Author Topic: HLV Launch Vehicle - General Discussion  (Read 16223 times)

Offline K210

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HLV Launch Vehicle - General Discussion
« on: 08/14/2015 05:02 AM »
This news article indicates that ISRO has begun developing their HLV at a cost of 1800cr.

Source: http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/russian-tieup-to-boost-isros-semicryogenic-launcher-plan/article7536263.ece

Quote
The ISRO is working on its new-generation, Rs. 1,800-crore third rocket programme, called the semi-cryogenic launch vehicle, to beef up its current portfolio of the PSLV and the GSLV. It will use space-grade kerosene and liquid oxygen as fuel and is meant to pitch spacecraft totally weighing six to ten tonnes to heights of 36,000 km. This would be double the lifting power of the GSLV and triple that of the PSLV. Only the U.S. and Russia have this technology.




Offline K210

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Re: HLV Launch Vehicle - General Discussion
« Reply #1 on: 08/14/2015 07:52 AM »
Vehicle configuration: 2 x S250 + Core powered by clustered SCE-200 engines + C-60 powered by CE-60 OR C-50 powered by two CE-20



Source: http://www.vssc.gov.in/VSSC_V4/index.php/technology/heavy-lift-launch-vehicles
« Last Edit: 08/14/2015 07:52 AM by K210 »

Online TrevorMonty

Re: HLV Launch Vehicle - General Discussion
« Reply #2 on: 08/14/2015 10:27 AM »
At 10t to GTO it is little big for commercial satellites but not for HSF and lunar missions.

Offline johnxx9

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Re: HLV Launch Vehicle - General Discussion
« Reply #3 on: 08/14/2015 05:05 PM »
IMHO It will really sad if ISRO goes forward with this design. I would rather have prefered the HLV to be part of ULV (which will be replacement for PSLV standard and -XL and GSLV, LVM3 in long term) making use of the common core booster. This would have resulted in an HLV similar in architecture to Angara - A5.

Alas, ISRO is hell bent on using solids on each and every launch vehicle. Using an Anagar A5 like architecture would enabled mass production of the CLC stages thereby reducing costs and complexity.




Offline baldusi

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Re: HLV Launch Vehicle - General Discussion
« Reply #4 on: 08/14/2015 05:45 PM »
IMHO It will really sad if ISRO goes forward with this design. I would rather have prefered the HLV to be part of ULV (which will be replacement for PSLV standard and -XL and GSLV, LVM3 in long term) making use of the common core booster. This would have resulted in an HLV similar in architecture to Angara - A5.

Alas, ISRO is hell bent on using solids on each and every launch vehicle. Using an Anagar A5 like architecture would enabled mass production of the CLC stages thereby reducing costs and complexity.
The sad part is the multiplication of solid tooling lines. S12->1m, S139->2.8m, S200->3.2m, and who knows what's going to be the S250. A single solid with something like 25 to 30 tonnes of propellant would have reduced the total number of stage pipelines to just three. I believe that they will eventually go that way, though.

Offline Ohsin

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Re: HLV Launch Vehicle - General Discussion
« Reply #5 on: 08/14/2015 06:04 PM »
IMHO It will really sad if ISRO goes forward with this design. I would rather have prefered the HLV to be part of ULV (which will be replacement for PSLV standard and -XL and GSLV, LVM3 in long term) making use of the common core booster. This would have resulted in an HLV similar in architecture to Angara - A5.

Alas, ISRO is hell bent on using solids on each and every launch vehicle. Using an Anagar A5 like architecture would enabled mass production of the CLC stages thereby reducing costs and complexity.
The sad part is the multiplication of solid tooling lines. S12->1m, S139->2.8m, S200->3.2m, and who knows what's going to be the S250. A single solid with something like 25 to 30 tonnes of propellant would have reduced the total number of stage pipelines to just three. I believe that they will eventually go that way, though.

Couldn't they just stretch S200 to S250 like they did for S9 to S12 ? S139 is different being core. Also any SWAGs at breaking down all the colored sections in that HLV image? :)
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Offline baldusi

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Re: HLV Launch Vehicle - General Discussion
« Reply #6 on: 08/14/2015 07:02 PM »
Solid are obviously HTPB.
SC160: Violet (or is it pink?) should be the Kerosene. Blue should be LOX.
SC60: It just doesn't makes any sense, the C60 stage should have roughly 110% the volume of the SC160. So, playing with the measures, the SC160 core should be 4.1m (like the GSLV MkIII). Then all the upper thing is 5.2m wide. If so, Then the Orange is the Hydrogen tank, the LOX tank should probably be enclosed (like the Delta IV Upper stages) in the interstage. And then the Green should be the fairing. It's the only way that I find something consistent.

Offline chota

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Re: HLV Launch Vehicle - General Discussion
« Reply #7 on: 09/06/2015 05:27 AM »
HLV may be part of the ULV afterall !!


Offline Ohsin

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Re: HLV Launch Vehicle - General Discussion
« Reply #8 on: 09/06/2015 08:05 AM »
HLV may be part of the ULV afterall !!

Source Unofficial
http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets_1/India/ULV/Description/Frame.htm

How does it make HLV part of ULV ? Different stages different strapons that don't go with ULV...HLV(VSSC one) is different LV altogether and not part of ULV family.
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Offline Ohsin

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Re: HLV Launch Vehicle - General Discussion
« Reply #9 on: 11/02/2015 12:19 AM »
Resized the Heavy Lift Vehicle(HLV) render found on VSSC official webpage assuming that S250 solid is of same diameter as S200 of LVM3 (i.e 3.2m). This way HLV's height comes out to be ~55.7m.

Kinda fits nicely ;D
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Offline Ohsin

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Re: HLV Launch Vehicle - General Discussion
« Reply #10 on: 11/12/2015 11:45 AM »
Quote from: From Fishing Hamlet to Red Planet
8.8

Cryogenic Propulsion Systems Development in ISRO

V. NARAYANAN

FUTURE PLANS

ISRO is designing heavy-lift launch vehicles with capabilities in the range of 6-10 tonnes in GTO. For this purpose, the following propulsion systems are being pursued:

A 200 tonne propellant loading LOX and kerosene booster stage powered by a 2,000 kN thrust semi-cryogenic engine operating on stage combustion cycle.

A 50 tonne LOX-LH2 propellant loading cryogenic stage powered by twin CE 20 cryogenic engines.

A 10 tonne LOX-LH2 propellant loading cryogenic stage powered by a CE 20 cryogenic engine.

Above excerpt is from recently released book.

A new single CE20 powered stage C10! And twin CE20 C50! Also "vehicles with capabilities in the range of 6-10 tonnes in GTO" may indicate some flexibility in configuration. C10 optional may be? Tidied up  original render a bit for all your speculative needs  ;D
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Offline antriksh

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Re: HLV Launch Vehicle - General Discussion
« Reply #11 on: 11/13/2015 01:19 PM »
I wonder the upper stage of HLV have structural similarity with that of TSTO. the clustered CE20 will also be used in the TSTO. the C10 stage is new to me. seems for manned or planetary exploration?
Nasadiya Sukta:
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From: 1st verse of 129th Hymn of the 10th Book of Rig Veda

Offline hkultala

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Re: HLV Launch Vehicle - General Discussion
« Reply #12 on: 11/13/2015 01:54 PM »
What are the small "pipes" on the boosters? Are they additional very small and fast-burning boosters burning practicall only for takeoff? or something else?
« Last Edit: 11/13/2015 01:54 PM by hkultala »

Offline Ohsin

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Re: HLV Launch Vehicle - General Discussion
« Reply #13 on: 11/13/2015 02:28 PM »
I wonder the upper stage of HLV have structural similarity with that of TSTO. the clustered CE20 will also be used in the TSTO. the C10 stage is new to me. seems for manned or planetary exploration?

Whoa that makes the black portion on fairing as TPS?! And that means it is unlikely to be a clam shell and would open and close like a hatch.. this is crazy :D With TSTO there is some confusion in satellite injection method. In one depiction it seems to be deployed out of nose through a closable hatch and in other there is chutes and stuff in nose and satellite supposedly gets deployed through a bay door like shuttle.

What are the small "pipes" on the boosters? Are they additional very small and fast-burning boosters burning practicall only for takeoff? or something else?

Those are probably FNC(Flex Nozzle Control) oil tanks just like those on LVM3 S200 boosters
« Last Edit: 11/13/2015 02:32 PM by Ohsin »
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Offline K210

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Re: HLV Launch Vehicle - General Discussion
« Reply #14 on: 12/03/2015 05:53 AM »
Its a shame they went with two CE-20 for the upper stage instead of a CE-60. A CE-60 would have lowered the complexity and provided greater growth potential. Well at least it will speed up development.

Offline Ohsin

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Re: HLV Launch Vehicle - General Discussion
« Reply #15 on: 12/03/2015 09:30 AM »
What do we know about CE-60? Where else is it mentioned apart from that famous presentation by Dr B N Suresh ?
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Offline K210

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Re: HLV Launch Vehicle - General Discussion
« Reply #16 on: 12/04/2015 12:00 AM »
I remember reading a presentation about CE-60 some time ago. It was supposed to be a cryogenic engine that produced 600kn thrust. It was based on the staged combustion cycle a lot like the CE-7.5. They intended to use the engine for RLV TSTO's upper stage and a future rocket capable of putting 31 tons in LEO. It could also have had a part in a potential moon rocket that ISRO was mooting over a couple of years ago. 

Offline K210

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Re: HLV Launch Vehicle - General Discussion
« Reply #17 on: 12/04/2015 12:05 AM »
The first picture attached is of a old concept of a moon rocket that ISRO was once planning. The second one is from aero india 2009 which shows a rocket which uses the CE-60 in the upper stage.

Offline K210

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Re: HLV Launch Vehicle - General Discussion
« Reply #18 on: 12/09/2015 08:54 AM »
Some information on the fabled CE-60 engine

Offline Ohsin

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Re: HLV Launch Vehicle - General Discussion
« Reply #19 on: 01/04/2016 12:09 PM »
Some interesting stuff on render of that fabled engine that I chanced upon while looking for 'GSLV Mk IV' recently..

This PDF from French space agency CNES about 'Future Launchers' and it mentions 'GSLV Mk IV' on page 35.

http://www.education-cva.eu//data/File/actualites/CVA_JBerenbach_CNES_Future_Launchers_19july2010.pdf

Its from 2010 and there is this 3D engine rendering on page 18 under "Studies of high thrust engines for 2025"



It is there again on pg. 53

Specifications given are:

    Name         :   VOLGA MX 4000
    Propellant   :   LOX/HC
    Thrust (kN)  :   2000-4000
    ISP vacuum(s):   > 360
    Mass (kg)    :   < 5000
    Objective    :   Higher density propellants, For 1st stage


Burns hydrocarbons and looks exactly like the flipped render on 24th slide from well known presentation 'Space Transportation System, What the future beholds' By Dr. B N Suresh that is posted above

Specifications don't match as it is 600 kN Cryo with much higher ISP of 444s.

Looked up on http://b14643.de  and on http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets/Diverse/Russian_Rocket_engines/engines.htm I found RD-0163 using same render.



    RD-0163
    Kerosene/LOX
    Thrust 4,876.6
    ISP    286.8 s
   
    Thrust Vac 5,440.7
    ISP    Vac 320
    for Rus-M project


Further digging around for CNES Volga gives this paper about engine using LOX/Methane uses same render for engine.

http://arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514/6.2002-4321

Quote
A research and technological program called VOLGA was initiated recently between European and Russian industries. Its main objective is the conception of a LOX/CH4 engine for RLV or large liquid reusable booster application.

Found out about 'Project Ural' that started in 2005 through following

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=6596.0

Also there are these tiny articles from 2010-11 about it.

http://seradata.com/SSI/2010/03/reusable_first_stage_focus_of/

http://sputniknews.com/world/20111118/168817930.html

So why is this render used in ISRO presentation from 2007? Can this engine be modified to burn Kerosene as well as Methane?

This may need a separate thread.
« Last Edit: 01/04/2016 12:53 PM by Ohsin »
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Offline johnxx9

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Re: HLV Launch Vehicle - General Discussion
« Reply #20 on: 01/04/2016 01:50 PM »
ISRO unveils 10-tonne satellite plan at Indian Science Congress

Quote
Indian Space Research Organisation (Isro) has plans to build its heaviest rocket that can carry satellites weighing 10 communication tonnes into space.

The space agency's Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle (GSLV-MkII) currently has the capability to carry satellites weighing in at just two tonnes.

 India's heaviest rocket would be powered by a semi-cryogenic engine - that runs on kerosene and liquid oxygen, which the space agency is currently developing.

 Semi-cryogenic engines are environment friendly and bring down the cost of launches significantly. The design process for the semi-cryogenic engine is completed and is being built by Godrej Aerospace, which also makes the Vikas engines for Isro's rockets.

 "Once we have this engine, we will have different levels of launch vehicles possible. Currently the GSLV MK 3 uses the CE20 engine and once we put the semi cryogenic engine in such a combination, we will have a much bigger rating, which will have a payload capability of 10 ton," said S. Somanath, project director of the GSLV Mk III at Isro. He did not set a time frame for the rocket development.

 Last year, Isro tested a demonstrator of its heavier class of rocket, the GSLV Mk III, designed to hurl 4 tonne class communication satellites into space. The CE20 engine which the rocket uses is an indigenously developed cryogenic engine. A full fledged rocket with a communication satellite will be launched in 2017.

"One of the launch vehicle...will look like the GSLV Mk 3 but it will be much taller, almost 65 metres, weighing almost 732.6 tons at liftoff and it is capable of putting a 10 ton space plant in communication orbit," said Somanath.

Isro currently sends its 4 tonne communication satellites used for satellite broadcasting on Arianespace rockets of the European Space Agency.

Somanath said that Isro would work on a modular vehicle approach, using the same platform to extend the power of its rockets than build separate rockets.

"..we thought that we will go in a modular way. It will be possible for nearly 6 ton payload capability and if required we will be able to change to our full 10 tonne launch vehicle with little bit of addition," he said.

Meanwhile, Isro will launch its fifth of the seventh regional navigation satellite on January 20. The satellite will be part of India's constellation of geo-positioning satellites that would help in disaster management, mapping and navigation, said Isro director M Annadurai.

Offline johnxx9

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Re: HLV Launch Vehicle - General Discussion
« Reply #21 on: 01/04/2016 02:00 PM »
So, the LV will be 65metres tall. The earlier figure discussed here was 55m. I would love to see the commonality between this and the ULV.

As far as I see this there are 2 prospective families (with a lot in common)

ULV - payload capacity of PSLV, GSLV and LVM3 ie upto 4 tons to GTO
HLV - 6 tons and 10 tons to GTO

They might as well be the same for all we know. But 10 tons of GTP payload and ISRO's insistance on solid boosters for this, will result in the requirement of higher propellant loading in semi cryo stage and the use of CE60 on the upper stage which will result in a different vehicle from the baseline ULV specs.


Offline vineethgk

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Re: HLV Launch Vehicle - General Discussion
« Reply #22 on: 02/12/2018 02:04 AM »
ISRO chief on prospective HLV designs after the advent of Falcon Heavy

Bottom line: They have designs based on clustered Kerolox engines (SCE-200) in the drawing board. But its a long way off. Current emphasis is on realizing SCE-200 engine and the subsequent development of single engine SC200 stage to enhance the capability of GSLV MkIII.

Offline kanaka

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Re: HLV Launch Vehicle - General Discussion
« Reply #23 on: 02/12/2018 02:58 AM »
ISRO chief on prospective HLV designs after the advent of Falcon Heavy

Bottom line: They have designs based on clustered Kerolox engines (SCE-200) in the drawing board. But its a long way off. Current emphasis is on realizing SCE-200 engine and the subsequent development of single engine SC200 stage to enhance the capability of GSLV MkIII.

One at a time. Application of advanced technologies to real problem of man  and society,  the priority already defined.

Offline K210

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Re: HLV Launch Vehicle - General Discussion
« Reply #24 on: 02/13/2018 06:42 AM »
If isro plans to undertake manned spaceflight in the long term then they should definitely be looking at a super heavy launcher. China, Russia and the US are all working on their own super heavy launchers which will be ready in 2025-2030 timeframe. ISRO will need a super heavy launcher if they want to play any meaningful role in lunar/mars exploration. 

Offline sanman

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Re: HLV Launch Vehicle - General Discussion
« Reply #25 on: 02/13/2018 08:53 AM »
They should go for reusability first, so that even a heavy launcher wouldn't have to be thrown away.

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