Author Topic: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2  (Read 1097273 times)

Offline ccdengr

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1280 on: 04/06/2020 03:23 pm »
Does Skype do 911?
In theory, sort of, maybe?  https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/skypeforbusiness/certification/services-e911

I don't think regular Skype does 911 (on a phone, the app just dials 911 via the cell system), and the architecture for supporting 911 on VoIP in general is confusing to me.

Offline envy887

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1281 on: 04/06/2020 04:25 pm »
Q4 2020 has always been the target for Starlink, as far as I can tell. If you have any evidence that SpaceX actually planned an earlier service date, please link it.

//SpaceX is confident it can start offering broadband service in the United States via its Starlink constellation in mid-2020, the company’s president and chief operating officer Gwynne Shotwell said Oct. 22, 2019.
“We’ll continue to upgrade the network until mid to late next year,” said Shotwell.
//https://spacenews.com/spacex-plans-to-start-offering-starlink-broadband-services-in-2020/

I can't find an actual quote of what Gwynne said (Erwin is paraphrasing), but based on other SpaceX statements her confidence in the "mid" appears to be with regard to the "6 to 8 launches" and not with regard to consumer offering, which will happen after the 6 or 8 launches. SpaceX has consistently said "after 6 launches" and "in 2020" in other materials.

Offline OTV Booster

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1282 on: 04/06/2020 05:04 pm »
I just googled “911 maps”.

It looks like there is no overall mapping scheme or I missed it. A first take is that it’s done at a state/county/city level with no overall standardized gis system.

It looks harder than I thought.

Phil
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Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1283 on: 04/06/2020 05:10 pm »
I just googled “911 maps”.

It looks like there is no overall mapping scheme or I missed it. A first take is that it’s done at a state/county/city level with no overall standardized gis system.

It looks harder than I thought.

Phil
But many, many companies have solved this problem. It's not really worth discussing, IMHO, compared to the other, harder issues here.
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Offline DreamyPickle

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1284 on: 04/06/2020 05:15 pm »
I also noticed SpaceX's filing shows beginning of service in US is end of 2020, I don't know if this is a change from previous filings, but it certainly doesn't help with the narrative. I think Elon mentioned last year that they needed 6(?) launches to start minimal service in the US, they should be able to do that soon, so what is the delay? Gateways? Terminals? Software?

I wonder if it's possible for them to start service in a limited region (for example Boca Chica) first? Something like a beta test, it would help a lot with their case in front of FCC.

They did not yet reach 6 launches and orbit raising seems to take many weeks or months. And 6-8 was for coverage of northern latitudes. Boca Chica is at the southern tip of Texas so it's harder to cover than (for example) Washington State.

Of all the criticisms of Starlink being a few months late is among the weakest: ground-based providers would have to spend a lot of time on construction anyway.

Offline ccdengr

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1285 on: 04/06/2020 06:01 pm »
But many, many companies have solved [E911]. It's not really worth discussing, IMHO...
Perhaps not, but it's a nice type example of how things turn out to be harder in practice than they might seem to a casual observer.

For example, I have a femtocell in my house.  It knows exactly where it is because it has a GPS receiver, but the way location services work on my phone is a confusing hodgepodge of poorly-working hacks.  For months my cell phone would be convinced that I instantly traveled about 100 miles away from my house in the middle of the night.  Who knows why?

BTW, as a more relevant example, if I dial 911 on an Iridium phone, "it is automatically routed to Iridium’s selected 911 emergency call center provider, Intrado. After determining the nature of the emergency, Intrado will route the call to the nearest Public Safety Answering Point."  One wonders how that solution would scale for a larger network.
« Last Edit: 04/06/2020 06:02 pm by ccdengr »

Offline Nomadd

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1286 on: 04/06/2020 06:55 pm »
But many, many companies have solved [E911]. It's not really worth discussing, IMHO...
Perhaps not, but it's a nice type example of how things turn out to be harder in practice than they might seem to a casual observer.

For example, I have a femtocell in my house.  It knows exactly where it is because it has a GPS receiver, but the way location services work on my phone is a confusing hodgepodge of poorly-working hacks.  For months my cell phone would be convinced that I instantly traveled about 100 miles away from my house in the middle of the night.  Who knows why?

BTW, as a more relevant example, if I dial 911 on an Iridium phone, "it is automatically routed to Iridium’s selected 911 emergency call center provider, Intrado. After determining the nature of the emergency, Intrado will route the call to the nearest Public Safety Answering Point."  One wonders how that solution would scale for a larger network.

A Femtocell in your house would supply the location of the Femtocell, not the handset. It's already in the system, because the first thing a Femto cell does when you turn it on is supply it's own GPS coordinates so the phone company can be sure you're in their allowed coverage area.
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Offline Tommyboy

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1287 on: 04/06/2020 07:09 pm »
But many, many companies have solved [E911]. It's not really worth discussing, IMHO...
Perhaps not, but it's a nice type example of how things turn out to be harder in practice than they might seem to a casual observer.

For example, I have a femtocell in my house.  It knows exactly where it is because it has a GPS receiver, but the way location services work on my phone is a confusing hodgepodge of poorly-working hacks.  For months my cell phone would be convinced that I instantly traveled about 100 miles away from my house in the middle of the night.  Who knows why?

BTW, as a more relevant example, if I dial 911 on an Iridium phone, "it is automatically routed to Iridium’s selected 911 emergency call center provider, Intrado. After determining the nature of the emergency, Intrado will route the call to the nearest Public Safety Answering Point."  One wonders how that solution would scale for a larger network.

A Femtocell in your house would supply the location of the Femtocell, not the handset. It's already in the system, because the first thing a Femto cell does when you turn it on is supply it's own GPS coordinates so the phone company can be sure you're in their allowed coverage area.
I wouldn't be surprised if the main purpose of the GPS receiver isn't about its location, but about the current time and clock signal (a GPS receiver with 10kHz output combined with a PLL can be highly accurate). As I understand cellular networks, they are heavily dependent on time-division multiplexing.

Offline Hummy

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1288 on: 04/06/2020 07:34 pm »
Regarding the FCC subsidy, it does look like that Starlink is not offering service and haven't demonstrated high speed/low latency is a very common talking point among its competitors. If you read the filings, pretty much every filing from its competitors mentioned something like this, so it's not just Tim Farrar, he's just parroting what terrestrial fiber companies are saying.

I also noticed SpaceX's filing shows beginning of service in US is end of 2020, I don't know if this is a change from previous filings, but it certainly doesn't help with the narrative. I think Elon mentioned last year that they needed 6(?) launches to start minimal service in the US, they should be able to do that soon, so what is the delay? Gateways? Terminals? Software?

I wonder if it's possible for them to start service in a limited region (for example Boca Chica) first? Something like a beta test, it would help a lot with their case in front of FCC.

They did not yet reach 6 launches and orbit raising seems to take many weeks or months. And 6-8 was for coverage of northern latitudes. Boca Chica is at the southern tip of Texas so it's harder to cover than (for example) Washington State.

Of all the criticisms of Starlink being a few months late is among the weakest: ground-based providers would have to spend a lot of time on construction anyway.

In the context of the FCC subsidy the criticism is not about the delay but the secrecy and vague promises. If they want to participate in a public project they need to be more open. Providing a media article about a single test with a non-Starlink terminal with no other subscribers using the network as evidence that technology is ready to serve hundreds of thousands of users opens them for a valid criticism. They've already had an experimental license for 256 terminals for a long time. Revealing the test results would go a long way to shut the critics up.
« Last Edit: 04/06/2020 07:35 pm by Hummy »

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1289 on: 04/06/2020 07:51 pm »
Revealing the test results would go a long way to shut the critics up.

I don't think it would do any such thing.  You're going to shut Tim up?  Ha!

And SpaceX has been as open as they need to be.

Offline Hummy

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1290 on: 04/06/2020 08:04 pm »
Revealing the test results would go a long way to shut the critics up.

I don't think it would do any such thing.  You're going to shut Tim up?  Ha!


Not Tim. His ramblings are irrelevant. I and su27k are talking about critics in the proceeding. The rules of RDOF are not finalized yet. The critics want to convince the FCC to change the rules to disadvantage SpaceX.
« Last Edit: 04/06/2020 08:05 pm by Hummy »

Offline wannamoonbase

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1291 on: 04/06/2020 08:12 pm »
Revealing the test results would go a long way to shut the critics up.

I don't think it would do any such thing.  You're going to shut Tim up?  Ha!

And SpaceX has been as open as they need to be.

I'd say they have shared far more then they need too.
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Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1292 on: 04/06/2020 08:47 pm »
I also noticed SpaceX's filing shows beginning of service in US is end of 2020, I don't know if this is a change from previous filings, but it certainly doesn't help with the narrative. I think Elon mentioned last year that they needed 6(?) launches to start minimal service in the US, they should be able to do that soon, so what is the delay? Gateways? Terminals? Software?

I wonder if it's possible for them to start service in a limited region (for example Boca Chica) first? Something like a beta test, it would help a lot with their case in front of FCC.

They did not yet reach 6 launches and orbit raising seems to take many weeks or months. And 6-8 was for coverage of northern latitudes. Boca Chica is at the southern tip of Texas so it's harder to cover than (for example) Washington State.

Of all the criticisms of Starlink being a few months late is among the weakest: ground-based providers would have to spend a lot of time on construction anyway.
The whole argument is weak.

Yeah, the terminals are still being worked, but regular broadband is not well suited for rural. LEO constellations are, offsetting the terminal risk.

And LEO constellations are super risky, capital-wise, as we can clearly see with history and OneWeb and so we should not artificially disadvantage them in any kind of contract like this. Excluding Starlink because it's "new" (even though the initial operating capacity is already mostly built out) would be seriously playing favorites.

Let SpaceX compete with everyone else fairly. It's not hard. Unless you've got an ax to grind against SpaceX or Elon Musk, then life overall is pretty hard.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1293 on: 04/06/2020 09:40 pm »
Not Tim. His ramblings are irrelevant. I and su27k are talking about critics in the proceeding. The rules of RDOF are not finalized yet. The critics want to convince the FCC to change the rules to disadvantage SpaceX.

There is a panoply of layered criticism that does not seem particularly persuasive.  The FCC has been seeing SpaceX up close for a few years now and it looks like they perceive Starlink as a potential winner.  They have had ample opportunity to knee cap SpaceX, but have declined to do so thus far.

The best and really only thing that SpaceX can do now to show that Starlink is a horse worth betting on is to keep pushing sats uphill.  But the critics will still carp.  That's their job, after all.
« Last Edit: 04/06/2020 09:54 pm by RedLineTrain »

Offline Eka

Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1294 on: 04/07/2020 01:55 am »
I just googled “911 maps”.

It looks like there is no overall mapping scheme or I missed it. A first take is that it’s done at a state/county/city level with no overall standardized gis system.

It looks harder than I thought.

Phil
Government TIGER map data has all the administrative boundaries in it. Which 911 service to route to can be determined using the coordinates of those administrative boundaries. A mapping of administrative areas to 911 service would need to be found. I'd expect it exists, but might not be in a convenient form.
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Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1295 on: 04/07/2020 01:40 pm »
Not Tim. His ramblings are irrelevant. I and su27k are talking about critics in the proceeding. The rules of RDOF are not finalized yet. The critics want to convince the FCC to change the rules to disadvantage SpaceX.

There is a panoply of layered criticism that does not seem particularly persuasive.  The FCC has been seeing SpaceX up close for a few years now and it looks like they perceive Starlink as a potential winner.  They have had ample opportunity to knee cap SpaceX, but have declined to do so thus far.

The best and really only thing that SpaceX can do now to show that Starlink is a horse worth betting on is to keep pushing sats uphill.  But the critics will still carp.  That's their job, after all.
Right. It’s worth noting the critics on FCC filings are often/usually competitors so it’s literally their job to try to find arguments as to why SpaceX’s system is deficient and shouldn’t be qualified. Don’t hold it against the critics, but also don’t think that they’re neutral in any way.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline gongora

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1296 on: 04/07/2020 04:11 pm »
Not Tim. His ramblings are irrelevant. I and su27k are talking about critics in the proceeding. The rules of RDOF are not finalized yet. The critics want to convince the FCC to change the rules to disadvantage SpaceX.

There is a panoply of layered criticism that does not seem particularly persuasive.  The FCC has been seeing SpaceX up close for a few years now and it looks like they perceive Starlink as a potential winner.  They have had ample opportunity to knee cap SpaceX, but have declined to do so thus far.

The best and really only thing that SpaceX can do now to show that Starlink is a horse worth betting on is to keep pushing sats uphill.  But the critics will still carp.  That's their job, after all.
Right. It’s worth noting the critics on FCC filings are often/usually competitors so it’s literally their job to try to find arguments as to why SpaceX’s system is deficient and shouldn’t be qualified. Don’t hold it against the critics, but also don’t think that they’re neutral in any way.

Yes, and everyone should also remember that SpaceX makes exactly the same kinds of filings against their competitors, usually with arguments just as dubious as the ones being leveled at SpaceX now.  It's just the way the game is played.

Offline ccdengr

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1297 on: 04/07/2020 06:49 pm »
With regard to Starlink and RDOF, I'll remind everyone that back in 2018 SpaceX convinced the FCC to not lump them in with GEO satellites due to lower latency, but after doing so, decided they weren't going to bid for Connect America anyway.  From https://spacenews.com/spacex-wont-seek-u-s-rural-broadband-subsidies-for-starlink-constellation/

Quote
SpaceX believes that it is more effective to leverage advanced technology and smart private sector infrastructure investment to reach America’s unserved and underserved population, rather than seek Government subsidization for this effort,” SpaceX’s Vice President of Satellite Government Affairs, Patricia Cooper, wrote in a May 8 letter to FCC Chairman Ajit Pai.

Cooper thanked the FCC for revising the Connect America auction rules, but said systems like Starlink won’t need government funding to connect rural and other remote areas.

If they bid for RDOF, presumably something changed their minds.

Offline gongora

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1298 on: 04/07/2020 07:11 pm »
If they bid for RDOF, presumably something changed their minds.

I would think schedule certainty is part of it.  That was a year before they launched the v0.9 sats.  Now they have an actual deployment plan.

Offline OTV Booster

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1299 on: 04/07/2020 07:15 pm »
I just googled “911 maps”.

It looks like there is no overall mapping scheme or I missed it. A first take is that it’s done at a state/county/city level with no overall standardized gis system.

It looks harder than I thought.

Phil
Government TIGER map data has all the administrative boundaries in it. Which 911 service to route to can be determined using the coordinates of those administrative boundaries. A mapping of administrative areas to 911 service would need to be found. I'd expect it exists, but might not be in a convenient form.

That’s the process I'd expect as long as the info can be found from one source.

If TIGER has the data in a database and it’s in consistent form, it’s just database grunge to make it work. Especially if they publish updates in advance with an implementation date.

Phil


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