Author Topic: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats  (Read 869779 times)

Offline Oli

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2467
  • Liked: 605
  • Likes Given: 60
Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #580 on: 12/18/2016 05:06 am »

Tunneling is essential for something like Hyperloop to work out.

Offline KelvinZero

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4286
  • Liked: 887
  • Likes Given: 201
Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #581 on: 12/18/2016 05:57 am »
Tunneling is essential for something like Hyperloop to work out.
I think you would put a hyperloop above ground. It would be cheaper and the key advantages to underground (radiation and robust sea-level pressure containment) are not issues.

Offline gospacex

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3024
  • Liked: 543
  • Likes Given: 604
Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #582 on: 12/18/2016 12:27 pm »
The inhabitants had to deal with unusable interior walls, narrow balconies and problematic natural lighting, which rendered the complex unappealing to the middle class population.

A classic case of architect failing to understand that people are in fact expected to live in the buildings he designs.

Who would've thought that people would need to install the usual rectangular cupboards, beds, sofas, shelves, bathtubs in their homes? That rectangular window panes are far easier to come by than pentagonal?

Offline Oli

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2467
  • Liked: 605
  • Likes Given: 60
Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #583 on: 12/18/2016 01:10 pm »
Tunneling is essential for something like Hyperloop to work out.
I think you would put a hyperloop above ground. It would be cheaper and the key advantages to underground (radiation and robust sea-level pressure containment) are not issues.

Passenger comfort at such high speeds dictates straight tracks and the tracks will connect city centers respectively densely populated areas. Both will lead to lots of tunneling. Which isn't too bad though with a vactrain because the tunnel diameter can be smaller than with normal trains.


Offline Robotbeat

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 39270
  • Minnesota
  • Liked: 25240
  • Likes Given: 12115
Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #584 on: 12/18/2016 01:19 pm »
The inhabitants had to deal with unusable interior walls, narrow balconies and problematic natural lighting, which rendered the complex unappealing to the middle class population.

A classic case of architect failing to understand that people are in fact expected to live in the buildings he designs.

Who would've thought that people would need to install the usual rectangular cupboards, beds, sofas, shelves, bathtubs in their homes? That rectangular window panes are far easier to come by than pentagonal?
Quite true. This is why domes work okay if very large but are terrible if they're small. The "edge effect" of trying to fit rectangular shapes inside a circular cross section (or the 3D analogues of each) becomes less problematic for large domes.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline nacnud

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2691
  • Liked: 981
  • Likes Given: 347
Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #585 on: 12/18/2016 01:20 pm »
Would you even need a tube as Mars atmosphere is only 0.6% the pressure of Earths.

Offline TripD

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 872
  • Peace
  • Liked: 851
  • Likes Given: 677
Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #586 on: 12/18/2016 04:18 pm »
Would you even need a tube as Mars atmosphere is only 0.6% the pressure of Earths.

The only upfront convenience I can see is that a tunnel would mitigate dust issues.  Otherwise, it is possible that Mars would offer less atmospheric pressure than the earthbound hyperloop tunnels will have.
« Last Edit: 12/18/2016 04:35 pm by TripD »

Offline meekGee

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14158
  • N. California
  • Liked: 14046
  • Likes Given: 1392
Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #587 on: 12/18/2016 07:45 pm »
Would you even need a tube as Mars atmosphere is only 0.6% the pressure of Earths.

The only upfront convenience I can see is that a tunnel would mitigate dust issues.  Otherwise, it is possible that Mars would offer less atmospheric pressure than the earthbound hyperloop tunnels will have.
The biggest advantage of underground is thermal stability....

But hey - it'll be a while before you need rapid mass transport between Martian cities, something that rovers can't do...



ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Offline KelvinZero

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4286
  • Liked: 887
  • Likes Given: 201
Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #588 on: 12/18/2016 07:53 pm »
Passenger comfort at such high speeds dictates straight tracks and the tracks will connect city centers respectively densely populated areas. Both will lead to lots of tunneling. Which isn't too bad though with a vactrain because the tunnel diameter can be smaller than with normal trains.
Even if you disagree with Musk, this is a spaceX forum and he has clearly stated industry underground and living on the surface. From context Im not clear he did not just mean parks, rather than actually sleeping there, but obviously this makes it reasonable to have the place where you dock the hyperloop to visit another city on the surface.

Besides, there would be an acceleration and deceleration phase. If you had a hyperloop to something hundreds of kilometers away and your city was primarily underground, very little of the loop would have to be underground. A tiny fraction compared to the mined out volume of the city itself.

Offline Oersted

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2897
  • Liked: 4098
  • Likes Given: 2773
Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #589 on: 12/18/2016 11:49 pm »
Tunneling is essential for something like Hyperloop to work out.
I think you would put a hyperloop above ground. It would be cheaper and the key advantages to underground (radiation and robust sea-level pressure containment) are not issues.

Musk is all about creating disruption in established markets and economies. His method is always to rethink things to bring down the cost of a  given product/service drastically. What if he has an idea that would bring down the cost of tunnelling to a tenth or a twentyfifth of the present costs? Cheap tunnelling looks very attractive in the many areas of the world where the surface is already overdeveloped. An L.A. to S.F. hyperloop buried the whole way would avoid a lot of expropriation and land use costs.

Offline Paul451

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3553
  • Australia
  • Liked: 2518
  • Likes Given: 2180
Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #590 on: 12/19/2016 12:50 am »
Would you even need a tube as Mars atmosphere is only 0.6% the pressure of Earths.
The only upfront convenience I can see is that a tunnel would mitigate dust issues.

Even then you only need a light-weight cover on an overland track. (Much much lighter than the lining for an excavated tunnel.)

But a hyperloop-type vehicle shouldn't experience dust issues. It doesn't ride on the "tracks" except for a short stretch at beginning and end (which can be easily maintained or covered). A thin layer of dust won't effect the levitation ability of the vehicle, and any over-pressure ground-effect system will (conveniently) blow away dust as the vehicle passes, so it won't accumulate. (Unlike on Earth, you can't get large movement of sand/dust in a single storm. The Martian atmosphere just physically doesn't have the carrying capacity.)

Offline meekGee

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14158
  • N. California
  • Liked: 14046
  • Likes Given: 1392
Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #591 on: 12/19/2016 04:27 pm »
I don't understand the proposal - are you taking about a tube-less hyperloop?  That's impossible....
ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Offline RonM

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3340
  • Atlanta, Georgia USA
  • Liked: 2231
  • Likes Given: 1584
Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #592 on: 12/19/2016 04:52 pm »
With the very low atmospheric pressure on Mars, hyperloop technology is not needed. Just build a maglev train, monorail, etc.

Tunneling is a very slow and difficult process. The machines are extremely large. First build on the surface, then when the base has the industrial capacity to build the main structure of the tunneling machine, send the harder to build parts from Earth.

Offline TripD

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 872
  • Peace
  • Liked: 851
  • Likes Given: 677
Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #593 on: 12/19/2016 06:11 pm »
I'd add that maintenance/emergency access would be easier on an outside track.  More so if the tunnel is the cause of the issue.

Edit:  some clarity needed.
« Last Edit: 12/19/2016 07:11 pm by TripD »

Offline lamontagne

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4266
  • Otterburn Park, Quebec,Canada
  • Liked: 3838
  • Likes Given: 716
Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #594 on: 12/19/2016 06:44 pm »
With the very low atmospheric pressure on Mars, hyperloop technology is not needed. Just build a maglev train, monorail, etc.

Tunneling is a very slow and difficult process. The machines are extremely large. First build on the surface, then when the base has the industrial capacity to build the main structure of the tunneling machine, send the harder to build parts from Earth.
I thought the ram compression of the Mars atmosphere might make for a nice little air cushion system? Hyperloop operates at 1 millibar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperloop
and Mars atmospheric pressure is 6 millibar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Mars

It might save construction costs on the un-accelerated parts of the tracks and be used for propulsion?  Don't really need to worry about noise on Mars.
Don't see any point in tunneling for a Mars hyperloop at least for a few centuries.  But if we have underground cave habitats, then perhaps underground stations as well.

If Mars lighting under a dome is insufficient to grow plants in an intensive way, and if dome constructions costs are too high, might we just make very large solar arrays and grow everything underground?  After all, agriculture is also an industrial process, in a way, so we would not be going against a Musk quote.  A true food production dome is probably not a very comfortable environment, as anyone who has visited a green house will tell you.  Too humid and too bright.
After all the least effective part of a greenhouse with electric lighting will be the photosynthesis.  We might use the power losses in the power system to heat the colony.  Does photosynthesis scale linearly with lighting levels?

Lots of questions still, before we can design the habitat....

Offline lamontagne

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4266
  • Otterburn Park, Quebec,Canada
  • Liked: 3838
  • Likes Given: 716
Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #595 on: 12/19/2016 06:58 pm »
We haven't talked much about getting about in the habitat, in particular once it reaches more than a few thousand people.  Will walking be the only option?  How about vacuum tube transportation systems for small to mid size items?  These are notoriously unreliable on Earth, but might make sense on Mars, where there is ample supply of near vacuum.

If we go for an hyperloop for long distance, and we base our designs on the capacity of SpaceX, can we expect anything else than self driving people movers for all the larger distance, than combine up into an hyperloop vehicle as per this Dubai concept?



Of course, exercise is good for you, perhaps in particular at 1/3g.  So people movers might be actively discouraged.

And what about air treatment?  Should this be centralized or distributed? And water?  Distributed seems safer, but usually large central plants are more efficient.

On the third hand, as the Moties would say, transportation is not really free, and youmight have a gain in promoting local usage.  Composting toilets, rather than our slightly mad water based system of today?


Offline Lumina

Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #596 on: 12/19/2016 08:43 pm »
(snip)
... But if we have underground cave habitats, then perhaps underground stations as well.

If Mars lighting under a dome is insufficient to grow plants in an intensive way, and if dome constructions costs are too high, might we just make very large solar arrays and grow everything underground?  After all, agriculture is also an industrial process, in a way, so we would not be going against a Musk quote.  A true food production dome is probably not a very comfortable environment, as anyone who has visited a green house will tell you.  Too humid and too bright.
After all the least effective part of a greenhouse with electric lighting will be the photosynthesis.  We might use the power losses in the power system to heat the colony.  Does photosynthesis scale linearly with lighting levels?

Lots of questions still, before we can design the habitat....

I agree with the insight about fields of solar panels and industrial "greenhouses" in caves and tunnels below. I think solar panels will be a better use of the surface than real greenhouses. Nuclear and solar, with fuel cell backup can share the power production responsibility. The LED-lit greenhouse caves with optimized wavelengths and optimized virtual day & night lengths etc. will then draw power from the grid. More efficient, more reliable and having flexibility with the sources & uses of power is always good for plan b's and plan c's.

If we expand the vision of caves under fields of solar panels to imagine what else is possible, I think that the imaginative use of multi-level landscapes will turn out to be important in the urban planning of amazing cities on Mars.

Landscapes filled with canyons, craters and mesas expose multiple horizontal and vertical surfaces. Multi-level landscapes make it easier to design an underground city that is not completely underground. Parts of caves can be exposed as domes on the south face of a crater wall, mesa or canyon, and parts of underground tunnels can be exposed and covered with geodesic structure & glass, mixing the indoor and outdoor experience as people move about the city. This way, people can spend most of a Sol in a fully underground zero radiation environment yet still have on-tap, frequent access to the exposed domes and exposed tunnels for eyeball contact with open vistas, the horizon, the great outdoors, the sun and wind, the dust devils, the human activity on the valley floor and the red or blue skies. I think the best uses of exposed domes will be public places for green parks, socializing and leisure, places of creative work, places of living (except sleeping) and the best uses of exposed tunnels would be to make walking or biking between points more interesting and uplifting. Caves and underground large tunnels would be best for industry, the radiation-safe portion of sleeping and living quarters, greenhouses and so forth.

Also, with multiple levels and a semi-underground city excavated in-between, things that should be above the city can be above it, such as the solar panel fields up top kept out of dust and shadow, or even landing pads, with easy vertical access down to the city, and things that should be below the city can be below, like the canyon floor that might be scoured for water- and mineral- bearing regolith, probably creating a regular local dust cloud in the process.

Finally, such landscapes also create natural protective divisions between areas, making it easier to zone nearby landing pads or nuclear power.
« Last Edit: 12/19/2016 08:50 pm by Lumina »

Offline RanulfC

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4595
  • Heus tu Omnis! Vigilate Hoc!
  • Liked: 900
  • Likes Given: 32
Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #597 on: 12/21/2016 09:07 pm »
On the third hand, as the Moties would say, transportation is not really free, and youmight have a gain in promoting local usage.

The correct terminology is "Gripping Hand" just FYI :)

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

Offline MickQ

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 868
  • Australia.
  • Liked: 191
  • Likes Given: 625
Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #598 on: 12/22/2016 07:41 am »
I envision a clear, one piece dome sited on top of a vertical, cylindrical shaft descending 5 or 6 levels down.  Each level has a terrace extending slightly further into the shaft than the one above until the lowest level is actually the shaft floor.  On the terraces are gardens, cafe, park and other common areas.  Radiating away from the shaft on each level are tunnels containing living and working areas, storage, utilities, medical, education etc.

The bigger the dome, the larger the terraces or the more numerous the levels.  Four horizontal tunnels per level spaced 90 degrees apart would be major thoroughfares with other areas/hallways branching off them.

Tunnels on level one would be at 12, 3, 6 & 9 o'clock.  Level two at 1, 4, 7 & 10 o'clock etc so that there is a vertical offset of 3 levels between the major spokes that would allow them to be joined by ramps for wheeled traffic at a suitable distance from the shaft.  Stairways and elevators could be put just about anywhere.

Smaller observation domes and airlocks would be at the far end of each spoke on level one.

How big a dome could that BFS carry ?

Offline envy887

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8144
  • Liked: 6801
  • Likes Given: 2965
Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #599 on: 12/22/2016 07:14 pm »
BFS as envisioned in the SpaceX video could not carry a dome larger than about 3 meters in diameter, limited by the cargo door size. Even with larger doors the 12m diameter is a pretty hard limit, so I doubt any domes will be transported in 1 piece.

I like the rest of your habitat ideas though. Would be cool to see a visual representation of it!

 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
0