Quote from: zen-in on 06/30/2015 03:25 amQuote from: rfmwguy on 06/30/2015 02:31 amQuote from: zen-in on 06/30/2015 02:18 amQuote from: rfmwguy on 06/30/2015 12:40 am...The JNaudin website has many variants of Byfield-Brown effect lifters. I remember seeing balsa wood electrostatically driven hoverers in Popular Science in the early 60's. ...There is no relationship to an em-drive cavity except both are empty metal shells and neither one creates momentum out of thin air.Thanks. curious, are u 100% certain, beyond any reasonable doubt, that an "empty shell" can never gain momentum and that propulsion must utilize propellants?Propulsion does not always require propellants. For example deep space satellites are often swung around a planets to add delta v. However there is no machine that will by itself create momentum. The em-drive will eventually take its place next to cold fusion, polywater, and 300 MPH submarines in the Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience. Gravity assist is not technically propulsion nor is dropping a rock. although you did not answer directly, you apparently are on record believing that space propulsion requires propellants. No problem, that is a safe belief system many have from the sidelines. Me? I'm not so sure we're as omnipotent as we may think we are. Otherwise, why bother with imagination and experimentation...everything has been discovered worthy of discovery.
Quote from: rfmwguy on 06/30/2015 02:31 amQuote from: zen-in on 06/30/2015 02:18 amQuote from: rfmwguy on 06/30/2015 12:40 am...The JNaudin website has many variants of Byfield-Brown effect lifters. I remember seeing balsa wood electrostatically driven hoverers in Popular Science in the early 60's. ...There is no relationship to an em-drive cavity except both are empty metal shells and neither one creates momentum out of thin air.Thanks. curious, are u 100% certain, beyond any reasonable doubt, that an "empty shell" can never gain momentum and that propulsion must utilize propellants?Propulsion does not always require propellants. For example deep space satellites are often swung around a planets to add delta v. However there is no machine that will by itself create momentum. The em-drive will eventually take its place next to cold fusion, polywater, and 300 MPH submarines in the Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience.
Quote from: zen-in on 06/30/2015 02:18 amQuote from: rfmwguy on 06/30/2015 12:40 am...The JNaudin website has many variants of Byfield-Brown effect lifters. I remember seeing balsa wood electrostatically driven hoverers in Popular Science in the early 60's. ...There is no relationship to an em-drive cavity except both are empty metal shells and neither one creates momentum out of thin air.Thanks. curious, are u 100% certain, beyond any reasonable doubt, that an "empty shell" can never gain momentum and that propulsion must utilize propellants?
Quote from: rfmwguy on 06/30/2015 12:40 am...The JNaudin website has many variants of Byfield-Brown effect lifters. I remember seeing balsa wood electrostatically driven hoverers in Popular Science in the early 60's. ...There is no relationship to an em-drive cavity except both are empty metal shells and neither one creates momentum out of thin air.
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Quote from: SeeShells on 06/30/2015 03:44 amQuote from: aero on 06/29/2015 10:21 pm@SeeShellsYes, I can add as many sources as I want. But someone else must tell me what and where. And will that help the experimenters or theorists? I wonder if the experimenters here will be able to do add many different sources. Just the problem of coming up with the equipment and materials applied in such a way as to avoid degrading the measurements.And what is the noise bandwidth of a magnetron?Aero,These are the calculated TM and TE modes from NASA. Try a couple TM modes, be a good first start to see if it can produce a viable sequence. Double check me Jose if you would like something else... no problem.TM 311 2.4157 Ghz TM 212 2.45032 GhzShellThat's a thought. However, I thought that next I might try to generate some numbers from the cavity to get a handle on the field strength and distribution. That should provide some immediately useful data. Not immediate data, but data that will be useful as soon as it arrives.
Quote from: aero on 06/29/2015 10:21 pm@SeeShellsYes, I can add as many sources as I want. But someone else must tell me what and where. And will that help the experimenters or theorists? I wonder if the experimenters here will be able to do add many different sources. Just the problem of coming up with the equipment and materials applied in such a way as to avoid degrading the measurements.And what is the noise bandwidth of a magnetron?Aero,These are the calculated TM and TE modes from NASA. Try a couple TM modes, be a good first start to see if it can produce a viable sequence. Double check me Jose if you would like something else... no problem.TM 311 2.4157 Ghz TM 212 2.45032 GhzShell
@SeeShellsYes, I can add as many sources as I want. But someone else must tell me what and where. And will that help the experimenters or theorists? I wonder if the experimenters here will be able to do add many different sources. Just the problem of coming up with the equipment and materials applied in such a way as to avoid degrading the measurements.And what is the noise bandwidth of a magnetron?
Here is attached a toy model for a kind of (uncontroversial) mechanical ratchet, ballast in a box, perfect slip in a direction, perfect stop the other way (idealised)(...)So an apparent "inertial ratchet" is an easily satisfiable claim, the question is the possibility of such a device that could work for long "unlimited" total displacement, to me this appears more like a problem of conservation of centre of mass than of available energy (unless energy directly beamed to vacuum to get net momentum => photon rocket again). A note of caution : it is easy to get apparent net non zero results from transients or "one shot" effects, that doesn't imply possibility for any long term stationary mode of operation.
Been following this thread for a few weeks, decided to hop in to help if I could.Aero, do you need only the most recent MEEP package?I was going to go ahead and compile it from source for you but I found:http://ab-initio.mit.edu/wiki/index.php/Meep_DownloadAccording to the wiki, they have a precompiled source package available:"apt-get install meep h5utils"There is also a parallel source file:"apt-get install meep-mpi"If you need other packages compiled with it or the OpenMPI version, I will see what I can do.
Quote from: apoc2021 on 06/30/2015 01:26 amGuys –I would like to humbly submit for consideration that the efforts in this thread could in effect be viewed as a distributed research project. We have resilient experimenters, brilliant theorists, persistent data analysts.. even some equipment. However, this day in age, there are many other resources potentially available for the community to use - if only we become organized enough to identify and seek them out.What other resources are needed to move forward the collective work taking place here? For example, do we need:- More MEEP analysts, to lessen the load on our brave Aero?- AmazonAWS/Google Cloud compute time?- A recurring schedule of group Google Hangouts to discuss current theory and next steps?- A machine learning/data science expert, to find hidden or subtle relationships?- Funding/donations for equipment? Perhaps held in a multisig scam wallet with a major provider?- A better platform for distributed research projects?- Simply more hobbyists paying attention and contributing views?- Perhaps we don't need anything, and this is the most efficient that we can be?It seems we are all driving towards the same goal.. just some thoughts to consider to take this exploration one efficient step further. Happy to help however possible.I like it, and I certainly like the first bullet. Not so sure about the brave part but the "lessen the load" part sure would help if we could somehow divide the load into parts that could be more responsive to valid and doable requests for data.
Guys –I would like to humbly submit for consideration that the efforts in this thread could in effect be viewed as a distributed research project. We have resilient experimenters, brilliant theorists, persistent data analysts.. even some equipment. However, this day in age, there are many other resources potentially available for the community to use - if only we become organized enough to identify and seek them out.What other resources are needed to move forward the collective work taking place here? For example, do we need:- More MEEP analysts, to lessen the load on our brave Aero?- AmazonAWS/Google Cloud compute time?- A recurring schedule of group Google Hangouts to discuss current theory and next steps?- A machine learning/data science expert, to find hidden or subtle relationships?- Funding/donations for equipment? Perhaps held in a multisig scam wallet with a major provider?- A better platform for distributed research projects?- Simply more hobbyists paying attention and contributing views?- Perhaps we don't need anything, and this is the most efficient that we can be?It seems we are all driving towards the same goal.. just some thoughts to consider to take this exploration one efficient step further. Happy to help however possible.
Quote from: deuteragenie on 06/29/2015 08:56 pm...Ack.For a start, it would be good to simulate the effect of changing the dimensions a bit. Does it dramatically affect the results ?Same for frequency: does a small change in freq affects the results in sigificant way?Same for antenna length.Etc.This could provide valuable information for experimenters. Agreed. Ack. There is a lot to simulate.We are going to have to put some priorities though...(There is also the issues of antenna type, antenna location, waveguide coupling, and on and on)
...Ack.For a start, it would be good to simulate the effect of changing the dimensions a bit. Does it dramatically affect the results ?Same for frequency: does a small change in freq affects the results in sigificant way?Same for antenna length.Etc.This could provide valuable information for experimenters.
The following Wave form images might help?...
The following Wave form images might help?, when thinking of the meaning of image colors/densities from meep/comsol etc. There is a relation between wave amplitude/location and the color displayed...each package will have its own definitions for color combinations... it seems that some packages use the same color scheme, but reverse definitions between positive and negative amplitudes, What was the bottom is now the top and vise-a-versa...this may explain the color switching with meep etc as waves cycle/pivot around a "defined" starting point or zero line within the cavity, or if there exist both positive and negative values in a graph the effective range may adjust to start from the middle ...still thinking on this......
The HDF5 files generated by Meep contain all data you need... problem is to extract it !
...That's a thought. However, I thought that next I might try to generate some numbers from the cavity to get a handle on the field strength and distribution. That should provide some immediately useful data. Not immediate data, but data that will be useful as soon as it arrives.
..Propulsion does not always require propellants. For example deep space satellites are often swung around a planets to add delta v. However there is no machine that will by itself create momentum. The em-drive will eventually take its place next to cold fusion, polywater, and 300 MPH submarines in the Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience.
The inertial ratchet route demands that one specifies that thing off of which one pushes. What is it? Why has it not been detected as pushed off of in the other trillions of large and small, uninstrumented to fully instrumented tests of classical mechanics over the centuries? I don't expect a coherent answer, so treat this question as rhetorical and merely as food for thought. Or as a clue.
Quote from: rfmwguy on 06/30/2015 03:40 amQuote from: zen-in on 06/30/2015 03:25 amQuote from: rfmwguy on 06/30/2015 02:31 amQuote from: zen-in on 06/30/2015 02:18 amQuote from: rfmwguy on 06/30/2015 12:40 am......There is no relationship to an em-drive cavity except both are empty metal shells and neither one creates momentum out of thin air.Thanks. curious, are u 100% certain, beyond any reasonable doubt, that an "empty shell" can never gain momentum and that propulsion must utilize propellants?...The em-drive will eventually take its place next to cold fusion, polywater, and 300 MPH submarines in the Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience. ...A story...Once upon a time there were no laws, no CoM no CoE no Maxwell and spacetime ruled. The laws melted out from the primordial soup of quarks and heat and one force after another assembled to define how our universe could work. To me it was like a can of different sized rocks and sand, when cooling down the universe shook the can and the sand and rocks self assembled. It doesn't bother me one iota that we're shaking the can of rocks to see what happens and who knows what we will find? This isn't about saying we are going to violate anything, it's saying we are going to inquire and look and do some questioning science.Shell
Quote from: zen-in on 06/30/2015 03:25 amQuote from: rfmwguy on 06/30/2015 02:31 amQuote from: zen-in on 06/30/2015 02:18 amQuote from: rfmwguy on 06/30/2015 12:40 am......There is no relationship to an em-drive cavity except both are empty metal shells and neither one creates momentum out of thin air.Thanks. curious, are u 100% certain, beyond any reasonable doubt, that an "empty shell" can never gain momentum and that propulsion must utilize propellants?...The em-drive will eventually take its place next to cold fusion, polywater, and 300 MPH submarines in the Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience. ...
Quote from: rfmwguy on 06/30/2015 02:31 amQuote from: zen-in on 06/30/2015 02:18 amQuote from: rfmwguy on 06/30/2015 12:40 am......There is no relationship to an em-drive cavity except both are empty metal shells and neither one creates momentum out of thin air.Thanks. curious, are u 100% certain, beyond any reasonable doubt, that an "empty shell" can never gain momentum and that propulsion must utilize propellants?...The em-drive will eventually take its place next to cold fusion, polywater, and 300 MPH submarines in the Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience.
Quote from: zen-in on 06/30/2015 02:18 amQuote from: rfmwguy on 06/30/2015 12:40 am......There is no relationship to an em-drive cavity except both are empty metal shells and neither one creates momentum out of thin air.Thanks. curious, are u 100% certain, beyond any reasonable doubt, that an "empty shell" can never gain momentum and that propulsion must utilize propellants?
Quote from: rfmwguy on 06/30/2015 12:40 am......There is no relationship to an em-drive cavity except both are empty metal shells and neither one creates momentum out of thin air.
[...Perhaps those with a negative viewpoint should submit a formal refutation paper in 2016 to the the Joint Army Navy Nasa Airforce org about the folly of Propellantless Propulsion. We're a small group of independents here, these are the big boys: https://www.jannaf.org/mtgs/June2015/pages/sps.html "Mission Area IV: Propellantless Propulsion SystemsChair:Mr. Matthew Gasch, NASA-ARC/Moffett FieldTelephone: (650) 604-5377Email: [email protected] Emphasis is on solar sail propulsion, electrodynamic and momentum exchange tether propulsion, aerocapture and other innovative technologies that use the natural environments of space to derive propulsion without the expenditure of conventional fuel. ...
Quote from: arc on 06/30/2015 05:18 amThe following Wave form images might help?, when thinking of the meaning of image colors/densities from meep/comsol etc. There is a relation between wave amplitude/location and the color displayed...each package will have its own definitions for color combinations... it seems that some packages use the same color scheme, but reverse definitions between positive and negative amplitudes, What was the bottom is now the top and vise-a-versa...this may explain the color switching with meep etc as waves cycle/pivot around a "defined" starting point or zero line within the cavity, or if there exist both positive and negative values in a graph the effective range may adjust to start from the middle ...still thinking on this......Quote from: deuteragenie on 06/30/2015 10:30 amThe HDF5 files generated by Meep contain all data you need... problem is to extract it !Quote from: aero on 06/30/2015 03:57 am...That's a thought. However, I thought that next I might try to generate some numbers from the cavity to get a handle on the field strength and distribution. That should provide some immediately useful data. Not immediate data, but data that will be useful as soon as it arrives.A) At the moment we are not even getting NUMBERS from the Meep runs, so:1) We don't even know whether the field's magnitude are essentially zero (Meep's FD scheme does NOT satisfy Maxwell's equations throughout the meshed surface, therefore what should be zero is displayed as a contour of non-zero numbers. In that case what is displayed is meaningless, just numerical noise that confuses people in thinking that a fractal pattern is real when it is just noise)2) Therefore we can't distinguish between different field components. Therefore it is even difficult to tell what mode shape is being excited or what is going on.The first order of business is for Meep to output numbers, so that numbers can be associated with numbered scales for the images.Without numbers, you won't be able to display any other images, as all images are made from numbers.No numbers, no comprehension. No numbers, no post-processing (no post-porcessing of images by others, etc). No numbers, all you have are funky colors and difficult to decipher images output by Meep.At the moment we are trying to make sense out of this by applying some heuristics, considering anything with fractals throughout as zero, and considering images with well-formed smooth contours to be the significant images.If people want to help with Meep, what is needed is to know how to get Meep to output the NUMBERS associated with the electromagnetic fields, that is priority #1 //////////////////////////B) Once we get numbers, the next priority is to output the net Force at every Finite Difference Time step, to be able to plot Force vs. time, for a well-understood case. For example, for the geometry of rfmwguy with L=9 inches that showed mode shape TM212 at 2.45 GHz which agrees with NASA's COMSOL FEA and agrees with the exact solution results.
...I have already explained how to get a CSV file with the fluxes and repeat the information (example) below for convenience. I have tested it and it works.1. Define a region where flux is to be measured(define wvg-pwr (add-flux f 0 1 (make flux-region (direction Z) (center 0 0) (size (* 1.2 (+ (* 2 sw) s)) (* 1.2 sw) 0))))2. Display the fluxes (the output will be as CSV), in the run-until section:(display-fluxes wvg-pwr)
Quote from: deuteragenie on 06/30/2015 12:43 pm...I have already explained how to get a CSV file with the fluxes and repeat the information (example) below for convenience. I have tested it and it works.1. Define a region where flux is to be measured(define wvg-pwr (add-flux f 0 1 (make flux-region (direction Z) (center 0 0) (size (* 1.2 (+ (* 2 sw) s)) (* 1.2 sw) 0))))2. Display the fluxes (the output will be as CSV), in the run-until section:(display-fluxes wvg-pwr)Thank you. Can you also provide instructions on how to output numbers for the electromagnetic fields (Ex, Ey, Ez, Hx, Hy, Hz) at the final time step ?Even better, and more desirable, can you provide instructions on how to output a numerical label for the contour plots being displayed by aero, associating the contour colors to numbers, as it is done in just every other FEA and FD computer code contour displays, or as routinely done in Mathematica, Maple, etc. and other software that displays contour plots?If the answer is no, maybe other readers of this thread, willing to hep, can help.
...How to extract this data in a text format: http://ab-initio.mit.edu/h5utils/h5totxt-man.htmlWhere aero currently use h5topng to create the images, h5totxt will extract the data as csv. It should be installed on his computer as it is part of the h5 utils tool set. All untested, but we are not too far to get numbers.[/color]b. Unfortunately I do not know how this can be achieved.
Quote from: Rodal on 06/30/2015 12:59 pmQuote from: deuteragenie on 06/30/2015 12:43 pm...I have already explained how to get a CSV file with the fluxes and repeat the information (example) below for convenience. I have tested it and it works.1. Define a region where flux is to be measured(define wvg-pwr (add-flux f 0 1 (make flux-region (direction Z) (center 0 0) (size (* 1.2 (+ (* 2 sw) s)) (* 1.2 sw) 0))))2. Display the fluxes (the output will be as CSV), in the run-until section:(display-fluxes wvg-pwr)Thank you. Can you also provide instructions on how to output numbers for the electromagnetic fields (Ex, Ey, Ez, Hx, Hy, Hz) at the final time step ?Even better, and more desirable, can you provide instructions on how to output a numerical label for the contour plots being displayed by aero, associating the contour colors to numbers, as it is done in just every other FEA and FD computer code contour displays, or as routinely done in Mathematica, Maple, etc. and other software that displays contour plots?If the answer is no, maybe other readers of this thread, willing to hep, can help.a. Example: (at-end output-efield-z) will store Ez in the final (ie last) HDF5 file. Update! How to extract this data in a text format: http://ab-initio.mit.edu/h5utils/h5totxt-man.htmlWhere aero currently use h5topng to create the images, h5totxt will extract the data as csv. It should be installed on his computer as it is part of the h5 utils tool set. All untested, but we are not too far to get numbers.b. Unfortunately I do not know how this can be achieved.