Post colony. Rise of biocyborgs, Animals genetically enhanced, Cyborg identity

[JulesVerneATV]

The most successful Mars colonists and successful people on offworld colonies might be enhanced, the animals and plants will probably be engineered in some way. Some animals and plants might be selected for their resistance to heat and cold and radiation, Dyson hypothesized that Dyson Trees could be produced using genetic engineering to survive on icy worlds. Medical enhancements or steroids or using behavior-altering drugs is a controversial subject but cigarettes, or some type of sleeping pill or coffee, alcohol and other drugs are common in social interaction, to enhance concentration or to help sleeping and this Recreational /Medical drug consumption  culture is common practice in many cities on Earth. Use of drugs or steroids can open up a whole other world of social problems and health problems, at the South Pole there seems to be a stronger push to keep things more strict in Antarctica after a number of events were blamed on "Loose rules. Yet we know through Athletics there are times when an enhanced person is given an unfair advantage over a person who does not use steroids or performance enhancing substances such as 'Anabolic Steroids'. However that is not to say humans will not have success the ordinary human non-enhanced astronaut has made great contribution, they will continue doing great missions.  When it comes to settlements and successful colonies the people who have not been augmented might be at a disadvantage on future space colonies. On dusty sandy desert areas some animals have evolved to have nasal turbinates. which serve as filters, trapping particles and preventing them from reaching the lung. Oscar Pistorius is now scandalized as a convicted murderer but before this the South African “blade runner” Oscar Pistorius was stated he could have an unfair advantage against normal humans.  Currently there’s still a big gap between the scifi fantasy vision of cyborgs, and the current reality of an injured person being dependent on medication or a technology device or an implant or a prosthetic in day-to-day life but that gap is getting smaller and the 'Cyborg' might pass the human soon in many areas.


New Artificial Muscle Could Let Humanoid Robots Lift 4,000 Times Their Own Weight
https://www.zmescience.com/science/news-science/this-new-artificial-muscle-could-let-humanoid-robots-lift-4000-times-their-own-weight/

Gene therapy restores hearing in toddlers and teenagers born with congenital deafness – new research
https://theconversation.com/gene-therapy-restores-hearing-in-toddlers-and-teenagers-born-with-congenital-deafness-new-research-258112

Experimental treatment restores sight to man with genetic eye disorder in Italy
https://www.euronews.com/health/2025/07/30/experimental-treatment-restores-sight-to-man-with-genetic-eye-disorder-in-italy

Artificial Limbs and Joints Market to Reach USD 4.5 Billion by 2031, Driven by Rising Demand for High-Performance Prosthetics: Market Research Intellect
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/artificial-limbs-joints-market-reach-152900760.html

[JulesVerneATV]

A lot of people seem to not 'like' to admit this but the most successful colonist cultures might not be truly animal or human anymore, they will be possibly animals bred and engineered for enhancement just as we took creatures from one region in our history and successfully bred and selected animals that would be better studied to new villages and new climates. On space colonies some of the more successful towns might have controversial genetic engineering, a human or animal might have  model replicated parts to better deal with conditions in space. On cold world's humans might be engineered to have traits of an Arctic Fox or Fish or Penguin, intricate adaptations and specialized vascular structure with a counter-current heat exchange system. Eyes might be enhanced to see the Blue White Colors of Europa or all the Red Brown and Orange colors of Mars. Artificial Limbs have been around thousands of years, we have many stories, folklore and works history of questioning the boundaries between human, nature, and technology. Humans might wear a type of 'Lens' that recognizes data and spots patters, implant ear pieces might be switched on and off to enhance hearing on alien worlds or maybe even translate foreign languages from other off-world villages. It is possible Transhumanism will expand rapidly off world, the enhanced animal begin more successful than a normal Earth animal the “Cyborg Identity” being the most successful of these offworld persons.

[Vultur]

I am skeptical of genetic engineering of humans helping much, even beyond all the (enormous) ethical concerns. Humans are complex beings and there are many tradeoffs to deal with.

Genetic engineering of useful plants, microbes, or livestock, OTOH, is quite another matter. In this case we are optimizing for something very specific (food production, fiber production, fuel production, etc) and not overall quality of life - even without literal (transgenic) genetic engineering selectively bred crops and livestock are often highly optimized for something very specific and vulnerable in other ways. (E.g. some cattle breeds require veterinary intervention for successful birth, the primary banana cultivar is very vulnerable to disease, etc).

I am somewhat skeptical of full on Dyson Trees as originally imagined* working, however. Life needs water and it is hard to see how a living thing in vacuum could allow in water from an external source without allowing its external water to boil off.

OTOH, engineered flora growing openly in an environment like Mars (below datum altitude, where liquid water can exist briefly) or the clouds of Venus, or below the surface of an icy body where overlying layers provide pressure, seems quite possible. There are apparently life forms that could grow on Mars *now* with no more intervention than water being provided at the proper time (though, for something like an Antarctic photosynthetic endolith, that would require something more complicated than a watering can/garden hose - water might well need to be injected into the rock).

*Something similar in spirit, but less tree-like, is very likely possible - as long as it is below the surface of the icy body, not on the surface exposed to vacuum.

[Twark_Main]

we took creatures from one region in our history and successfully bred and selected animals that would be better studied to new villages and new climates

...

On cold world's humans might be engineered to have traits of an Arctic Fox or Fish or Penguin, intricate adaptations and specialized vascular structure with a counter-current heat exchange system.

Surely any such effort should start with existing people (and domesticated animals) that are already specially genetically adapted to the extreme conditions.

One example that immediately springs to mind is the Himalaya Sherpa community. Medical science has already verified higher tolerance for extreme cold and low pressure.

If you plan to generically engineer future humans, the fastest and cheapest route would have you start with Sherpa or other people possessing similar genetic gifts.

Similarly, cold communities today have specialized livestock breeds that are adapted to cold climates. Naturally the first step (which can start immediately!) would be to identify and catalogue these breeds to be used as a population starting point.


There's no point repeating a bunch of work that's already been done here on Earth.

[Paul451]

AIUI, many Asian countries don't have the West's deep cultural abhorrence to genetic engineering. Yet you don't even see the kind of "simple" genetic engineering of children shown in the movie Gattaca, strictly limited just to the selection of genes already found in parents. If there's money, talent and still no product even in the absence of moral restrictions, that suggests the science is not even close to what is being proposed.

[Vultur]

we took creatures from one region in our history and successfully bred and selected animals that would be better studied to new villages and new climates

...

On cold world's humans might be engineered to have traits of an Arctic Fox or Fish or Penguin, intricate adaptations and specialized vascular structure with a counter-current heat exchange system.

Surely any such effort should start with existing people (and domesticated animals) that are already specially genetically adapted to the extreme conditions.

One example that immediately springs to mind is the Himalaya Sherpa community. Medical science has already verified higher tolerance for extreme cold and low pressure.

If you plan to generically engineer future humans, the fastest and cheapest route would have you start with Sherpa or other people possessing similar genetic gifts.

Similarly, cold communities today have specialized livestock breeds that are adapted to cold climates. Naturally the first step (which can start immediately!) would be to identify and catalogue these breeds to be used as a population starting point.


There's no point repeating a bunch of work that's already been done here on Earth.

While these adaptations are very real, I don't think they help much. The difference between sea level pressure and the highest altitude permanent communities is maybe 50%, low altitude on Mars is more like 1% (even if the atmosphere was oxygenated).

And the advantage isn't even really 50%. Populations in the high Andes and Tibet pretty much need these adaptations to survive long term (individuals can physiologically adapt and survive, but pregnancy at say 3500m+ doesn't work well in the absence of these adaptations), but there are plenty of much larger populations at significant but lower altitudes (like Mexico City, Denver, Albuquerque, etc). The difference between Mexico City pressure and the highest permanent settlements is more like 30%.
.

Also, La Rinconada, Peru at 5100m is sort of an unique case -everything else near it in elevation appears to be far smaller - and is probably unhealthy even *with* altitude adaptations.  In general even high altitude adapted people tend to live at more like 3000-4000m (Lhasa in Tibet, La Paz/El Alto in Bolivia, Cusco in Peru, etc).

[Vultur]

AIUI, many Asian countries don't have the West's deep cultural abhorrence to genetic engineering. Yet you don't even see the kind of "simple" genetic engineering of children shown in the movie Gattaca, strictly limited just to the selection of genes already found in parents. If there's money, talent and still no product even in the absence of moral restrictions, that suggests the science is not even close to what is being proposed.

It's incredibly hard.

I am not sure I *entirely* agree with you about the lack of restrictions though; the one time this has actually been tried that I'm aware of, in China, the scientist responsible (He Jiankui) went to jail. I can't speak to whether the objections were moral or "political" (PR, etc.) but it's not legally safe to do in China as far as I'm aware.

[Twark_Main]

we took creatures from one region in our history and successfully bred and selected animals that would be better studied to new villages and new climates

...

On cold world's humans might be engineered to have traits of an Arctic Fox or Fish or Penguin, intricate adaptations and specialized vascular structure with a counter-current heat exchange system.

Surely any such effort should start with existing people (and domesticated animals) that are already specially genetically adapted to the extreme conditions.

One example that immediately springs to mind is the Himalaya Sherpa community. Medical science has already verified higher tolerance for extreme cold and low pressure.

If you plan to generically engineer future humans, the fastest and cheapest route would have you start with Sherpa or other people possessing similar genetic gifts.

Similarly, cold communities today have specialized livestock breeds that are adapted to cold climates. Naturally the first step (which can start immediately!) would be to identify and catalogue these breeds to be used as a population starting point.


There's no point repeating a bunch of work that's already been done here on Earth.

While these adaptations are very real, I don't think they help much. The difference between sea level pressure and the highest altitude permanent communities is maybe 50%, low altitude on Mars is more like 1% (even if the atmosphere was oxygenated).

Of course, the idea wasn't to breathe totally unprotected on the surface. But when the remote mining hab or spacesuit is losing pressure and you're rushing to fix the leak, those genetics traits will give you additional Time Of Useful Consciousness. Across all hazard scenarios this  reduces risk (and ultimately, cost) and improves the overall resilience of the colony.

On an all-Sherpa crew, it also gives you the option to lower the ambient pressure further, which reduces pre-breathe time before EVA and can greatly reduce the pressure vessel mass, which is a substantial fraction of the mass of any Mars habitat.

If you are going further, toward more extreme genetic engineering projects, it helps to start with a baseline that is already closer to your goal.

And the advantage isn't even really 50%. Populations in the high Andes and Tibet pretty much need these adaptations to survive long term (individuals can physiologically adapt and survive, but pregnancy at say 3500m+ doesn't work well in the absence of these adaptations), but there are plenty of much larger populations at significant but lower altitudes (like Mexico City, Denver, Albuquerque, etc). The difference between Mexico City pressure and the highest permanent settlements is more like 30%.

Also, La Rinconada, Peru at 5100m is sort of an unique case -everything else near it in elevation appears to be far smaller - and is probably unhealthy even *with* altitude adaptations.  In general even high altitude adapted people tend to live at more like 3000-4000m (Lhasa in Tibet, La Paz/El Alto in Bolivia, Cusco in Peru, etc).

Yes, medical tests indicate that people of Sherpa ancestry are able to survive at higher altitudes, even when compared to non-Sherpa people who are similarly altitude adapted. So there is a genetic component to the exceptional Sherpa biomedical traits, not just regular old altitude adaptation.

In the same way as biology, culture also adapts to life in extremely hostile and cold and psychologically taxing environments. So it's likely that Martians will want to adopt aspects of Tibetan beliefs, lifestyles, and culture and incorporating it into the new Martian culture that will be created.


Of course, trivially, you also want to study the genetic mutations to create "turbo-charged" versions of those mutations via genetic engineering.

[Vultur]

Of course, the idea wasn't to breathe totally unprotected on the surface. But when the remote mining hab or spacesuit is losing pressure and you're rushing to fix the leak, those genetics traits will give you additional Time Of Useful Consciousness. Across all hazard scenarios this  reduces risk (and ultimately, cost) and improves the overall resilience of the colony.

On an all-Sherpa crew, it also gives you the option to lower the ambient pressure further, which reduces pre-breathe time before EVA and can greatly reduce the pressure vessel mass, which is a substantial fraction of the mass of any Mars habitat.

I'm not saying the advantage is zero, it's not. I'm just saying that it's not large enough to be worth genetic engineering of humans.

I doubt it actually "greatly" reduces the pressure vessel mass. You're not comparing sea level pressure to pressure at ~4000m; you're comparing pressure at maybe 2000m (still lower than Mexico City) to pressure at ~4000m, which is a much smaller advantage.

And that's with an Earth normal gas mix. If you're willing to mess around with the gas mix, you can probably get to zero pre-breathe and reduce the structural advantage further. Maybe much further, depending on how worried you are about fire risk.

If you are going further, toward more extreme genetic engineering projects, it helps to start with a baseline that is already closer to your goal.

Sure, but my point is that genetic engineering probably just isn't worth it.

(Of humans, that is. Of microbes - *vastly* easier than humans - there's a lot you can do. Probably of plants and maybe livestock too.)

Of course, trivially, you also want to study the genetic mutations to create "turbo-charged" versions of those mutations via genetic engineering.

Problem is, that's vastly beyond current knowledge/technology.

[Twark_Main]

Of course, the idea wasn't to breathe totally unprotected on the surface. But when the remote mining hab or spacesuit is losing pressure and you're rushing to fix the leak, those genetics traits will give you additional Time Of Useful Consciousness. Across all hazard scenarios this  reduces risk (and ultimately, cost) and improves the overall resilience of the colony.

On an all-Sherpa crew, it also gives you the option to lower the ambient pressure further, which reduces pre-breathe time before EVA and can greatly reduce the pressure vessel mass, which is a substantial fraction of the mass of any Mars habitat.

I'm not saying the advantage is zero, it's not. I'm just saying that it's not large enough to be worth genetic engineering of humans.

That's the wonderful part: what I suggest doesn't require genetic engineering of humans, just (industry standard) crew selection.

Obviously, if it's not worth doing "just" specialized crew selection criteria, then it's definitely not worth wading into the ethically dubious territory of human genetic engineering...

I doubt it actually "greatly" reduces the pressure vessel mass. You're not comparing sea level pressure to pressure at ~4000m; you're comparing pressure at maybe 2000m (still lower than Mexico City) to pressure at ~4000m, which is a much smaller advantage.

ISS is maintained at actual sea level, so I'm not sure where you're getting these numbers from.

And that's with an Earth normal gas mix. If you're willing to mess around with the gas mix, you can probably get to zero pre-breathe and reduce the structural advantage further. Maybe much further, depending on how worried you are about fire risk.

Fire risk and how long it takes people to pass out during a leak emergency. These are the two major constraints on pressure / gas composition, and careful crew selection can ease one of those two constraints.

[Vultur]

Obviously, if it's not worth doing "just" specialized crew selection criteria, then it's definitely not worth wading into the ethically dubious territory of human genetic engineering...

Yeah, that's what I'm arguing.

ISS is maintained at actual sea level, so I'm not sure where you're getting these numbers from.

I'm not talking about ISS, I'm talking about how much advantage in terms of tolerable low pressure/oxygen those genetic differences give.

2000m was me being conservative. Mexico City is like 2200-2300m. Santa Fe NM is roughly comparable. Those cities don't require any special genetic adaptations.

The highest town is La Rinconada at 5100m, but that's not really safe even for its inhabitants. 4000m is more normal for permanent living, even in the Andean Altiplano and Tibet where people are highly altitude adapted.

So the real advantage isn't sea level vs 5100m (about a 50% difference), it's more like 2200m vs 4000m (20-25%).

Possibly less; even among people who do not have the specific altitude genetic adaptations, there's a variation in altitude tolerance.

And that's with an Earth normal gas mix. If you're willing to mess around with the gas mix, you can probably get to zero pre-breathe and reduce the structural advantage further. Maybe much further, depending on how worried you are about fire risk.

Fire risk and how long it takes people to pass out during a leak emergency. These are the two major constraints on pressure / gas composition, and careful crew selection can ease one of those two constraints.

Maybe for spacesuits. If we're talking something like a Mars colony, I would expect the pressurized volumes to be large enough that leaks would be so slow that this would not be a constraint, since leaks are choked to speed of sound.

[Twark_Main]

it's more like 2200m vs 4000m (20-25%).

Saving 20% on a major massive structure like that is still amazing.

Maybe for spacesuits. If we're talking something like a Mars colony, I would expect the pressurized volumes to be large enough that leaks would be so slow that this would not be a constraint, since leaks are choked to speed of sound.

Hence why I mentioned the remote mining hab.

So Sherpa to go out and do all the work, while the rest of the colony stays inside their large safe colony hotel.