Author Topic: EMdrive Developments working in visible and infrared light regime.  (Read 82294 times)

Offline Kyodanarn

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Instead of pursuing that further I focused instead on creating predominantly 3d-printable designs so that high-schools and other amateurs can begin to delve into the world of micro-gram-precision analysis.

We tried interferometers, teeter-totter balances, bouncing lasers across rooms, and just about any other method you can think of to make these types of measurements many years ago in the old Emdrive forums.

For simplicity, ease of use, while also producing quality data, there is not really a better system than a torsional pendulum with laser displacement sensor.

Perhaps you can use a program like Fiji to plot the video recordings to a chart like we did in the following links.  The fringe pattern change is different than plotting the movement of a laser dot, but this method could be modified to work.

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39772.msg1544217#msg1544217

Thanks to Croppa for providing a tutorial:  https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39772.msg1543029#msg1543029

This method was tedious as it required a lot of work for each data run.  With a laser displacement sensor and a decent ADC, tests can be run one after another quickly and the results exported to excel with two clicks.

This is the company that made the ADC I use:  https://www.dataq.com/

Thank you so much for sharing. It's very helpful to me. Very complicated topic. I have only seen such complex topics and explanations in our philosophy course at university. By the way, if you have difficulties in writing philosophical writing you can contact me or on the website https://writingbros.com/essay-examples/philosophy/, where you can read high-quality examples of essays on this topic, from ancient times to the present day.
« Last Edit: 08/26/2020 01:42 pm by Kyodanarn »

Offline Monomorphic

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Newest video from McCulloch.  At time 28:45, he shows the first image I have seen publicly of TU Dresden's IR optical cavity used in their QI experiments. 




Offline ramimahdi

Pretty interesting, but leaves more question than it answers.

McCulloch needs a separate grant to make better animation explaining the mechanics of how some waves fail to exist while other succeed. And what happens to the ones that failed to exist.
Also, how does inertia in deceleration time work (momentum) ? how does the radiation unfolds ?

is the radaion relative and only visible to the accelerating object ?
If so, that experiment of electrons emitting light at metal tip is no proof

Offline crow_kraehe

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It's not entirely clear to me how momentum conservation works with this theory, or even energy conservation for that matter.
Particularly with the example of the "rotating acceleration core" with a shield material in front of it. In the limit as friction goes
to zero, the spinning wheel would not require any input power in order to continue rotating, and so the drive would just
experience Unruh radiation and therefore provided thrust for eternity. If anyone here has more in depth knowledge of
the theory could they say if the Unruh waves might somehow carry off the energy of the wheel while simultaneously imparting it to the thruster as a whole? I know that this would be equivalent to taking energy from the thruster's rest frame and
somehow handing it over to the kinetic energy observed by a bystander, but something tells me that this was forbidden in physics, to teleport energy between frames of reference.
« Last Edit: 08/26/2020 04:12 am by crow_kraehe »

Offline meberbs

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It's not entirely clear to me how momentum conservation works with this theory, or even energy conservation for that matter.
Particularly with the example of the "rotating acceleration core" with a shield material in front of it. In the limit as friction goes
to zero, the spinning wheel would not require any input power in order to continue rotating, and so the drive would just
experience Unruh radiation and therefore provided thrust for eternity. If anyone here has more in depth knowledge of
the theory could they say if the Unruh waves might somehow carry off the energy of the wheel while simultaneously imparting it to the thruster as a whole? I know that this would be equivalent to taking energy from the thruster's rest frame and
somehow handing it over to the kinetic energy observed by a bystander, but something tells me that this was forbidden in physics, to teleport energy between frames of reference.
Momentum conservation does not work in his theory, in another thread on this site (since locked), he actually responded to my question about this. He referenced a paper that addressed the energy question, but not momentum conservation. It attempted to do so by tying in entropy. I worked out the math in an example, and  it did not actually work as a conservation law, which makes sense because entropy is not a conserved quantity, it can both stay the same or increase.

The end of your post where you question passing energy between reference frames is correct. When calculating a conservation law, all calculations must be done in the same frame. Mixing frames just gets wrong answers. If energy or momentum is transferred between 2 objects, both the before and after energy and momentum of both objects all must be calculated in a single frame.

Offline Mark7777777

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It's not entirely clear to me how momentum conservation works with this theory, or even energy conservation for that matter.
Particularly with the example of the "rotating acceleration core" with a shield material in front of it. In the limit as friction goes
to zero, the spinning wheel would not require any input power in order to continue rotating, and so the drive would just
experience Unruh radiation and therefore provided thrust for eternity. If anyone here has more in depth knowledge of
the theory could they say if the Unruh waves might somehow carry off the energy of the wheel while simultaneously imparting it to the thruster as a whole? I know that this would be equivalent to taking energy from the thruster's rest frame and
somehow handing it over to the kinetic energy observed by a bystander, but something tells me that this was forbidden in physics, to teleport energy between frames of reference.
Momentum conservation does not work in his theory, in another thread on this site (since locked), he actually responded to my question about this. He referenced a paper that addressed the energy question, but not momentum conservation. It attempted to do so by tying in entropy. I worked out the math in an example, and  it did not actually work as a conservation law, which makes sense because entropy is not a conserved quantity, it can both stay the same or increase.

The end of your post where you question passing energy between reference frames is correct. When calculating a conservation law, all calculations must be done in the same frame. Mixing frames just gets wrong answers. If energy or momentum is transferred between 2 objects, both the before and after energy and momentum of both objects all must be calculated in a single frame.

And I think the locked thread mentioned was this one:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=48497.0

Offline cvbn

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Pretty interesting, but leaves more question than it answers.

McCulloch needs a separate grant to make better animation explaining the mechanics of how some waves fail to exist while other succeed. And what happens to the ones that failed to exist.
Also, how does inertia in deceleration time work (momentum) ? how does the radiation unfolds ?

is the radaion relative and only visible to the accelerating object ?
If so, that experiment of electrons emitting light at metal tip is no proof

https://twitter.com/memcculloch/status/1298659852273819669
https://twitter.com/memcculloch/status/1298661072241659904

Offline cvbn

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It's not entirely clear to me how momentum conservation works with this theory, or even energy conservation for that matter.
Particularly with the example of the "rotating acceleration core" with a shield material in front of it. In the limit as friction goes
to zero, the spinning wheel would not require any input power in order to continue rotating, and so the drive would just
experience Unruh radiation and therefore provided thrust for eternity. If anyone here has more in depth knowledge of
the theory could they say if the Unruh waves might somehow carry off the energy of the wheel while simultaneously imparting it to the thruster as a whole? I know that this would be equivalent to taking energy from the thruster's rest frame and
somehow handing it over to the kinetic energy observed by a bystander, but something tells me that this was forbidden in physics, to teleport energy between frames of reference.

https://twitter.com/memcculloch/status/1298663338000429056

Offline Mark7777777

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Please forgive me if this has already been mentioned here but has anyone built the device mentioned in https://ayuba.fr/pdf/taylor2017.pdf (i.e. with super-mirrors, Nd:YVO₄ and other parts mentioned)?

Offline Mark7777777

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In Monomorphic's and other laser cavity experiments, is there a detrimental/negative effect if the laser beam keeps crossing into/overwriting itself? That is passing through itself again after bouncing off a wall.

Offline cvbn

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Please forgive me if this has already been mentioned here but has anyone built the device mentioned in https://ayuba.fr/pdf/taylor2017.pdf (i.e. with super-mirrors, Nd:YVO₄ and other parts mentioned)?

This is what McCulloch said about that:
https://twitter.com/memcculloch/status/1292474742629371913

Offline Alex_O

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https://physicsfromtheedge.blogspot.com/2020/06/pushing-off-vacuum.html
Quote
Pushing off the vacuum
..
So, what's new in this paper? Well, it turns out that you don't need the laser in the cavity or any energy input, if the cavity is small enough (about 129 nm). Then the zero point field itself is made inhomogeneous by the cavity's asymmetry and is strong enough to push the cavity, which is pretty light. Build a array of these nano-cavities and it should push itself, in the same way a boulder will roll down a hill. The hill in this case is the quantum vacuum, so the boulder may in fact be able to roll up a physical hill by 'rolling down' the one in the quantum vacuum. The applications are new launch systems and a way to get to the nearest stars in a human lifetime. A craft with propellant-less propulsion makes such a trip possible within a few years. A bold prediction indeed, but at least it is testable.

Was this question discussed? (I didn't find it by searching). This is a great idea from Mike McCulloch that a 129 nm cavity can simply create a force on its own, without consuming energy, that balances gravity. It looks like you, using a simple technology, have built an ordinary brick, in which there are many nanocavities of a special shape, and this brick will levitate in the gravitational field or may, by itself, fly away to the stars.

I would like to understand the possible physics of this idea, and looked at Mike's sources of inspiration. Look please?

Offline Alex_O

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Taking into account the comment of the moderator

Content of which I am unsure if the poster comprehends what they are discussing. Repeatedly.

(in deleted posts, I had a brainstorming session (with myself) because I wanted to understand why Monomorph's design doesn't work, where the design contains a mistake), I would like to find an answer on the physics of Mike's idea. I think I came up with a good question for Mike's physics.

1. Mike pointed out that Heisenberg's uncertainty principle can be useful for space flights. If a photon (and this is a virtual photon, right?) Moves inside an asymmetric cavity, then the geometry of the cavity - (design factor) is a simple tool for controlling the position of the photon, so as to create the correct anisotropy of the photon momentum distribution in the asymmetric cavity.

Such anisotropy in the most magical way (this is not magic, but a turn of speech) will change the balance of forces of radiation pressure in the cavity, and the cavity will move in space without ejection of the propellant).

2. There are many similarities between Mike's 129 nm nanocavity and the Emdrive microwave cavity. The emdrive cavity also has a manifestation of quantum mechanics. And if Mike's nano cavity can create pure force, it can work in Emdrive as well.

3. Earlier, we saw articles describing experiments where the geometry of a macroscopic cavity effectively influenced the physical phenomena in the cavity at the level of quantum mechanics.

4. Levitation in a gravitational field. I just want to ask - can a simple rigid body levitate on its own, without spending energy? Is this possible in principle? My answer is yes - and that means Mike's idea is physically possible. This seems to be the key question for Mike's cavity.

5. Let's compare Mike's nanocavity with Emdrive again. If you create a special microrelief on the surface of the end walls of the polished Emdrive cavity, on a special (nanometer ??) scale, you will get a complete analogue of Mike's nanocavity.

6. In order for the Emdrive macroscopic resonator to be able to somehow correctly organize the physics of quantum phenomena in itself, obviously, a correct design is needed. The Emdrive cavity design must be optimized to demonstrate quantum effects.

7. The design of the Monomorphic optical stand contains errors, since there is no optimization in the design at the level of quantum mechanics (a simple idea is, for example, cooling the mirrors to a low temperature or something else (polarization ?, focusing Unruh radiation?)
...
« Last Edit: 09/02/2020 07:49 pm by Alex_O »

Offline Alex_O

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Taking into account the comment of the moderator

Content of which I am unsure if the poster comprehends what they are discussing. Repeatedly.

(in deleted posts, I had a brainstorming session (with myself) because I wanted to understand why Monomorph's design doesn't work, where the design contains a mistake), I would like to find an answer on the physics of Mike's idea. I think I came up with a good question for Mike's physics.

1. Mike pointed out that Heisenberg's uncertainty principle can be useful for space flights. If a photon (and this is a virtual photon, right?) Moves inside an asymmetric cavity, then the geometry of the cavity - (design factor) is a simple tool for controlling the position of the photon, so as to create the correct anisotropy of the photon momentum distribution in the asymmetric cavity.

Such anisotropy in the most magical way (this is not magic, but a turn of speech) will change the balance of forces of radiation pressure in the cavity, and the cavity will move in space without ejection of the propellant).

Question:
1. What is a photon in Mike's cavity?
2. Mike said that the photon in the cavity is moving, jumping. How is that? Can I look at simulations like that?
3. How to look at the momentum of photons in a cavity? It's like a variable that changes like that at a high frequency, right? At what frequency? If you make a video - what should be the frame rate of a video camera?
4. If you take only one piece of a cavity, place it in zero gravity and mentally make the walls of the cavity very thin and possibly partially transparent for photons - what will happen? Vacuum fluctuations will create a kind of Brownian motion of the cavity itself? Is this an example of a simple Brownian particle? She will have a track, a flight path - how it will be
 seen on the graph - like a fluttering flight of a butterfly?
5. Is there radiation pressure in the cavity, in principle? If this is a virtual photon, what is the frequency? What fashion (TM, TE)?
6. All other virtual photons of the universe will act on the nanocavity from the outside, right? What does it look like? This will be the pulse force, what is its frequency?
7. Is a single cavity of small size (nanometers) an object for quantum mechanics? Does it already have its own wave properties? This can be captured with laser tweezers, right?
8. To test Mike's idea, what can you do?
Create a droplet of glass in Mike's design, spray a thin layer of a mirror on the droplet and illuminate it with a laser, in a laser tweezers? Some of the photons of the laser will pass through the walls of the mirror halfway through and these photons will have interesting problems (as Mike said) with the distribution of the pulse. Some of the photons will then be able to leave the cavity and what will the observer see? Will it be something unusual?
Instead of a volumetric cavity, you can test flat, two-dimensional resonators (analogue of strip lines in microwave) and this is just a thin film with diffraction gratings (with a different design). Maybe someone has already experienced it?

Offline trm14

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https://physicsfromtheedge.blogspot.com/2020/06/pushing-off-vacuum.html
Quote
Pushing off the vacuum
..
So, what's new in this paper? Well, it turns out that you don't need the laser in the cavity or any energy input, if the cavity is small enough (about 129 nm). Then the zero point field itself is made inhomogeneous by the cavity's asymmetry and is strong enough to push the cavity, which is pretty light. Build a array of these nano-cavities and it should push itself, in the same way a boulder will roll down a hill. The hill in this case is the quantum vacuum, so the boulder may in fact be able to roll up a physical hill by 'rolling down' the one in the quantum vacuum. The applications are new launch systems and a way to get to the nearest stars in a human lifetime. A craft with propellant-less propulsion makes such a trip possible within a few years. A bold prediction indeed, but at least it is testable.

Was this question discussed? (I didn't find it by searching). This is a great idea from Mike McCulloch that a 129 nm cavity can simply create a force on its own, without consuming energy, that balances gravity. It looks like you, using a simple technology, have built an ordinary brick, in which there are many nanocavities of a special shape, and this brick will levitate in the gravitational field or may, by itself, fly away to the stars.

I would like to understand the possible physics of this idea, and looked at Mike's sources of inspiration. Look please?

That paper is unusually strange. Even the first equation is problematic, to put it nicely, since as a zero rest mass particle photon can't be localised, so the Heisenberg uncertainty principle doesn't really apply to it (at least in as simple form as is claimed in the paper).  The second and third equations are true if the uncertainties are defined suitably, though it's not at all clear what the relevance of that is for this paper. It's definitely not always an equality if the uncertainty is understood (as is usual) to mean variance.

The real mystery is the fourth equation. With no apparent justification, an equality is drawn between two different delta p's. Somehow, the change of momentum delta p is considered to be equal to uncertainty in momentum delta p. The rest follows from simple manipulations.

Offline Alex_O

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https://physicsfromtheedge.blogspot.com/2020/06/pushing-off-vacuum.html
Quote
Pushing off the vacuum
..
So, what's new in this paper? Well, it turns out that you don't need the laser in the cavity or any energy input, if the cavity is small enough (about 129 nm). Then the zero point field itself is made inhomogeneous by the cavity's asymmetry and is strong enough to push the cavity, which is pretty light. Build a array of these nano-cavities and it should push itself, in the same way a boulder will roll down a hill. The hill in this case is the quantum vacuum, so the boulder may in fact be able to roll up a physical hill by 'rolling down' the one in the quantum vacuum. The applications are new launch systems and a way to get to the nearest stars in a human lifetime. A craft with propellant-less propulsion makes such a trip possible within a few years. A bold prediction indeed, but at least it is testable.

Was this question discussed? (I didn't find it by searching). This is a great idea from Mike McCulloch that a 129 nm cavity can simply create a force on its own, without consuming energy, that balances gravity. It looks like you, using a simple technology, have built an ordinary brick, in which there are many nanocavities of a special shape, and this brick will levitate in the gravitational field or may, by itself, fly away to the stars.

I would like to understand the possible physics of this idea, and looked at Mike's sources of inspiration. Look please?

That paper is unusually strange. Even the first equation is problematic, to put it nicely, since as a zero rest mass particle photon can't be localised, so the Heisenberg uncertainty principle doesn't really apply to it (at least in as simple form as is claimed in the paper).  The second and third equations are true if the uncertainties are defined suitably, though it's not at all clear what the relevance of that is for this paper. It's definitely not always an equality if the uncertainty is understood (as is usual) to mean variance.

The real mystery is the fourth equation. With no apparent justification, an equality is drawn between two different delta p's. Somehow, the change of momentum delta p is considered to be equal to uncertainty in momentum delta p. The rest follows from simple manipulations.

I am trying to understand design and physics. Suppose a photon somehow gets into Mike's nanocavity and will jump there and an external observer wants to measure the photon momentum in this nanocavity.

What will he learn? That the momentum of a photon is variable while the photon is bouncing in the resonator - its momentum changes (by itself) within quantum mechanics, and that the geometry and design of the cavity strongly influences the change in momentum.

It looks like a solar sail. There are photons (from the Sun) that fall into the trap of the sail (here a sail is an analogue of a nanocavity) and change their momentum and a force acts on the sail.

But if there is no Sun, but there are strange virtual particles, photons that are born / disappear in a nanocavity? These are not solar photons, they are the photons of the universe !.

Then Mike's nanocavity is just a sail for the virtual particles / photons of the universe.
« Last Edit: 09/04/2020 10:39 am by Alex_O »

Offline cvbn

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That paper is unusually strange. Even the first equation is problematic, to put it nicely, since as a zero rest mass particle photon can't be localised, so the Heisenberg uncertainty principle doesn't really apply to it (at least in as simple form as is claimed in the paper).  The second and third equations are true if the uncertainties are defined suitably, though it's not at all clear what the relevance of that is for this paper. It's definitely not always an equality if the uncertainty is understood (as is usual) to mean variance.

The real mystery is the fourth equation. With no apparent justification, an equality is drawn between two different delta p's. Somehow, the change of momentum delta p is considered to be equal to uncertainty in momentum delta p. The rest follows from simple manipulations.

https://twitter.com/memcculloch/status/1302003550575382528

Offline Star One

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Cross posting this as this part of the article is relevant to this thread as well

I feel sorry for him, if that wasn’t what science is all about, having to expend all that time and effort on something he knows going into doesn’t work.

Quote
Jose Luis Perez Diaz in Madrid, Spain, and Martin Tajmar in Dresden, Germany, are carrying out the experimental side of the project. Tajmar confirms that he plans to publish two papers in February 2021, one on the “normal” microwave EmDrives and the other on the laser-based EmDrives. On the experimental side, Tajmar is still working on eliminating every possible source of error.

“We are still improving our balances and testing continues, “ says Tajmar. “In particular we are working on further reduction of magnetic field interactions with the environment, which was the major side-effect that we discovered in previous testing.”

When asked whether he might have an alternative explanation for the apparent thrust seen in previous tests, Tajmar only says to “Wait for the papers...”

https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/rockets/a33917439/emdrive-wont-die/



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