Author Topic: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2  (Read 1273228 times)

Offline mwfair

Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #660 on: 11/21/2019 08:00 pm »
All US operators are investing heavily in 5G deployment as we speak.
OT. 
edit: removed snark
« Last Edit: 11/21/2019 08:00 pm by mwfair »
Mike Fair

Offline AC in NC

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #661 on: 11/21/2019 08:36 pm »
Carve-over from Texas Prototype Discussion

Starlink (and other constellations) will have to fight against 5G and well-established conventional network providers with deep pockets and strong political support. They are not going to go down without a fight.
LEO constellations have an edge when it comes to niche markets like airline and naval broadband and developing countries, but that's not where the Mars colony kind of money is.

As a rural Texas resident with ridiculously expensive choices for home internet, I disagree. There are no conventional network providers at all among my choices. A local telephone coop 5mbs @$90/mo, a rural wireless broadband service offering 3mbs down-1mbs up @$80/mo, and cell phone data (which is sketchy, but what I use now).

Heck, I've got solid service at regular 100 MByte/s download for $65 and will jump on Starlink to kick the tires as soon as I can simply because of what it supports.   

But as with your situation, there are plenty of folks even in moderately populated areas here that don't have great options.  My parents within 20 mins of a major city have weak DSL and 1-bar 4G.  There is a lot of untapped rural market potential.

Online envy887

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #662 on: 11/21/2019 08:45 pm »
Carve-over from Texas Prototype Discussion

Starlink (and other constellations) will have to fight against 5G and well-established conventional network providers with deep pockets and strong political support. They are not going to go down without a fight.
LEO constellations have an edge when it comes to niche markets like airline and naval broadband and developing countries, but that's not where the Mars colony kind of money is.

As a rural Texas resident with ridiculously expensive choices for home internet, I disagree. There are no conventional network providers at all among my choices. A local telephone coop 5mbs @$90/mo, a rural wireless broadband service offering 3mbs down-1mbs up @$80/mo, and cell phone data (which is sketchy, but what I use now).

Heck, I've got solid service at regular 100 MByte/s download for $65 and will jump on Starlink to kick the tires as soon as I can simply because of what it supports.   

But as with your situation, there are plenty of folks even in moderately populated areas here that don't have great options.  My parents within 20 mins of a major city have weak DSL and 1-bar 4G.  There is a lot of untapped rural market potential.

Same to a tee...

Offline GregTheGrumpy

Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #663 on: 11/21/2019 09:16 pm »
Starlink (and other constellations) will have to fight against 5G and well-established conventional network providers with deep pockets and strong political support. They are not going to go down without a fight.
LEO constellations have an edge when it comes to niche markets like airline and naval broadband and developing countries, but that's not where the Mars colony kind of money is.

As a rural Texas resident with ridiculously expensive choices for home internet, I disagree. There are no conventional network providers at all among my choices. A local telephone coop 5mbs @$90/mo, a rural wireless broadband service offering 3mbs down-1mbs up @$80/mo, and cell phone data (which is sketchy, but what I use now).

There will be plenty of domestic users of Starkink, supporting OCCUPY MARS with every key stroke. If nothing else, it will force the status quo to become competitive price-wise for their urban users. As well as provide new startup providers a source of service to distribute at a lower rate. It has been a long time coming, but SpaceX will level the playing field in this department and I suspect adoption will generate significant income for Starship development.

When I read the inner quote, I said to myself,  "South Texas must be a developing area."  Some of my customers can't even get cell coverage and must depend on satellite service.  It stinks and I, for one, am eagerly waiting until I can buy (and recommend) Starlink service.  Perhaps as early as next year.  I am quite positive there are other rural areas across the USA and other places that just don't have much in the way of options.

Offline niwax

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #664 on: 11/21/2019 09:48 pm »
Carve-over from Texas Prototype Discussion

Starlink (and other constellations) will have to fight against 5G and well-established conventional network providers with deep pockets and strong political support. They are not going to go down without a fight.
LEO constellations have an edge when it comes to niche markets like airline and naval broadband and developing countries, but that's not where the Mars colony kind of money is.

As a rural Texas resident with ridiculously expensive choices for home internet, I disagree. There are no conventional network providers at all among my choices. A local telephone coop 5mbs @$90/mo, a rural wireless broadband service offering 3mbs down-1mbs up @$80/mo, and cell phone data (which is sketchy, but what I use now).

Heck, I've got solid service at regular 100 MByte/s download for $65 and will jump on Starlink to kick the tires as soon as I can simply because of what it supports.   

But as with your situation, there are plenty of folks even in moderately populated areas here that don't have great options.  My parents within 20 mins of a major city have weak DSL and 1-bar 4G.  There is a lot of untapped rural market potential.

Ultimately, a 4G antenna has to run off the same backbone as your internet connection. No broadband, no 4G. In those cases, Starlink actually empowers 4G providers instead of competing with them. I have toyed with the idea of a fully integrated cell tower and Starlink receiver for a while. If you manage to pack both in a box, maybe even with a small battery and solar panels, expanding a 4G network becomes dropping off $5000 boxes every mile or so.

The idea could carry even further than the still-bad cell networks in the developed world. Want to connect a million people in rural Africa to the internet? Drop a handful of boxes in every village you can find. Need to connect a camp site or research station? Well, guess what...
Which booster has the most soot? SpaceX booster launch history! (discussion)

Offline KSHavre

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #665 on: 11/21/2019 09:57 pm »
Starlink (and other constellations) will have to fight against 5G and well-established conventional network providers with deep pockets and strong political support. They are not going to go down without a fight.
LEO constellations have an edge when it comes to niche markets like airline and naval broadband and developing countries, but that's not where the Mars colony kind of money is.

As a rural Texas resident with ridiculously expensive choices for home internet, I disagree. There are no conventional network providers at all among my choices. A local telephone coop 5mbs @$90/mo, a rural wireless broadband service offering 3mbs down-1mbs up @$80/mo, and cell phone data (which is sketchy, but what I use now).

There will be plenty of domestic users of Starkink, supporting OCCUPY MARS with every key stroke. If nothing else, it will force the status quo to become competitive price-wise for their urban users. As well as provide new startup providers a source of service to distribute at a lower rate. It has been a long time coming, but SpaceX will level the playing field in this department and I suspect adoption will generate significant income for Starship development.

When I read the inner quote, I said to myself,  "South Texas must be a developing area."  Some of my customers can't even get cell coverage and must depend on satellite service.  It stinks and I, for one, am eagerly waiting until I can buy (and recommend) Starlink service.  Perhaps as early as next year.  I am quite positive there are other rural areas across the USA and other places that just don't have much in the way of options.

Before the mods get a chance to move this discussion to the Starlink thread... Here is the data that helps support the argument that there is a market for affordable Broadband in the US:

https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2018/12/rural-and-lower-income-counties-lag-nation-internet-subscription.html


Online Mandella

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #666 on: 11/21/2019 10:24 pm »
Starlink (and other constellations) will have to fight against 5G and well-established conventional network providers with deep pockets and strong political support. They are not going to go down without a fight.
LEO constellations have an edge when it comes to niche markets like airline and naval broadband and developing countries, but that's not where the Mars colony kind of money is.

As a rural Texas resident with ridiculously expensive choices for home internet, I disagree. There are no conventional network providers at all among my choices. A local telephone coop 5mbs @$90/mo, a rural wireless broadband service offering 3mbs down-1mbs up @$80/mo, and cell phone data (which is sketchy, but what I use now).

There will be plenty of domestic users of Starkink, supporting OCCUPY MARS with every key stroke. If nothing else, it will force the status quo to become competitive price-wise for their urban users. As well as provide new startup providers a source of service to distribute at a lower rate. It has been a long time coming, but SpaceX will level the playing field in this department and I suspect adoption will generate significant income for Starship development.

When I read the inner quote, I said to myself,  "South Texas must be a developing area."  Some of my customers can't even get cell coverage and must depend on satellite service.  It stinks and I, for one, am eagerly waiting until I can buy (and recommend) Starlink service.  Perhaps as early as next year.  I am quite positive there are other rural areas across the USA and other places that just don't have much in the way of options.

/Waves hand.

I know we're being off topic, but I think it can be important to let folks know just how underserved a lot of America is for broadband. Here in west Georgia, not really even that deep in the sticks, my options are satellite and putting up a mast with a Yagi antenna with booster just to get 3G.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #667 on: 11/21/2019 11:37 pm »
Now that SpaceX has discovered that the United States can be fully covered by Starlink before equatorial regions, they plan to focus on covering the US as soon as possible.

My question is what happens when they subsequently cover the equatorial regions, won't that mean superfluous coverage of the United States?

Offline mark_m

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #668 on: 11/21/2019 11:48 pm »
Now that SpaceX has discovered that the United States can be fully covered by Starlink before equatorial regions, they plan to focus on covering the US as soon as possible.

My question is what happens when they subsequently cover the equatorial regions, won't that mean superfluous coverage of the United States?

IANARS, but I would imagine it would take fewer satellites to use lower inclination orbits fill out full equatorial coverage, which wouldn't add to the general CONUS coverage. (Although it seems reasonable that they wouldn't use any inclinations much lower than one which results from a due-east launch.)

But this is theoretical; isn't the planned configuration known?

Offline Danderman

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #669 on: 11/21/2019 11:53 pm »
Since SpaceX doesn't have any launch sites near the Equator, and their current sites are in the US, I am not sure if they have any good options

Online gongora

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #670 on: 11/21/2019 11:59 pm »
More sats over the U.S. and other highly populated parts of the world means more bandwidth available.  Their initial plan was to completely overlay the initial shell with another one at nearly identical inclination to get more bandwidth.

Offline AC in NC

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #671 on: 11/21/2019 11:59 pm »
[1]Now that SpaceX has discovered that the United States can be fully covered by Starlink before equatorial regions,
[2]they plan to focus on covering the US as soon as possible.
[3]My question is what happens when they subsequently cover the equatorial regions,
[4]won't that mean superfluous coverage of the United States?

1 - The premise of this framing is not in evidence.
3 - As I read the filings, there is nothing that amounts to "subsequent coverage"
4 - No.  The capacity for the high-density market latitudes will satisfy equatorial regions for the foreseeable future.

Since SpaceX doesn't have any launch sites near the Equator, and their current sites are in the US, I am not sure if they have any good options

I don't think they need any.  Not seeing any inclinations below 30 degrees.  I could be missing something.
« Last Edit: 11/22/2019 12:02 am by AC in NC »

Offline Asteroza

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #672 on: 11/22/2019 12:42 am »

These things matter. There are hard costs and limited funds. People shouldn't forget that.

Regarding financing for Starship, one word...

                                                                                   Starlink

If that progresses as planned, SpaceX will not have issues with financing going forward and optics will be less of an issue.
Starlink (and other constellations) will have to fight against 5G and well-established conventional network providers with deep pockets and strong political support. They are not going to go down without a fight.
LEO constellations have an edge when it comes to niche markets like airline and naval broadband and developing countries, but that's not where the Mars colony kind of money is.

Uh, I hate to break the bad news, but 5G rollouts are going to be long and painful, and run the risk of bankrupting companies. The density of cells necessary to achieve high speeds is no laughing matter, the costs of acquiring new tower space is going to be insane. Anybody who bought up the old PCS cellular stations (which were also high density) has a head start. Most carriers don't have the capital tables to actually support a full rollout.

Now, conventional fiber optic broadband penetration and associated wifi may change the situation for terrestrial telecomms. There has been serious talk again about federated wifi access, but the sticking point is payment schemes. There's been some blockchain noises to handle the payment schemes, but I can't speak on their merits. Past examples being Fon, and currently Express WiFi by Facebook. ISP's are also bundling wifi with their leased modem routers, such that they can piggyback their own federated wifi on customer equipment (and get them to effectively cover the cost).

But that does nothing for people in deep suburban/exurb areas, especially on the go. Starlink won't do anything for mobile uses (maybe parked RV's being the exception), but as a backhaul alternative in rural cell sites to avoid the fiber optic outlay is an interesting tactic though. Also covers mobile cell sites used for high density events and emergency response.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #673 on: 11/22/2019 12:51 am »
[1]Now that SpaceX has discovered that the United States can be fully covered by Starlink before equatorial regions,
[2]they plan to focus on covering the US as soon as possible.
[3]My question is what happens when they subsequently cover the equatorial regions,
[4]won't that mean superfluous coverage of the United States?

1 - The premise of this framing is not in evidence.
3 - As I read the filings, there is nothing that amounts to "subsequent coverage"
4 - No.  The capacity for the high-density market latitudes will satisfy equatorial regions for the foreseeable future.

Since SpaceX doesn't have any launch sites near the Equator, and their current sites are in the US, I am not sure if they have any good options

I don't think they need any.  Not seeing any inclinations below 30 degrees.  I could be missing something.

Assuming an architecture where the US is continuously covered with equally spaced satellites, both within each plane, and between planes, the equatorial regions will not have continuous coverage.

In order to provide equatorial regions similar continuous coverage, satellites would have to be evenly spaced within planes and between planes. Such coverage would result in extra satellites at higher latitudes.

What I gather from earlier posts is that SpaceX considers this a feature not a bug, since the “extra” satellites could provide additional bandwidth. I am guessing that these extra satellites would operate at a different frequency, or better put, SpaceX would use multiple frequencies to avoid confusing the user terminals.

Offline AC in NC

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #674 on: 11/22/2019 01:03 am »
Assuming an architecture where the US is continuously covered with equally spaced satellites, both within each plane, and between planes, the equatorial regions will not have continuous coverage.

I don't think this is true.  Why do you think this?
« Last Edit: 11/22/2019 01:05 am by AC in NC »

Offline Danderman

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #675 on: 11/22/2019 01:29 am »
Assuming an architecture where the US is continuously covered with equally spaced satellites, both within each plane, and between planes, the equatorial regions will not have continuous coverage.

I don't think this is true.  Why do you think this?

Maybe because if there were any gaps between the ground tracks of the satellites, service would be interrupted.

Offline AC in NC

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #676 on: 11/22/2019 01:36 am »
Assuming an architecture where the US is continuously covered with equally spaced satellites, both within each plane, and between planes, the equatorial regions will not have continuous coverage.
I don't think this is true.  Why do you think this?
Maybe because if there were any gaps between the ground tracks of the satellites, service would be interrupted.

A continuously covered US does not necessarily mean there will be ground track gaps at the equators.  I think you are leaving an integral premise of your concerns unstated.
« Last Edit: 11/22/2019 01:43 am by AC in NC »

Offline lamid

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #677 on: 11/22/2019 09:03 am »
Starlink SpaceX 20 planes with 20 satellites continuous coverage between 28-60 ° latitude,
altitude 550 km, inclination 53°.

coverage gaps:

Offline sferrin

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #678 on: 11/22/2019 09:38 am »

These things matter. There are hard costs and limited funds. People shouldn't forget that.

Regarding financing for Starship, one word...

                                                                                   Starlink

If that progresses as planned, SpaceX will not have issues with financing going forward and optics will be less of an issue.
Starlink (and other constellations) will have to fight against 5G and well-established conventional network providers with deep pockets and strong political support. They are not going to go down without a fight.
LEO constellations have an edge when it comes to niche markets like airline and naval broadband and developing countries, but that's not where the Mars colony kind of money is.

5G has a giant black eye (in the US anyway) due to the China/Huawei fiasco.

Exactly the opposite. U.S. carriers aren't using Huawei 5G.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/04/10/us-spat-with-huawei-explained/

"As U.S. officials have pressured allies not to use networking gear from Chinese technology giant Huawei over spying concerns, President Trump has urged American companies to “step up” and compete to provide the next generation of high-speed, low-lag wireless service known as 5G.

There’s just one problem: Barely any U.S. companies manufacture the technology’s most critical components.

The absence of a major U.S. alternative to foreign suppliers of 5G networking equipment underscores the growing dominance of Huawei, which has evolved into the world’s biggest supplier of telecom equipment, sparking fears within the Trump administration that a 5G network powered by Huawei’s wireless parts could endanger national security. And it throws into sharp relief the years-long retreat by U.S. firms from that market."


"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline AC in NC

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #679 on: 11/22/2019 02:44 pm »
Coverage gaps re:  Starlink SpaceX 20 planes with 20 satellites continuous coverage between 28-60 ° latitude,
altitude 550 km, inclination 53°.

Yes.

A constellation continuously covering CONUS can have equatorial coverage gaps.
A constellation continuously covering CONUS does not necessarily have equatorial coverage gaps.

The difference relates to Danderman's unstated premise.

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