So, would they stretch the stage for more fuel for orbiting and landing, or widen the stage? It would be nice if they could make a metholox upper stage with an upper stage Raptor for FH and F9 to not only get reusability, but be able to land it.
I'm pretty sure they will not make the CF in house. CF is hugely difficult to do properly, especially big parts, high quality. You need experience, lots of it! If they want to control the process, the only way to do it is to buy the CF parts manufacturer.Otherwise they could spend years perfecting that skill and still come short. This is not the same as machining aluminium or 3D printing superdracos. CF and other composite manufacturing is still some kind of an art.
Quote from: john smith 19 on 06/05/2017 06:57 pmThat said they might shift to a CF upper stage if they mfg the big ITS LOX tank in house. Otherwise that would put an outside sub contractor in the critical path for all future upper stages. Something I'm pretty sure SX is very unwilling to do.I'm pretty sure they will not make the CF in house. CF is hugely difficult to do properly, especially big parts, high quality. You need experience, lots of it! If they want to control the process, the only way to do it is to buy the CF parts manufacturer.Otherwise they could spend years perfecting that skill and still come short. This is not the same as machining aluminium or 3D printing superdracos. CF and other composite manufacturing is still some kind of an art.
That said they might shift to a CF upper stage if they mfg the big ITS LOX tank in house. Otherwise that would put an outside sub contractor in the critical path for all future upper stages. Something I'm pretty sure SX is very unwilling to do.
Quote from: IRobot on 06/05/2017 09:21 pmQuote from: john smith 19 on 06/05/2017 06:57 pmThat said they might shift to a CF upper stage if they mfg the big ITS LOX tank in house. Otherwise that would put an outside sub contractor in the critical path for all future upper stages. Something I'm pretty sure SX is very unwilling to do.I'm pretty sure they will not make the CF in house. CF is hugely difficult to do properly, especially big parts, high quality. You need experience, lots of it! If they want to control the process, the only way to do it is to buy the CF parts manufacturer.Otherwise they could spend years perfecting that skill and still come short. This is not the same as machining aluminium or 3D printing superdracos. CF and other composite manufacturing is still some kind of an art.Are you kidding?? Fairing, interstage, legs... SpaceX already does a LOT of in house CF. Fairing is much bigger than the upper stage (not that I think SpaceX will make a CF F9 2nd stage... They won't.).
Quote from: Robotbeat on 06/05/2017 11:59 pmQuote from: IRobot on 06/05/2017 09:21 pmQuote from: john smith 19 on 06/05/2017 06:57 pmThat said they might shift to a CF upper stage if they mfg the big ITS LOX tank in house. Otherwise that would put an outside sub contractor in the critical path for all future upper stages. Something I'm pretty sure SX is very unwilling to do.I'm pretty sure they will not make the CF in house. CF is hugely difficult to do properly, especially big parts, high quality. You need experience, lots of it! If they want to control the process, the only way to do it is to buy the CF parts manufacturer.Otherwise they could spend years perfecting that skill and still come short. This is not the same as machining aluminium or 3D printing superdracos. CF and other composite manufacturing is still some kind of an art.Are you kidding?? Fairing, interstage, legs... SpaceX already does a LOT of in house CF. Fairing is much bigger than the upper stage (not that I think SpaceX will make a CF F9 2nd stage... They won't.).Also the landing legs?We seem to have a disagreement.I know ULA have a team from the PLF mfg (IIRC they are Swiss) based in the Decatur factory to make theirs but does anyone know if SX mfg in house or not?Obviously if they do that would be a jumping off point for something as ambitious as the large ITS LOX tank but if they don't that seems like a pretty big leap. If SX has the capability to do big CF structures in house then F9 US could be done in CF (but I don't think they will. It's another separate mfg and supply chain to maintain). If they sub contract out then that puts their sub contractor in their critical path for every new US. I'm sure there are mfgs who are in SX's critical path but I suspect SX have backups for all of them. If they can't deliver (or deliver on time) SX will use the alternate. The number of mfgs that can do structures that big and that critical (large, highly stressed, cryogenic, high temperature), or are even prepared to attempt to do it, is very limited, possibly only one. If they don't already have it I expect SX will acquire in house large CF structure capability by the time ITS goes into full scale construction. Just found this.https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/5ul1duremains_of_the_its_composite_tank_in_anacortes_wa/and thishttps://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/5chddp/pictures_of_the_its_lox_testing_tank_being_taken/So does SX have an out office in Washington state or could it be Boeing, as the comments suggest?
Quote from: Robotbeat on 06/05/2017 11:59 pmQuote from: IRobot on 06/05/2017 09:21 pmQuote from: john smith 19 on 06/05/2017 06:57 pmThat said they might shift to a CF upper stage if they mfg the big ITS LOX tank in house. Otherwise that would put an outside sub contractor in the critical path for all future upper stages. Something I'm pretty sure SX is very unwilling to do.I'm pretty sure they will not make the CF in house. CF is hugely difficult to do properly, especially big parts, high quality. You need experience, lots of it! If they want to control the process, the only way to do it is to buy the CF parts manufacturer.Otherwise they could spend years perfecting that skill and still come short. This is not the same as machining aluminium or 3D printing superdracos. CF and other composite manufacturing is still some kind of an art.Are you kidding?? Fairing, interstage, legs... SpaceX already does a LOT of in house CF. Fairing is much bigger than the upper stage (not that I think SpaceX will make a CF F9 2nd stage... They won't.).Yeah, but no tanks... Even for ITS they ordered from an external provider. Doing a fairing or interstage is not that hard, compared with fuel/oxidizer tank. You can do a fairing with a mold with the same skill level required to make a performance sailboat. Interstage and legs can be done in the same way. A fuel tank is not the same. It is not about size, but shape, pressure, valves installation and thermal considerations.
Yeah, but no tanks... Even for ITS they ordered from an external provider. Doing a fairing or interstage is not that hard, compared with fuel/oxidizer tank. You can do a fairing with a mold with the same skill level required to make a performance sailboat. Interstage and legs can be done in the same way. A fuel tank is not the same. It is not about size, but shape, pressure, valves installation and thermal considerations.
I was wondering as follows:1) can the fairing be re-engineered to act as re-entry shield? 2)if the above is the case, the payload loss would equal the weight of the fairing, not to be jettisoned (but, rather, kept attached somehow).
Quote from: Robotbeat on 06/05/2017 11:59 pmQuote from: IRobot on 06/05/2017 09:21 pmQuote from: john smith 19 on 06/05/2017 06:57 pmThat said they might shift to a CF upper stage if they mfg the big ITS LOX tank in house. Otherwise that would put an outside sub contractor in the critical path for all future upper stages. Something I'm pretty sure SX is very unwilling to do.I'm pretty sure they will not make the CF in house. CF is hugely difficult to do properly, especially big parts, high quality. You need experience, lots of it! If they want to control the process, the only way to do it is to buy the CF parts manufacturer.Otherwise they could spend years perfecting that skill and still come short. This is not the same as machining aluminium or 3D printing superdracos. CF and other composite manufacturing is still some kind of an art.Are you kidding?? Fairing, interstage, legs... SpaceX already does a LOT of in house CF. Fairing is much bigger than the upper stage (not that I think SpaceX will make a CF F9 2nd stage... They won't.).Elon is about vertical integration when industry abuse price, they partnered with Toray for CF tanks which make a lot of sense in the same way they do with Panasonic on Tesla batteries and did with Lotus before. They might not do that big number of tanks, so if expert manufacturer of automatic composite production comes in at good price they might catch the opportunity. Avoiding to open a factory is a big save, just need an assembly space.
Toray makes the fiber, not the tanks (and nobody else produces CF as good as Toray... And people have tried very hard.).$20 bucks says they'll bring composite stage production in-house.
But wrt to this thread do you see them going for an "F9 Upper Stage 2.0" in CF?
Quote from: Robotbeat on 06/07/2017 03:41 amToray makes the fiber, not the tanks (and nobody else produces CF as good as Toray... And people have tried very hard.).$20 bucks says they'll bring composite stage production in-house.No one would take the bet as, based on past experience that's exactly what SX will do once ITS is closer to going into mfg.But wrt to this thread do you see them going for an "F9 Upper Stage 2.0" in CF?