Author Topic: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online  (Read 34176 times)

Offline kcowing

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*FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« on: 12/31/2005 01:13 AM »
NASA ESAS Final Report November 2005: TEXT OF FULL REPORT
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=19094

Editor's note:  several days ago we posted a final (October 2005) draft of this report. We have since come across the final version of the report (November 2005) which has recently been approved by NASA Administrator Michael Griffin. In order to present the most accurate version of this report, we have removed the draft version and replaced it with the final version of the report. NASA is expected to publicly release this report in early January 2006.

Offline Chris Bergin

RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #1 on: 12/31/2005 01:23 AM »
Thanks Keith, obviously more relevant to have the final version - so ice on your servers again - but for reference did they change much, such as costs or anything else of note - to the best of your knowledge?

Offline Chris Bergin

RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #2 on: 12/31/2005 01:28 AM »
Damn. Nice cover on the first PDF, then hit with a brick on page 16. Looks like a big read again!

Check out the Mars transport on page 16 (figure 1-8).

Offline kcowing

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #3 on: 12/31/2005 01:28 AM »
Quote
Chris Bergin - 30/12/2005  8:23 PM

Thanks Keith, obviously more relevant to have the final version - so ice on your servers again - but for reference did they change much, such as costs or anything else of note - to the best of your knowledge?

I am just starting to get my arms around the new version (not that I had memorized the draft version).  I don't believe - and have been told - that the changes are major.

Offline kcowing

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #4 on: 12/31/2005 01:29 AM »
Quote
kcowing - 30/12/2005  8:28 PM

Quote
Chris Bergin - 30/12/2005  8:23 PM

Thanks Keith, obviously more relevant to have the final version - so ice on your servers again - but for reference did they change much, such as costs or anything else of note - to the best of your knowledge?

I am just starting to get my arms around the new version (not that I had memorized the draft version).  I don't believe - and have been told - that the changes are major.

Let me revise myself - I don't think the changes are major - and I have been told by sources that they are not major.

Offline Chris Bergin

RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #5 on: 12/31/2005 01:38 AM »
It'd of been a nightmare to try and cross-reference, but the graphic which gained most of the attention on the first look at the draft version (two pages on Spaceref, one on NASAWatch) was the Mars transport.

Figure 1-8 is new, different from the draft.

The transport is similar to this:


Offline Jamie Young

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #6 on: 12/31/2005 01:43 AM »
That's the ship from the 1998 NTR report, different propulsion stage? http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/reports/2002/TM-1998-208834-REV1.pdf

Offline Chris Bergin

RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #7 on: 12/31/2005 01:45 AM »
Ok, from the first PDF, they've improved some of the graphics - the major one being figure 1-8 which gives a much clearer identity on the MTV.

Offline psloss

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #8 on: 12/31/2005 02:00 AM »
I'm being redundant, but...

Thanks, Keith.

Offline Davros

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #9 on: 12/31/2005 02:13 AM »
Andy and others who know what this MTV could be, does it give any more clues to you?

Offline ADC9

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #10 on: 12/31/2005 02:20 AM »
It's two part cargo, so does that mean it's not a tank of LH2 or LOX at the back?

Offline Chris Bergin

RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #11 on: 12/31/2005 02:28 AM »
Lots of additional on Document 6. It's past 3am here, so I don't know how much more my brain will take. Keep summarising people!

Offline Ad Astra

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #12 on: 12/31/2005 02:46 AM »
Document six is very interesting!

Lunar/ Mars cargo transport! FIVE SSMEs


Offline vt_hokie

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #13 on: 12/31/2005 02:47 AM »
I find it all rather depressing, knowing that this program is going to eat up a good portion of NASA's budget for the next 20 or 30 years at least, simply so that we can send a few astronauts into space at a cost of billions of dollars using 1960's style capsules launched on 1970's vintage space shuttle rockets.  Gone is any hope of real advancement along the lines of what was envisioned during the NASP or VentureStar programs.  I guess the era of taking on tough challenges is over, and NASA is resigning itself to taking the easy road.  

I sincerely hope that some other nation or nations pick up where we left off in areas such as hypersonics research, scramjet propulsion, RLV development, and other groundbreaking research and development.  While I would like to see the United States remain a leader and a pioneer in aerospace, if my country is no longer going to do it, I'd certainly like to see someone do it!

Offline Flightstar

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #14 on: 12/31/2005 02:50 AM »
But we don't want to stay in LEO. I love the Orbiters, but this is a new stage, a stage I was involved in when I joined the program. Why would you want to stick to LEO?

Offline Bruce H

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #15 on: 12/31/2005 02:55 AM »
Now let's get it off paper.

Quote
vt_hokie - 30/12/2005  9:47 PM

I find it all rather depressing, knowing that this program is going to eat up a good portion of NASA's budget for the next 20 or 30 years at least, simply so that we can send a few astronauts into space at a cost of billions of dollars using 1960's style capsules launched on 1970's vintage space shuttle rockets.  Gone is any hope of real advancement along the lines of what was envisioned during the NASP or VentureStar programs.  I guess the era of taking on tough challenges is over, and NASA is resigning itself to taking the easy road.  

I sincerely hope that some other nation or nations pick up where we left off in areas such as hypersonics research, scramjet propulsion, RLV development, and other groundbreaking research and development.  While I would like to see the United States remain a leader and a pioneer in aerospace, if my country is no longer going to do it, I'd certainly like to see someone do it!

I worked with what was going to be the VentureStar. There's a lot of love for the X-33 here http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/photos/photo-thumbnails.asp?albumid=3 and several threads and videos. But she was only going to be what was hoped a cheap payload delievery system to LEO. Yes, a great concept, but only for that aspect.

This is NOT about sending a few astronauts into space. Read the documents, it's about exploration, setting up bases, moving on, exploring Mars with manned missions, setting up bases and so on. It's a new direction and has nothing to do with the VentureStar. Apples and Oranges.

Offline Mark Max Q

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #16 on: 12/31/2005 02:56 AM »
Quote
Ad Astra - 30/12/2005  9:46 PM

Document six is very interesting!

Lunar/ Mars cargo transport! FIVE SSMEs


5 x 5 seg boosters?!

Offline Orbiter Obvious

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #17 on: 12/31/2005 03:06 AM »
Anyone know what this means:

"6.6.3.2.3 Flight Performance Analysis and Trajectory Design
Major events in the trajectory and LV characteristics are shown in Figure 6-41. The analyses
of the four EDS case studies are shown in Figures 6-42 and 6-43. Selected trajectory parameters
are shown in Figures 6-44 through Figure 6-47. This vehicle T/W ratio at liftoff is 1.43.
The vehicle reaches a maximum dynamic pressure of 561 psf at 72.7 sec. The maximum acceleration
with boosters attached is 2.32 g’s, while the core hits a max of 2.83 g’s before burnout,
and the EDS stops accelerating at 1.46 g’s prior to Main Engine Cutoff (MECO). The fivesegment
SRBs separate 132.52 sec into the burn at an altitude of 154,235 ft and Mach 3.9. The
core burns out at 408.2 sec, having reached an altitude of 408,090 ft at Mach 12.1. From this
point, the EDS ignites and burns 264,690 lb of propellant to reach orbit. The T/W ratio of the
core after SRB separation is 1.04, and 0.84 after EDS ignition. Orbital injection occurs 626 sec
after liftoff at 78.3 nmi."

Seems like a hell of a lot of engines and power to only get to 78.3 miles above the earth, what am I missing here?

Offline vt_hokie

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #18 on: 12/31/2005 03:13 AM »
Quote
I worked with what was going to be the VentureStar.

Me too, briefly.  Not that I did much, being fresh out of college and rather clueless!  ;)  But X-33 was the first project I was assigned to after I graduated from school.  

Quote
This is NOT about sending a few astronauts into space. Read the documents, it's about exploration, setting up bases, moving on, exploring Mars with manned missions, setting up bases and so on. It's a new direction and has nothing to do with the VentureStar. Apples and Oranges.

I don't really see us going back to the moon in a significantly more meaningful way than we did during Apollo. Assuming the funding is there to support the current plan, and assuming that everything goes smoothly, we'll send 4 people to the moon in an incrementally more capable way than Apollo, and not for another 12 years or more. And any talk of Mars is pure fantasy, as it will take a lot more funding and more technology than the "CEV" will give us in order to pull that off. We haven't even begun to tackle the radiation exposure problem or devise the required debris impact protection, among many other things, in order to enable serious human exploration beyond the Earth-Moon system.

As long as we're spending billions of dollars in order to send 4 people into space two or three times a year, we won't get very far in terms of opening up the space frontier.  We need to make access to space safer, more affordable, and more routine before we start worrying about lunar bases and such.  Updated Apollo capsules and 1970's-era shuttle hardware are not going to get us there.  I suppose that because I grew up with the promise of routine spaceflight in the new century, and lived through the disappointment of seeing the United States give up on one ambitious project after another, it's kind of hard to get excited about returning to 1960's style spaceflight, where our crews float down by parachute in a tin can.  It's as if we're just giving up.  NASA could best sum up the rationale for its new architecture by saying, "We choose to go back to the moon not because it is hard, but because it is easy!"  Personally, I found projects like NASP and VentureStar to be infinitely more exciting and promising than "ESAS", even if it does result in sending a few NASA astronauts back to the moon for a few days.


Offline Super George

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #19 on: 12/31/2005 03:14 AM »
Anyone come across anything new on the SHAB?

Offline James Lowe1

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #20 on: 12/31/2005 03:19 AM »
For reference, a lot of subjects have been pre-discussed on here:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=1112&start=1 - Draft report.

and here http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=1086&start=1 - First pages of the Draft.

Over 300 posts of reference, worth a cross check via search on the topbar.

Offline Flightstar

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #21 on: 12/31/2005 03:22 AM »
VT have you read the report? I get the impression from your comment that you haven't.

Offline vt_hokie

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #22 on: 12/31/2005 03:26 AM »
Quote
Flightstar - 30/12/2005  11:22 PM

VT have you read the report? I get the impression from your comment that you haven't.

No, but unless things have changed, our next generation crew transport is nothing but a 1960's style capsule launched by a shuttle SRB (with a single SSME upper stage) that will make a parachute "landing".  As Russia prepares to advance beyond capsules with Kliper, we're regressing!

I do agree with the development of a heavy lift vehicle, and the "Shuttle Derived Heavy Lift Vehicle" is one part of the plan I can't fault, except for the use of expensive SSME's that will be thrown away on each launch.

Offline Firestarter

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #23 on: 12/31/2005 03:30 AM »
"LV 27.3 is capable of 125 mt to LEO"

Offline Launch Fan

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #24 on: 12/31/2005 03:41 AM »
I can't find it in the document, but I searched the Acronyms and Abbreviations and it notes that the document does talk about PNST Prrometheus Nuclear Systems Technology, NUREG Nuclear Regulatory Commission and NTP Nuclear Thermal Propulsion.

Maybe someone who's hanging around late on here would like to search for PNST, NUREG and NTP in the PDFs?

Offline To The Stars

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #25 on: 12/31/2005 03:49 AM »
And this is going to the public release next month?

Will it involve a press conference like last time?

How do we think the media will take to it?

Offline Ad Astra

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #26 on: 12/31/2005 03:51 AM »
Quote
vt_hokie - 30/12/2005  10:26 PM

Quote
Flightstar - 30/12/2005  11:22 PM

VT have you read the report? I get the impression from your comment that you haven't.

No, but unless things have changed.

Read it then, things have changed.

Offline vt_hokie

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #27 on: 12/31/2005 04:01 AM »
Quote
Read it then, things have changed.

I'm actually reading some of it right now.  So far, I'm not impressed.  

As I recently posted over on the space.com message board, until this country develops a true space shuttle replacement - something along the lines of a modern Lockheed "Starclipper" perhaps - I think I'll forever be disappointed with the failure to advance beyond STS, even if we do send humans back to the moon with the "Apollo on steroids" CEV.

Offline Ad Astra

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #28 on: 12/31/2005 04:07 AM »
Quote
vt_hokie - 30/12/2005  11:01 PM

I'm actually reading some of it right now.  So far, I'm not impressed.


Well that's something! :)

As I recently posted over on the space.com message board[/QUOTE]

Well that explains a lot of things! ;)

Offline James Lowe1

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #29 on: 12/31/2005 04:08 AM »
Get back on subject or I'll start using the big red delete button. :)

Offline ADC9

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #30 on: 12/31/2005 04:15 AM »
Quote
Super George - 30/12/2005  10:14 PM

Anyone come across anything new on the SHAB?

Not that I can see.

Offline vt_hokie

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #31 on: 12/31/2005 04:28 AM »
If I may include a brief passage from section 5.3.1.2:

"Winged bodies and lifting bodies (such as X-38, X-24, HL-10, etc.) were eliminated at the outset, due to several factors, including: (1) the extreme heating (especially on empennages) these would encounter on lunar return entries, (2) the additional development time required due to multiple control surfaces, and (3) the increased mass associated with wings, fins, and control surfaces which are huge liabilities in that they must be carried to the Moon and back simply for use on entry."

I would love to know why the very intelligent engineers at Lockheed Martin disagree with this assessment, as Lockheed initially proposed a lifting body design for the CEV.  

In any case, I am a firm believer that a lifting body design is the ideal solution for a LEO transportation system, although it may not be for a direct lunar return scenario.  I think it's a shame that we are going with a less than optimal solution for our LEO transportation needs, in order to have a "one size fits all" vehicle in the CEV.  In that sense, NASA is making the same mistake it made with the space shuttle, which tried to be too many things to too many people.

Offline Orbiter Obvious

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #32 on: 12/31/2005 04:33 AM »
I'm a huge Shuttle fan, but even I know there's no argument against points 1 to 3.

Offline vt_hokie

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #33 on: 12/31/2005 04:44 AM »
Quote
Orbiter Obvious - 31/12/2005  12:33 AM

I'm a huge Shuttle fan, but even I know there's no argument against points 1 to 3.

That's true, but I think the best way to extend our presence beyond LEO is to develop safer, more routine access to LEO with a NASP type of vehicle (not that it has to be SSTO or use scramjets necessarily, but something that gives us cheaper access to space).  Once we can transport significant numbers of people and significant payload mass into orbit affordably, then we can build our LEO - Lunar orbit or LEO - wherever infrastructure and forget this direct ballistic return nonsense.

Offline vt_hokie

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #34 on: 12/31/2005 05:18 AM »
Quote
vanilla - 31/12/2005  1:04 AM
 As you probably know, during the acceleration of the vehicle, the shock structure on the forebody (which typically serves as the compression surface) and the aftbody (which typically serves as the expansion surface) undergoes substantial changes.  Unless the vehicle has an incredible ability to morph, I do not believe that ACCELERATING air-breathing flight at hypersonic speeds will ever be practical.  Flying at one Mach number, like the military is interested in, is a different story.  The shock structure is relatively constant.  Note that the X-43 flight experiment flew at only one Mach number...the number for which it had been designed.  That is one of the reasons I wasn't terribly impressed with their accomplishment.

That's an interesting point that I hadn't considered.  But again, I'm not necessarily pushing scramjets for an orbital vehicle.  I do think that we have the ability to develop a "Shuttle II" and do things right this time.  I always thought that "VentureStar" would've had a better shot as a two stage to orbit system.  

Quote
All that said, there are probably much better ways to improve the payload fraction of a launch vehicle, like air-launching it so that gravity losses and engine pressure losses are significantly reduced.   Then altitude compensation, as exemplified by the XRS-2200 engine built for the X-33, is no longer so important.

Air launching could work with a very small vehicle, but anything of significant size would require a "mother ship" that dwarfs even the AN-225!  

I had looked forward to seeing that linear aerospike engine in action!  Ah well.  I wonder what ever became of the X-33 hardware...

Quote
VT-hokie, what did you do on the X-33 program?

Seriously, not much!  :)  I wasn't assigned to the program for long, but they had me doing some busy work on "requirements analysis" initially.  I worked for AlliedSignal at the time, and they were doing much of the flight software.  I did get a trip to the Skunk Works out of the deal, before I was reassigned to another program!

Offline realtime

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #35 on: 12/31/2005 06:18 AM »
Against ideology, even the most poignant truths have no effect.  

'Nuf said.


Offline Chris Bergin

RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #36 on: 12/31/2005 12:57 PM »
Welcome VT - ironically, we have an X-33 article (of such) which will be of interest to you. Going on in the next 24 hours or so.

Offline Chris Bergin

RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #37 on: 12/31/2005 12:58 PM »
Quote
Launch Fan - 31/12/2005  4:41 AM

I can't find it in the document, but I searched the Acronyms and Abbreviations and it notes that the document does talk about PNST Prrometheus Nuclear Systems Technology, NUREG Nuclear Regulatory Commission and NTP Nuclear Thermal Propulsion.

Maybe someone who's hanging around late on here would like to search for PNST, NUREG and NTP in the PDFs?

I'll have a look.

Offline tommy

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #38 on: 12/31/2005 01:23 PM »
It's an interesting report. One can't be too upset about the level of detail put into this and that alone shows they are serious. Hope it all comes to pass.

Offline SimonShuttle

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #39 on: 12/31/2005 02:00 PM »
If Griffin does another press conference, will he stick with the "this requires no extra money, it's all paid for within the budgets" or will be go with cuts will be needed?

Offline ADC9

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #40 on: 12/31/2005 03:10 PM »
Both :)

Offline Chris Bergin

RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #41 on: 12/31/2005 04:11 PM »
Quote
Launch Fan - 31/12/2005  4:41 AM

I can't find it in the document, but I searched the Acronyms and Abbreviations and it notes that the document does talk about PNST Prrometheus Nuclear Systems Technology, NUREG Nuclear Regulatory Commission and NTP Nuclear Thermal Propulsion.

Maybe someone who's hanging around late on here would like to search for PNST, NUREG and NTP in the PDFs?

NUREG Nuclear Regulatory Commission is new to the final report. Checking what and where this comes in.

Offline vt_hokie

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #42 on: 12/31/2005 04:14 PM »
Quote
vanilla - 31/12/2005  9:23 AM
 If you're interested, I can show you how you can put a Delta II-class payload (~5 MT) into orbit on a two-stage LH2/LOX rocket carried by an aircraft about the size of a 737.  I can assure you that this is far more payload than any VentureStar design was ever capable of lifting.  Perhaps you should start a new thread where we can discuss this.

Yes, I'd be very interested in that!  Maybe I'll start a thread on alternative launch vehicle concepts, if there isn't one here already.  I'd also be interested in discussing other new ideas like maglev assisted launch.

I think I'd like to rescind my earlier comment about not being impressed by the new report.  I may not agree with the strategy or the CEV vehicle design, but the report itself is quite detailed and thorough.  I do understand that the United States probably does not want to allow the Chinese to reach the moon before we return, and I also understand that the physical hardware planned for "CEV" and "SDHLV" is shaped by harsh political and economic realities that force certain compromises.  However, that being said, I still find it rather disheartening that all we have to look forward to for the next 20 or 30 years is a 1960's style beefed up Apollo capsule that will transport 4 elite NASA astronauts maybe three or four times per year.  Because this program will eat up NASA's entire budget, there will be no National Aerospace Planes, no VentureStars...no major breakthroughs for yet another generation unless another nation comes up with them.  

As for private concerns like Scaled and Virgin Galactic, I don't hold out much hope for a groundbreaking, safe, robust orbital system any time in the near future. I'm a huge fan of Burt Rutan and I hope that his Mach 3 suborbital SS2 is a huge success, but that's a hell of a long way from an orbital vehicle, much less an orbital vehicle with the type of redundancy, robustness, and safety that NASA would demand. SpaceShipTwo is to Lockheed's proposed StarClipper what a Cessna 182 is to a Boeing 747! It'll be a long time before private industry can produce a space shuttle class vehicle, I'm afraid. It would take 100 Paul Allens to fund it, as the up-front development costs are tremendous, even if well worthwhile in the long run.

I do still wonder about what exists in the "black world", and I suspect that perhaps the X-24C actually led to some hypersonic vehicle - maybe the "Aurora" that was causing those sky quakes over southern California back in the early 90's - but while the United States may have a Mach 5 - Mach 8 aircraft hidden out in the desert somewhere, I highly doubt that there is a black military shuttle capable of orbital flight.  I will watch with interest to see what DARPA has in mind for X-37, but I would much rather see advanced technology applied for non-military purposes.

Offline Chris Bergin

RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #43 on: 12/31/2005 04:23 PM »
Ok, that nuclear reference is only in relation to:

"4.2.4.1.1.4 CEV Acute and Late R sks
Solar particle events represent the greatest concern for radiation exposure during the shortduration
lunar missions. For estimating acute risks, calculations using the Nuclear Regulatory
Commission (NUREG) fatal accident risk model were performed. The NUREG model is
unable to properly evaluate acute risks (mortality or debilitating sickness) below a 10 percent
probability because of the uncertainties in sigmoid dose-response curves characteristic
of deterministic effects near thresholds. Also, microgravity research suggests that altered
immune and stress responses could skew the lower probabilities of dose responses to reduced
dose levels complicating the evaluation of acute risk near the threshold (<10% risk). Depending
on the baseline CEV design, acute risks are possible for an event with the 1972 spectral
characteristics and 2-4 times the F(>30 MeV) fluence. Future research and analysis will be
needed to establish the correct dose response under these conditions. For a baseline CEV
shielded with targeted >2 g/cm2 of polyethylene shielding, acute effects are unlikely from such
events"

Offline kcowing

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #44 on: 12/31/2005 04:25 PM »
Quote
SimonShuttle - 31/12/2005  9:00 AM

If Griffin does another press conference, will he stick with the "this requires no extra money, it's all paid for within the budgets" or will be go with cuts will be needed?

As I understand things there won't be a press conference. But that could change.

Offline Chris Bergin

RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #45 on: 12/31/2005 04:28 PM »
• The Prometheus Nuclear Systems Technology (PNST) shall receive a funding profile for
this study of $100M in FY06 and $50M in FY07–11 followed by significant increases.

37 references between Draft and Final, expanded in Final. It also has expanded graphs on the costs.

Docs 1, 9, 12, 13 with info. More references through expansion on the final version, as opposed to draft.

Offline Chris Bergin

RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #46 on: 12/31/2005 04:31 PM »
I love this cross reference tool I've found.

Doc 9 on draft and final.

"The ESAS architecture does not address in detail the Mars phase, but it is recognized that
traditional chemical propulsion cannot lead to sustainable Mars exploration with humans.
Nuclear Thermal Propulsion (NTP) is a technology that addresses the propulsion gap for
the human Mars era. NTP’s high acceleration and high specific impulse together enable fast
transit times with reasonable initial mass in LEO. Primary areas of work to be performed in
support of future Mars mission include:
• Retire risks and develop high temperature fuels and materials for NTR operation.
• Identify ground test plans and required facility development. Options include containment
with effluent treatment to scrub rocket exhaust of fission products, or use of tunnels at the
Nevada Test Site (NTS) to trap exhaust.
• Perform systems analysis to define requirements and engine/system trades (cycle, thrust,
T/W, Isp).
• Examine feasibility issues including engine clustering, shielding, testing strategy, engine
cycle, and use of existing engine components."

NEW on the final:

Doc 4:

"The Synthesis Group’s four candidate architectures were Mars Exploration, Science Emphasis
for the Moon and Mars, The Moon to Stay and Mars Exploration, and Space Resource
Utilization. Supporting technologies identified as key for future exploration included:
• HLLV (150–250 mT),
• Nuclear Thermal Propulsion (NTP),
• Nuclear electric surface power,"

Offline Jamie Young

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #47 on: 12/31/2005 04:33 PM »
Nice find!

Offline Jason Sole

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #48 on: 12/31/2005 04:47 PM »
Quote
Chris Bergin - 31/12/2005  11:31 AM

I love this cross reference tool I've found.

Doc 9 on draft and final.

"The ESAS architecture does not address in detail the Mars phase, but it is recognized that
traditional chemical propulsion cannot lead to sustainable Mars exploration with humans.
Nuclear Thermal Propulsion (NTP) is a technology that addresses the propulsion gap for
the human Mars era. NTP’s high acceleration and high specific impulse together enable fast
transit times with reasonable initial mass in LEO. Primary areas of work to be performed in
support of future Mars mission include:
• Retire risks and develop high temperature fuels and materials for NTR operation.
• Identify ground test plans and required facility development. Options include containment
with effluent treatment to scrub rocket exhaust of fission products, or use of tunnels at the
Nevada Test Site (NTS) to trap exhaust.
• Perform systems analysis to define requirements and engine/system trades (cycle, thrust,
T/W, Isp).
• Examine feasibility issues including engine clustering, shielding, testing strategy, engine
cycle, and use of existing engine components."

NEW on the final:

Doc 4:

"The Synthesis Group’s four candidate architectures were Mars Exploration, Science Emphasis
for the Moon and Mars, The Moon to Stay and Mars Exploration, and Space Resource
Utilization. Supporting technologies identified as key for future exploration included:
• HLLV (150–250 mT),
• Nuclear Thermal Propulsion (NTP),
• Nuclear electric surface power,"

There's the key on what we don't' know much about, but guessed.

Offline Chris Bergin

RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #49 on: 12/31/2005 05:30 PM »
While the Moon shot is obviously the big thing about this document, this is something that needs looking into, as it's a big for both those that are interested in a return to the Moon (as most of us are) and even those who are of the "we've done the Moon before" types.

Offline Chris Bergin

RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #50 on: 12/31/2005 06:31 PM »
I've thrown a summary on line on the news site (which gets a rediculous amount of uniques impressions than the forum does - for reasons beyond me).

So yes, it's simple. Yes, it's short. Yes, it doesn't cover as much as I might have chosen to, but it gets the message out as I really want as many people to see this as possible. I'm sure we'll do more, especially on the nuclear issue and other specific elements, but for now it's a simply article which isn't going to confuse anyone - and sends them to get their own report to read through.

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/content/?id=4164

Offline vt_hokie

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #51 on: 12/31/2005 06:39 PM »
Quote
Chris Bergin - 31/12/2005  8:57 AM

Welcome VT - ironically, we have an X-33 article (of such) which will be of interest to you. Going on in the next 24 hours or so.

Thanks!  I look forward to reading it!

Offline Colby

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #52 on: 01/01/2006 03:09 AM »

I just came across something in the ESAS that surprises me. From all of the discussion I have read thus far on this forum, I came to the conclusion that the SSME is going to be difficult to modify to become startable at altitude. However, check out what I just found on page 406:

Altitude-Start SSME
A 1993 study (NAS8–39211) and a 2004 Marshall Space Flight Center (MSFC) study exam-
ined the Block 2 engines for altitude-start. Both studies determined altitude-start will require
minor changes, but is considered straightforward. Specialized testing for certification to the
environment will be required. Development and certification of altitude-start for the Block
2 RS–25d engine is needed. The cost estimate is based on SSME historical actuals, vendor
quotes, and estimates. It also assumes the Shuttle Program continues to pay the fixed cost of
infrastructure through Shuttle termination.

Also, I found this on page 407:

Minimal Changes for Expendable Applications SSME
In addition to the minor changes required to altitude-start the SSME (RS–25d), it is desir-
able to make some engine improvements to lower the unit cost and improve producibility.
Suggested improvements include low-pressure turbomachinery simplifications; a new
controller; a Hot Isostatic Press (HIP) bonded Main Combustion Chamber (MCC); flex hoses
to replace flex joints on four ducts; and simplified nozzle processing. In addition, process
changes would be incorporated to eliminate inspections for reuse and accommodate obsoles-
cence of the controller. Development and certification of these minimal changes is designated
SSME RS–25e. The estimate is based on SSME historical actuals, vendor quotes, and esti-
mates.

It seems to me NASA has a different opinion then most of us!

Colby

Offline lmike

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #53 on: 01/01/2006 03:22 AM »
AFAIK, the contention was whether the SSME could be made *multi re-startable* , not *startable once at an altitude*.  The current SSME fuel turbopumps require a certain pressure in the fuel lines for the spin-up, AFAIK.  And as such, ullage repressuraziation or the turbopump re-design would be required for a multi-start SSME.  Now that that seems off the table, a simplification just to enable a single at altitude start seems to be advocated.

Offline Colby

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #54 on: 01/01/2006 03:23 AM »
I also just discovered for the first time that the 4-segment RSRM used on STS and, eventually, the CLV, uses PBAN as propellant.  However, the 5-segment RSRM to be used on the CaLV will use HTPB. Was this well-known before? Something tells me that is going to require new facilities at ATK in Utah, or is it? Perhaps by the time the CaLV comes online the CLV first stage will also be using HTPB instead. From an environmental standpoint, I believe HTPB is a cleaner solution, although I'm sure that isn't one of the largest concerns right now!
Colby

Offline Colby

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #55 on: 01/01/2006 03:29 AM »

Quote
lmike - 31/12/2005 11:22 PM AFIAK, the contention was whether the SSME could be made *multi re-startable* , not *startable once at an attitude*. The current SSME fuel turbopumps require a certain pressure in the fuel lines for the spin-up, AFAIK. And as such, ullage repressuraziation or the turbopump re-design would be required for a multi-start SSME. Now that that seems off the table, a simplification just to enable a single at altitude start seems to be advocated.

Ahh, now that makes more sense! I do have another question, though. Was the launch ascent profile of the CLV initially going to include multiple burns by the second stage? Like you said, right now it appears the plan is to just use a single burn, which would make sense. Thanks for helping me get that clear!

Colby

Offline lmike

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #56 on: 01/01/2006 04:14 AM »
Quote
Colby - 31/12/2005  10:29 PM
...Was the launch ascent profile of the CLV initially going to include multiple burns by the second stage? ...

I believe so.  Contemplated, perhaps.  Such as orbital plane changes, for example.  They (NASA) have been sizing up a few engine alternatives for a while, and the J2 reproductions would offer a more flexible mission profile but are a bit off on the schedule/cost (see the SDHLV where they kick in)  IMHO.

Offline Colby

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #57 on: 01/01/2006 04:28 AM »
You're right, the J-2S+ would add to mission flexibility.  Does the EDS make only three burns (achieving orbit, circularization, TLI), or does it also do orbital plane change maneuvers as well? 
Colby

Offline Hotol

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #58 on: 01/01/2006 09:06 AM »
Quote
Colby - 31/12/2005  10:23 PM

I also just discovered for the first time that the 4-segment RSRM used on STS and, eventually, the CLV, uses PBAN as propellant.  However, the 5-segment RSRM to be used on the CaLV will use HTPB. Was this well-known before? Something tells me that is going to require new facilities at ATK in Utah, or is it? Perhaps by the time the CaLV comes online the CLV first stage will also be using HTPB instead. From an environmental standpoint, I believe HTPB is a cleaner solution, although I'm sure that isn't one of the largest concerns right now!

That is well spotted. I hadn't seen that, but I did notice the rare image of an SRB being filled with it's cement type mix of propellant in a very strange looking facility.

Offline FransonUK

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #59 on: 01/01/2006 05:44 PM »
Sorry if this was answered but from the new graphic on the first document and the text related, it appears Nuclear Thermal is the option taken for the transport to Mars. I know it doesn't state it as such, but seen as it says chemical is not an option, is this pretty much a done deal for Mars?
Don't ya wish your spaceship was hot like me

Offline Jamie Young

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #60 on: 01/01/2006 07:27 PM »
Quote
FransonUK - 1/1/2006  12:44 PM

Sorry if this was answered but from the new graphic on the first document and the text related, it appears Nuclear Thermal is the option taken for the transport to Mars. I know it doesn't state it as such, but seen as it says chemical is not an option, is this pretty much a done deal for Mars?

It appears to be the primary option. I suppose it's dependant on testing.

Offline Super George

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #61 on: 01/01/2006 11:07 PM »
Yes, but I read the testing as a timeline that means they are going for that option. I don't see anything else that is another option, unless I've missed it?

Offline Jamie Young

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #62 on: 01/02/2006 06:45 PM »
I think anything to do with Nuclear and Mars transit needs to go here now:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=1139&start=31&posts=40

So let me ask about the SHAB. How would this be taken to the Moon with the current vehicle set for the Moon transits?

Offline kraisee

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #63 on: 01/02/2006 07:32 PM »
Quote
Colby - 31/12/2005  11:23 PM

I also just discovered for the first time that the 4-segment RSRM used on STS and, eventually, the CLV, uses PBAN as propellant.  However, the 5-segment RSRM to be used on the CaLV will use HTPB. Was this well-known before? Something tells me that is going to require new facilities at ATK in Utah, or is it? Perhaps by the time the CaLV comes online the CLV first stage will also be using HTPB instead. From an environmental standpoint, I believe HTPB is a cleaner solution, although I'm sure that isn't one of the largest concerns right now!

ATK's proper name for the larger boosters is "Five Segment Boosters" or FSB's   They have already been test-fired four times, and all the FSB's have used HTPB from the get-go.   Right back to 1998 when the FSB was being proposed to NASA for use to improve payload on the Shuttle, it was designed to use HTPB.

I extrapolate from there that the Utah plant seems already able to handle that.

The 5-segment HTPB variant offers significantly more power, a slightly longer burn time and an improved pollution output (still nasty stuff though!), so its been chosen for the unmanned Heavy Lifter.

But the PBAN 4-segment RSRM was chosen for the CLV because it is already fully man-rated and flight-proven on a large number of manned flights.   This makes it  FAR cheaper to simply "leave well alone" and "don't fix wot ain't broke" and just fly that exact same booster ASAP.

I'm sure that ATK & NASA will probably aim long-term (10 years+) to replace the 4-seg PBAN with the 5-seg HTPB booster on the CLV, but doing it this way first allows NASA to get operational flights the (to quote ATK) "safest, simplest and soonest" way possible, not to mention the cheapest too.   Then there are no financial or schedule pressures on getting the FSB's man-rated for use later.

Ross.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth -- the rest of us will go to the stars"
-Robert A. Heinlein

Offline psloss

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #64 on: 01/02/2006 08:25 PM »
Quote
kraisee - 2/1/2006  3:32 PM

ATK's proper name for the larger boosters is "Five Segment Boosters" or FSB's   They have already been test-fired four times, and all the FSB's have used HTPB from the get-go.   Right back to 1998 when the FSB was being proposed to NASA for use to improve payload on the Shuttle, it was designed to use HTPB.
Hi Ross,

Were those all full scale firings?  The only one I recall reading about/seeing was the one in late 2003...

Thanks,

Philip Sloss

Offline Stowbridge

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #65 on: 01/02/2006 11:44 PM »
Quote
psloss - 2/1/2006  3:25 PM

Quote
kraisee - 2/1/2006  3:32 PM

ATK's proper name for the larger boosters is "Five Segment Boosters" or FSB's   They have already been test-fired four times, and all the FSB's have used HTPB from the get-go.   Right back to 1998 when the FSB was being proposed to NASA for use to improve payload on the Shuttle, it was designed to use HTPB.
Hi Ross,

Were those all full scale firings?  The only one I recall reading about/seeing was the one in late 2003...

Thanks,

Philip Sloss

FSB has had four various scaled and programmed tests. Such as gimbal ascent profile and power variance of propellant flow.
Veteran space reporter.

Offline Avron

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #66 on: 01/03/2006 02:34 AM »
Quote
kraisee - 2/1/2006  3:32 PM

I'm sure that ATK & NASA will probably aim long-term (10 years+) to replace the 4-seg PBAN with the 5-seg HTPB booster on the CLV, but doing it this way first allows NASA to get operational flights the (to quote ATK) "safest, simplest and soonest" way possible, not to mention the cheapest too.   Then there are no financial or schedule pressures on getting the FSB's man-rated for use later.

Ross.

Ross

Any idea what it will take to get the FSB man-rated?

Offline psloss

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #67 on: 01/03/2006 06:02 AM »
Quote
Stowbridge - 2/1/2006  7:44 PM

FSB has had four various scaled and programmed tests. Such as gimbal ascent profile and power variance of propellant flow.
How many other full scale firings were there besides the engineering motor that was fired in 2003?

Thanks,

Philip Sloss

Offline CuddlyRocket

RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #68 on: 01/03/2006 12:16 PM »
Phew, what a read! (I hasten to add that I was at my computerless parents over Christmas - in case you were wondering what took me so long. :))

The encouraging things I took from it was how it all hangs together, and how it has scope for future developments.

Offline Chris SF

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #69 on: 01/03/2006 02:19 PM »
Heh. I was with my grandmother over Christmas and showed her my laptop. She didn't understand it, but needless to say I got to hear about World War II again, only this time she got to hear about NASA in return :)

Who writes these reports? They are very well presented. I wonder if NASA use a team, or it's actual NASA people?

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Offline RedSky

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #71 on: 01/04/2006 04:57 AM »
The ESAS threads have gotten so long so fast, I don't know if this has been already discussed.  Section 10 deals with the testing program, which describes each "Mission" leading up to the lunar landing.  It seems to be saying that for the Lunar missions (test flights in lunar orbit and the crewed landing), that the EDS will perform BOTH the Trans Lunar Injection burn AND the Lunar Orbit Insertion burn.  I thought that the EDS stage was jetted shortly after the TLI, and that the LSAM was doing the LOI burn.    See, for example,  in Section 10,  page 665 under Mission Profile.  It says "EDS performs lunar orbit injection burn for LSAM/CEV and is jettisoned".   Did something change?  All the animations and illustrations I've seen to date have the CEV/LSAM entering Lunar Orbit without the EDS.

Offline AndyMc

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #72 on: 01/04/2006 11:06 AM »
Great Find! The draft report also has something similar on page 697 - (part 10)

Constellation Mission 4 - the first lunar manned lunar landing will only be sending two astronauts to the surface while 2 wait in lunar orbit, which make sense for what is a test flight. But what I find more interesting from what you have found out is that we have an EDS in lunar orbit, available to transfer mined LUNOX and/or Hydrogen/Oxygen from the lunar south pole between lunar orbit and L1/L2 for those future missions to Near Earth Objects, or even Mars. Great Stuff!


Online nacnud

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #73 on: 01/04/2006 12:15 PM »
So you end up with the possiblity of the EDS and the Accent LSAM in luna orbit, interesting.

Offline AndyMc

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #74 on: 01/04/2006 12:46 PM »
Page 658 also suggests that the EDS may have solar panels:

EDS
• Demonstrate structural integrity and verify loads and dynamic characteristics during
propulsion system burns and validate mode models with solar power system deployed  
(if used).
• Demonstrate multiple restarts with CEV and validate control models by performing  
attitude control as integrated stack.
• Conduct burns after 14-day cold soak and verify propellant management and storage
during extended on-orbit operations.
• Conduct burn to depletion to verify shutdown characteristics.

**** • Verify overall vehicle performance and thermal predictions and operation of all EDS
subsystems including solar panel deployment and operation (if used) supporting  
certification for crewed use (Flight 1).

• Demonstrate flight operations needed for conduct of EDS mission.

All this suggest that the EDS has to perform a LEO circularisation burn, TLI Burn and LOI burn.  Can this be right?


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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #75 on: 01/04/2006 01:30 PM »
In section 6 of the report the EDS is described in detail, in that section it states for a 1.5 launch ie a CLV/CEV plus CaLV/LSAM the EDS is used for TLI, see page 445. I can't find a mention of using the EDS for LOI anything other than a split mission.

There seems to be an inconsitance between sections 6 and 10 of the final report. I susspect that it is section 10 that is wrong.

Offline CuddlyRocket

RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #76 on: 01/05/2006 11:28 AM »
In the 'standard' 1.5 mission, the function of the EDS is to provide the impulse to get the CEV/LSAM onto a path to the Moon. The LSAM engine provides the braking impulse to enable the latter combination to enter Lunar Orbit.

But the plan also contemplates a cargo-only version of the LSAM. In these circumstances there would be no CEV. The LSAM could take more cargo down to the lunar surface if it itself did not have to provide thrust to brake into lunar orbit (and therefore can start the descent with full fuel tanks). It may be possible, with no longer having to take the mass of the CEV, to leave the LSAM attached to the EDS all the way to the Moon and have the latter do the braking?

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #77 on: 01/05/2006 12:31 PM »
Quote
CuddlyRocket - 5/1/2006  6:28 AM

In the 'standard' 1.5 mission, the function of the EDS is to provide the impulse to get the CEV/LSAM onto a path to the Moon. The LSAM engine provides the braking impulse to enable the latter combination to enter Lunar Orbit.

But the plan also contemplates a cargo-only version of the LSAM. In these circumstances there would be no CEV. The LSAM could take more cargo down to the lunar surface if it itself did not have to provide thrust to brake into lunar orbit (and therefore can start the descent with full fuel tanks). It may be possible, with no longer having to take the mass of the CEV, to leave the LSAM attached to the EDS all the way to the Moon and have the latter do the braking?

Sounds reasonable :) It'll be interesting to see how the plan develops over the next few years. I'm sure there is a lot more to this plan (like there was with Apollo X future missiions) than we are currently being told.

I know re-useadility has got itself a dirty name, what with the shuttle failing to live up to expectations, but I think every effort should be made to get more use out of the spacecraft modules that actually acheive orbit, after the first few test missions at least. Thats why I like the idea of re-using the EDS. Also some consideration should be given to re-using the CEVs Service module. If the umbilical between the CM and SM was a plug-in type and not the Apollo type where the connections were cut by a blade on seperation then perhaps with just enough fuel remaining it could be re-orbited after performing the de-orbit burn for the CEV CM. Just like the current plans for the Russian Klipper - http://www.russianspaceweb.com After re-orbit you have a useful tug. With enough of these Service Modules in orbit they could be docked to a mainfold and become part of an orbital fuel depot, each module being a stand alone unit suplying methane and LOX, which could be launched by cheaper commercial operators.

Don't Throw it Away - Re-cycle it :)


Offline Doug Stanley

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #78 on: 01/13/2006 06:39 PM »
Thanks for all of the comments on this thread.  Chris has put together another thread in response to my discovering this site for you to provide me with your summary comments (good and bad) on the ESAS report and architecture.  I will try to respond to as many as I can this week-end (see below)...

Doug Stanley

Doug Stanley - 12/1/2006 11:29 PM

Yes, I am THAT Doug Stanley...I just stumbled across this forum and you all seem very well informed and reasonable. Many of you have read our ESAS Report. What do you think of it and the architecture (good and bad)?


A very warm welcome to the site!

Given this thread is splitting in several directions, I've set up a specific thread on your question to save you trawling through many an unrelated post.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=1258&start=1

Offline publiusr

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #79 on: 01/26/2006 10:25 PM »
What could I do to get a pro-HLLV movement going. The Alt.space frauds and the rocket racer types can't fly anything but toys--but every time I pick up Space News that old hack Tumlinson fills up the op-eds.

Is there anyway you can get Griffin to see if he can have half the missile defense budget for two years for a Joint AF/NASA HLLV contract to let. After all ground based boost phase Missile Defense only works if your ABM is in the very country firing the ICBMs to begin with.

We are going to spend 200 billion on JSF--more on Iraq, but we can't get an HLLV?

To me, Heavy Lift must be the focus of NASA--with priority over even the Stick and CEV. I am afraid that if we don't get SDLV HLLV Magnum/Longfellow flying now--we never will. CEV will replace shuttle--but only to tool around ISS, with some anti-NASA President shutting down Michold or something like what Kerry would have done.  

Griffin is the closest thing we have had to a Soviet Chief Designer, for which I am thankful. I just wish he was a little more ruthless like Glushko.

I am very worried that we will never have 100 ton to LEO capability unless we act NOW.

Offline publiusr

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #80 on: 01/27/2006 08:59 PM »
With all the EELV pushers and the alt.spacers, HLLV needs as many friends and as loud a voice as possible.

Offline Avron

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #81 on: 01/27/2006 11:37 PM »
Quote
vanilla - 27/1/2006  1:04 AM

Quote
publiusr - 26/1/2006  5:25 PM

What could I do to get a pro-HLLV movement going. I am very worried that we will never have 100 ton to LEO capability unless we act NOW.
You know, I just never would have guessed from your last fifty posts that you were interested in heavy-lift.

Your interests seemed so eclectic.

It will all come in time... right now we need to get back up there...

I always wonder why EELV is pushed for man-related spaceflight, when they where not designed to be man-rated, and dont think its a simple patch to make them become man-rated (or is that Human-rated).. please correct me if I have made a wrong assumption.

Offline simonbp

RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #82 on: 01/28/2006 12:45 AM »
Quote
publiusr - 26/1/2006  5:25 PM
Is there anyway you can get Griffin to see if he can have half the missile defense budget for two years for a Joint AF/NASA HLLV contract to let. After all ground based boost phase Missile Defense only works if your ABM is in the very country firing the ICBMs to begin with.

I might point out that US Missile Command (who controls such things) is based at Redstone Arsenal, so in such a case, the funds would literally move from one end of Redstone/Marshall to the other...

Simon ;)

Offline Jim

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #83 on: 02/03/2006 07:46 PM »
Quote
Avron - 27/1/2006  6:37 PM

I always wonder why EELV is pushed for man-related spaceflight, when they where not designed to be man-rated, and dont think its a simple patch to make them become man-rated (or is that Human-rated).. please correct me if I have made a wrong assumption.

The production lines exist much like the early 60's and It would have been easier than the orginal Atlas and Titan II.  But also you need legitimate Human-rating requirements, not emotion based one, such as 1.4 factor of safety vs 1.25

Offline publiusr

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #84 on: 02/10/2006 09:23 PM »
The Stick is more rugged and can fly depressed trajectory. EELV might impart greater g loads in some abort profiles. I hear 25-27 g. EELVs are sat launchers, and should be kept that way.

Offline Jim

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #85 on: 02/11/2006 04:40 AM »
they or derivatives could be a CLV just as easy as the stick.  Lockheed had some good concepts, which would have been cheaper to develop and operate

Offline STS Tony

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #86 on: 02/13/2006 12:49 AM »
Quote
Jim - 3/2/2006  2:46 PM

Quote
Avron - 27/1/2006  6:37 PM

I always wonder why EELV is pushed for man-related spaceflight, when they where not designed to be man-rated, and dont think its a simple patch to make them become man-rated (or is that Human-rated).. please correct me if I have made a wrong assumption.

The production lines exist much like the early 60's and It would have been easier than the orginal Atlas and Titan II.  But also you need legitimate Human-rating requirements, not emotion based one, such as 1.4 factor of safety vs 1.25

That's interesting. I would have thought it would have suffered like the Shuttle orbiter lines at Palmdale, but if they are still there, then using them makes a lot of sense and allows for some costs reduction.

Offline Jim

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #87 on: 02/13/2006 01:48 AM »
Quote
STS Tony - 12/2/2006  7:49 PM

Quote
Jim - 3/2/2006  2:46 PM

Quote
Avron - 27/1/2006  6:37 PM

I always wonder why EELV is pushed for man-related spaceflight, when they where not designed to be man-rated, and dont think its a simple patch to make them become man-rated (or is that Human-rated).. please correct me if I have made a wrong assumption.

The production lines exist much like the early 60's and It would have been easier than the orginal Atlas and Titan II.  But also you need legitimate Human-rating requirements, not emotion based one, such as 1.4 factor of safety vs 1.25

That's interesting. I would have thought it would have suffered like the Shuttle orbiter lines at Palmdale, but if they are still there, then using them makes a lot of sense and allows for some costs reduction.

I was referring to that  the EELV (Delta IV and Atlas V) production lines  online making rockets.  It not lke have to design and set out production for a new rocket.

Offline simonbp

RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #88 on: 02/13/2006 12:12 PM »
And with the stick, you only have to design half of a new vehicle. In fact, because, according to ESAS, the EELV's would require a new upper stage as well to support the CEV and would also have to have lots of small redesigns on the lower stages, the actual amount of engineering is probably similar for both...

Simon ;)

Offline publiusr

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #89 on: 02/17/2006 10:18 PM »
Quote
Avron - 27/1/2006  6:37 PM

Quote
vanilla - 27/1/2006  1:04 AM

Quote
publiusr - 26/1/2006  5:25 PM

What could I do to get a pro-HLLV movement going. I am very worried that we will never have 100 ton to LEO capability unless we act NOW.
You know, I just never would have guessed from your last fifty posts that you were interested in heavy-lift.

Your interests seemed so eclectic.

It will all come in time... right now we need to get back up there...

I always wonder why EELV is pushed for man-related spaceflight, when they where not designed to be man-rated, and dont think its a simple patch to make them become man-rated (or is that Human-rated).. please correct me if I have made a wrong assumption.

The Primes aren't making money on their EELV Albatross, so they want Griffin to wear it. The Pluto shot was one thing. A lunar landing or Europa landing is something else again.

Offline hancider

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #90 on: 02/17/2006 10:28 PM »
Hey guys just one little question here does anyone know where I could get a copy of the ESAS Report in Book form.  I have downloaded the pdf file but 758 pages is a lot to print out does anybody know a place that is selling it like this if anyone could help I would appreciate it.

Offline mkirk

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RE: *FINAL* NASA ESAS Report Now Online
« Reply #91 on: 02/18/2006 01:13 AM »
Quote
hancider - 17/2/2006  5:28 PM

Hey guys just one little question here does anyone know where I could get a copy of the ESAS Report in Book form.  I have downloaded the pdf file but 758 pages is a lot to print out does anybody know a place that is selling it like this if anyone could help I would appreciate it.

Usually hard copies can be purchased from the government printing office (GPO).  Their websites are not user friendly so you may have to do some clicking to find out how to order.

Mark
Mark Kirkman

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