Wow. If Anatoly Zack is correct this wins the 'Dumbest Launch failure of the Year' award. Truly mind boggling.
As dumb as Ariane 4 flight 36 and that cloth hanging at the wrong place... Also the Ariane 5 flight 1 fiasco (can't remember the exact story, it had some of Ariane 4 guidance system to save cost, and the system got lost by the different rocket flight profile)
This failure cause is just as dumb as NASA getting metric and imperial measurements confused for Mars missions.
Quote from: Star One on 11/30/2017 06:51 amQuote from: calapine on 11/30/2017 05:11 amWow. If Anatoly Zack is correct this wins the 'Dumbest Launch failure of the Year' award. Truly mind boggling.Id imagine whoever was responsible for that will be sweating buckets now, and probably reviewing their career options rapidly. [Yakov] In Russia, "career options" review you. [/Yakov]Seriously though, if the speculated cause is correct, it looks like a very Russian operational mistake- bureaucratic procedure trumping facts slapping you in the face.Recall that the Cuban Missile Crisis was triggered because the Soviets were building their launch site out in the open according to fabrication procedures they would have followed within their own country- ignoring that they were building right on the U.S.'s doorstep.
Quote from: calapine on 11/30/2017 05:11 amWow. If Anatoly Zack is correct this wins the 'Dumbest Launch failure of the Year' award. Truly mind boggling.Id imagine whoever was responsible for that will be sweating buckets now, and probably reviewing their career options rapidly.
QuoteROSKOSMOS. ANALYSIS OF THE CAUSES OF FAILED LAUNCH11/29/2012 9:26 PM....The work of the commission is planned until December 15, 2017, the next meeting will be held on December 1, 2017.https://www.roscosmos.ru/24389/
ROSKOSMOS. ANALYSIS OF THE CAUSES OF FAILED LAUNCH11/29/2012 9:26 PM....The work of the commission is planned until December 15, 2017, the next meeting will be held on December 1, 2017.
A source described the possible reason for the unsuccessful launch from VostochnyFregat and 19 satellites could have fallen into the ocean due to an error in the calculation of azimuth, a source in the space industry told RIA Novosti.The problem, perhaps, is that the azimuth was counted differently in Soyuz and Fregat, [resp.] clockwise and counterclockwise. Fregat needed to turn by 2 degrees, and instead it started to turn 358 degrees, lost its orientation and fell into the ocean, "- said the interlocutor to this agency.
Another potential explanation given to RIA NovostiQuoteA source described the possible reason for the unsuccessful launch from VostochnyFregat and 19 satellites could have fallen into the ocean due to an error in the calculation of azimuth, a source in the space industry told RIA Novosti.The problem, perhaps, is that the azimuth was counted differently in Soyuz and Fregat, [resp.] clockwise and counterclockwise. Fregat needed to turn by 2 degrees, and instead it started to turn 358 degrees, lost its orientation and fell into the ocean, "- said the interlocutor to this agency.https://ria.ru/science/20171130/1509955550.html
And of course this is the first time a Fregat was launched on a Soyuz ?
Quote from: mn on 11/30/2017 04:31 pmAnd of course this is the first time a Fregat was launched on a Soyuz ?Exactly. Even if they know (seems they do) Fregat tried the almost-360-degrees maneuver (in pitch or yaw, rumors differ) and couldn't finish it before engine start time, they need to understand why Fregat tried this fo the first time in this particular launch.
Quote from: Liss on 11/30/2017 05:08 pmQuote from: mn on 11/30/2017 04:31 pmAnd of course this is the first time a Fregat was launched on a Soyuz ?Exactly. Even if they know (seems they do) Fregat tried the almost-360-degrees maneuver (in pitch or yaw, rumors differ) and couldn't finish it before engine start time, they need to understand why Fregat tried this fo the first time in this particular launch.No not at all, I don't think they 'know' this.This sounds like someone in the industry who happens to know that they use different azimuth calculations just said 'well this is possible', and while yes it is technically possibly, I doesn't seem from that published report that someone seriously thinks this is indeed what happened.We see this all the time in any type of failure/accident. Someone who knows how the machine works says 'well this is possible' and the media runs with it as if this expert believes this is what happened. And at least this report is worded quite clearly to say this 'could have happened', so this report is even better than typical.
Quote from: mn on 11/30/2017 05:25 pmQuote from: Liss on 11/30/2017 05:08 pmQuote from: mn on 11/30/2017 04:31 pmAnd of course this is the first time a Fregat was launched on a Soyuz ?Exactly. Even if they know (seems they do) Fregat tried the almost-360-degrees maneuver (in pitch or yaw, rumors differ) and couldn't finish it before engine start time, they need to understand why Fregat tried this fo the first time in this particular launch.No not at all, I don't think they 'know' this.This sounds like someone in the industry who happens to know that they use different azimuth calculations just said 'well this is possible', and while yes it is technically possibly, I doesn't seem from that published report that someone seriously thinks this is indeed what happened.We see this all the time in any type of failure/accident. Someone who knows how the machine works says 'well this is possible' and the media runs with it as if this expert believes this is what happened. And at least this report is worded quite clearly to say this 'could have happened', so this report is even better than typical.I've never said a word on azimuth calculations or the RIA Novosti news item. We suspect (and the AIB lead by Oleg Skorobogatov knows) Fregat did make a suicidal burn being in wrong attitude. The current version is that Fregat started the pre-burn attitude maneuver in a wrong direction which took inacceptably long time and led to bad attitude at burn start. The problem is to find why the direction was wrong.And well, to mn. Yes, this specific version of Soyuz-2 named 372РН17 was used for the first time, and for the first time with Fregat.
I would have thought an upper stage would be using 360 degree gyro... maybe not?