Author Topic: Dragon Mars flyby for the first FH flight  (Read 30498 times)

Offline Zed_Noir

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5469
  • Canada
  • Liked: 1801
  • Likes Given: 1296
Re: Dragon Mars flyby for the first FH flight
« Reply #20 on: 09/05/2011 07:03 pm »
Come to think of it. We don't really need the Dragon capsule for a Mars or Luna flyby mission.

All it require is a modified Dragon trunk. Put an optical array inside  the trunk. Increase the internal battery capacity. Add same secondary sensors.

Replace the Dragon with a hypergolic engine array and spherical propellant tanks inside a payload fairing.

So the spacecraft stack would be upside down compare to most  spacecrafts.

Wonder if such a demonstrator be put together on a small budget and compact development team in time for the inaugural  FH laubch.

It isn't that simple.  The avionics are in the dragon.
hypergolic engine arrays and spherical propellant tanks are just laying around to be used.

The fairing and trunk would interfere with each other since they attach to the second stage at the same interface

Was thinking of a short new 3.66m diameter nose cone mounted on the Dragon trunk and jettison like the Dragon capsule.

Offline spacetraveler

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 687
  • Atlanta, GA
  • Liked: 165
  • Likes Given: 26
Re: Dragon Mars flyby for the first FH flight
« Reply #21 on: 09/05/2011 07:52 pm »
Off topic, but I've got to ask the question: which ULA rockets have exploded? Perhaps you could post a link to support this assertion?

Yeah that was a misstatement, I was thinking of the Delta II and Delta III missions which exploded, but those were before ULA formed. The only failures of the ULA era have been improper orbits, not total losses.
« Last Edit: 09/05/2011 07:52 pm by spacetraveler »

Offline hop

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3352
  • Liked: 553
  • Likes Given: 891
Re: Dragon Mars flyby for the first FH flight
« Reply #22 on: 09/05/2011 08:11 pm »
DOD is not going to allow their stuff to fly on something that is not proven successful, which is why a failure of FH early in the lifecycle would hurt SpaceX.
DOD knows that rockets fail, just like everyone else in the business does. The first Delta IV heavy flight failed. Fortunately for the DOD, they knew rockets tend to fail so they required a test flight before trusting their billion dollar payloads to it.

The "ULA 100% success rate gold standard" thing is nonsense. The only reason ULA haven't had a full failure yet is they haven't flown very many missions.

Rockets fail, and new rockets fail more frequently. If the F9 inaugural flight fails, that will certainly be a setback for SpaceX, but it won't be a big surprise, and shouldn't be a fatal blow by itself.

The fact that new rockets tend to fail does suggest no one (SpaceX or a third party) will put a really high value payload on the first F9H flight.

Offline baldusi

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8356
  • Buenos Aires, Argentina
  • Liked: 2539
  • Likes Given: 8267
Re: Dragon Mars flyby for the first FH flight
« Reply #23 on: 09/05/2011 08:30 pm »
DOD is not going to allow their stuff to fly on something that is not proven successful, which is why a failure of FH early in the lifecycle would hurt SpaceX.
DOD knows that rockets fail, just like everyone else in the business does. The first Delta IV heavy flight failed. Fortunately for the DOD, they knew rockets tend to fail so they required a test flight before trusting their billion dollar payloads to it.

The "ULA 100% success rate gold standard" thing is nonsense. The only reason ULA haven't had a full failure yet is they haven't flown very many missions.

Rockets fail, and new rockets fail more frequently. If the F9 inaugural flight fails, that will certainly be a setback for SpaceX, but it won't be a big surprise, and shouldn't be a fatal blow by itself.

The fact that new rockets tend to fail does suggest no one (SpaceX or a third party) will put a really high value payload on the first F9H flight.

Unless SpaceX has a LAS+EDS prototype. I'm not saying that it should make an abort. But if they officially make it a very lofted launch of a Dragon to test interplanetary speed insertions on the Dragon TPS, it's a win-win.  If all successful, everything is great. If FH fails and LAS works, not such a bad publicity, might actually be spin into the "crew safety" side of the equation. If they learn from failures, an FH failure plus LAS failure would be one heck of a lesson  ;)

Offline kevin-rf

  • Elite Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8823
  • Overlooking the path Mary's little Lamb took..
  • Liked: 1318
  • Likes Given: 306
Re: Dragon Mars flyby for the first FH flight
« Reply #24 on: 09/05/2011 09:00 pm »
I was thinking of the Delta II and Delta III missions which exploded,
What Delta III missions exploded?

The first mission failed due to poor modeling and ran out of hydraulic fluid, thus tumbling and being terminated by the range. It did not explode, it was terminated.

The second mission failed because of a breach in the RL-10. It did not RUD.

The third mission, other than a slight under performance succeeded.

So unless someone secretly flew the Delta III from some south pacific pad none of us know about...
« Last Edit: 09/05/2011 09:01 pm by kevin-rf »
If you're happy and you know it,
It's your med's!

Offline ChileVerde

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1176
  • La frontera
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dragon Mars flyby for the first FH flight
« Reply #25 on: 09/05/2011 09:07 pm »

The launch site is VAFB where almost all flights go into polar orbit. since you don't get a boost from the Earth's rotation, it might be enough to prevent a FH from launching a Dragon to Mars or even the Moon.


True, but, going a bit outside the context of the thread, VAFB has also been used now and then for launches into critical inclination (~63 deg) and retrograde orbits for the military. Most recently, USA 215, which is thought to be the next-generation imaging radar satellite follow-on to LACROSSE, was put into a 123 degree (57 degree retrograde) orbit from there.

Retrograde orbits require some extra amount of oomph, so a bigger rocket might be of interest. Highly speculative, of course, but perhaps something to consider.
"I can’t tell you which asteroid, but there will be one in 2025," Bolden asserted.

Offline notsorandom

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1740
  • Ohio
  • Liked: 438
  • Likes Given: 91
Re: Dragon Mars flyby for the first FH flight
« Reply #26 on: 09/05/2011 09:33 pm »
I'm just reading the tea leaves here, and I am not an expert on the DOD or SpaceX, but I bet that SpaceX will fly a mass simulator payload into an orbit that is common for DOD payloads. That just makes sense to me as the DOD would be the prime customer out of Vandenberg. SpaceX is going to want the DOD's business and the DOD isn't interested in sending a dragon to Mars, the Moon, or anywhere else really. What the DOD is interested in is what can a Falcon Heavy lift, to where, and what the launch is like for the payload.

Also others have a good point when they say that the fairing and payload systems would be different if a Dragon were involved. The fairing has to detach properly and the payload be jettisoned. Falcon Heavy is going to have a bigger fairing and possibly a duel manifest system. It would be good to show that all that works.

The DOD was wise not to risk a satellite on the first Delta IV Heavy launch. The failure of that flight confirmed that. I would bet quite a bit that they will want to see the Falcon Heavy fly at least once before they book a payload. The cost of the demo flight is small in the long run, especially if it adds to customer's confidence in the product.

Offline JohnHunt

  • Member
  • Posts: 3
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dragon Mars flyby for the first FH flight
« Reply #27 on: 09/06/2011 01:09 am »
Didn't SpaceX do an extra unannounced part of the first launch of the Falcon 9?   I nderstand that thy restarted the upper stage engines and put the upper stage somewhere about a third of the way to GEO.  So, could SpaceX do something similar with it's first FH launch.  They could claim that all of it's goals were met so it was 100% successul BUT they went for bonus achievements.  Even if one of the bonus achievements failed, the stated goals of the mission would still have been met.

Launching satellites for the DoD isn't the purpose of SpaceX but rather a means to the ends which is to make mankind a spacefaring species.  So, it shouldn't be too suprising to see them take an extra unnecessary risk.

Offline kevin-rf

  • Elite Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8823
  • Overlooking the path Mary's little Lamb took..
  • Liked: 1318
  • Likes Given: 306
Re: Dragon Mars flyby for the first FH flight
« Reply #28 on: 09/06/2011 01:17 am »
Didn't SpaceX do an extra unannounced part of the first launch of the Falcon 9?   I nderstand that thy restarted the upper stage engines and put the upper stage somewhere about a third of the way to GEO.

Your confusing the first two launches... The first launch, they attempted a restart and it did not go as planned. The second launch they did a restart after dragon separation boosting the US into a high orbit.
If you're happy and you know it,
It's your med's!

Offline ChefPat

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1055
  • Earth, for now
  • Liked: 125
  • Likes Given: 1022
Re: Dragon Mars flyby for the first FH flight
« Reply #29 on: 09/06/2011 02:41 am »
I remember them saying they were in negotiations with a commercial customer for the FH inaugural flight. I can't find any references to it though.
Playing Politics with Commercial Crew is Un-American!!!

Offline go4mars

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3748
  • Earth
  • Liked: 158
  • Likes Given: 3463
Re: Dragon Mars flyby for the first FH flight
« Reply #30 on: 09/06/2011 04:17 am »
I would go for a GTO like insertion of a mass simulator. If they feel very confident, they could do a dogleg or plane change with the second stage, just to show the capabilities to potential clients. If they are really serious, and want to do any kind of extra demonstration, I would put a dual satellite dispenser (but not tell anybody about it),and try to do a dual manifested payload simulation. With that they would have demonstrated almost everything needed for competing with Ariane 5 and Proton (save East Coast launch pad).

In the absence of a customer, I like this thought.  But what if they had a dragon inside the PLF as the second payload?  Could the US accomplish the dogleg/plane change, GTO mass simulator, then also send a dragon on an Earth free-return around the moon?  That would score lot's of "cool" points, as well as bringing interesting dragon data.  Combine with '1st propulsive landing' as well?
« Last Edit: 09/06/2011 04:34 am by go4mars »
Elasmotherium; hurlyburly Doggerlandic Jentilak steeds insouciantly gallop in viridescent taiga, eluding deluginal Burckle's abyssal excavation.

Offline docmordrid

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6333
  • Michigan
  • Liked: 4204
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Dragon Mars flyby for the first FH flight
« Reply #31 on: 09/06/2011 04:26 am »
It certainly would throw ice water on the "Dragon is LEO only" mantra.   
If they do pull something like this I hope they pack a complete set of radiation and particle detectors for the trip. That data would be very interesting.
« Last Edit: 09/06/2011 04:27 am by docmordrid »
DM

Offline Lars_J

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6160
  • California
  • Liked: 677
  • Likes Given: 195
Re: Dragon Mars flyby for the first FH flight
« Reply #32 on: 09/06/2011 07:13 am »
Yep, sending an reused unmanned Dragon on a lunar free return trajectory would be a cool accomplishment.

Of course, any lunar launch will have limited launch windows from VAFB, (twice monthly from polar orbit), unless they planned on spending a lot of propellant on such a stunt.

Offline kevin-rf

  • Elite Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8823
  • Overlooking the path Mary's little Lamb took..
  • Liked: 1318
  • Likes Given: 306
Re: Dragon Mars flyby for the first FH flight
« Reply #33 on: 09/06/2011 01:10 pm »
Of course, any lunar launch will have limited launch windows from VAFB, (twice monthly from polar orbit), unless they planned on spending a lot of propellant on such a stunt.
Also requires very tight and smoothly executed countdowns for a vehicle that is still in development...
If you're happy and you know it,
It's your med's!

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37439
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 21448
  • Likes Given: 428
Re: Dragon Mars flyby for the first FH flight
« Reply #34 on: 09/06/2011 01:30 pm »

In the absence of a customer, I like this thought.  But what if they had a dragon inside the PLF as the second payload?

You are doing the stacking thing again.  Spacex has never mentioned dual payload. 
Anyways, if it is to simulate a GTO payload, there is no mass left for another.

Offline go4mars

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3748
  • Earth
  • Liked: 158
  • Likes Given: 3463
Re: Dragon Mars flyby for the first FH flight
« Reply #35 on: 09/06/2011 03:37 pm »
You are doing the stacking thing again. 

Yes.  But couldn't a dumb mass-simulator just sit on a platform above a dragon within the PLF?

Spacex has never mentioned dual payload. 

I am certain Shotwell was talking about it around the time they first announced F9H (back when they were talking about 30000kg or so to LEO).

Anyways, if it is to simulate a GTO payload, there is no mass left for another.
Even if they do cross-feeding?  Plus dragon has some delta-V as well.  Would this really be impossible?
« Last Edit: 09/06/2011 04:30 pm by go4mars »
Elasmotherium; hurlyburly Doggerlandic Jentilak steeds insouciantly gallop in viridescent taiga, eluding deluginal Burckle's abyssal excavation.

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37439
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 21448
  • Likes Given: 428
Re: Dragon Mars flyby for the first FH flight
« Reply #36 on: 09/06/2011 04:08 pm »
You are doing the stacking thing again. 

Yes.  But couldn't a dumb mass-simulator just sit on a platform above a dragon within the PLF?

Spacex has never mentioned dual payload. 

I am certain Shotwell was talking about it around the time they first announced F9H (back when they were talking about 30000kg or so to LEO).

Anyways, if it is to simulate a GTO payload, there is no mass left for another.
Even if they do cross-feeding?  Plus dragon has some delta-V as well.  Would tihs really be impossible?

The "platform" is not a simple item.

Offline kevin-rf

  • Elite Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8823
  • Overlooking the path Mary's little Lamb took..
  • Liked: 1318
  • Likes Given: 306
Re: Dragon Mars flyby for the first FH flight
« Reply #37 on: 09/06/2011 05:29 pm »
I thought they where launching Jim in a Dragon around the bark side of mars for the first Heavy launch ;)

A simple "platform" would obstruct his view...
If you're happy and you know it,
It's your med's!

Offline mlorrey

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2173
  • International Spaceflight Museum
  • Grantham, NH
  • Liked: 23
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Dragon Mars flyby for the first FH flight
« Reply #38 on: 09/07/2011 08:50 am »
I thought they where launching Jim in a Dragon around the bark side of mars for the first Heavy launch ;)

A simple "platform" would obstruct his view...

Jim cannot leave Earth, if he did, the NSF forums would become overrun by naive dreamers and overoptimistic people with can-do attitudes.
VP of International Spaceflight Museum - http://ismuseum.org
Founder, Lorrey Aerospace, B&T Holdings, ACE Exchange, and Hypersonic Systems. Currently I am a venture recruiter for Family Office Venture Capital.

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37439
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 21448
  • Likes Given: 428
Re: Dragon Mars flyby for the first FH flight
« Reply #39 on: 09/07/2011 01:10 pm »

Jim cannot leave Earth, if he did, the NSF forums would become overrun by naive dreamers and overoptimistic people with can-do attitudes.

And what have you done lately that involves actual hardware getting into space?

I just point out that modifying launch vehicles is not the same as car mods/conversions.

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
0