Author Topic: Happy July 4th Independence Day  (Read 70456 times)

Online Chris Bergin

Re: Happy July 4th Independence Day
« Reply #40 on: 07/04/2009 05:22 pm »
Happy July 4th!

And yes, Roddick was awesome.
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Offline pierogoletto

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Re: Happy July 4th Independence Day
« Reply #41 on: 07/04/2009 07:29 pm »
Happy Independence Day. Best Regards from Italy.
Piero Giuseppe Goletto

Offline Antares

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Re: Happy July 4th Independence Day
« Reply #42 on: 07/04/2009 11:41 pm »
Do freedom, liberty and personal responsibility (since accounts say other space programs lacked) allow a country to put men on the Moon? I'd like to think so. The current status of those 3 ideals on 7/4/09 are left as an exercise to the reader.
If I like something on NSF, it's probably because I know it to be accurate.  Every once in a while, it's just something I agree with.  Facts generally receive the former.

Offline alphas

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Re: Happy July 4th Independence Day
« Reply #43 on: 07/05/2009 08:05 pm »
Please find my best wishes for the July 4th Independence Day weekend.

Since the post was first made yesterday July 4th night, it might not make it for everyone's day time, hence the weekend message.
« Last Edit: 07/05/2009 08:06 pm by alphas »

Online Chris Bergin

Re: Happy July 4th Independence Day
« Reply #44 on: 07/04/2010 02:50 pm »
Bump :)

Happy July 4 - sorry about all that taxation without representation ;)
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Offline Orbiter

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Re: Happy July 4th Independence Day
« Reply #45 on: 07/04/2010 02:55 pm »
Happy 4th of July everyone!

Orbiter
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Offline Space Pete

Re: Happy July 4th Independence Day
« Reply #46 on: 07/04/2010 03:02 pm »
Happy 4th of July from Doug Wheelock via Twitter!

The caption for Image 1 reads:
Quote
To my beloved Doris Stone, and all that love peace and freedom…Grace and Peace on this blessed Independence Day! From the Node 2 ‘Harmony Module’ in the U.S. Segment, with Sonny Stone’s Congressional Medal of Honor…”No greater love…”

The caption for Image 2 reads:
Quote
In celebration of freedom and liberty…Happy 4th from the ISS Russian Segment! Photos of Tsiolkovsky and Gagarin keep a watchful eye on us in the ISS Command Post. The Congressional Medal of Honor is with us in tribute to all those that sacrifice all they know and love so people can breathe free.


The medal belongs to Vietnam hero Lester Stone, who was killed in combat. Wheels took the medal into space with him. Full article: www.wicz.com/news2005/viewarticle.asp?a=13832
« Last Edit: 07/04/2010 03:25 pm by Space Pete »
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Offline GoForTLI

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Re: Happy July 4th Independence Day
« Reply #47 on: 07/04/2010 03:44 pm »
Nice mention, Space Pete. 

Happy Independence Day!  Hope you Brits don't hold the whole 1776 thing against us. 

Nice words from STS-121 CDR Steve Lindsey 4 years ago today: "For all the folks along the Florida east coast we hope to very soon give you an up-close and personal look at the rocket's red glare."
There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. -- Douglas Adams

Offline SimonShuttle

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Re: Happy July 4th Independence Day
« Reply #48 on: 07/04/2010 04:11 pm »
Happy July 4.


Hope you Brits don't hold the whole 1776 thing against us. 


Never have, we don't see today as a defeat or a bad thing. People who think there's a few unpopular wars in modern day history need to read up on the British side of the war of independence. Now that was one very unpopular war as we literally sent troops to kill our own people.

Offline Martin FL

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Re: Happy July 4th Independence Day
« Reply #49 on: 07/04/2010 04:40 pm »
Happy July 4th everyone!

Offline HIPAR

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Re: Happy July 4th Independence Day
« Reply #50 on: 07/04/2010 05:25 pm »
Here's our declaration:

http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/freedom/doi/text.html

I can't believe King George was that evil; he was a proponent of things scientific.  Scientists, generally speaking, are reasonable people.

George would have found a way to close our human launch gap if he were in charge now.   ;)

---  CHAS

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Happy July 4th Independence Day
« Reply #51 on: 07/04/2010 10:19 pm »

I can't believe King George was that evil; he was a proponent of things scientific.  Scientists, generally speaking, are reasonable people.

George III was very forward and progressive.  He was standardising how Governors were appointed.

In the lead up to the US War of Independence his courts had banned slavery in England and Scotland.  The colonies were next.  A policy that was unlikely to be popular in the 'Southern States'.

Offline cd-slam

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Re: Happy July 4th Independence Day
« Reply #52 on: 07/05/2010 12:33 am »
True, but more to the actual "casus belli" it was the British parliament which enacted the hated Tea Act and Intolerable Acts. King George III had little or no involvement in either of these.
But the Declaration of Independence had to be directed against the head of state, hence the language.

Offline Ronsmytheiii

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Re: Happy July 4th Independence Day
« Reply #53 on: 07/05/2010 03:39 am »
True, but more to the actual "casus belli" it was the British parliament which enacted the hated Tea Act and Intolerable Acts. King George III had little or no involvement in either of these.
But the Declaration of Independence had to be directed against the head of state, hence the language.

Actually there was an underlying thread, before the 7 years war the English government really did not exert that much influence in the colonies due to ongoing domestic in fighting and European warfare. After the seven years war the British started to reassert their power over the colonies which due to years of practically self-rule were understandably resentful.

Offline ChrisGebhardt

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Re: Happy July 4th Independence Day
« Reply #54 on: 07/05/2010 03:54 am »
Good stuff brihath!

I should start a poll...

Who here thinks Chris and the gang does such a great job, they need to log off and take the 4th of July long weekend off??

Thanks, but not really a fan of time off. You only live once and you've got to make the most of it, etc. ;D

Thing is, I'd be on here as a hobby, nevermind actually being one of the people that gets to write the articles. Besides, I've got Army first thing tomorrow and then we've got at least four articles worth of L2 content to write up as news content (time sensitive) - would rather be doing that than being in the pub (football season doesn't start till August anyway :D)

I have to agree (even though this was first written a couple years ago). The first thing I did today was ask Chris about upcoming articles this week. :) Here because I love this site and because I want to be here. So writing continues... always. Heck... I think Chris B and I were even writing over Christmas and New Year's 2009/2010.
« Last Edit: 07/05/2010 03:57 am by ChrisGebhardt »

Offline Mark Max Q

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Re: Happy July 4th Independence Day
« Reply #55 on: 07/05/2010 04:10 am »
Happy July 4.

What I admire about the US is a lot of you have American flags flying on and outside your houses. I REALLY wish we would do that here and not just for when England are playing in the World Cup. National pride is more than just sport.

Totally agree. The respect for the flag is what the Americans have spot on. Our national pride seems reserved to England national team matches (football or soccer if you are American). We don't have the best anthem in the world, but 100,000 belting it out makes it special :)



Ironically, the Americans don't tend to do national anthems at their sporting events, it seems to be left to a singer?

That is impressive!

VERY impressive! Been watching the World Cup and I had no idea how seriously it's taken until I started watching the games from when the teams come out and sing their national anthems.
« Last Edit: 07/05/2010 04:13 am by Mark Max Q »

Offline STS Tony

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Re: Happy July 4th Independence Day
« Reply #56 on: 07/05/2010 04:22 am »

I can't believe King George was that evil; he was a proponent of things scientific.  Scientists, generally speaking, are reasonable people.

George III was very forward and progressive.  He was standardising how Governors were appointed.

In the lead up to the US War of Independence his courts had banned slavery in England and Scotland.  The colonies were next.  A policy that was unlikely to be popular in the 'Southern States'.

It's interesting to read the declaration again as it reads as if it's directed at the King, rather than the country. Lots of "He" etc.

How long, and what did it take, for us to go from enemies to allies?
« Last Edit: 07/05/2010 04:23 am by STS Tony »

Offline Justin Space

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Re: Happy July 4th Independence Day
« Reply #57 on: 07/05/2010 09:57 am »
King George III was ahead of his time, but he liked Empire building and hated the French. A mix between Branson and Rumsfeld if you like ;D

You could probably say America was born out of Anglo-French wars, as we beat them ahead of the War of Independence, France then comes to the rescue of America (eventually and more to take out British ships than help America), and then we go over and beat them again, this time taking out Napoleon.

Then movies like The Patriot come out, which is a joke of a film as far as historically accurate.

Someone mentioned the war was unpopular with the UK public. Well initially it was highly popular. Remember, different times, we owned a third of the planet and had the best military. More so it became popular and enlistment was sky high, when word got back of British troops being murdered in New England. Lots of outrage as they lost their lives by following the rules of engagement, and the locals were acting as insurgents, otherwise the locals wouldn't of stood a chance.

The popular idea was we'd send over 250,000 troops or so into Canada, take New York, then news would get back we were massing to the north and you'd all say "sorry, please don't send in the Army". Everyone would be home in time for Christmas and the troops get paid for what was a holiday in Canada. So much for

Fast forward. The war then became very unpopular as it turned into a full on war. Tens of thousands marched to surround the Houses of Parliament in 1780 over the war, and other issues with the government, very much as depicted in V for Vendetta (although Guy Fawkes was 200 years earlier and the movie is based in the future). The writer said the scene was inspired by newspaper reports of the 1780 protest and riots.



But George III gets and unfair deal from American historians, looking for a villian.

"I was the last to consent to the separation; but the separation having been made and having become inevitable, I have always said, as I say now, that I would be the first to meet the friendship of the United States as an independent power." George III to John Adams, first American minister to Britain.
« Last Edit: 07/05/2010 09:58 am by Justin Space »

Offline Evo

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Re: Happy July 4th Independence Day
« Reply #58 on: 07/05/2010 12:44 pm »
I picked up a book titled "A History of the American People" by Paul Johnson for about $20 in a bookshop in one of the Florida malls. 

I'd highly recommend it, though it's a bit dry for something to read cover to cover.  I sarcastically call it "A Brief History of the American People" in reference to it's 1088 pages.

The prelude to peace is described in two sections chiefly - "Madison's Blunders and their Punishment" and "Jackson and the Destruction of the Indians".  If it wasn't for the human tragedy the incompetence of both sides would be hillarious.

I've summarised the main bits here.  I apologise in advance if this is a too long winded and OT.

During the 1812 war, Madison thought the French Canadians would welcome him and his militias with open arms but instead they feared being converted from Catholic to Protestant and strongly resisted.  Madison also felt that the British Canadians would be too weak and thinly distributed to form any resistance.  Again this was wrong.  The final nail was that his own militias spent more time fighting amongst themselves than seizing Canada.

"The generals blamed each other.  General Peter B. Porter accused General Alexander Smyth, in the pages of the Buffalo Gazette, of arrant cowardice.  They fought a comic-opera dual on Grand Island: no one was hurt but their buffoonery disgusted their men."

"The militias often fought each other with more enthusiasm than they tackled the British.  In the camp at Black Rock, Irish Greens from New York waged a pitched battle with the Southern Volunteers, and both turned on the regular troops sent to separate them.  The civilian public jeered.  The US Light Dragoons, raised in 1808 with the initials USLD on their caps, were branded Uncle Sam's Lady Dogs.  By the end of 1813 the invasion of Canada had been effectively abandoned."

Madison's sea forces fared much better though.  A mixture of American Navy (ironically chiefly crewed by British crews) and privateers wrecked havoc on the Royal Navy in the Western Approaches.

"By 1813, when stories of the American attack on Canada and the burning of towns and villages reached Britain, there was outrage and calls for revenge."

Poet Laureate Robert Southey said:

"I would run down the [American] coast, and treat the great towns with an exhibition of rockets... [until] they chose to put a stop to the illuminations by submission, or till Philadelphia, New York, Baltimore etc were laid in Ashes."

"Southey's suggestion, coming from a man not normally bloodthirsty, reflected the exasperation of the British people with war."

"Armstrong sent an order to General William Harrison, the future President, with instructions to conciliate the Indians, turn them loose on the Canadians, and convert the British settlements on the Thames River into a Desert.  He also gave General McClure discretion to burn Newark.  Madison commanded the Thames order be revoked, and he disavowed the burning of Newark.  Terror was never officially White House policy, and one colonel was court-martialled for a town-burning.  Nevertheless, many setttlers were murdered and their houses torched.  Bearing in mind that Britain was free to retaliate, with an enormous army of ninety-nine battleships and numerous smaller vessels, and a with a large army of Peninsular War veterans, Madison's conduct makes no sense."

When the British did eventually land on the Chesapeake in 1814, everyone seemed to be surprised.  5000 troops were landed and then removed a month later essentially unscathed.

"The British entered Washington, which was now undefended, on Wednesday, August 24.  There was a good deal of cowardice as well as incompetence."

"The Middle States, like the West and South, had been strongly for the war.  Yet their resistance to invasion was pitiful.  As one American historian put it, 'In Maryland, Virginia and Pennsylvania there were living not far from 1.5 million of whites.  Yet this great population remained in its towns and cities and suffered 5000 Englishmen to spend five weeks in its midst without once attemtpting to send the invaders from its soil.'  Hence the British were able to take their time about humiliating Washington."
 
Up steps Andrew Jackson.  The book talks about his well known early life but this bit tickled me:

"'Great God!' responded Jackson, 'do you dare mention her sacred name?'  Pistols were drawn - the men being aged fifty-eight and thirty-six respectively - and shots were fired but only a passer by was injured."

He then led his troups to clear the South of the Indians.  In no small part because:

"The British pursued a systematic policy of organizing and arming minorites against the United States..."
"... British major Edward Nicholas, with four officers and 108 Royal Marines, armed and to some extent trained over 4,000 Creeks and Seminoles, distributing 3,000 muskets, 1,000 carbines, 1,000 pistols, 500 rifles, and a million rounds of ammunition."

So, when the 1812 war broke out, the millitant Creeks joined in enthusiastically, some of them travelling as far north as Canada, to massacre the demoralised Americans.

Time for some British incompetence... Jackson and many troops had New Orleans strongly defended.

"Even so, it could have been outflanked.  And that was the British intention.  Jackson's main defence was behind Rodriguez's Canal, a ditch 4 feet deep and 10 feet wide, which was reinforced by a high mud rampart.  The British land commander, General Sir Edward Pakenham, a stupendously brave but impatient man - 'not the brightest genius', as his brother-in-law the Duke of Wellington put it, planned a two-pronged assault, up the almost undefended left bank of the Mississippi, to take the rampart from the rear, while his troops in the front kept the defenders occupied.  But the force landed in the wrong place and fell behind schedule.  Pakenham decided he could not wait and, relying on the sheer professionalism of his veterans, decided on a frontal assault alone and fired the two congreves, which were the signal for attack.  A frontal assault against a strongly defended position not enfiladed from the rear was a textbook example of folly that would have made Wellington dispair.  It became even more murderous when the leading batallion failed to bring up the fascines to fill the ditch and the ladders to scale the rampart.  The result was a pointless slaughter of brave men."

"... Jackson lost only 13 killed, the British 291, with another 484 missing and over a thousand wounded."

"Three days later the first rumours arrived that Britain and America had made peace."

It had taken both sides 6 months to negotiate the terms of the peace.  The book attributes this to Maddison puzzlingly chosing a negotiating team filled with people who disagreed with each other on almost everything.  However, the Treaty of Ghent was signed in 1814 and, as John Quincy Adams hoped, this proved to be the last treaty of peace needed between Great Britain and the United States.

Offline zerm

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Re: Happy July 4th Independence Day
« Reply #59 on: 07/05/2010 02:18 pm »
Can anyone honestly imagine this happening today?


« Last Edit: 07/05/2010 02:19 pm by zerm »

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