already a similar video for TG-2?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzknxE3JtDc
it has not finished assembly for this years launch yet
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: russianhalo117 on 03/23/2016 05:08 PM
Not sure where else to put this since I don't see a Chang'e 4 thread. A few quotes from Zou Yongliao via Emily Lakdawalla from LPSC2016 about it:

Quote
Emily Lakdawalla ‏@elakdawalla 24h24 hours ago

Yongliao: Chang'e 4 will land near center of south-pole Aitken basin, launching late 2018 or early 2019. #LPSC2016

Quote
Emily Lakdawalla ‏@elakdawalla 24h24 hours ago

Yongliao: 2 cameras on Chang'e 4 lander and 3 payloads onboard rover will be the same as those on Chang'e 3. No APXS. #LPSC2016

Quote
Emily Lakdawalla ‏@elakdawalla 24h24 hours ago

Yongliao: Chang'e 4 rover will have no APXS because no arm. Has an LET detector instead. No one in room can figure out what LET stands for

( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_energy_transfer ?)

Quote
Emily Lakdawalla ‏@elakdawalla 24h24 hours ago

Alian Wang is grilling Yongliao on why land in the south pole-Aitken basin and not bring APXS to measure chemistry?!? #LPSC2016

Quote
Emily Lakdawalla ‏@elakdawalla 23h23 hours ago

Answer to Alian's question seems to be that main goal of Chang'e 4 is to do radio astronomy from radio-quiet lunar farside. #LPSC2016

Quote
Emily Lakdawalla ‏@elakdawalla 23h23 hours ago

Scientists in the room desperately proposed instruments China could put on an armless rover to do lunar farside chemistry. #LPSC2016
It might be buried a few pages back and may require manually looking through all of the threads:
Look in here (as all of the other flown Chang'e mission threads are in here until there missions are terminated): http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=49.0
and: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=12.0
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: NovaSilisko on 03/23/2016 05:34 PM
I found it. Silly of me to go by the apparently-erroneous "List of Chang'e threads" list. I'll delete my post and re-post it on the right thread.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: limen4 on 03/25/2016 11:20 AM
Chinaspaceflight.com presented documents of the China NOSTA (National Office for Science and Technology Awards, see also http://www.nosta.gov.cn/upload/2016slgb/jb_219/303-4008.html), which describe (dynamic?) satellite sensor developments. I was able to extract some interesting details:
-   The payload of the (27) August 2015 launch was xx-9(05).Very likely xx stands for Jianbing
-   A series of KX satellites is under development at the DFH Satellite Co. Beijing
-   YH-1, YH-2 satellite constellations are under development at Aerospace DFH development Ltd. Shenzhen. It is different from the Yinghuo YH small sat developed by CAS Shanghai
-   A CX-5 satellite and a CX-6 satellite constellation are under development at SECM Shanghai. A single CX-6  spacecraft was allready shown at a poster dealing with the Chinese-French SVOM project

Because the documents are only available in an image format an automatic translation is not possible. Maybe some of our Chinese friends can help to translate and to give a summary about those and the other space missions which are evaluated in the document.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 03/26/2016 03:48 AM
From Xinhua China to establish first commercial rocket launch company: scientist (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-03/15/c_135190776.htm).

We know and love the Kuaizhou-1 launch vehicle which has flown two successful missions and we know that Kuaizhou-11 coming along.

What about variants -2 to -10?   Or could Kuaizhou-11 be a mis-reading of the Roman numerals for 2 being used for some reason?

If the Chinese forums are to be believed (http://bbs.9ifly.cn/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=11154&pid=387258), then I don't think so, because people hints that there's a KZ-21 planned after KZ-11. ;)

Hmm....the relationship between KZ-11 and CZ-11 (or CASIC and CAST) is actually kinda funny. Now I still need some free time to write about them.....  ;)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Liss on 03/26/2016 04:08 PM
limen4, I believe they discuss a high-speed star sensor used in all these spacecraft. A pdf at http://www.sdns.cutech.edu.cn/cn/rootfiles/2016/01/04/1451863628564355-1451863628770031.pdf has most of these names and it's online translatable.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: input~2 on 03/27/2016 07:41 AM
"Medium and Long Term Development Strategy of China’s Civil Space Infrastructure" presented at UNCOPUOS
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: limen4 on 03/28/2016 05:18 PM
limen4, I believe they discuss a high-speed star sensor used in all these spacecraft. A pdf at http://www.sdns.cutech.edu.cn/cn/rootfiles/2016/01/04/1451863628564355-1451863628770031.pdf has most of these names and it's online translatable.

Thank you, Liss. Some additional results from translation:
-   SJ-16 (launched 25 Oct 2013): Electronic reconnaissance satellite
-   YG-27 = xx-9(05) (launched 27 Aug 2015): Military reconnaissance satellite for high-resolution maritime observation
The text contains also some information concerning the 19 July 2013 launch. The translation yields: “China's first space-based ×× carrying and transport craft was successfully launched, with major strategic military significance”.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Infinitesky on 04/04/2016 08:07 AM
I don't know if anyone ever reprinted, but this is a good suggestion, of course, perhaps can not be adopted finally.


Quote

Is there still a chance to cooperate with China on the space station program? I think the answer is yes. This is the proposal I present here: a “coordinated space station formation” (or group, fleet, column, queue, etc.) consisting of two space stations, the ISS and the CSS, and more in the future.

The concept is that the two stations fly in the same orbit—the 51.6 degree orbit used by the ISS—maintaining a certain separation, such as 100 kilometers. Either station runs independently but can also work jointly to support each other. Visiting vehicles, with cargo and crew inside, can move quickly and easily from one station to another. This “multi-station formation” has the following major advantages that a standalone station does not have:

Mutual rescue: in case of an emergency on one station where its rescue vehicles are damaged, as long as one crewed transportation vehicle at any of the stations is available, it would be possible to transfer the crew to another station to wait for later vehicles to bring them back to the Earth. The two stations provide a shelter for each other, which is extremely important for both the aging ISS and the Chinese, who have little experience on long-duration space station operation. It would be a capability never before realized in the history of space flight and will provide a doubled safety guarantee to both crews.

Mutual support: the two stations provide redundancy on many basic capabilities and can also support each other, especially when there is something one station lacks. For example, sharing of orbit re-boosting vehicles, storage space and supplies, ground-station data links, onboard medical support, and back-up docking/berthing ports, etc. The free-flyer telescope planned for the Chinese station can also be serviced by the ISS, if needed. Without such mutual support capability, as currently on ISS, the same job will cost more and even need a new launch to complete.

Joint experiment: it enables experiments relying on two stations, for example, laser communication and long baseline astronomical observation. And also, the dual-station model makes it possible to do the same experiment simultaneously on two stations for comparison. In fact, it opens a door for innovative experiments we have never imagined before.

Crewed formation flying: in the early days of space flight, there have been two crewed spacecraft flying closely, but they all were short-duration flights. Crewed formation flight may be valuable for future human deep-space missions. It provides more redundancy and flexibility for long-duration missions. This proposal provides a chance to experiment with this concept.

Implementing such a space station formation will be much easier for the Chinese than giving up the CSS and joining the ISS. But still, a lot of work needs to be done.





More details:
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/2944/1 (http://www.thespacereview.com/article/2944/1)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phillip Clark on 04/04/2016 08:37 AM
A good start would be for everyone to use the androgynous docking units that were pioneered on the Apollo-Soyuz programme and which only the Chinese are using at present.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: baldusi on 04/04/2016 12:52 PM
Actually, the ISS USOS is moving to the IDSS and the Chinese stated that they wanted to adapt their APAS implementation to the new standard. So, I would guess that by 2020, both stations will have IDSS compatibility.
I also remember the the Node+MLM was to have new docking ports, but I guess those new are SSVP-M8000, not IDSS compatible.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: russianhalo117 on 04/04/2016 07:09 PM
Docking Rings on UM are to be a hybrid combination in that it combines IDSS with the Russian Drogue design and there will be holes present for the Petals to be installed via EVA. The UM docking Rings themselves comply with the IDSS Standard.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Lsquirrel on 04/15/2016 08:34 AM
china future luna Exploration plan:
2018,chang'e-4,far side landing
2023,chang'e-6?, farside sample return
2025,south pole landing&cruise
2027,north pole landing &isru
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phil Stooke on 04/15/2016 05:06 PM
Very interesting!  I am surprised the farside sample return is in 2023.  It would need the L2 relay satellite, which is supposed to fly in 2018 to support CE4, and said to have a 3 year operating life.  Of course it might last longer, but I would still have expected CE6 to fly in about 2021.  But these polar missions are completely new - to me, anyway.  Nice to see the Moon is not left out of future plans.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 04/15/2016 05:24 PM
Very interesting!  I am surprised the farside sample return is in 2023.  It would need the L2 relay satellite, which is supposed to fly in 2018 to support CE4, and said to have a 3 year operating life.
Chang'e-2 has clocked 5 years, with the original planned life of 6 months, i think they can reasonably expect a good life out of the relay.

The slide omits CE5 for some reason ?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phil Stooke on 04/15/2016 11:11 PM
"The slide omits CE5 for some reason ?"

It only starts after CE5, which is planned for launch in 2017.  The mission numbering is getting out of order.  I note that the slide doesn't use the name Chang'E 6 for the farside mission in 2023.

Informally, I was told (in March at LPSC) of a landing site 'near the Apollo Basin' for CE4 and CE6, but 'near' may be pretty loose.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Nordren on 04/21/2016 09:58 AM
So, China's first national 'Space Day' will be this Sunday, April 24th (marking anniversary of DFH-1 launch in 1970 & this year being 60 years of Chinese aerospace), so we can expect an torrent of news (especially old news) and announcements. So far:

China plans to launch core module of space station around 2018 (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-04/21/c_135299712.htm) (Xinhua)
China developing robotic arms for space stations: sources (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-04/21/c_135300461.htm) (Xinhua)
China to have over 200 orbiters by 2020 (http://www.china.org.cn/china/2016-04/21/content_38295861.htm) (China.org.cn)
China scientists develop space 3D printer  (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-04/19/c_135294249.htm)(Xinhua)
China testing own reusable rocket technologies (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-04/21/c_135300443.htm)

In Chinese (http://news.xinhuanet.com/2016-04/21/c_1118695968.htm), there are quotes on the major projects for the 13th Five Year Plan period (2016-2020), including same old dates/info for Chang'e-4 & -5, Beidou, CHEOS, Mars 2020, etc.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Infinitesky on 04/21/2016 12:07 PM
So, China's first national 'Space Day' will be this Sunday, April 24th (marking anniversary of DFH-1 launch in 1970 & this year being 60 years of Chinese aerospace), so we can expect an torrent of news (especially old news) and announcements.

Most of the news has been released during the two sessions, so I think maybe no more news about LM - 9 and the manned lunar landing project, but this weekend there will be a lot of lectures for the public in college.
In the BBC interview before, the conversation had suggested that the long-term plan is manned lunar landing after Chang 'E project, and even try to establish a research base(with cooperation), but the government may temporarily not interested.



Well, I'm delighted to be confirmed my prediction was wrong (LM-9 has begun to project demonstration stage)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Infinitesky on 04/28/2016 11:58 AM
Something new, as the PDF is in Chinese, so I summarize briefly:

1.CSS will consist of four modules, three fixed modules (one core module and two laboratory modules), and a telescope (optical module)in the same orbit.

2. The second laboratory module renamed MengTian (dream sky or dream space),the telescope (optical module) named XunTian(space patrol/observation).

3. The station has 26 (4 + 9 + 13) standard experiment cabinets (storages), 67 standard interfaces for exposed payloads (two laboratory modules:30 + 37), three airlocks, three manipulators (large or small).

4. Support 3-6 astronauts(crews) to work, and can be extended to six modules (not including XunTian).It will weighs about 180 tons then, and welcome international cooperation.

5. The length of the Shenzhou-11 mission will last 33 days, which will dock with Tiangong-2 for 30 days.

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 04/28/2016 12:34 PM
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 04/28/2016 12:36 PM
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 04/28/2016 12:37 PM
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: gosnold on 04/28/2016 06:54 PM
Thank you. Google translate tells me that the co-orbiting telescope will be used for astronomy (mostly cosmology). Could not find the diameter though.

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 04/28/2016 07:00 PM
Thank you. Google translate tells me that the co-orbiting telescope will be used for astronomy (mostly cosmology). Could not find the diameter though.

I think a previous source said 2.0 meters, so a bit smaller than Hubble.

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 04/29/2016 05:34 AM
The launch dates in that PDF. No new information, but confirms what was previously given.

2016-06 CZ-7 Test Launch
2016-09 Tian Gong 2
2016-10 Shenzhou 11
2017-04 Tianzhou 1
2018 Tian He (core module)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 04/29/2016 06:41 AM
Bing Translation of the slides.

1. Research progress of construction of the space station
China manned space Engineering Office
The year 2016.04.23

2. Space station project description
September 25, 2010, the Central Government approves construction of the space station.

Construction of the space station's main tasks

In around 2020, built and operated manned space station, which became an independent master near long-term manned space flight technology, were involved in near-Earth space science and technology for a long time testing and the comprehensive development and utilization of space resources of the country.

3. Basic ideas about space station construction
• in line with China's national conditions, not for something to do, and something; the modest size, save space; has outstanding Chinese elements and core;
• the pursuit of technological progress, fully using advanced technology to build and operate the space station, have complete control of large space facilities construction and in-orbit operations;
• use benefit, made significant innovations in space applications;
• quest for operating economy, take the road of sustainable development.

4. Construction of the space station mission objectives
• build and operate in near-Earth space station, breakthroughs, acquire and develop large and complex space on-orbit assembly and construction, for long-term safe and reliable flight operations management and dimensions technology, upgrading the nation's space technology field and related industries progress of science and technology, enhance the comprehensive national strength.
• breakthroughs, acquire and develop long-term manned space flight in near-Earth space technology to solve low Earth orbit manned space flight for a long time the main medical problem, achieving astronaut healthy living in orbit for a long time and work effectively.

5. • build national space lab. Development of internationally advanced level of capacity in space science and applications, space science and technology in the field tests were carried out, space applications, as well as science education, gets is of great scientific value of the research and application of great strategic significance.
• International (regional) cooperation, to contribute to peaceful development and use of space resources.
• to rail services, earth-moon and deep space manned the demand for lead, test and verify that the relevant key technologies, for the sustainable development of manned space technology and experience accumulated.

6. Overall scheme of space station project

7. Engineering in General
The astronaut system
Space application system
Manned spacecraft system
Cargo spacecraft system
Space laboratory system
Space station systems
Optical system
Long March 2F rocket system
Long March 5B rocket system
Long March 7 rocket system
Jiuquan launch pad system
Hainan spaceport systems
Monitoring and communication systems
Landing field system

8. Space station programme
China's space station named the "Tian Gong", by turning Assembly made the space station rendezvous and docking, and ontology. Basic configuration includes core module, the space station experiment class I and class II, horizontally symmetrical t-shape configuration as the basic topology of space station hatch combination, combination all cabin are located in one of the local horizontal plane.

9. Space station programme
• Main design index
– The module: 3
– The orbital inclination: 42° to 43°
– Orbit: 340~450 km
– In-orbit life: = 10 years
– Number of crew: 3, rotation of up to 6 people
• Core module
– Combination control
– Working and living places
• Laboratory I and module II
– Space science experiments
– Space applications
– Space technology experiments
Cargo ships
Manned spacecraft

10.
• Space station cabin
– 22-ton
– CZ-5B rocket
– Hainan spaceport
• Transportation system
– Cargo ships
- Upward movement of propellant, consumables, equipment and load
– Down to destroy the space station waste
– CZ-7
– Hainan spaceport
• Passenger transportation
– Shenzhou manned spacecraft
– CZ-2F Rocket
– Crew: 3
– The crew rotation: 6 months
– The Jiuquan Satellite Launch Center

11. Space station core module
Core class named for "Tian He", is station of management and control center, is responsible for station combination body of unified management and control, support experiment class, and manned spacecraft, and freight spacecraft, aircraft with rendezvous docking and in rail assembled, has accepted astronaut long-term access and material supplies of capacity, configuration big mechanical arm, has gas gate class function, support carried out space medical and space life science experiment.

12. Space experiment module I
Module I named "Wen Tian", the main task is to support applications in the capsule and the extravehicular test, backup core module part of the platform features, storage of consumables, spare parts and supplies to the space station astronauts goods. Configure the primary airlock support extravehicular activity, configure the small arm.

13. Space Experiment Module II
Module II is named "Meng Tian", the main task is to support applications in the capsule and the extravehicular test, configure goods private airlock, astronauts and robotic arms, together with the support load, equipment in and out of class.
Carrying and docking
Working class
Multifunctional laboratory module
Resource class

14. Space station support
Space station airlock deployed 26 (4 + 9 + 13) load load space, installation of general interface design, supports standard cells, two forms of the cabinet as a whole.

15. Space station cabin layout 67 standard exposes load interface, one experimental class I provide 30, class II with 37. In addition, the windward side in the lab I work cabin platform can be reserved one extended interface hang point and one loading interface in the tail of the core module segment II, IV-quadrant symmetry reserved 2 large hook load interface.
Exposed in the cabin platform (Quadrant III)
Exposed platform (Quadrant III)
Exposed platform (Quadrant I)

16. Crew transportation
The Shenzhou manned spacecraft and carrier rocket Long March 2F together constitute the world transportation system for the crew, mainly for the astronauts and some goods to and from the space station. Each manned docking station for half a year, at the Jiuquan Satellite Launch Center.
The Shenzhou manned spacecraft
CZ-2F Rocket

17. Cargo transportation system
Constituted jointly by the cargo launch vehicles, spacecraft and the Long March 7 ISS cargo transport, primary uplink transporting supplies for the space station, including consumables, propellant, platforms, loading equipment, down to destroy the space station waste. Freight transportation system at the Hainan space launch pad.
Cargo ships
CZ-7 rocket

18. Cargo ships
Cargo ship named "Tianzhou", by the cargo and propulsion module consisting of two class. Modular design, hold a hermetic, semi-hermetic and open three forms, according to the needs of different types of material transport. Cargo ships for the space station orbit control, also has the ability to support scientific experiments. Every cargo ship docking station 1.

19. Long March Seven carrier rocket
Launch of cargo ship the Long March Seven, (CZ-7) launch vehicles for the newly developed a new generation of medium-launch vehicles, bundle 4 boosters, two-stage configuration, using nontoxic liquid oxygen-kerosene engine.
CZ-7 rocket

20. The Long March Five B carrier rocket
Launch space station module the Long March Five B (CZ-5B) rocket is at the Long March Five carrier rocket is developed on the basis of a grade and a half configuration, uses no toxic pollution of liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen and kerosene engines. Its low-orbit capacity and active international mainstream large launch vehicle capacity. At the Hainan space launch pad.

21. Astronauts in orbit to live and work
In the assembly stage of construction of the space station, resident space station astronaut interruption, access, care of the space station, the secondary completion of space station assembly in orbit. After the assembly of the space station construction is completed, the astronauts used a crew rotation, continuous uninterrupted access, care of the space station, the space station. Rotation time 6-10 days.

Each astronaut crew of two or three people. Includes 1 space pilot served as commander, while the remainder constitute according to the tasks required, space pilot, flight engineer and payload experts.

22. Space station Assembly in orbit

23. Space station project application
Station application to build national space laboratory as the goal, ability to take full advantage of the space station, frontiers of science innovative experimental and applied research, and strive to make significant breakthroughs in science and technology.

At present, the completed space station mission planning is presented in our main applications of experimental research on the space station.

24. Main areas of space station
• Space medicine experiment
• Space science research and application
• Space technology experiments

25. Space station application
• Aerospace Medicine
• Space life science and biotechnology
• Microgravity fluid physics and combustion science
• Space materials science
• Microgravity fundamental physics
• Space Earth science and applications
• Space based information technology
• Aerospace technologies
• Space application technologies
• The space environment and space physics
• Aerospace components and parts
• Space Astronomy and Astrophysics.

26. Experiments in the cabin of the station
A Space life science and biotechnology
• Ecological experiment to life cabinet (ESER)
• Biotechnology laboratory cabinet (BER)
• Science glove box and storage cabinets at low temperature (SGRR)

B Microgravity Fluid physics and combustion
• Fluid physics experiments (FPER)
• Two-phase system cabinet (TSER)
• Combustion science experiments (CER)

C Space materials science
• High temperature materials science experiments (MFER)
• Containerless material cabinet (CMER)

D Multidisciplinary experimental support
• Ultracold atomic physics experiments (CAER)
• High precision time and frequency laboratory cabinet (HTFR)

E Microgravity fundamental physics
• High micro-gravity scientific experiments (HMGR)
• Variable-gravity scientific experiments (VGER)

27. Common rail-flying space telescopes
China's first large-aperture and wide field of view space telescopes, common rail and space station flight, was named "Xun Tian".
Survey research:
• the formation and evolution of celestial bodies: stars, galaxies, planets, black holes and quasars formed and evolution
• research on dark matter and dark energy: effect of deformation of weak gravitational lensing observations of galaxies;
• Cosmological research: reconstructing the early density perturbations of the universe;
Technical characteristics:
• Together with Chinese space station orbit
• equipment replacement and maintenance requirements and when docking with the space station
• and the station shared resources, both human and cargo

28. Station expansion
Space station reserve extension interfaces and extensions to support capacity, on the basis of three cabin configurations, have the ability to butt expansion segment, according to the space science and space applications, and the need for international cooperation, extend in due course.

29. Space lab and space station for space station projects in two phases.
2016~2018 Space laboratory
2018~ Space station

30. Space laboratory
Space laboratory main medium-term mandate to breakthrough and grasp the carriage of goods, the astronauts reside, additional propellant, ground mission support and protection technology for a long time, experiments on space science and technology, for the space station construction and operation experience.

31. Space laboratory
June 2016, the Long March Seven away fired a rocket, assessment of new generation medium-launch vehicles program correctness, functionality and performance. And returns the cabin carrying a multipurpose ship scaled model payload flight demonstration.

September 2016 launch second space laboratory, acceptance of manned and cargo spacecraft to visit and conduct space science experiments and technology testing.

32. Space laboratory
October 2016, the 11th launch Shenzhou manned spacecraft, carrying 2 crew, after docking with the temple on the second, for a 30-day hosted trial.

Around April 2017, launch days the boat is first cargo spacecraft, after docking with the temple on the second, adding key technologies such as verifying the propellant, and carrying the load test.

33. Space station stage
In the year 2018 or so, test development and launching a space station core module, built for space station assembly, extravehicular operation, the astronauts reside, such as a space station flight test the key technology for a long time. After the end of the flight test, the test comprehensive assessment of the core module and the space station construction techniques to meet requirements, emission testing module for space station construction.

34.
– At present, the development of China's space station construction work was in full swing, early space station project has full access to the detailed design stage.
– Ongoing space station cabin and the development of new launch vehicles and other related facilities.
– Ongoing space station operation and management and operation of the overall technical and programme evaluation.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 04/29/2016 06:44 AM
Here is an extracted image of the Xun Tian Space Telescope.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 05/04/2016 03:58 AM
AW&ST article on China crewed Lunar ambitions.

http://aviationweek.com/space/china-manned-space-office-advocates-2031-36-moon-landing

"The Chinese manned space program proposes to land people on the Moon by 2031-36 as a follow-up to the space station that it will begin launching around 2018."

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 05/05/2016 11:27 PM
Btw, this is old news but a nice document that gives an overview of where Chinese comsat bus development was headed, as of 2014

http://worldspaceriskforum.com/2014/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/11C_DISCOVERING-NEW-MISSIONS_YE.pdf
( http://aviationweek.com/awin/china-developing-three-commercial-satellite-buses  )

https://www.forecastinternational.com/news/index.cfm?recno=238415

Component technology wise, this is catching up to US and Europe. First  DFH-4E bus should launch early next year.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 05/07/2016 11:52 PM
http://aviationweek.com/space/china-manned-space-office-advocates-2031-36-moon-landing

China Manned Space Office Advocates 2031-36 Moon Landing

May 2, 2016

The Chinese manned space program proposes to land people on the Moon by 2031-36 as a follow-up to the space station that it will begin launching around 2018.

By setting a target period, the China Manned Space Engineering office is evidently seeking to create an expectation among officials and the public that could help the project gain approval at the top of the government.

“We need to do our best to use the coming 15-20 years to achieve the objective of manned lunar exploration,” Lt. Gen. Zhang Yulin, deputy commander of the manned space program, has told a conference.

There has been research on the further development of the manned space program, Zhang says. “The general view is that manned exploration of the Moon is the choice for raising the development level of the manned space effort, a choice that is in accordance with national conditions and development plans.”
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 05/11/2016 02:05 PM
there was recently a workshop at the Beijing Institute of Technology on future Chinese asteroid exploration
http://www.bit.edu.cn/xww/xsjl1/124421.htm

note the slide in the back in this image, including details of a Chinese solar sail project
http://www.bit.edu.cn/images/content/2016-05/20160510153327288596.jpg
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 05/12/2016 04:35 AM
Here's an enhanced version of that slide.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 05/12/2016 04:12 PM
better images of the Chinese solar sail test specimen from China spaceflight on twitter
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 05/13/2016 05:52 PM
http://www.leonarddavid.com/chinas-lunar-farside-mission-scientific-goals-outlined/

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 05/13/2016 06:46 PM
some literature about the SPORT solar polar mission:
http://www.issibj.ac.cn/Publications/Forum_Reports/201404/W020140829517963456181.pdf

Overview of the Solar Polar Orbit Telescope Project for Space Weather Mission
http://www.cjss.ac.cn/EN/abstract/abstract2218.shtml

Quote
The Solar Polar ORbit Telescope (SPORT) project for space weather mission has been under intensive scientific and engineering background studies since it was incorporated into the Chinese Space Science Strategic Pioneer Project in 2011.SPORT is designed to carry a suite of remote-sensing and in-situ instruments to observe Coronal Mass Ejections (CMEs),energetic particles,solar high-latitude magnetism,and the fast solar wind from a polar orbit around the Sun. The first extended view of the polar regions of the Sun and the ecliptic enabled by SPORT will provide a unique opportunity to study CME propagation through the inner heliosphere,and the solar high-latitude magnetism giving rise to eruptions and the fast solar wind.Coordinated observations between SPORT and other spaceborne/ground-based facilities within the International Living With a Star (ILWS) framework can significantly enhance scientific output.SPORT is now competing for official selection and implementation during China's 13th Five-Year Plan period of 2016-2020.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 05/18/2016 12:41 PM
Romania's first cosmonaut praises China's openness to space cooperation (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-05/18/c_135366672.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 05/22/2016 07:27 PM
Any idea of the station's aggregate power?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Infinitesky on 06/01/2016 09:25 PM
Some pictures from Manned Spaceflight & Lunar Exploration Exhibition
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 06/17/2016 03:36 PM
China preparing for a new era of space economy (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-06/16/c_135442743.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 06/17/2016 03:37 PM
China recruits public for space capsule experiment (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-06/17/c_135445148.htm).

China starts half-year human survival experiment for space exploration (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-06/17/c_135445512.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 06/26/2016 01:01 PM
China Voice: China committed to peaceful use of outer space (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-06/26/c_135467283.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: lele on 06/26/2016 01:50 PM
It seems surprising that China choose to livestream the Long March 7 launch, especially with the risks of RUD for a maiden vehicle. Is China trying to be more open with its space program?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Bob Shaw on 06/26/2016 02:01 PM
It seems surprising that China choose to livestream the Long March 7 launch, especially with the risks of RUD for a maiden vehicle. Is China trying to be more open with its space program?

Perhaps Jeff Bezos has been taken on as a marketing advisor!

Good to see, though. I wonder what all the shouting was about during launch?
Title: China's space program
Post by: luhai167 on 06/26/2016 06:58 PM
It seems surprising that China choose to livestream the Long March 7 launch, especially with the risks of RUD for a maiden vehicle. Is China trying to be more open with its space program?
the launch site is near one of the biggest tourist city in China, so if there is a failure, i it will get out anyways. So why not live broadcast, and to be fair, the live image is from private and local TV channels, CCTV only released footage after the successful launch.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 06/26/2016 10:45 PM
China Focus: Long March-7 rocket launches China's five-year space plan (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-06/26/c_135467899.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 07/02/2016 05:10 AM
It was speculated that the YF-650 was shown in the attached photo, at the far end of the row of engines. The YF-650 is an F-1 class single engine for the CZ-9 Moon rocket. In this drawing of the CZ-9, the YF-650 is shown as a single chamber engine. Other drawings show the YF-650 as dual chamber. Its clear from the new captures below, that the large engine is in fact dual chamber. The engine does look pretty big compared to the preson walking behind the engine in the last image. I would be pretty surprised if the Chinese were that far advanced with this engine. Could it be this is just a dual YF-100 as flown on the CZ-7 core and CZ-5 boosters?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: MATTBLAK on 07/02/2016 05:42 AM
Not wanting to indulge in Rocket Lego (honest) but has there been a design for a launcher that has a wider body corestage (6.5 or 7 meters) with 4 or more of the CZ-5's main engines and more of it's strap-on boosters; say, 6x strap-ons? Or am I thinking of the speculative Lunar architecture plans floating about, with a 50 tons to LEO launcher?

NOTE: Such a booster would be a logical extrapolation of the CZ-5, technically easy to do - but the Chinese Space Agency and the govt. in general may prefer to go on to the SHLV, rather than this type of Falcon Heavy-class booster idea.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 07/02/2016 06:26 AM
There was the CZ-5DY. That has six boosters. The core is still 5 m, but with four YF-77 engines.

"Rocket specifications: 5 m core-level binding 6 3.35 m booster; 4 core level, helping push the 2 YF-100 second child 4 YF-77, 5 m diameter fairing; about 1600 t gross weight, Arrow length of 72 m; near-Earth orbit (LEO) of about 50 t capacity."
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: MATTBLAK on 07/02/2016 07:00 AM
Terrific! Going back to the post-Columbia V.S.E. studies of the early 2000's, all the major aerospace players - even with their separate, independent studies - all seemed to come to the conclusion that boosters in the 50 ton class were the best balance between cost, capability and technical risk. It's interesting to see that China hasn't - at least officially - come to the same conclusion.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phillip Clark on 07/02/2016 07:15 AM
I am trying to ascertain whether the CZ-5DY vehicle is simply a paper study or whether it is a funded variant which is planned for development once the CZ-5 and CZ-5B variants have been "tamed".   I have a feeling that it's simply a paper study.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 07/02/2016 02:09 PM
I didn't notice this before. Nature had a short article profiling Wu Ji, "the country’s top space-science official"
http://www.nature.com/news/science-stars-of-china-1.20113#/Wu_Ji
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: russianhalo117 on 07/02/2016 03:30 PM
There was the CZ-5DY. That has six boosters. The core is still 5 m, but with four YF-77 engines.

"Rocket specifications: 5 m core-level binding 6 3.35 m booster; 4 core level, helping push the 2 YF-100 second child 4 YF-77, 5 m diameter fairing; about 1600 t gross weight, Arrow length of 72 m; near-Earth orbit (LEO) of about 50 t capacity."
Its still in development AFAIK. The core stage for the maiden launch has two plugs installed where the third and fourth YF-77 LRE's go. A recent animation on CCTV showed that the core stage is presently designed two support 2-4 YF-77 LRE's.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: baldusi on 07/02/2016 10:24 PM
There was the CZ-5DY. That has six boosters. The core is still 5 m, but with four YF-77 engines.

"Rocket specifications: 5 m core-level binding 6 3.35 m booster; 4 core level, helping push the 2 YF-100 second child 4 YF-77, 5 m diameter fairing; about 1600 t gross weight, Arrow length of 72 m; near-Earth orbit (LEO) of about 50 t capacity."
Its still in development AFAIK. The core stage for the maiden launch has two plugs installed where the third and fourth YF-77 LRE's go. A recent animation on CCTV showed that the core stage is presently designed two support 2-4 YF-77 LRE's.
I've noticed that the Chinese space industry has an amazing capacity of proposing and even developing variants of their rockets. I wouldn't be surprised if the CZ-5DY didn't started as an exercise on a moon mission with something "cheap" to develop, and when a certain California company started touting a very similar payload capacity, the military just wanted to "keep their options open". Just in case.
We'll see how things evolve, but right now the LM-5 will have just the CSS as realistic client. Unless China is developing some monstrous GSO birds for the military. Or they get into dual launching GTO birds. But in both of these cases, they would need a new fairing. Current one would be too short.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 07/03/2016 02:49 AM
Its still in development AFAIK. The core stage for the maiden launch has two plugs installed where the third and fourth YF-77 LRE's go. A recent animation on CCTV showed that the core stage is presently designed two support 2-4 YF-77 LRE's.

Here's are screen captures of the CZ-5 base shown in this Chinese video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=xbgihkJRy3k). I don't see any plugs for an additional two engines.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Bob Shaw on 07/03/2016 03:13 AM

Here's are screen captures of the CZ-5 base shown in this Chinese video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=xbgihkJRy3k). I don't see any plugs for an additional two engines.

You win!
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: MATTBLAK on 07/03/2016 11:18 AM
Yes - no plugs, but it certainly looks like there's room for two more engines there. Some redesign, some propellant tank stretch, 4x uprated engines, strong cryogenic upper stage, six strap on boosters... would make a heck of a good launcher!! ;)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 07/04/2016 07:57 AM
You win!

I appreciate the sentiment, but I think its not a contest of whether one wins by correcting a post, but understanding that everyone makes mistakes (myself included) and that by performing a correction, we learn from our errors and move on.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: russianhalo117 on 07/04/2016 08:45 PM
You win!

I appreciate the sentiment, but I think its not a contest of whether one wins by correcting a post, but understanding that everyone makes mistakes (myself included) and that by performing a correction, we learn from our errors and move on.
must have been old animation i saw.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 07/13/2016 06:23 PM
China to launch 14 new meteorological satellites before 2025 (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-07/04/c_135488144.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 07/13/2016 06:24 PM
China holds space military exhibition (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-07/07/c_135496508.htm).
Title: China's space program
Post by: Star One on 07/15/2016 04:05 PM
China commissions new space tracking ship

Quote
China's latest space tracking ship, Yuan Wang 7 , was formally commissioned on 12 July, according to Chinese media. Built by Jiangnan Shipbuilding, the vessel is 220 m long and displaces 25,000 tonnes. It is highly distinctive, featuring three large dish antennae around 10-12 m in diameter as well as an array of radomes and aerials.

Three other Yuan Wang-class ships (3, 5, and 6) are currently operated by the China Satellite Maritime Tracking and Control Department and are based at Jiangyin on the River Yangtze, near Shanghai.

The Yuan Wang-class ships supplement China's network of land-based tracking stations, which span the breadth of China's 4,500 km land mass.

Quote
The media reports state that Yuan Wang 7 will be used for tracking the Shenzhou-11 manned space mission planned for later this year. During previous Shenzhou launches, four Yuan Wang ships were positioned over a wide area to provide the required tracking.

http://www.janes.com/article/62292/china-commissions-new-space-tracking-ship
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: baldusi on 07/15/2016 07:20 PM
China commissions new space tracking ship

Quote
China's latest space tracking ship, Yuan Wang 7 , was formally commissioned on 12 July, according to Chinese media. Built by Jiangnan Shipbuilding, the vessel is 220 m long and displaces 25,000 tonnes. It is highly distinctive, featuring three large dish antennae around 10-12 m in diameter as well as an array of radomes and aerials.

Three other Yuan Wang-class ships (3, 5, and 6) are currently operated by the China Satellite Maritime Tracking and Control Department and are based at Jiangyin on the River Yangtze, near Shanghai.

The Yuan Wang-class ships supplement China's network of land-based tracking stations, which span the breadth of China's 4,500 km land mass.

Quote
The media reports state that Yuan Wang 7 will be used for tracking the Shenzhou-11 manned space mission planned for later this year. During previous Shenzhou launches, four Yuan Wang ships were positioned over a wide area to provide the required tracking.

http://www.janes.com/article/62292/china-commissions-new-space-tracking-ship
BTW, let me remind you that they are working full time on a telemetry and deep space station in Argentina's Neuquen province. This will give them a 3 point network not unlike the DSN.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Star One on 07/15/2016 08:07 PM
China commissions new space tracking ship

Quote
China's latest space tracking ship, Yuan Wang 7 , was formally commissioned on 12 July, according to Chinese media. Built by Jiangnan Shipbuilding, the vessel is 220 m long and displaces 25,000 tonnes. It is highly distinctive, featuring three large dish antennae around 10-12 m in diameter as well as an array of radomes and aerials.

Three other Yuan Wang-class ships (3, 5, and 6) are currently operated by the China Satellite Maritime Tracking and Control Department and are based at Jiangyin on the River Yangtze, near Shanghai.

The Yuan Wang-class ships supplement China's network of land-based tracking stations, which span the breadth of China's 4,500 km land mass.

Quote
The media reports state that Yuan Wang 7 will be used for tracking the Shenzhou-11 manned space mission planned for later this year. During previous Shenzhou launches, four Yuan Wang ships were positioned over a wide area to provide the required tracking.

http://www.janes.com/article/62292/china-commissions-new-space-tracking-ship
BTW, let me remind you that they are working full time on a telemetry and deep space station in Argentina's Neuquen province. This will give them a 3 point network not unlike the DSN.

At least they remembered to mention that however briefly in the article.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: baldusi on 07/18/2016 10:21 PM
 For the engine specialists. I've seen many alegations that the Chinese based of the YF-100 on the RD-120 samples they obtained on the 90s. But making a comparison table I find that the Ukrainian RD-801 and the YF-100 are basically the same engine. Does anybody has any leads to this?
Some Wikileaks cables say the Ukrainian government vigorously denied this. But the specs of two engines never match in every single measure if they are not intimately related.
Even "copies" without IP transfer show more differences.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: russianhalo117 on 07/18/2016 11:26 PM
For the engine specialists. I've seen many alegations that the Chinese based of the YF-100 on the RD-120 samples they obtained on the 90s. But making a comparison table I find that the Ukrainian RD-801 and the YF-100 are basically the same engine. Does anybody has any leads to this?
Some Wikileaks cables say the Ukrainian government vigorously denied this. But the specs of two engines never match in every single measure if they are not intimately related.
Even "copies" without IP transfer show more differences.
China and Ukraine signed several MoU's and agreements across the space technology regime during the previous Ukrainian Government about two years prior to the presidents exile from Ukraine and the start of the Geopolitical fallout between Ukraine and Russia's allies including China. I have no clue what may have been transferred except that Yuzhnoye Design Bureau (SDO) and PA Yuzhny Machine-Building Plant named after A. Makarov (Yuzhmash) were participants in the exchange agreements.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 07/18/2016 11:31 PM
For the engine specialists. I've seen many alegations that the Chinese based of the YF-100 on the RD-120 samples they obtained on the 90s. But making a comparison table I find that the Ukrainian RD-801 and the YF-100 are basically the same engine. Does anybody has any leads to this?
Some Wikileaks cables say the Ukrainian government vigorously denied this. But the specs of two engines never match in every single measure if they are not intimately related.
Even "copies" without IP transfer show more differences.

There seem to be so many differences between the RD-120 and the YF-100 that I have been always sceptical of the claim, which seems more like the tired old "Chinese copy/steal everything" mantra)

The similarities with the RD-801 are interesting, I had not picked that but before.  However, has the RD-801 even been built tested, let alone flown? Also, with such extreme similarities I wonder how reliable the numbers actually are?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: russianhalo117 on 07/19/2016 12:30 AM
For the engine specialists. I've seen many alegations that the Chinese based of the YF-100 on the RD-120 samples they obtained on the 90s. But making a comparison table I find that the Ukrainian RD-801 and the YF-100 are basically the same engine. Does anybody has any leads to this?
Some Wikileaks cables say the Ukrainian government vigorously denied this. But the specs of two engines never match in every single measure if they are not intimately related.
Even "copies" without IP transfer show more differences.

There seem to be so many differences between the RD-120 and the YF-100 that I have been always sceptical of the claim, which seems more like the tired old "Chinese copy/steal everything" mantra)

The similarities with the RD-801 are interesting, I had not picked that but before.  However, has the RD-801 even been built tested, let alone flown? Also, with such extreme similarities I wonder how reliable the numbers actually are?

Certainly
RD-801 development has been completed. I have found no official confirmation of testing
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 07/19/2016 07:02 PM
China developing water cycle observation satellite (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-07/12/c_135505488.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 07/21/2016 06:32 PM
if you have access to Science, there are a couple of articles on Chinese space science this week:

Red star rising
Quote
China is in the midst of launching a clutch of space science missions, with four put into space within a 13-month span. Its lunar exploration program is also increasingly science-driven, with a sample return mission scheduled for next year and the first ever landing on the far side of the moon planned for 2018. Beginning in 2020, China will launch another round of four science missions and the nation's first Mars probe. Chinese space administrators say that to build on these advances, the space science program needs reliable annual funding, instead of the 5-year lump sums now provided. They also think merging the country's different space agencies could maximize the scientific impact and lead to greater efficiencies.
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/353/6297/342

Who's missing from this picture?
Quote
Space scientists from around the world are lining up to collaborate with their Chinese colleagues in planning, developing, and analyzing the data from scientific missions. The country's two main space programs have cooperative agreements with most of the world's major space agencies. The European Space Agency has gone so far as to officially designate China one of its three official partners, along with Russia and the United States. The big player missing from this action is NASA, which is barred by U.S. Congress from using its funding to cooperate with China or any Chinese-owned company. U.S. scientists say the ban is hindering U.S. interests in space science and exploration.
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/353/6297/345
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 07/21/2016 10:54 PM
For the engine specialists. I've seen many alegations that the Chinese based of the YF-100 on the RD-120 samples they obtained on the 90s. But making a comparison table I find that the Ukrainian RD-801 and the YF-100 are basically the same engine. Does anybody has any leads to this?
Some Wikileaks cables say the Ukrainian government vigorously denied this. But the specs of two engines never match in every single measure if they are not intimately related.
Even "copies" without IP transfer show more differences.

There seem to be so many differences between the RD-120 and the YF-100 that I have been always sceptical of the claim, which seems more like the tired old "Chinese copy/steal everything" mantra)

The similarities with the RD-801 are interesting, I had not picked that but before.  However, has the RD-801 even been built tested, let alone flown? Also, with such extreme similarities I wonder how reliable the numbers actually are?

RD-801 development has been completed. I have found no official confirmation of testing

So the alleged similarities may be more notional than real?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: baldusi on 07/22/2016 12:26 AM
The RD-801 must have been the blueprints that the Chinese got. Even the picture is the same. Just like the RD-810 and the SCE-200.
They send the blueprints and nothing else. Both China and India needed 7 years and over 70 new technologies to manufacture and certify the engine.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 08/02/2016 01:28 PM
Some info for those who monitors tracking ships activity for possibility of launches: their newest tracking ship Yuanwang 7 has been commissioned on July 12 and has already left for the Pacific to support its first launch in a few days time. You may track its activities here: http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:3930471/mmsi:413379290/vessel:YUAN%20WANG%207 (http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:3930471/mmsi:413379290/vessel:YUAN%20WANG%207)

Some info (in Chinese) about the ship can be found here: http://www.chinanews.com/mil/2016/07-19/7943769.shtml (http://www.chinanews.com/mil/2016/07-19/7943769.shtml)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 08/04/2016 12:08 PM
China to expand int'l astronauts exchange (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-07/27/c_135544922.htm).
Title: China's space program
Post by: Star One on 08/31/2016 04:56 PM
China and Ukraine agree to restart An-225 production

Wouldn't surprise me if at least some of these don't get allocated to the Chinese space industry.

http://www.janes.com/article/63341/china-and-ukraine-agree-to-restart-an-225-production
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 09/16/2016 09:27 AM
From Xinhua, China acquires basic technology for manned lunar missions: chief engineer (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-09/16/c_135689902.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Prober on 09/17/2016 06:57 PM
A peek inside AIT Center, hub of China's spacecraft development


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbgYSi5-hgk
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 09/19/2016 06:58 AM
The thermal vacuum chamber looks like it could be big enough for a Lunar Module! :-)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 09/25/2016 08:47 PM
China's space survival experiment goes on well (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-09/20/c_135700743.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 10/20/2016 12:21 PM
Astronauts enter high-tech lab on national TV while scientists start shaping future (http://en.people.cn/n3/2016/1020/c202936-9130015.html).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: SmallKing on 11/01/2016 11:57 AM
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: baldusi on 11/01/2016 05:07 PM
Strange that it has two separate turbopumps, right?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: russianhalo117 on 11/01/2016 05:10 PM
Strange that it has two separate turbopumps, right?
its like they want a FFSC LRE in the future but dont know how so they went with dual GG exaust ducts from the prebruners
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Kryten on 11/01/2016 06:19 PM
It appears to be a modified version of the YF-77 GG hydrolox engine from the CZ-5 core stage.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Comet on 11/01/2016 09:24 PM
Model of LM-11 TEL on display at Zhuhai. The TEL is displayed for the first time.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Prettz on 11/02/2016 06:12 PM
I had a question about the replacement of the YF-75 with the YF-75D, which there doesn't seem to much any discussion about. Why did they develop a mostly all-new engine to replace the YF-75? According to the numbers on wikipedia, besides a minor thrust increase it has an Isp increase of only 4 seconds, or 1%. The new one has multiple restarts, but the original had a restart ability too, and it's not that hard to add more restarts to the gas generator engine, is it? People say expander cycle engines are much more robust, but that wouldn't be the reason to build a new replacement engine, right?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dante80 on 11/03/2016 05:41 AM
Strange that it has two separate turbopumps, right?

It is close to the same design as the YF-77. I assume that it is actually a variant of it. You can find a couple of meaty PDFs about that engine here.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=8447.msg1104075#msg1104076
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: bolun on 12/14/2016 10:59 AM
Space Exploration Plans Unveiled

2016-12-05

The Chinese Academy of Sciences' National Space Science Center has officially unveiled five space exploration plans to be accomplished during the 13th Five Year Plan period (2016-20).

These include an Einstein Probe satellite that will carry two X-ray telescopes of differing sensitivities to search for black holes, gravitational waves, gamma-ray bursts and other phenomena; an Advanced Space-based Solar Observatory to study the relationships between solar magnetic fields, solar flares, and coronal mass ejections; a Water Cycle Observation Mission to improve scientists' understanding of the spatial and temporal distribution of the water cycle and related physical processes, as well as how the water cycle responds to global changes; the Magnetosphere-Ionosphere-Thermosphere Coupling Small Satellite Constellation Exploration Plan, comprised of four small satellites in different orbits that will traverse the polar regions at the same time but at different altitudes, in order to study the outflow of ions from the ionosphere to the magnetosphere; and the Solar Wind Magnetosphere Ionosphere Link Explorer, a joint project between the Chinese Academy of Sciences and European Space Agency to study the interaction between Earth's magnetosphere and the solar wind, while simultaneously monitoring the magnetosphere's plasma environment.

http://english.nssc.cas.cn/ns/headline/201612/t20161205_171613.html
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 12/18/2016 11:25 PM
http://m.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/2055224/china-launches-its-first-fully-owned-overseas-satellite

China launches its first fully owned overseas satellite ground station near North Pole
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 12/27/2016 03:03 AM
Looks like China has just released a new "5 year plan" for their spaceflight program: http://www.cnsa.gov.cn/n6443408/n6465652/n6465653/c6768527/content.html (http://www.cnsa.gov.cn/n6443408/n6465652/n6465653/c6768527/content.html)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 12/27/2016 05:29 AM
Looks like China will continue studying heavy lift (i.e. a Moon rocket) in the next five years. Development will then start, probably around 2021.

"Endeavors will be made to research key technologies and further study the plans for developing heavy-lift launch vehicles. Breakthroughs are expected in key technologies for the overall system, high-thrust liquid oxygen and kerosene engines, and oxygen and hydrogen engines of such launch vehicles. Thereafter the heavy-lift launch vehicle project will be activated."

Chang'e 5 now scheduled for the end of 2017.

"We plan to fulfill the three strategic steps of “orbiting, landing and returning” for the lunar exploration project by launching the Chang’e-5 lunar probe by the end of 2017 and realizing regional soft landing, sampling and return."

Studies on Mars sample return, asteroids and Jupiter exploration.

"It will conduct further studies and key technological research on the bringing back of samples from Mars, asteroid exploration, exploration of the Jupiter system and planet fly-by exploration."

The five year plan after this one should be quite interesting. That might include the formal announcement of a Moon landing plan as well as a Mars sample return mission.
Title: China's new white paper on space activities
Post by: Comet on 12/27/2016 09:17 PM
China just issues a new white paper on space activities, the first since 2011.

 full text: http://en.people.cn/n3/2016/1227/c90000-9159803.html
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 12/27/2016 11:22 PM
One interesting thing to me is that back at least as far ago as 2010 China was talking about sample return by 2017:

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1565/1

In fact, you can probably go back even earlier, probably to around 2005 or so, and find their 2017 sample return goal. Unfortunately, sloppy writers in the West claimed that this was a manned lunar landing goal, not a sample return goal.

The Chinese have actually been pretty consistent when discussing their civil space plans and deadlines. Claims that they are "secretive" are usually made by people who don't do careful research. Certainly China is not as open and communicative as Western space powers, but they are in fact far more open than the Soviets ever were.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 12/27/2016 11:48 PM
One interesting thing to me is that back at least as far ago as 2010 China was talking about sample return by 2017:

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1565/1

In fact, you can probably go back even earlier, probably to around 2005 or so, and find their 2017 sample return goal. Unfortunately, sloppy writers in the West claimed that this was a manned lunar landing goal, not a sample return goal.

The Chinese have actually been pretty consistent when discussing their civil space plans and deadlines. Claims that they are "secretive" are usually made by people who don't do careful research. Certainly China is not as open and communicative as Western space powers, but they are in fact far more open than the Soviets ever were.

It depends on how deep you want to dig (good luck with trying to dig out the Beidou satellite specifications, or how will they be deployed up to completion in 2020), but I'd agree with you on the biggest flagship programs. Beyond that, you have a mixture of entangled rumors and conflicting info out there instead of the Soviet Kosmos blanket.  :P
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 12/28/2016 06:05 PM
I could not find the China space white paper in a single file or website, so I pasted together all the pieces and did a little formatting to the headers. Here it is, 23 pages as a pdf file.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 12/28/2016 09:44 PM
http://www.leonarddavid.com/china-issues-space-white-paper-moon-mars-goals/

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 12/29/2016 02:38 AM
Thanks Blackstar. Confirmation that the "heavy lift launch vehicle" is CZ-9.

"In an associated press conference marking the release of the white paper, vice administrator of the China National Space Administration, Wu Yanhua, stated that China plans to develop a new generation of heavy-lift carrier rocket, the “Changzheng-9” or “Long March-9.”"

"Wu said during the press conference: “There is an old saying in aerospace industry, ‘If you want to develop space industry, you need to work on space rockets first; and if you want to develop space rockets, you need to work on its engines first’. So now we need to make progress in the heavy-lift carrier rocket’s engine first, to create conditions for the whole project. It is planned that the heavy-lift carrier rocket’s maiden flight will be held around 2030.”"

Some screen grabs.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: ZachS09 on 01/02/2017 06:45 AM
Will the Long March 9 heavy-lift rocket use methane and LOX or will it use kerosene and LOX like Long Marches 5, 6, 7, and 8?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phillip Clark on 01/02/2017 07:58 AM
Will the Long March 9 heavy-lift rocket use methane and LOX or will it use kerosene and LOX like Long Marches 5, 6, 7, and 8?

It's supposed to be LOX/kerosene and LOX/LH, but as far as I know they are still considering the use of solid propellant strap-ons as an option.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Torten on 01/21/2017 11:08 AM
Would  I be correct to presume that the Tiangong-3 flight has been cancelled, and the Chinese are going straight for the modular space station after Tiangong-2?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phillip Clark on 01/21/2017 11:23 AM
Would  I be correct to presume that the Tiangong-3 flight has been cancelled, and the Chinese are going straight for the modular space station after Tiangong-2?

Yes.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 01/30/2017 09:00 PM
China looks to Mars, Jupiter exploration (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-01/30/c_136020957.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 01/31/2017 04:28 AM
From the article

"A second Mars probe will bring back samples and conduct research on the planet's structure, composition and environment, Wu said.

Also on the agenda are an asteroid exploration, and a fly-by of the Jupiter system."
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: gongora on 01/31/2017 04:11 PM
Tweet from Peter B. de Selding: (https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/826473718067109888)
Quote
China to UN: Like our Long March 5 (Nov inaugural carried >14,000kg to GTO)? Long March 934 coming in 2021: 66,000kg to GTO, 140,000kg LEO.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phillip Clark on 01/31/2017 04:35 PM
Tweet from Peter B. de Selding: (https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/826473718067109888)
Quote
China to UN: Like our Long March 5 (Nov inaugural carried >14,000kg to GTO)? Long March 934 coming in 2021: 66,000kg to GTO, 140,000kg LEO.

2021 is very early for a CZ-9 variant.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Nordren on 01/31/2017 05:07 PM
Tweet from Peter B. de Selding: (https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/826473718067109888)
Quote
China to UN: Like our Long March 5 (Nov inaugural carried >14,000kg to GTO)? Long March 934 coming in 2021: 66,000kg to GTO, 140,000kg LEO.

2021 is very early for a CZ-9 variant.

Yes, I assume the earlier stated 2030-ish timeframe still stands. This likely refers to mentions in the recent white paper release and press conference that the project will officially start within the current/13th five-year plan period. The vagueness of Chinese (and the translations) at play here, no doubt.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 02/01/2017 06:59 AM
Tweet from Peter B. de Selding: (https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/826473718067109888)
Quote
China to UN: Like our Long March 5 (Nov inaugural carried >14,000kg to GTO)? Long March 934 coming in 2021: 66,000kg to GTO, 140,000kg LEO.

Well, I guess you need to interpret what "activated in next five years" to mean. With China saying a Lunar landing by 2030, my interpretation is that the CZ-9 project will be starting in 2021, although engine development will be occurring before then. I would be very surprised to see a CZ-9 lifting off the pad in 2021.

Of interest, is the picture of CZ-8! Has this been shown before?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: baldusi on 02/01/2017 01:25 PM
AIUI, the CZ-8 is a CZ-7 with solida and an hydrolox upper stage. That would replace the CZ-3 series.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 02/01/2017 01:58 PM
AIUI, the CZ-8 is a CZ-7 with solida and an hydrolox upper stage. That would replace the CZ-3 series.

Sorta - it uses the existing CZ-7 1st stage with the existing CZ-3 series hydrolox upper stage on top as 2nd stage and 2 120 t class SRBs. It will lift about 4.5 tonnes to polar orbits (roughly Antares-Soyuz class) and will be the CZ-4 series replacement (which it will divide - perhaps evenly - with the CZ-6A).

I wanted to write about the related paper some time ago but never quite found the time to do so - maybe I should do it now......
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: baldusi on 02/01/2017 04:22 PM
AIUI, the CZ-8 is a CZ-7 with solida and an hydrolox upper stage. That would replace the CZ-3 series.

Sorta - it uses the existing CZ-7 1st stage with the existing CZ-3 series hydrolox upper stage on top as 2nd stage and 2 120 t class SRBs. It will lift about 4.5 tonnes to polar orbits (roughly Antares-Soyuz class) and will be the CZ-4 series replacement (which it will divide - perhaps evenly - with the CZ-6A).

I wanted to write about the related paper some time ago but never quite found the time to do so - maybe I should do it now......
Please do!! I don't know any Chinese and it's extremely difficult to look for papers through google translate. Not to mention its lackluster performance translating Chinese PDF.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: ZachS09 on 02/01/2017 04:53 PM
Actually, according to http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets_1/China/CZ-8/Description/Frame.htm, the Long March 8 will use two liquid-fuel boosters; both of them have one YF-100 engine each. They will utilize kerosene and LOX.

 The core will use the first stage of Long March 7 and a modified version of the Long March 6 second stage with one YF-115 engine, which indicates that the second stage uses kerosene and LOX.

Look at the "Versions" tab carefully.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 02/02/2017 06:17 AM
The core will use the first stage of Long March 7 and a modified version of the Long March 6 second stage with one YF-115 engine, which indicates that the second stage uses RP-1 and LOX.

The image I posted shows two engines on the upper stage.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: ZachS09 on 02/02/2017 12:46 PM
Okay...this confuses me a bit. One of our sources' pictures is outdated.

Either they did away with LRBs + one second stage engine and went with SRBs and two second stage engines, or it's the other way around.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Blackstar on 02/06/2017 05:07 PM
Two new presentations on China's space programs. The one on the National Space Science Center has a lot of science updates (not planetary).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 03/29/2017 07:54 PM
From Xinhua,

Yuanwang fleet to carry out 19 space tracking tasks in 2017 (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-03/29/c_136167828.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 04/02/2017 03:48 PM
From Xinhua,

State-owned aerospace giant plans to launch 156 minisatellites (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-03/31/c_136174017.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Nordren on 04/25/2017 05:55 PM
Construction began on Monday on China's first commercial space industry center in Wuhan, capital of Hubei province (http://www.ecns.cn/2017/04-25/254735.shtml).

Main investor CASIC wants Wuhan National Space Industry Base to attract at least 100 enterprises involved in the space industry before 2020 and generate 30 billion yuan ($4.36 billion) in annual gross product by then.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Star One on 05/17/2017 04:35 PM
China Great Wall Industry Corp lands Indonesian commercial satellite order

Quote
JAKARTA, Indonesia — China Great Wall Industry Corp. has clinched a contract with an Indonesian joint venture to build a replacement for a satellite that is running out of fuel early due to an underperformed Long March launch.

Palapa Satelit Nusantara Sejahtera, a joint venture of Indosat Ooredoo and Pasifik Satelit Nusantara (PSN), signed the contract for Palapa-N1, a high-throughput Ku-band satellite with 10 Gbps of capacity here May 17 with Beijing-based CGWIC, a subsidiary of China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation.

Quote
In a more expansive agreement than other deals, CGWIC is providing not only the satellite and a Long March 3B launch, but also the ground control system, insurance and financing support for Palapa-N1.

http://spacenews.com/china-great-wall-industry-corp-lands-indonesian-commercial-satellite-order/
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 06/06/2017 11:44 PM
New Chinese astronaut selection and space station missions revealed

http://gbtimes.com/china/new-chinese-astronaut-selection-and-space-station-missions-revealed
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 06/08/2017 03:25 AM
China completes satellite station network (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-05/31/c_136328752.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 06/08/2017 03:29 AM
Spotlight: First China-designed experiment flies to space station (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-06/04/c_136337866.htm).

China prepares for first scientific project aboard Int'l Space Station (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-06/04/c_136339055.htm).

SpaceX Dragon carrying Chinese experiment arrives at space station (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-06/05/c_136342108.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 06/08/2017 03:31 AM
China to conduct at least four manned spaceflight missions in five years (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-06/06/c_136344741.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 06/08/2017 02:26 PM
China's space station to help maintain co-orbital telescope (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-06/07/c_136346691.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 06/08/2017 02:26 PM
China emphasizes peaceful space exploration (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-06/07/c_136346741.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 06/08/2017 02:27 PM
China Focus: Space race or cosmic cooperation? China strongly calls for the latter (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-06/07/c_136346791.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 06/09/2017 05:15 PM
Xinhua Insight: Moon or Mars? Heated discussion on human's next stop (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-06/09/c_136353684.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 06/16/2017 10:28 AM
China to launch four more probes before 2021 (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-06/16/c_136370753.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 06/16/2017 11:59 PM
China has now demonstrated orbital refuelling technology at large scale. Something that US has never really done, apart from sub-scale demos.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-06/15/c_136368681.htm
 
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Space Ghost 1962 on 06/17/2017 02:00 AM
Nice accomplishment. Very similar to Progress. American craft have done small transfers. Likely with bellows.

The nature of these kinds of transfers is limited by the means to station keeping and CMG desaturation. Don't scale well to larger, of the kind that Korolev considered for getting Soyuz to lunar injection.

No where near the scale needed to be useful for propellant depots, which remains to be tested. As well as the more useful transfer of cryogens.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 07/01/2017 06:03 AM
some scientific results from the manned spaceflight program (Shenzhou 8 in particular):
The impact of space environment on gene expression in Arabidopsis thaliana seedlings

http://engine.scichina.com/publisher/scp/journal/SCTS/doi/10.1007/s11431-016-0232-7?slug=full%20text
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: russianhalo117 on 07/01/2017 08:31 PM
AIUI, the CZ-8 is a CZ-7 with solida and an hydrolox upper stage. That would replace the CZ-3 series.
CZ-6A Proposal is also out there:
http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_lau/cz-6.htm

Since Skyrocket updated this CZ-6A now includes lengthened and widened stages with configurations of 0, 2, and 4 liquid boosters of dimensions similar to the boosters on the current CZ-3 family.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 07/24/2017 01:31 AM
This was in the news a few months ago but worth putting it here.

http://english.cas.cn/newsroom/news/201705/t20170515_177061.shtml
Quote
Speaking at an asteroid exploration forum in Beijing on Monday, Ye Peijian, a senior deep space scientist, said that China will in the future "study ways to send robots or astronauts to mine suitable asteroids and transport the resources back to Earth."

While this sounds exciting, it is a far cry from a declaration of a 'space race' with other space-faring nations and private ventures to mine asteroids, and has been widely misinterpreted or exaggerated in press reports.

...
That said, China does have a least asteroid mission likely to take off within the next decade.

One practical step being taken by China in this realm is the development of a mission to flyby, track and collect samples from a near-Earth asteroid. Though not approved, it is understood that at least two teams are working on different variations of this, and at least one will be launched within ten years.


The 'western media' interpretations in question. Comedy gold

China plans asteroid base for interstellar travel and mining  (http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2017/05/10/china-plans-asteroid-base-for-interstellar-travel-and-mining.html)

GOLD RUSH IN SPACE China plans to build asteroid ‘bases’ to mine TRILLIONS of dollars worth of precious metals – and take on the US (https://www.thesun.co.uk/tech/3517223/china-plotting-to-build-bases-on-asteroids-and-mine-billions-of-dollars-worth-of-precious-metals/)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Sam Ho on 08/04/2017 06:39 PM
Article in Nature on China's space science plans.

https://www.nature.com/news/china-s-quest-to-become-a-space-science-superpower-1.22359
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 08/05/2017 07:01 AM
http://www.spacetechasia.com/russia-and-china-to-cooperate-on-moon-exploration-iss-experiments-and-other-space-related-activities-from-2018-2022/

Quote
The agreement will see cooperation between the two countries in the areas of Moon exploration, deep space missions, remote sensing, space vehicles, and ground infrastructure. Other topics include Chinese use of the Russian module of the International Space Station (ISS), and Chinese use of Russian Earth Observation (EO) satellite data.

This announcement comes a month after a meeting between Russian space agency Roscosmos and CNSA in Moscow, which coincided with Russia’s largest airshow, MAKS-2017, where CNSA was an exhibitor.

This cooperation agreement is not new; Russia and China have collaborated closely over the years, with Glavcosmos stating in its website that “the People’s Republic of China has a special place among our commercial partners”, referring to the Russian-Chinese Space Cooperation Programme.

With the 2018-2022 agreement, however, it seems the Russian and Chinese space industries are deepening their relationship. The possible use of the ISS by the Chinese will directly contravene NASA’s directive to bar China from the ISS, which is said to be the reason why China is in the process of building its own space station.

Also, it possibly highlights Russia’s determination to continue operating a space station after 2024, which NASA is uncertain about; to this, Russia has responded by saying it will form its own space station if the ISS is shut down after 2024.
..
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: SmallKing on 08/29/2017 12:50 PM
China, Russia set to ink landmark deal for manned moon missions
Quote
China, Russia set to ink landmark deal for manned moon missions
SPACE CGTN
2017-08-27 21:55 GMT+8
Share 
 
China and Russia are set to sign a milestone agreement on joint space exploration from 2018 to 2022.

The deal is expected to be signed this October and will bring significant benefits to both nations, particularly in manned and future missions to the moon.

The idea and possibility of once again having humans return to the moon have floated around for quite some time, but after this deal, that prospect is likely to turn into a reality.

The bilateral agreement will cover five areas including lunar and deep space exploration, developing special materials, collaboration in the area of satellite systems, Earth remote sensing, and space debris research.

This is not the first space agreement between China and Russia, but it is the first to cover a partnership spanning five years, a period that allows for more ambitious plans and goals to be achieved.

Russia's space industry has made great achievements over the course of its history, but after the collapse of the Soviet Union, its space program has suffered from a chronic shortage of funds.

In order to keep it afloat in the face of ever rising costs, Russia is looking for international partners and collaborators. In addition to the promising deal with China, Russia is also working with the US and Europe.
https://news.cgtn.com/news/31497a4e31557a6333566d54/share_p.html
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Lars-J on 09/01/2017 01:35 AM
I'm not sure what Russia brings to the table to benefit China at this point, but this collaboration might be more for political than technical reasons.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 09/01/2017 01:56 AM
I'm not sure what Russia brings to the table to benefit China at this point, but this collaboration might be more for political than technical reasons.

RHU's and RTG's, at least
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 09/01/2017 01:14 PM
RHU's and RTG's, at least

why? RTG technology is well known in China. After all, Chang'E 3 uses a Chinese RTG
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: AncientU on 09/01/2017 01:16 PM
I'm not sure what Russia brings to the table to benefit China at this point, but this collaboration might be more for political than technical reasons.

Wow.
Never thought I'd hear that (but it could be true).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: SmallKing on 09/01/2017 02:09 PM
I'm not sure what Russia brings to the table to benefit China at this point, but this collaboration might be more for political than technical reasons.
Not really. We already knew YF-100s were derived from RD-120s. R&D independently is always hard, CASC has a strong desire to acquire Russia's powerful engine(RD-180s) and heavy rocket technology these years
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 09/01/2017 03:15 PM
RHU's and RTG's, at least

why? RTG technology is well known in China. After all, Chang'E 3 uses a Chinese RTG

Can you point to an authoritative source confirming that?. According to Rosatom press releases, it was made at VNIIEF, or at least was significantly helped

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/2401/1 ( see comments )

Direct sources:
http://www.sarov.net/news/?id=26276
http://www.sarov.net/news/?id=28098


Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Lars-J on 09/01/2017 04:27 PM
I'm not sure what Russia brings to the table to benefit China at this point, but this collaboration might be more for political than technical reasons.
Not really. We already knew YF-100s were derived from RD-120s. R&D independently is always hard, CASC has a strong desire to acquire Russia's powerful engine(RD-180s) and heavy rocket technology these years

RD-180 may be the only jewel that China is interested in. But as far as the rest, Chinese rockets already out-lift the Russian ones, and the future CZ-9 is not dependent on RD-180 technology.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phil Stooke on 09/01/2017 05:20 PM
"Can you point to an authoritative source confirming that?. According to Rosatom press releases, it was made at VNIIEF, or at least was significantly helped"

Is a Rosatom press release an authoritative source?  Sometimes credit is claimed for a fairly small involvement.  I'm not saying they were not involved, even in a big way, but an outside source would be better.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: savuporo on 09/01/2017 06:35 PM
Well the two articles linked above claim an official contract between GWIC and Glavkosmos, and specifically call out the types of devices being built too. There would likely be other public records in Russian detailing the contract sizes etc.

I'll be lazy and post the google translated versions here. From my admittedly rusty reading of Russian versions, its decently accurate

Quote
20 June 2012, 09:09 - Economics and business
From June 12 to June 15, a working meeting of the delegations of RFNC-VNIIEF and OAO Glavkosmos with Chinese specialists from the Tianjin Institute of Current Sources, the Industrial Corporation "Great Wall", the Center for Moon Research and Space Engineering of the CNPC was held in the Sarov Technopark. This was reported by the press service of the Institute.

The meeting took place within the framework of the Russian-Chinese contract on the moon sounding program. The Chinese side presented the results of the work of the nuclear center for the creation of radioisotope sources of heat and electrical energy.

So, the newest joint development was carried out by EMV Avangard and KB-1 VNIIEF. This is a radionuclide thermal unit with a power of 120 watts. And a radioisotope thermoelectric generator with an output power of 6.5 watts. The KB-1 specially designed a transport packaging for transportation of radionuclide thermal blocks.

At the meeting, specialists of the VNIIEF emergency technical center demonstrated to the Chinese representatives the method of handling the transport packaging. The uniqueness of the kit is the ability to transport nuclear materials not only by road or rail, but also by air.

"The high level of development of VNIIEF is confirmed by a certificate for the safe use of a thermal unit in outer space issued by the Center for the Certification of Rocket and Space Equipment," the source said. A certificate of approval for the construction and transportation of a transport packaging with a thermal unit has been issued by the competent body of Rosatom State Corporation.

Quote
April 17, 2013, 11:38 - VNIIEF
The VNIIEF successfully completed the development, production and supply of 120W radionuclide thermal blocks of space in the PRC. This was reported by the press service of the Institute.

The visit of the delegation of the nuclear center to China was the final stage of fulfilling the contracts between JSC "Glavkosmos" and the Chinese industrial corporation "Great Wall". Chinese experts highly appreciated the quality of the delivered products.

Specialists KB-1, KB-2 and EMZ "Avangard" participated in the implementation of the contracts.

Earlier, the nuclear center supplied the Tianjin Institute of Current Sources with radionuclide blocks with a power of 4 and 8 W and an engineering model of a radionuclide thermoelectric generator.

In 2012, Sarov scientists presentedChinese specialists radionuclide thermal unit - at that time the newest joint development of EMV Avangard and KB-1 VNIIEF. The meeting was attended by representatives of the Center for the Study of the Moon and Space Engineering of the CNDK.

Also,  last year VNIIEF demonstrated isotope blocks at the XII International Exhibition of Nuclear Industry "NIC 2012" in China.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 09/01/2017 07:33 PM
A couple of Chinese papers on CE-3 RHU and the lander thermal control system:

https://www.thermalfluidscentral.org/e-resources/resource.php?id=242
http://jdse.bit.edu.cn/sktcxben/ch/reader/view_abstract.aspx?file_no=20170206&flag=1
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Hungry4info3 on 10/26/2017 02:57 AM
Does anyone know if anything about China's space programme was mentioned during their recent 19th CPC National Congress?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Moon Rabbit on 10/26/2017 04:26 AM
Does anyone know if anything about China's space programme was mentioned during their recent 19th CPC National Congress?

i have read some of the foreign press summary of the opening speech...but nothing was mentioned about their space programs.
 
Here is a youtube of the speech (it is 3.5 hours long though...so i have not sat through it). Will just wait for a written transcript and do a search ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kqn5iI35wEw&t=5665s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kqn5iI35wEw&t=5665s)

And here is the speech without the translation voice over...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtNNr415reM&t=6168s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtNNr415reM&t=6168s)

Btw, there is a Xinhua website dedicated to the 19th CPC National congress. Some written reports...but no mention of their space programs (but i have not read all the reports yet :o)
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/special/19cpcnc/index.htm (http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/special/19cpcnc/index.htm)


Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: SmallKing on 10/26/2017 04:36 AM
Nothing very important I thought, I had updated some space related news into those individual threads. During the 19th National Congress, the only thing they did was to made Xi as China’s most powerful leader since Mao Zedong...
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Moon Rabbit on 10/26/2017 05:07 AM
Nothing very important I thought, I had updated some space related news into those individual threads. During the 19th National Congress, the only thing they did was to made Xi as China’s most powerful leader since Mao Zedong...
At least he is a leader who appreciates Science and technology...including advancement is space exploration (in my opinion).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Moon Rabbit on 10/26/2017 05:19 AM
An article earlier this year (March 2107) highligting some of Xi's positive support for China space programs
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-04/24/c_136232642.htm (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-04/24/c_136232642.htm)

An this one is a gem...you got it right Mr Xi ;D
"The universe is vast and exploration of it will never end," Xi said.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Moon Rabbit on 10/30/2017 11:51 AM
Three times taikonaut, Jing Haipeng was one of the delegate in the recent 19th CPC National Congress. Found this article about what he said during the congress (or rather what he told a reporter)
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-10/21/c_136695873.htm#0-twi-1-35734-7250227817ecdff034dc9540e6c76667 (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-10/21/c_136695873.htm#0-twi-1-35734-7250227817ecdff034dc9540e6c76667)

BEIJING, Oct. 21 (Xinhua) -- Jing Haipeng, the first Chinese astronaut to go into space three times, has voiced his desire to go into space again as a further demonstration of his loyalty to the Communist Party of China (CPC).

"I'm eager to go to space again, be a pioneer in the battle one more time," said the 51-year-old major general and delegate to the ongoing 19th National Congress of the CPC.

"Let the vastness of space witness again the absolute loyalty of a revolutionary soldier, a CPC member and a space warrior," Jing told Xinhua.

"I must give all the people involved in China's manned space program a thumbs-up," Jing said. "China's aerospace industry has achieved one breakthrough after another over the past five progressive years."

"Numerous people have spent their blood and sweat to engrave their loyalty to the Party and the people onto the universe, in the country's journey toward becoming a space power," the astronaut said.

Following his trips on Shenzhou-7 in 2008 and Shenzhou-9 in 2012, Jing's latest mission was on board Shenzhou 11, launched on Oct. 17, 2016. Shenzhou-11 docked two days later with China's first space lab, Tiangong-2, where Jing and the other astronaut Chen Dong lived for 30 days, the longest time a taikonaut has spent in space.

"I grew up in a small village, and my mum and dad were farmers," Jing said. "So far I've realized my dreams one by one and mounted the steps one after another."

"There are words from the bottom of my heart: Never forget it is the training of the Party and the country which enables me to fly higher and higher. As a serviceman, I never forget the care, instruction and guidance of organizations at various levels," said the emotional astronaut.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 11/17/2017 01:53 AM
CASC has announced yesterday some forward looking plans in the future:

- sub-orbital passenger flight systems by 2025
- HLV by 2030
- fully reusable orbital launch vehicles by 2035
- interplanetary transport systems by 2040

Source: http://www.chinanews.com/gn/2017/11-16/8378305.shtml (http://www.chinanews.com/gn/2017/11-16/8378305.shtml) and (English version) https://gbtimes.com/china-sets-out-long-term-space-transportation-roadmap-including-a-nuclear-space-shuttle (https://gbtimes.com/china-sets-out-long-term-space-transportation-roadmap-including-a-nuclear-space-shuttle)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Moon Rabbit on 11/17/2017 05:39 AM
CASC has announced yesterday some forward looking plans in the future:

- sub-orbital passenger flight systems by 2025
- HLV by 2030
- fully reusable orbital launch vehicles by 2035
- interplanetary transport systems by 2040

Source: http://www.chinanews.com/gn/2017/11-16/8378305.shtml (http://www.chinanews.com/gn/2017/11-16/8378305.shtml) and (English version) https://gbtimes.com/china-sets-out-long-term-space-transportation-roadmap-including-a-nuclear-space-shuttle (https://gbtimes.com/china-sets-out-long-term-space-transportation-roadmap-including-a-nuclear-space-shuttle)

Was the nuclear powered space shuttle mentioned in the Chinese article?

From gbtimes
Another target explicitly mentioned for 2040 is a nuclear-powered space shuttle, though no details are revealed. (3rd last paragraph)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Star One on 11/22/2017 07:42 PM
China's Space Exploration Roadmap Reveals Plans for a Nuclear-Powered Shuttle

Quote
By 2030, the Long March 9 rocket will be ready for use. Classified as a “heavy-lift” rocket, it’s capable of carrying over 100 tonnes (220,462 pounds), making it perfect for launching crewed missions to the Moon, and possibly unmanned missions to Mars. By comparison, SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy rocket has a payload capacity of about 63 tonnes (140,660 pounds), though future iterations of the Falcon Heavy are likely to incorporate an increased payload.

Looking ahead to 2035, the CASC wants to make all of its launch vehicles reusable; currently, they’re all single use. Within five years from that time, they expect the introduction of a new generation of rockets and launch vehicles which would be used for interstellar missions, asteroid mining, and “constructing megaprojects such as a space-based solar power station.” The nuclear-powered space shuttle is also set for 2040, but as there are few details about the shuttle at present, it’s unclear if 2040 is when development will begin or when its first launch is expected to take place.

https://futurism.com/china-space-exploration-roadmap-reveals-plans-nuclear-powered-shuttle/amp/
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 12/07/2017 07:58 PM
Interview: China values cooperation in aerospace industry -- Romanian ex-astronaut (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-12/04/c_136799031.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 12/11/2017 07:53 PM
Hadn't noticed this before (announcement from July 2017)

Long March Launch Vehicle Piggyback Opportunities (http://www.cgwic.com/Launchservice/piggyback.html).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Hog on 12/12/2017 04:38 PM
The CNSA(Chinese National Space Agency) sure is doing lots, with a surprisingly small budget. If that US$500 million spec is remotely close.

The USA spends 0.14% of its GDP.
China spends 0.02% of its GDP.
Russia spends 0.06% of its GDP.

USA spends $54.00 per person
China spends $0.92 per person.
Russia spends $9.00 per person.

Their launch rate is increasing historically.  I'm all for seeing Taikonauts on orbit.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 12/15/2017 09:04 PM
China plans remote sensing satellites over South China Sea (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-12/15/c_136828640.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 12/15/2017 09:05 PM
China responds to U.S. "back to the moon" plan (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-12/12/c_136820519.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: vulture4 on 12/21/2017 06:52 PM
There is no indication at all that China is interested in a new "Moon race". If the US wants competition to stir up public interest they will have to look elsewhere.
https://thediplomat.com/2017/12/does-trump-just-kick-off-the-space-race-2-0-with-china/
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 12/23/2017 03:22 AM
There is no indication at all that China is interested in a new "Moon race". If the US wants competition to stir up public interest they will have to look elsewhere.
https://thediplomat.com/2017/12/does-trump-just-kick-off-the-space-race-2-0-with-china/

Lazy journalists and commentators see everything in space as a "race'
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 02/10/2018 05:49 AM
lots of good stuff (at least I guess, since I can't read Chinese) in the latest issue of the Journal of Deep Space Exploration: http://jdse.bit.edu.cn/sktcxben/ch/index.aspx?year_id=2017&quarter_id=6

Achievements and Prospect of Payloads Technology in Chinese Lunar and Deep Space Exploration
http://jdse.bit.edu.cn/sktcxben/ch/reader/view_abstract.aspx?file_no=20170601&flag=1

Integral Technical Scheme of Payloads System for Chinese Mars-1 Exploration
http://jdse.bit.edu.cn/sktcxben/ch/reader/view_abstract.aspx?file_no=20170602&flag=1

Design and Implementation of Payload System in Chang'e-4 Mission
http://jdse.bit.edu.cn/sktcxben/ch/reader/view_abstract.aspx?file_no=20170603&flag=1

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 02/10/2018 06:33 AM
Here are the papers. The site was a bit slow for me (at least initially).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 02/10/2018 12:58 PM
Chinese university to develop microsat for polar climate research (http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-02/09/c_136962487.htm).

Apparently, launch is schedule for December 15, 2018.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/12/2018 03:44 AM
Here are the papers. The site was a bit slow for me (at least initially).

Copy and paste from the pdf into Google translate works quite well
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/12/2018 05:10 AM
Tables 1 and 2 from the Mars lander paper translated, slightly edited, showing orbiter and rover instruments. last line appears in original to refer a control system, not a instrument, so not included.

Strong emphasis on martian and space physics including, for the first time on Mars, a magnetometer.

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/12/2018 06:23 AM
Tables 1, 2, and 3 from the Chang'e 4 paper. Table 1 - lander.  Table 2 - rover.  Table 3 - relay satellite. Interestingly, no mention of the mini-biosphere, presumably on the lander. Geology, mapping, radio science, and radiation environment instruments.

Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 02/19/2018 12:20 PM
China Focus: Long March rockets on ambitious mission in 2018 (http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-02/14/c_136974997.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 02/20/2018 02:52 AM
The article doesn't make sense.

"Throughout 2018, Long March-3A rockets will send 18 BeiDou-3 satellites into space,..."

BD-3 satellites are launched either by CZ-3B or CZ-3C with optional YZ-1 upper stage.

"Long March-3C rockets will send the Pakistan Remote Sensing Satellites and the China-France Oceanography Satellite into space this year."

PRSS is a low Earth orbit (LEO) satellite since it is carrying a synthetic aperture radar (SAR). That means it should be flying on a CZ-2 or CZ-4 and not on a CZ-3 which is designed for geosynchronous transfer orbit (GTO) missions.

http://suparco.gov.pk/pages/rsss.asp?rssslinksid=1


Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 02/24/2018 10:22 AM
The article doesn't make sense.

"Throughout 2018, Long March-3A rockets will send 18 BeiDou-3 satellites into space,..."

BD-3 satellites are launched either by CZ-3B or CZ-3C with optional YZ-1 upper stage.

"Long March-3C rockets will send the Pakistan Remote Sensing Satellites and the China-France Oceanography Satellite into space this year."

PRSS is a low Earth orbit (LEO) satellite since it is carrying a synthetic aperture radar (SAR). That means it should be flying on a CZ-2 or CZ-4 and not on a CZ-3 which is designed for geosynchronous transfer orbit (GTO) missions.

http://suparco.gov.pk/pages/rsss.asp?rssslinksid=1

This should be a typo as it was officially confirmed that the CZ-2C will be used.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: zandr on 02/27/2018 02:45 PM
While there is no English version
http://russian.news.cn/2018-02/27/c_137003952.htm
translation
Quote
In China in 2018 will be the first missile launch from a sea platform
Beijing, February 27 /Xinhua/ - In this year in China with the help of the carrier rocket "Changzheng-11" will be carried out five launches including four run with the land and the country's first missile launch from the sea. This became known on Tuesday in the Chinese Association of space technologies/CAST/.
According to the head of the project of the launch vehicle "Changzheng-11" yanitsa on, land launches will serve private companies to meet the demand for the launch of small satellites. And the first launch from the marine platform is intended to further improve the adaptability of launch vehicles to the intended tasks.
Changzheng-11 rocket, which has a powerful ability to respond quickly and a relatively low price, can provide more advanced services in the field of commercial space flights, Yang Yijiang said.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 02/28/2018 01:45 AM
While there is no English version
http://russian.news.cn/2018-02/27/c_137003952.htm
translation
Quote
In China in 2018 will be the first missile launch from a sea platform
Beijing, February 27 /Xinhua/ - In this year in China with the help of the carrier rocket "Changzheng-11" will be carried out five launches including four run with the land and the country's first missile launch from the sea. This became known on Tuesday in the Chinese Association of space technologies/CAST/.
According to the head of the project of the launch vehicle "Changzheng-11" yanitsa on, land launches will serve private companies to meet the demand for the launch of small satellites. And the first launch from the marine platform is intended to further improve the adaptability of launch vehicles to the intended tasks.
Changzheng-11 rocket, which has a powerful ability to respond quickly and a relatively low price, can provide more advanced services in the field of commercial space flights, Yang Yijiang said.

Discussion thread is here: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43297.0 (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43297.0)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 03/07/2018 02:15 PM
Lift-off in space plane race as China tests hypersonic drone model (http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2136022/lift-space-plane-race-china-tests-hypersonic-drone-model).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Elmar Moelzer on 03/08/2018 11:10 PM
Lift-off in space plane race as China tests hypersonic drone model (http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2136022/lift-space-plane-race-china-tests-hypersonic-drone-model).
I saw this just earlier today. The article does not have a lot of details. I am wondering what engine technology they are using. Is it possible that they "figured out" what REL is going to do with SABRE and are beating them to it with better funding?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 03/09/2018 03:24 PM
China unveils plans for x-ray satellite to probe most violent corners of the universe

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/03/china-unveils-plans-x-ray-satellite-probe-most-violent-corners-universe
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Kansan52 on 03/09/2018 03:41 PM
Lift-off in space plane race as China tests hypersonic drone model (http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2136022/lift-space-plane-race-china-tests-hypersonic-drone-model).
I saw this just earlier today. The article does not have a lot of details. I am wondering what engine technology they are using. Is it possible that they "figured out" what REL is going to do with SABRE and are beating them to it with better funding?

You're correct. Not enough details. I would default to an air breathing engine that shuts down when the rocket takes over.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 03/14/2018 06:16 PM
an interesting article about Qian Xuesen and his heritage beyond space engineering:

A revered rocket scientist set in motion China’s mass surveillance of its citizens
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/03/revered-rocket-scientist-set-motion-china-s-mass-surveillance-its-citizens
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: zandr on 04/25/2018 08:21 PM
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-04/25/c_137136188.htm
Quote
China outlines roadmap for deep space exploration
HARBIN, April 25 (Xinhua) -- China is planning four deep space exploration missions before 2030, including probes to Mars, asteroids and Jupiter, says Pei Zhaoyu, deputy director of the Lunar Exploration and Space Program Center of the China National Space Administration.
China would launch its first Mars probe in 2020, and it was expected to orbit around, land and put a rover on the Red Planet, Pei told a space conference on Tuesday, China's Space Day.
It also plans to probe asteroids around 2022, followed by a probe in 2028 to bring Mars samples back to Earth.
An exploration mission to the Jupiter system was planned around 2029.
Lunar and deep space exploration were important for China's endeavor to become a major space power, Pei said.
As for a manned lunar landing, Pei said he personally thought a launch vehicle was still the largest technical challenge, and the huge costs should also be taken into consideration.
Based on China's circumstances, he proposed an unmanned lunar research station in about 10 years to accumulate technical expertise, and a lunar research and development base around 2050. The base would be operated by robots over the long term, and visited by humans, Pei envisioned.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: zandr on 04/26/2018 05:30 AM
http://russian.news.cn/2018-04/25/c_137136502.htm
translation
Quote
China plans to launch a number of new research satellites in about 2020
Harbin, April 25 / Xinhua / -- China will launch a number of new research satellites around 2020 as part of the national space science program, said Wang Chi, head of the national space science center under the Chinese Academy of Sciences.

According to him, these satellites include a Sino-European joint project called SMILE /Solar Wind Magnetosphere Ionosphere Link Explorer/, which is designed to study the interaction between solar wind and the earth's magnetosphere.
SMILE also provides scientists with the opportunity to deepen research on magnetospheric sub-storms to understand the impact of solar activity on the Earth's environment and space weather, he said.

The Einstein probe is another of these satellites. It is designed to detect both celestial bodies that emit x-rays during sudden changes and black holes where high-energy radiation is generated.

The list of new research satellites also includes ASO-S /Advanced Space-borne Solar Observatory/ and GECAM /Gravitational Wave Electromagnetic Counterpart all-sky Monitor/projects. In particular, the ASO-S project /advanced space-based solar Observatory/ will help researchers better understand the relationship between magnetic fields, flares and coronal mass ejections, and the GECAM project /panoramic telescope to observe electromagnetic analogs of gravitational waves/ is aimed at finding electromagnetic signals associated with gravitational waves.

WCOM /Water Cycle Observation Mission / will be the world's first spacecraft, which will help scientists better understand the process of water circulation on the Earth by synchronous and rapid measurement of soil moisture, ocean salinity, evaporation from the ocean surface and other indicators.

The project of the satellite group called MIT/ Magnetosphere-Ionosphere-Thermosphere Coupling Exploration will be implemented to study the origin of the ascending stream of ions and the mechanism of their acceleration, as well as to identify the key mechanism of interaction of the magnetosphere, ionosphere and thermosphere.

"China also plans to establish a national space research laboratory as soon as possible, as well as to achieve a significant breakthrough in the space field by 2030," Wang Chi added.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 05/25/2018 07:20 PM
China upgrades spacecraft reentry and descent technology (http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-05/25/c_137206111.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: zhangmdev on 05/25/2018 07:48 PM
http://english.cas.ac.cn/newsroom/china_research/201805/t20180525_192820.shtml

"IRDT is a new integrated inflatable heat insulating deceleration system that can land spacecraft without heat shields and parachutes, the Beijing-based newspaper said."

What a minute. Is that possible? I thought LDSD works after heatshield jettison and before parachute deployment. Is that something new?

Like usual the Chinese official source is devoid of details and padded with commentators. Also I am confused. Is this new flash from Chinese Academy Of Sciences, or from that dreadful Global Times?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: RonM on 05/25/2018 07:51 PM
http://english.cas.ac.cn/newsroom/china_research/201805/t20180525_192820.shtml

"IRDT is a new integrated inflatable heat insulating deceleration system that can land spacecraft without heat shields and parachutes, the Beijing-based newspaper said."

What a minute. Is that possible? I thought LDSD works after heatshield jettison and before parachute deployment. Is that something new?

Like usual the Chinese official source is devoid of details and padded with commentators. Also I am confused. Is this new flash from Chinese Academy Of Sciences, or from that dreadful Global Times?

No, the idea is that the inflatable heatshield is used instead of a rigid heatshield.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: zhangmdev on 05/25/2018 08:35 PM

No, the idea is that the inflatable heatshield is used instead of a rigid heatshield.

My impression is

"The IAD’s  primary  function is  to  provide  a  large increase  in  drag area in a  post  peakheating,  post peak-deceleration environment, prior to parachute deployment"

https://trs.jpl.nasa.gov/bitstream/handle/2014/44186/13-1114_A1b.pdf?sequence=1

"System studies show that SIADs provide the most trajectory benefits at  Mars when  deployed  at  Mach  4
-6  between  10 and 20 km"

http://www.ssdl.gatech.edu/sites/default/files/papers/conferencePapers/IEEE-2011-1312.pdf

" These drag devices, which are attached to the outer rim of a capsule-like atmospheric entry vehicle, will inflate when the test vehicle is flying at Mach 3.5 or greater and decelerate the vehicle to Mach 2, where it becomes safe to deploy a supersonic parachute."

https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/737628main_Final_LDSD_Fact_Sheet_3-26-13.pdf

That is already very slow and very low during Mars entry. The temperature limit of the fabric is about 500K? Is that possible to be used as a full blown heat shield?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: RonM on 05/25/2018 11:46 PM

No, the idea is that the inflatable heatshield is used instead of a rigid heatshield.

My impression is

"The IAD’s  primary  function is  to  provide  a  large increase  in  drag area in a  post  peakheating,  post peak-deceleration environment, prior to parachute deployment"

https://trs.jpl.nasa.gov/bitstream/handle/2014/44186/13-1114_A1b.pdf?sequence=1

"System studies show that SIADs provide the most trajectory benefits at  Mars when  deployed  at  Mach  4
-6  between  10 and 20 km"

http://www.ssdl.gatech.edu/sites/default/files/papers/conferencePapers/IEEE-2011-1312.pdf

" These drag devices, which are attached to the outer rim of a capsule-like atmospheric entry vehicle, will inflate when the test vehicle is flying at Mach 3.5 or greater and decelerate the vehicle to Mach 2, where it becomes safe to deploy a supersonic parachute."

https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/737628main_Final_LDSD_Fact_Sheet_3-26-13.pdf

That is already very slow and very low during Mars entry. The temperature limit of the fabric is about 500K? Is that possible to be used as a full blown heat shield?

Looks like LDSD had some relatively low limits, but that doesn't mean the Chinese design will be the same. They could be using a more heat resistant material. With a larger surface area than a rigid heatshield, the inflatable will create more drag. Shouldn't that reduce the peak temperature?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Dalhousie on 05/26/2018 12:09 AM
Inflatable heatshields have be round for a while.  good to see China working on them
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phillip Clark on 05/26/2018 12:43 AM
Inflatable heatshields have be round for a while.  good to see China working on them

They were flown on early tests of the Soyuz/Fregat combination.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Asteroza on 05/27/2018 11:54 PM
Inflatable heatshields have be round for a while.  good to see China working on them

They were flown on early tests of the Soyuz/Fregat combination.

If I remember correctly that was a joint project with ESA? The demonstrator(s) appeared to have landed safely, but local metal scavengers got to it before the recovery team, based on the drag marks...
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: zandr on 06/06/2018 09:04 PM
China plans more meteorological satellites by 2025 (http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-06/05/c_137232618.htm)
Quote
XICHANG, June 5 (Xinhua) -- China plans to send 11 more meteorological satellites into orbit by 2025 to further improve its weather forecasting accuracy and ability to cope with natural hazards, according to the China National Space Administration (CNSA).
The planned satellites include three Fengyun-3 satellites in polar orbit, two Fengyun-4 satellites in geostationary orbit, one dawn-dusk orbit climate satellite, one high-precision greenhouse gas detection satellite and one hyper-spectral satellite.
China also aims to send a microwave detection satellite into the geostationary orbit to enhance its ability to predict and monitor fast-changing typhoons, rainstorms and other extreme weather. The satellite will work with the Fengyun-4 series to improve forecasting of rainfall and climate.
A precipitation radar measurement satellite is also planned to improve the accuracy of numerical forecasting of precipitation.
China already has 17 Fengyun series meteorological satellites in space...
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Chris Bergin on 06/07/2018 06:40 PM
Presser:

Shenzhen,China June 1st, 2018 - Broadgnss--a leading innovator of GNSS receiver systems announced at the 9th China Satellite Navigation Conference a new high precision satellite position receiver with patented RAC (Real-time Array Calibration)technology. It features positioning accuracy closer than one meter (up to 10cm) by receiving only single frequency (GPS L1) satellite signals, the RAC technology in high precision satellite positioning which frees the dependence on traditional augmentation network and significantly reduces the cost, making way for high precision satellite positioning in large-scale applications.
 
Most consumer GPS accuracy devices are around 5-10m. To achieve the sub-meter level accuracy, you have to use the professional GNSS receivers that connect to ground based or satellite based augmentation systems like RTK (Real Time Kinematic) or PPP(Point Precision Position). The main problems for current high precision GPS are high costs and geographical limits. High precision GPS receivers can cost thousands, and the reference station for RTK network and communication network still have many blind spots on the Earth. In addition, satellite based PPP receivers also have the long initial start time issue. RAC receivers completely balance the performance and cost, overcoming the barriers of traditional high accuracy GNSS receivers. The cost is as low as only 1/10 of the traditional ones.


“RAC technology is one disruptive high precision GPS solution, as people pursue the more accurate GPS location, we think the cost shouldn’t be the barriers of scaling up, meanwhile RAC technology opens one door for high accuracy GPS research, which could be used in more space. Broadgnss is aimed to democratize the high accuracy GNSS service and will keep moving to this goal” said by Broadgnss CEO Yan Shen.

Broadgnss RAC receiver is is currently used by autonomous vehicles, drones, precision agriculture, robotics, and more.

About Broadgnss

Founded in 2014, Broadgnss Technologies Co., Ltd is the global leading innovator in high precision GNSS industry, with its exclusively patented RAC(Real-time Array Calibration) technology, Broadgnss realizes up to 10cm accuracy by only leveraging the single frequency of satellite signal, without relying on any augmentation network, which significantly reduces the high accuracy GNSS costs. Broadgnss strives to democratize the high-precision GNSS service, enabling users to enter the high accuracy position world. For more information, please visit: http://www.broadgnss.com/eindex.asp
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Lsquirrel on 07/01/2018 07:37 AM
China Latest Deep Space Exploration Roadmap(published on june 22)


Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 07/01/2018 07:59 AM
anybody knows what HX-1 stands for? it's the first Chinese Mars mission
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Nordren on 07/01/2018 08:06 AM
HuoXing-1 (Mars-1)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 07/02/2018 09:13 AM
2030 ILRS = International Lunar Research Station?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Bynaus on 07/02/2018 11:37 AM
I have also never heard of Chang'E-"P1" and "-P2". P for Piloted?
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 07/02/2018 11:50 AM
I have also never heard of Chang'E-"P1" and "-P2". P for Piloted?

they hinted at polar landers to follow CE-6, so I guess it stands for Polar
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Satori on 07/07/2018 11:00 PM
China launches new space science program (http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-07/04/c_137301499.htm).
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 07/08/2018 01:58 AM
The missions that were approved are the following, which were already known.

EP (Einstein-Probe)
ASO-S (Advanced Space-borne Solar Observatory)
SMILE (Solar wind Magnetosphere Ionosphere Link Explorer)
GECAM (Gravitational Wave Electromagnetic Counterpart All-sky Monitor)
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Lsquirrel on 07/08/2018 03:13 AM
2030 ILRS = International Lunar Research Station?

bingo!
http://www.unoosa.org/documents/pdf/copuos/2018/copuos2018tech19E.pdf
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Lsquirrel on 07/08/2018 03:26 AM
I have also never heard of Chang'E-"P1" and "-P2". P for Piloted?

it stands for Polar
P1 may be a south pole exploration mission,and P2 for north pole

I have post an earlier version of the  lunar Exploration Roadmap:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=7058.msg1518906#msg1518906

the roadmap used to be
2025,south pole landing&cruise
2027,north pole landing &isru

in 2016

the two missions launch time have changed to 2023 and 2026 in 2017:
https://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2017/pdf/1730.pdf
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: eeergo on 07/11/2018 03:46 PM
Upbeat (and with rapid-firing eye-candy!) video about the first 6 months of China spaceflight:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnpkpt4sJQ0
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Phil Stooke on 07/11/2018 06:37 PM
A bit more on the polar research station.  This was from a presentation at the Microsymposium held just before LPSC in March 2018.

CR1 and CR2 stand for Connecting Ridge 1 and 2, high illumination sites on the ridge between Shackleton and de Gerlache craters.
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: plutogno on 07/12/2018 07:53 PM
New China space missions will watch for colliding black holes, solar blasts
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/07/new-china-space-missions-will-watch-colliding-black-holes-solar-blasts
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: bolun on 07/18/2018 07:38 PM
CAS Officially Launched the Strategic Priority Program on Space Science Phase II

2018-07-05

On July 4, 2018, the Chinese Academy of Sciences (CAS) officially launched the strategic pioneer program on space science (phase II) at Beijing Huairou Science City. Upon great scientific achievements achieved by Dark Matter Particle Explorer (DAMPE), Quantum Experiments at Space Scale (QUESS), Hard X-Ray Modulation Telescope (HXMT), ShiJian-10 Recoverable Satellite, etc. from Phase I, the program will launch 4 more space science satellites in the next 5 years.

The new patch of space science satellites, includes Einstein Probe (EP), Advanced Space-based Solar Observatory (ASO-S), ESA-CAS Solar Wind Magnetosphere Ionosphere Link Explorer (SMILE), all of which has officially entered its engineering phase. Gravitational Wave High-energy Electromagnetic Counterpart All-sky Monitor (GECAM) is carrying out Phase A study, and will enter engineering phase soon.

The four missions mainly focuses on time-domain high-energy astrophysics, the relationship between solar magnetic field and solar eruptions, interactions between the solar wind and magnetosphere, the detection of gravitational wave electromagnetic counterpart from gamma-ray bursts.

The priority program has also deployed a number of projects including conceptual study, intensive study, pre-research, space science mission planning and data analysis, etc.

The Enhanced X-ray Timing and Polarimetry Mission (eXTP) is among the six major projects under intensive research. It is a major international cooperation program led by China and participated by more than 20 countries. With the scientific targets of “one singularity (black holes), two stars (neutron stars and magnetars) and three extremes (gravity, magnetism and density)”, it is designed to observe black holes, neutron stars, and magnetars to better understand the physics in extreme conditions of gravity, magnetism and density.

Other projects under intensive study will carry out a series of key technological endeavors in fields such as space gravitational wave detection, origin and evolution law of the universe, birth of the solar system, detection of earth-like planets outside the solar system, etc.

Background information:

Einstein Probe (EP) will perform all-sky monitoring and explore the cosmic high-energy transients. It may shed light on the answers to the questions such as the origin and evolution of black hole population, generation mechanism of gravitational waves, and their effects and life cycle of the first generation of stars, re-ionization, etc.

Advanced Space-borne Solar Observatory (ASO-S) will reveal the multiple relationships between solar magnetic field, solar flares, and Coronal Mass Ejections (CMEs).

Solar Wind Magnetosphere Ionosphere Link Explorer (SMILE) was jointly proposed and developed by Chinese Academy of Sciences and European Space Agency. It is expected to determine when and where transient and steady magnetopause reconnection dominates, define the substorm cycle, including timing and flux transfer amplitudes, as well as the development of CME-driven storms. With the new soft X-ray Imager and ultra-violet imager as its payloads, SMILE will carry out global imaging of the interaction between solar wind and magnetosphere for the first time.

Gravitational Wave High-energy Electromagnetic Counterpart All-sky Monitor (GECAM) is an “mission of opportunity” project proposed for the detection of gravitational wave high energy electromagnetic counterpart in space. With the joint observation by satellites and ground gravitational wave detector, it enables facilitates the discovery of gravitational wave electromagnetic counterpart gamma-ray burst and new radiation phenomena.

http://english.nssc.cas.cn/ns/headline/201807/t20180705_194747.html
Title: Re: China's space program
Post by: Tywin on 09/21/2018 05:18 AM
A very good paper, about the new science missions proposed by China  :D, and in english  ;)

https://sites.nationalacademies.org/cs/groups/ssbsite/documents/webpage/ssb_185302.pdf

And other with more info  8)

http://www.essc.esf.org/fileadmin/user_upload/essc/Chinese-Space-Program-2018.pdf