Simple - go put telescopes on sidewalks and show space to them.
Quote from: Amos on 09/26/2021 06:01 pmSimple - go put telescopes on sidewalks and show space to them.Telescopes didn’t do it for me
Quote from: Jim on 09/26/2021 06:17 pmQuote from: Amos on 09/26/2021 06:01 pmSimple - go put telescopes on sidewalks and show space to them.Telescopes didn’t do it for meAs a long-time lurker I've come to seriously respect your expertise, Jim - Can I ask what did do it for you? I ask because I've spent a lot of time doing hands-on interpretive programs with telescopes, and never really had a participant who wasn't "into it".
Quote from: Amos on 09/26/2021 06:56 pmQuote from: Jim on 09/26/2021 06:17 pmQuote from: Amos on 09/26/2021 06:01 pmSimple - go put telescopes on sidewalks and show space to them.Telescopes didn’t do it for meAs a long-time lurker I've come to seriously respect your expertise, Jim - Can I ask what did do it for you? I ask because I've spent a lot of time doing hands-on interpretive programs with telescopes, and never really had a participant who wasn't "into it".Televised space missions in the 60’s
I'll tell you what killed it for me - the gap between Apollo and Shuttle. Despite an intense interest, I went into another industry for that reason. And the gap we're in right now (post Shuttle) happened at the same time in my kids' lives. And, no, commercial crew cycling to the ISS doesn't count. It's just a taxi service and just as exciting.So, have exciting things going on that involve people in space. Get rid of the damned gaps!
Quote from: Lee Jay on 09/27/2021 02:36 amI'll tell you what killed it for me - the gap between Apollo and Shuttle. Despite an intense interest, I went into another industry for that reason. And the gap we're in right now (post Shuttle) happened at the same time in my kids' lives. And, no, commercial crew cycling to the ISS doesn't count. It's just a taxi service and just as exciting.So, have exciting things going on that involve people in space. Get rid of the damned gaps!What gap are we still in then? Either the return of the taxi service counts as the end of the gap, or Space Shuttle was part of the gap.We're in a boom in space startups that has been building up for years now.
Quote from: high road on 09/27/2021 01:31 pmQuote from: Lee Jay on 09/27/2021 02:36 amI'll tell you what killed it for me - the gap between Apollo and Shuttle. Despite an intense interest, I went into another industry for that reason. And the gap we're in right now (post Shuttle) happened at the same time in my kids' lives. And, no, commercial crew cycling to the ISS doesn't count. It's just a taxi service and just as exciting.So, have exciting things going on that involve people in space. Get rid of the damned gaps!What gap are we still in then? Either the return of the taxi service counts as the end of the gap, or Space Shuttle was part of the gap.We're in a boom in space startups that has been building up for years now.The Space Shuttle flights often involved a high-density of EVAs performed by the Shuttle astronauts, the delivery of hardware beyond just people, or at least the delivery and berthing of an MPLM, followed by a Shuttle landing at KSC. A Dragon launch with cargo or 4 long-term ISS crew members followed by an ocean splashdown is like watching paint dry by comparison.For me, space as it is right now is as boring as it has been during my lifetime.
Quote from: Lee Jay on 09/27/2021 01:36 pmQuote from: high road on 09/27/2021 01:31 pmQuote from: Lee Jay on 09/27/2021 02:36 amI'll tell you what killed it for me - the gap between Apollo and Shuttle. Despite an intense interest, I went into another industry for that reason. And the gap we're in right now (post Shuttle) happened at the same time in my kids' lives. And, no, commercial crew cycling to the ISS doesn't count. It's just a taxi service and just as exciting.So, have exciting things going on that involve people in space. Get rid of the damned gaps!What gap are we still in then? Either the return of the taxi service counts as the end of the gap, or Space Shuttle was part of the gap.We're in a boom in space startups that has been building up for years now.The Space Shuttle flights often involved a high-density of EVAs performed by the Shuttle astronauts, the delivery of hardware beyond just people, or at least the delivery and berthing of an MPLM, followed by a Shuttle landing at KSC. A Dragon launch with cargo or 4 long-term ISS crew members followed by an ocean splashdown is like watching paint dry by comparison.For me, space as it is right now is as boring as it has been during my lifetime.I think it's age and nostalgia getting to you. Hardware is being delivered all the time. Just not by people,
..as that's very inefficient. The last module to be docked to the ISS caused the most exitement in the existence of the station (for the wrong reasons) There are plenty of EVA's on ISS that are equally as exciting/boring as Shuttle EVA's. We might see fewer and fewer of them as technology matures.
And the tack of anti-space people has changed recently: they are now using the tactic of "Billionaires and Space Billionaires are Evil and they're wasting money and taking food from the mouths of those in poverty". And "All those rocket launches are ruining the environment!!"
It's because they have far more important things to worry about, like their insecure employment and housing situations, or the fact so many of them are being discriminated against, or the fact they're inheriting a screwed up climate. Young people are getting screwed over by the previous generations at every angle, space hardly matters then. Priorities, people.
MIT’s Department of Aeronautics & Astronautics graduate admissions program this past year saw a record number of applicants, “most of whom want to work in the space business,” said Daniel Hastings, professor and head of the department.NASA’s exploration achievements and SpaceX’s high-profile space missions are driving enthusiasm at colleges and universities, Hastings said Sept. 28 at the Space Sector Market Conference in Cambridge, Mass.“I can’t tell you how many students think that flying a helicopter on Mars is just a cool thing to do. They want to do things like that, it’s really attractive to a lot of students,” said Hastings.
Quote from: MATTBLAK on 09/27/2021 02:55 amAnd the tack of anti-space people has changed recently: they are now using the tactic of "Billionaires and Space Billionaires are Evil and they're wasting money and taking food from the mouths of those in poverty". And "All those rocket launches are ruining the environment!!"Quote from: Welsh Dragon on 09/27/2021 07:34 amIt's because they have far more important things to worry about, like their insecure employment and housing situations, or the fact so many of them are being discriminated against, or the fact they're inheriting a screwed up climate. Young people are getting screwed over by the previous generations at every angle, space hardly matters then. Priorities, people.Of course, those are legitimate concerns. But what's annoying is the either-or / false dichotomy proposition that space travel must be abandoned completely to fix poverty or the environment.
My Dear Welsh Dragon; even though you are likely correct; you always seem to take the negative/glass half-empty tack. Or maybe you're just realistic...
Quote from: MATTBLAK on 09/29/2021 10:21 amMy Dear Welsh Dragon; even though you are likely correct; you always seem to take the negative/glass half-empty tack. Or maybe you're just realistic...I would counter that most people here have an unrealistically positive and blinkered view that doesn't confirm to the real world. I wouldn't say saying most people don't care either way is negative at all. It's just the facts, and anything that isn't actively hostile is fine by me.
Quote from: Pipcard on 09/28/2021 11:29 pmOf course, those are legitimate concerns. But what's annoying is the either-or / false dichotomy proposition that space travel must be abandoned completely to fix poverty or the environment.I think that's a view more commonly (and falsely) ascribed to people by space fans than actually held by people. Most of the general public couldn't care less either way.
Of course, those are legitimate concerns. But what's annoying is the either-or / false dichotomy proposition that space travel must be abandoned completely to fix poverty or the environment.
Maybe people think space is waaay more expensive than it really is?
Part of this is the notion that "billionaires intentionally conspire to abandon us on a dying planet as they escape to space." Not saying that I agree with this (nor do I believe in hero-worshipping billionaires), but that's their argument.
Some well educated people absolutely do not care one jot about space or spaceflight.An old friend of mine, an arts graduate who knew several languages and became an accountant is a case in point.A very intelligent guy, but I once mentioned something about Jupiter and his response was something like "Oh, that's millions of miles away, it doesn't have any effect on the real world.". I believe he meant 'real effect on people'.
Quote from: Welsh Dragon on 09/29/2021 07:34 amQuote from: Pipcard on 09/28/2021 11:29 pmOf course, those are legitimate concerns. But what's annoying is the either-or / false dichotomy proposition that space travel must be abandoned completely to fix poverty or the environment.I think that's a view more commonly (and falsely) ascribed to people by space fans than actually held by people. Most of the general public couldn't care less either way. Wrong.I'm a volunteer for an obscure little space museum in the Netherlands. One of our activities is that we organize lectures about spaceflight and astronomy subjects. After each lecture there is time for questions and discussion. Over the past 24 years I've seen many times where people in the audience came up with "we must abandon spaceflight and use the funds to fix poverty/famine/climate change".This thing is NOT a view falsely held by space fans. It actually does exist in the general public and it's been in existence for a long time. The first comments of this nature from the general public go as far back as the Apollo program.
On the subject of Billionaires 'wasting money on space', I look the speaker in the eye and ask them directly. "So you want to put 130,000 plus people out of good paying jobs so you can hand out a pittance to everyone?"
Saturday Night Live has been doing 'Billionaire Space Race' sketches - eviscerating and denigrating the efforts of the 'Space Billionaires'. A lot of people watch this show and these items could certainly be interpreted as Anti-Space Propaganda, bought and paid for with network budgets and advertising revenue. The Genie is out of the bottle and the tide is turning. Even a space fan like Stephen Colbert has at times been harsh in his lampooning of Space ventures. When 'Space Billionaires' - not NASA - are poised to play the major role in the future of Space Exploration; everyone concerned would have a right to be worried about it's future...
Phraseology question: are we talking "supportive", and in "I approve of a space program.", or interested in getting into a STEM career, as in "Not only do I want to get into a STEM field, but I am smart enough to do it, and am willing to make the sacrifices to be in it?" From what I hear, SpaceX burns people out at a rate equaling NASA in the 1960s. I'd like to hope that's wrong.
My immediate response to this was that space exploration needs to be presented as a good vs. evil rivalry with vicarious participation, heroes and villains and actual conflict and competition, albeit non-violent, if you actually want mass support. If done correctly, the masses will voluntarily donate their money and support. In short, it needs to be run the same way as sporting franchises.Look at the NFL (American National Football League for our metric-using friends). Half the NASA budget in 2020, at least that much again with gambling (legal and otherwise), a devoted army of fans that know everything about "their" team (even though virtually every team member was born and grew up somewhere else and looks nothing like them) and will spend ridiculous amounts of money on stuff with the team logo while giving up significant amounts of their increasingly scarce free time to sit in one place to watch the teams "play", all while swilling the rotten beer that the sponsors have been programming them to swill for decades (3 times the NASA budget just for the beer). Add in baseball and basketball in the US and the budget is staggering compared to NASA.Apollo was such a success with the public because it hit many of those same points - American mom-and-apple-pie vs. Soviet godless communism, an actual competition and Death always waiting in the wings, spectacular visuals and home town heroes (plus Tang to drink). It didn't fall apart until after the US won the championship game. With no rematch scheduled, NASA had no reason to stay on the field yet refused to go home, so the fans lost interest (except for the hardcore ones that always want post-season games and no one likes those folks except the other fanatics). What few sports-like features space exploration has now are more like English fox-hunting or polo than a mass entertainment sport. It's done by the wealthy, requires a position in life that most will never achieve and it's easier to focus on the animal-cruelty aspects than any mass enjoyment. Sound familiar?So that's my prescription - rather than trying to inspire youngsters to go into STEM to participate in Humanity's Grand Adventure, dumb it all down and make it appeal to the fundamental instinctive need to show those miserable others who don't know their place that we're better than they are (pass the cheap beer).We don't need scientists - we need Space Hooligans.
Short answer: you can’t.We need to recognize that this is a generational thing. Space was the “in thing” for Boomers and Gen-Xers. Unsurprisingly, most of our forum members seem to belong to those generations. And our childhood has a huge influence on what we fan for later in life.....The race is over.
It's also a problem that so many people conflate anything related to space with NASA.
Short answer: you can’t.We need to recognize that this is a generational thing. Space was the “in thing” for Boomers and Gen-Xers. Unsurprisingly, most of our forum members seem to belong to those generations. And our childhood has a huge influence on what we fan for later in life.Boomers had Apollo. Gen-X had Shuttle back when it was cool. What did Millennials and Zoomers have?
It is a valid question. In a broader context I would change it to "how to make people/children interested in tomorrow instead of living the immediate gratification life just in the today?". While I have no great answer, my simple thinking would be two-fold. Basically, less CableTV and less Fa[ck]ebook time and more books to read which encourages concentration, dreams and time commitment to reach the end. With endings that inspire and lead to a realization "Wow, I never though about that!" and many questions to their peers and parents. From Jules Verne "to the moon" to, I don't know, "Harry Potter" or even "Moving Mars". For the older ones, plenty of reading material in the Hard science fiction books thread.Good luck.
One way you can increase interest in space as a natural progression; try find a way to stamp out the constant, 24/7 barrage of conspiracy theories, flat earthers and 'space isn't even real' imbeciles who pollute social media, comments sections on news and science websites, YouTube etc. Their barrage is determined and relentless and they *ARE* getting converts and winning hearts and minds, every day. There are not many people actually doing it; but they are doing it for free, with an almost religious zeal. No amount of education and public affairs budget can ever hope to compete with those who are doing it free of charge. And the tack of anti-space people has changed recently: they are now using the tactic of "Billionaires and Space Billionaires are Evil and they're wasting money and taking food from the mouths of those in poverty". And "All those rocket launches are ruining the environment!!"Those are direct quotes, said to me in recent weeks - to my face. And the internet is full of similar sentiment. I am not exaggerating, even one iota. The anti-intellectual and anti-science & engineering movement is a gathering storm. They came after and undermined medical science and vaccinations; now they are coming after Space as well.Don't believe me? Think I'm exaggerating? I wasn't exaggerating when I warned Apollo 11 celebrations in 2019 would come under Troll and Hacker attacks - they did. Bezos and Branson in space came under almost universal condemnation. Just watch the escalation of this when Starship and SLS fly in space.Think I'm exaggerating? You just watch... >