Author Topic: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About  (Read 33052 times)

Offline su27k

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https://impakter.com/the-problems-with-space-mining-no-one-is-talking-about/

Quote
The level of wealth required to pursue an asteroid mining venture is concentrated in the hands of a very small number of people. Large disparities exist between those able to take advantage of the resources and those most at risk of harm by exploitation.

It also seems possible, if not likely, that the earliest successes in asteroid mining will be the only successes. Competition with established companies will be an additional barrier, and a monopoly or cartel may develop.

Daniel Pilchman, a legal philosopher, says asteroid mining is likely to increase inequality on Earth. He argues it will therefore be an unethical practice, unless it can be regulated to bring benefits to all. James Schwartz, also a philosopher, says mining asteroid resources is unlikely to “significantly improve the well-being of average human beings,” and by extension, would be unethical.

Offline Metalskin

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #1 on: 09/13/2022 02:11 am »
I find the use of the term "risk of harm by exploitation" to be a bit of hyperbole when they can only point to the dust created from the Didymos impact test and are somehow extrapolating that it has a risk of harm.

I concede the point that individuals are more likely to start investigating asteroid mining, but until there are independent settlements outside of earth, countries will always find a way to tax the individuals. And then there are places like China that have a greater capacity (as a government) to think and act long term, who may give the "individuals" a run for their money in such endeavours.

In all honesty, seems like a thought exercise to justify papers/conferences/lectures, but imho not a lot of substance.
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Offline Eric Hedman

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #2 on: 09/13/2022 03:51 am »
What a load of garbage.  Not worth any more comment than that.

Offline Stan-1967

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #3 on: 09/13/2022 05:31 am »
In an ideal world, the author should more honestly refer to himself as "Planetary Astrologist", or at least not burnish his image with "Planetary Astronomer", which implies some fealty to the methods & practices of science.  The poor arguments, logical inanities, and overall self loathing & self flagellation in that article was antithetical to science, and was focused on appealing to groups and ideologies fiercely opposed to science. 

Offline laszlo

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #4 on: 09/13/2022 01:08 pm »
Don't forget to read the second half of the article:

Quote
On the flip side of questions about whether it is ethical to mine asteroids is the question of whether it is ethical to leave a vast store of resources untouched. Resources that would be useful for things like green energy and large-scale agriculture.

Asteroid resources are unlikely to harbour life, meanwhile the only planetary body with known life in the Solar System, Earth, continues to be exploited. Weighing these ethical issues may become necessary in the face of climate change and ecosystem collapse. Planetary scientist Philip Metzger argues space mining will allow solutions to Earth’s increasing energy demands that are not currently feasible, such as beaming solar energy via microwave to Earth.

And Stan,  the "astrologist" has a PhD in Planetary Sciences, did his undergraduate work at MIT and is currently affiliated with the JHU APL. He's published 89 research works and has 2679 citations. That sounds more like a serious astronomer than an astrologist. If you disagree with what he's saying, try to make valid counter-arguments, instead of resorting to ad hominem attacks.

Online mn

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #5 on: 09/13/2022 01:36 pm »
We should probably not harvest apples since there are many people who don't have access to apples.

Offline Cherokee43v6

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #6 on: 09/13/2022 01:54 pm »
The biggest problem with asteroid mining is that there is no economic justification for doing it.  Name a resource you can get from asteroids that is in significant demand that is NOT cheaper to acquire from terrestrial sources.

The demand for asteroid resources will only grow once there is in space demand for those resources.  Launching from a planetary gravity well strictly to gather iron, gold, platinum, etc to re-import to Earth is not economically viable.

On the other hand, if you build the structure of an orbital colony or even a manufacturing facility in space, then the demand for basic resources, such as water or carbon from asteroids to supply that facility begins to make economic sense.  And once the first ones are established, then the infrastructure ability to process space resources to build more is then in place.
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Online Robotbeat

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #7 on: 09/14/2022 01:08 am »
https://impakter.com/the-problems-with-space-mining-no-one-is-talking-about/

Quote
The level of wealth required to pursue an asteroid mining venture is concentrated in the hands of a very small number of people. Large disparities exist between those able to take advantage of the resources and those most at risk of harm by exploitation.

It also seems possible, if not likely, that the earliest successes in asteroid mining will be the only successes. Competition with established companies will be an additional barrier, and a monopoly or cartel may develop.

Daniel Pilchman, a legal philosopher, says asteroid mining is likely to increase inequality on Earth. He argues it will therefore be an unethical practice, unless it can be regulated to bring benefits to all. James Schwartz, also a philosopher, says mining asteroid resources is unlikely to “significantly improve the well-being of average human beings,” and by extension, would be unethical.
pROBleMS wITH spaCE MiNiNg nO oNe Is TalKInG abOUT
*sigh*
Literally everyone in certain academic circles talks about this whenever space mining comes it. It's ALL they talk about.

These fellows take, as axiomatic, that "mining asteroid resources is unlikely to “significantly improve the well-being of average human beings,”"
...and then from there draw whatever ideological conclusion they want.

It's just circular thinking idiocy. I don't take seriously anyone who argues it.
« Last Edit: 09/14/2022 01:42 am by Robotbeat »
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Online Robotbeat

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #8 on: 09/14/2022 01:17 am »
Reminds me of the anti-science mob (filled with intellectuals, fwiw) in H.G. Wells' Things to Come:

"How can we do that when your science and inventions are perpetually changing life for us? When you're everlastingly contriving strange things? When you make what we think great, seem small? When you make what we think strong, seem feeble? We don't want you in the same world with us. We don't want this expedition! We don't want Mankind to go out to the moon and to the planets. We shall hate you more if you succeed than if you fail!"

If one person does well, that is bad. (Not to mention that additional resources will generally end up helping everyone overall, even before taxes.) Like the (probably apocryphal) story of crabs in a bucket:
Quote
A crab placed alone in a bucket will easily climb out and escape, but when you place it with a few of its mates, this interesting phenomenon occurs: One at a time, as the crabs try to escape, other crabs will pull them back down to their misery and the group's collective demise

The irony is that the regulations these people want will most likely prevent the poorer nations from venturing to space as they won't be able to just buy a ticket or spacecraft from SpaceX, Relativity, or whoever, but will be expected to invent one themselves. Regulations are often what *create* the barriers to entry.
« Last Edit: 09/14/2022 01:23 am by Robotbeat »
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Online Robotbeat

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #9 on: 09/14/2022 01:26 am »
The biggest problem with asteroid mining is that there is no economic justification for doing it.  Name a resource you can get from asteroids that is in significant demand that is NOT cheaper to acquire from terrestrial sources.
...
BY FAR a better critique of space mining than anything in this article.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline Asteroza

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #10 on: 09/14/2022 03:01 am »
The biggest problem with asteroid mining is that there is no economic justification for doing it.  Name a resource you can get from asteroids that is in significant demand that is NOT cheaper to acquire from terrestrial sources.
...
BY FAR a better critique of space mining than anything in this article.

Isn't the stereotypical response something something platinum group metals (but not platinum)?

Offline sdsds

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #11 on: 09/14/2022 03:28 am »
Economical transportability to a specific destination isn't needed for something to be of value. Assets can have intrinsic value in situ. Certainly transport can add value. But it isn't even required for trade.

An Earth-bound example: Mister Gold owns an asset in a Swiss bank vault. Mister Silver owns an asset in a vault in Dallas, Texas. They can trade ownership without either asset being physically moved.

So too if Mister Aster has an asset in a vault orbiting 16 Psyche and Mister Terra has a dollar-denominated asset in a U.S. bank. Asking Mister Terra why he wants to own metal stored in Psyche orbit is a bit like asking Mr Gold why he wants to own metal stored in Switzerland.
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Offline mikelepage

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #12 on: 09/14/2022 03:57 am »
Economical transportability to a specific destination isn't needed for something to be of value. Assets can have intrinsic value in situ. Certainly transport can add value. But it isn't even required for trade.

An Earth-bound example: Mister Gold owns an asset in a Swiss bank vault. Mister Silver owns an asset in a vault in Dallas, Texas. They can trade ownership without either asset being physically moved.

So too if Mister Aster has an asset in a vault orbiting 16 Psyche and Mister Terra has a dollar-denominated asset in a U.S. bank. Asking Mister Terra why he wants to own metal stored in Psyche orbit is a bit like asking Mr Gold why he wants to own metal stored in Switzerland.

Interesting comparison, but I think it illustrates the opposite of what you're going for. The ability to trade assets without moving them around Earth presumes that the cost of moving such assets is minute compared to the value of the asset. Given the (current) absurdity of a bank vault on Psyche, I might as well sell you land rights to the planet around Proxima Centauri.

Actually, aren't there already companies selling land on the moon? The deeds from which people take with an appropriately sized grain of regolith. I'm not sure what the legal terminology is, but I assume most property law has something along the lines of "reasonable capacity to liquidate assets".


Offline Vultur

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #13 on: 09/14/2022 10:14 pm »
If space mining is not economically practical, it won't be done.

If it becomes economically practical, it seems that it almost by definition must improve human well-being by increasing the amount of resources available.

The economy is interconnected. Just because people in country X don't have direct access to space doesn't mean that increasing the total pool of resources available won't lower costs for them too.

Offline Phil Stooke

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #14 on: 09/14/2022 10:44 pm »
Very peculiar that the article doesn't mention the damage that resource extraction does on Earth.  Here we are, busily poisoning ourselves and the whole biosphere through resource extraction when there are (potentially) resources to be had from places without biospheres to pollute.  How is it not ethical to explore opportunities to fulfill our need for resources from those sources?  I am personally doubtful it will happen but it can't be called unethical to try it.   

Online Robotbeat

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #15 on: 09/15/2022 01:35 am »
The biggest problem with asteroid mining is that there is no economic justification for doing it.  Name a resource you can get from asteroids that is in significant demand that is NOT cheaper to acquire from terrestrial sources.
...
BY FAR a better critique of space mining than anything in this article.

Isn't the stereotypical response something something platinum group metals (but not platinum)?
I mean, yes, that might be theoretically feasible.

...however, platinum group metals mining is only like $25 billion per year (and that's somewhat inflated at the moment). Compare that to global telecommunications (broadband internet and mobile phones) which is like $2 trillion per year.

Platinum group metals are small potatoes in terms of "total addressable market" compared to telecommunications.
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To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline laszlo

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #16 on: 09/15/2022 10:57 am »
Very peculiar that the article doesn't mention the damage that resource extraction does on Earth.  Here we are, busily poisoning ourselves and the whole biosphere through resource extraction when there are (potentially) resources to be had from places without biospheres to pollute.  How is it not ethical to explore opportunities to fulfill our need for resources from those sources?  I am personally doubtful it will happen but it can't be called unethical to try it.   

Actually, it does, explicitly and in terms very similar to yours as I pointed out above. Here's the quote from the second half of the article again for those who missed it the first time.

Quote
On the flip side of questions about whether it is ethical to mine asteroids is the question of whether it is ethical to leave a vast store of resources untouched. Resources that would be useful for things like green energy and large-scale agriculture.

Asteroid resources are unlikely to harbour life, meanwhile the only planetary body with known life in the Solar System, Earth, continues to be exploited. Weighing these ethical issues may become necessary in the face of climate change and ecosystem collapse. Planetary scientist Philip Metzger argues space mining will allow solutions to Earth’s increasing energy demands that are not currently feasible, such as beaming solar energy via microwave to Earth.

Offline Danderman

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #17 on: 09/26/2022 11:21 pm »
Of course, the solution to the "problem" addressed in the OP would be the establishment of space mining patents. This would provide an economic incentive for reconnaissance of the asteroids, but not requires billions of dollars.

Offline sdsds

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #18 on: 09/26/2022 11:34 pm »
Of course, the solution to the "problem" addressed in the OP would be the establishment of space mining patents. This would provide an economic incentive for reconnaissance of the asteroids, but not requires billions of dollars.

Would you please expand on that idea a bit? Patents are in modern times regarded as protection for intellectual property, linked to invention. Or perhaps you intend it in the sense of Letters patent?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letters_patent_(United_Kingdom)
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Offline Danderman

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #19 on: 09/27/2022 01:30 am »
Of course, the solution to the "problem" addressed in the OP would be the establishment of space mining patents. This would provide an economic incentive for reconnaissance of the asteroids, but not requires billions of dollars.

Would you please expand on that idea a bit? Patents are in modern times regarded as protection for intellectual property, linked to invention. Or perhaps you intend it in the sense of Letters patent?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letters_patent_(United_Kingdom)

Mining patents are intellectual property claims concerning location of ore bodies. These are issued in the US to prospectors.

Mining patents can be fungible, ie they can be transferred. So a company can generate near term cash exploring asteroids.

Offline LMT

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #20 on: 10/03/2022 12:53 am »
Very peculiar that the article doesn't mention the damage that resource extraction does on Earth. 

Space mining is clean mining.
« Last Edit: 10/03/2022 12:55 am by LMT »

Online deadman1204

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #21 on: 11/09/2022 09:04 pm »
Very peculiar that the article doesn't mention the damage that resource extraction does on Earth.  Here we are, busily poisoning ourselves and the whole biosphere through resource extraction when there are (potentially) resources to be had from places without biospheres to pollute.  How is it not ethical to explore opportunities to fulfill our need for resources from those sources?  I am personally doubtful it will happen but it can't be called unethical to try it.   
The trouble is that the costs of mining and such are shared across the world, while the benefits are held by those doing the mining. There is no legal framework in most of the world to make a miner/polluter pay the extrinsic costs of their actions (pollution, climate change, habitat destruction). So we all pay it

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #22 on: 11/24/2022 02:07 pm »
Isn't the stereotypical response something something platinum group metals...

Well, that and crack cocaine.

  Elon Musk is on record saying that  pure crack cocaine in LEO would not be commercially retrievable.

[I'm 2L2L Elon's actual statement, but this is a commonly held view that he really said this.]
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #23 on: 11/24/2022 02:39 pm »
Very peculiar that the article doesn't mention the damage that resource extraction does on Earth.  Here we are, busily poisoning ourselves and the whole biosphere through resource extraction when there are (potentially) resources to be had from places without biospheres to pollute.  How is it not ethical to explore opportunities to fulfill our need for resources from those sources?  I am personally doubtful it will happen but it can't be called unethical to try it.   
The trouble is that the costs of mining and such are shared across the world, while the benefits are held by those doing the mining. There is no legal framework in most of the world to make a miner/polluter pay the extrinsic costs of their actions (pollution, climate change, habitat destruction). So we all pay it

Along these lines is the CHM principle, The Common Heritage of Mankind

From:

https://wealthofthecommons.org/essay/common-heritage-mankind-bold-doctrine-kept-within-strict-boundaries

Quote
The “common heritage of mankind” is an ethical concept and a general concept of international law. It establishes that some localities belong to all humanity and that their resources are available for everyone’s use and benefit, taking into account future generations and the needs of developing countries.

CHM principles have been suggested to apply for mankind's colonization of space:

https://www.jindalsocietyofinternationallaw.com/post/unpacking-common-heritage-of-mankind-in-sea-and-space

Quote
In Article 11 of the Moon Treaty, the ‘common heritage of mankind’ language surfaces, and the article states, "the Moon's and its natural resources are the common heritage of mankind and states may explore and use the moon without discrimination”

Leaving aside the question of the humano-centrist idea of the CHM, [They didn't check with the lizard people of Arcturus.] there are some Earth huggers who claim that there should be no mining of any celestial body, but that those barren landscapes should be left pristine and free of human presence.

Here's a goofy point of view as recent as May of 2019:

https://www.livescience.com/65472-scientists-propose-solar-system-national-park.html

Quote
Space Mining Could Ruin Our Solar System If We Don't Establish Protected Places Now, Researchers Warn

It is hard to think that these people are following the science:

Quote
...humans could deplete the solar system of all of its water, iron and other mineable resources in a matter of centuries — potentially leaving the solar system a dried-up wasteland in as little as 500 years.

Good thing the Moon Treaty was not ratified by the US.  While I am of the opinion that the US should withdraw from the OST as well, I am also aware of the other side of that opinion. 

So there's that.

The Impakter article is of no pragmatic utility.

But here's my question. 

I'm trying to "build" a huge ring station over on another thread.  The main structure, not yet finalized, will use millions of tons of 316L steel, as currently envisioned.  One of my contacts at TransAstra is of the opinion that mining the NEA's for volatiles for use as propellant will be a profitable enterprise in the foreseeable future, where many flights between the cis-lunar space and Mars become common. 

If asteroids can be mined for metals using some variant of the STR asteroid bag methodology, they will also leave behind huge blobs of slag. 

Will these slag blobs accrete naturally?  We don't have to worry about it yet, but at what point will asteroid waste become a flight hazard?
« Last Edit: 11/24/2022 02:40 pm by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline oldAtlas_Eguy

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #24 on: 11/24/2022 05:37 pm »
Anything in space that has been liberated into a manageable and shippable size has value in space. So most of the slag will be used as well just for it's value as a micro as well as a not so micro meteorite shield and as a radiation shield. This slag is not the best at these two tasks but its use for these two tasks in a non moving station frees up more valuable materials for better tasks. Like use in ships/transports.

Thus some may be left but could have some value as generic building material  to surround the smelter stations so that the small number of workers have also radiation shielding even though they are there for EVA type tasks for very specialized repair or inspection tasks. This enclosing slag/construction blocks would make a mining cube that surrounds a prospective asteroid for mining such that escaping pieces cannot become a navigation or other risk hazard. In other words the slag becomes the containment bag. once the asteroid is mined of its valuable minerals. what is left in the same orbit as the original asteroid is a man made set of block structure that is hollow inside. This could have some interesting value in and of itself as a station or colony depending on size.

ANY MASS IN SPACE IS NOT WORTHLESS! Use your imagination and be innovative.

Offline Redclaws

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #25 on: 11/24/2022 05:59 pm »
Anything in space that has been liberated into a manageable and shippable size has value in space. So most of the slag will be used as well just for it's value as a micro as well as a not so micro meteorite shield and as a radiation shield. This slag is not the best at these two tasks but its use for these two tasks in a non moving station frees up more valuable materials for better tasks. Like use in ships/transports.

Thus some may be left but could have some value as generic building material  to surround the smelter stations so that the small number of workers have also radiation shielding even though they are there for EVA type tasks for very specialized repair or inspection tasks. This enclosing slag/construction blocks would make a mining cube that surrounds a prospective asteroid for mining such that escaping pieces cannot become a navigation or other risk hazard. In other words the slag becomes the containment bag. once the asteroid is mined of its valuable minerals. what is left in the same orbit as the original asteroid is a man made set of block structure that is hollow inside. This could have some interesting value in and of itself as a station or colony depending on size.

ANY MASS IN SPACE IS NOT WORTHLESS! Use your imagination and be innovative.

You have to enclose it and move it to the desired locations.  Both will be very, very tough.

Offline lamontagne

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #26 on: 11/24/2022 06:06 pm »
I would argue against the proposition that asteroid mining cannot profit to all by mentioning the existence of shares and of pensions funds.  Shareholders, sometimes pension funds that pay out to their members interesting sums, can spread the profit among many.  I expect that whoever wrote the article, if he is even moderately wealthy, gets some revenue from mining.  By extension, he would also get significant revenue from asteroid mining.

Everyone wants 6%+ growth in their investments and pensions, but they don't really want to know where this growth comes from...



Online Robotbeat

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #27 on: 11/24/2022 06:16 pm »
Taxes on profits are partly what allow the benefits of mining to be shared.
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Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #28 on: 11/24/2022 06:26 pm »
... ANY MASS IN SPACE IS NOT WORTHLESS! Use your imagination and be innovative.

I am fond of saying "Mass is your friend", but the choir hasn't yet learned the lyrics.

"Let the slag be the bag."  I like it. 
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline lamontagne

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #29 on: 11/24/2022 06:35 pm »
The author seems to take lightly the problems of the resources of the sea, but overfishing is a far worse problem than asteroid mining!

And the coming mining of the seabed might better be done by an alternative in space.

Offline oldAtlas_Eguy

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #30 on: 11/24/2022 07:04 pm »
Anything in space that has been liberated into a manageable and shippable size has value in space. So most of the slag will be used as well just for it's value as a micro as well as a not so micro meteorite shield and as a radiation shield. This slag is not the best at these two tasks but its use for these two tasks in a non moving station frees up more valuable materials for better tasks. Like use in ships/transports.

Thus some may be left but could have some value as generic building material  to surround the smelter stations so that the small number of workers have also radiation shielding even though they are there for EVA type tasks for very specialized repair or inspection tasks. This enclosing slag/construction blocks would make a mining cube that surrounds a prospective asteroid for mining such that escaping pieces cannot become a navigation or other risk hazard. In other words the slag becomes the containment bag. once the asteroid is mined of its valuable minerals. what is left in the same orbit as the original asteroid is a man made set of block structure that is hollow inside. This could have some interesting value in and of itself as a station or colony depending on size.

ANY MASS IN SPACE IS NOT WORTHLESS! Use your imagination and be innovative.

You have to enclose it and move it to the desired locations.  Both will be very, very tough.
If it is small then it is easier to move the asteroid than the equipment to do the mining and ore purification steps. Else don't move the asteroid but the plant to the asteroid do the mining ship the refined ore away and then just leave the husk of slag in same orbit as the original asteroid. The decision is one of costs. Is it cheaper to move the whole asteroid or the plant out to the asteroid. In either case you still use the same slag bag methods. Just that for the small ones at a centralized location  colossally large slag bags that can be opened and closed where multiple small asteroids are processed/mined whose total slag then constructs more bags so even more asteroids can be mined at once. As well as using some of it to make rotating sphere habitats out of the slag. A mining location could end being a very large colony with many "towns"/spheres housing 10s of thousands of persons at short distances.

Offline punder

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #31 on: 11/24/2022 07:33 pm »
Very peculiar that the article doesn't mention the damage that resource extraction does on Earth.  Here we are, busily poisoning ourselves and the whole biosphere through resource extraction when there are (potentially) resources to be had from places without biospheres to pollute.  How is it not ethical to explore opportunities to fulfill our need for resources from those sources?  I am personally doubtful it will happen but it can't be called unethical to try it.   
The trouble is that the costs of mining and such are shared across the world, while the benefits are held by those doing the mining. There is no legal framework in most of the world to make a miner/polluter pay the extrinsic costs of their actions (pollution, climate change, habitat destruction). So we all pay it
We all benefit from these activities as well. As one of the more trivial benefits, consider the ability to post your thoughts to potentially billions of people worldwide in an instant, and consider whether this ability would be possible without the mining and processing of metals.

[this is not a criticism of you, deadman1204] Academics love to opine on the hypothetical immorality of economic activity. They do this from their secure, comfortable, privileged positions based almost entirely on the capacity of that exact same economic activity to create the conditions under which their chosen professions are even imaginable, much less viable.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #32 on: 11/25/2022 11:12 am »
I would argue against the proposition that asteroid mining cannot profit to all by mentioning the existence of shares and of pensions funds.  Shareholders, sometimes pension funds that pay out to their members ...

Well, yeah, but:  The thing about CHM is that people and nations are rewarded for doing nothing, and the reward is enforceable by law.  Most capitalists are against appropriation of their property, which is what profits are in a fundamental sense.  True, too many capitalists take the position that legitimate governmental taxation schemes are also theft of property, and deliberately ignore the benefits of proper, well regulated government, and international legal systems.   The CHM crowd deliberately ignores the idea of individuals, and subsumes individual rights under an intentionally poor rendition of the idea of collective rights.

I agree that some of the asteroid mining wealth will "trickle down" to the poorer nations.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #33 on: 11/25/2022 12:02 pm »
You have to enclose it and move it to the desired locations.  Both will be very, very tough.
If it is small then it is easier to move the asteroid than the equipment to do the mining and ore purification steps. Else don't move the asteroid but the plant to the asteroid do the mining ship the refined ore away and then just leave the husk of slag in same orbit as the original asteroid.

 The decision is one of [1.] costs. Is it cheaper to move the whole asteroid or the plant out to the asteroid[?] In either case you still use the same slag bag methods.
[2.] Just that for the small ones at a centralized location  colossally large slag bags that can be opened and closed where multiple small asteroids are processed/mined whose total slag then constructs more bags so even more asteroids can be mined at once.

[3.] As well as using some of it to make rotating sphere habitats out of the slag. A mining location could end being a very large colony with many "towns"/spheres housing 10s of thousands of persons at short distances.

First, that part I bolded?  You've got some grammatical thing going on, and I can't parse the meaning of your sentence.

1. "Costs"  I typically use the term "costs" in a loose fashion.  Costs could be money, time, delta-v and so forth, but yeah, mission trades are intended to find the least cost of a mission.

2. Well, you are viewing asteroids as acorns on the forest floor, where the "cost" [there's that term again] of picking them up and putting them in a bag is easy to do.  Think rather in terms that the acorns would be scattered many miles apart.

Quote from: NASA
The average distance between the asteroids would be about 100,000 miles

https://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/venus/a10537.html

A quick search didn't find an average asteroid size, but it is surely much more than average acorn size.  I'm guessing about
one acorn every square mile? Point being that collecting the "small ones at a centralized location" is a non-trivial task.

3. Unless one gets an iron asteroid, the mass of slag vastly exceeds the mass of the metals processed.   The amount of metal required to bag that slag, in the case of my ring station is a fraction of the mass/volume of the slag required.  Maybe I'll do that calc.

Fun video comparing asteroid sizes:

Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #34 on: 11/25/2022 12:32 pm »
The trouble is that the costs of mining and such are shared across the world, while the benefits are held by those doing the mining. There is no legal framework in most of the world to make a miner/polluter pay the extrinsic costs of their actions ...
We all benefit from these activities as well.

Academics love to opine on the hypothetical immorality of economic activity.

Well, first, speaking metaphorically, it seems clear that academia [arts and humanities mostly] [A&H] has been fairly corrupted by the woke mind virus.  The STEM community is too myopic to see beyond the test tube.  The antipathy of committed members of each tribe to the other has resulted in A&H academia minimizing STEM studies, and STEM academian minimizing A&H studies.

While the "costs of mining", loosely understood to include the environmental and social costs, are shared the world over, it is still the case that the financial rewards go to those who take and overcome the risks of failure.  In addition, the relative wealth of the Third World has grown immensely over the last three or four decades.  True, the wealth of the elites has grown even faster, but consider that the dragon's gold is not circulating in the economy when it is tied up in paper.  [PM me if this is inscrutable.]

Bucky Fuller's calculations are suspect, since he doen't offer them, but the principle he mentions holds.  The accounting system used by our economies could better approximate the costs of resource extraction and use:

Quote
In Critical Path, Bucky cites Francois de Chardenedes' view that petroleum, from the standpoint of its replacement cost out of our current energy "budget" (essentially incoming solar radiation), had cost nature "over a million dollars" per U.S. gallon (US$300,000/L) to produce. From this point of view its use as a transportation fuel by people commuting to work represents a huge net loss compared to their earnings.

http://theoildrum.com/node/5113

[Edit, 12-12-22:

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1602278477234728960

Just for "context".
« Last Edit: 12/12/2022 12:15 pm by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Online Robotbeat

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #35 on: 11/25/2022 01:15 pm »
Look, I think it’s fair to say most people are exhausted with the sort of hall monitor stuff and general anti-progress attitude in some areas, but would it be okay *not* to bring in hyper-politically-charged phrases like “woke mind virus” to the conversation?

It’s bad enough we have to have ridiculous articles like spawned this thread, I don’t want to have the polar opposite as well.
« Last Edit: 11/25/2022 01:17 pm by Robotbeat »
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Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #36 on: 11/25/2022 02:53 pm »
It’s bad enough we have to have ridiculous articles like spawned this thread, I don’t want to have the polar opposite as well.

I thought Bucky Fuller made a good point.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline lamontagne

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #37 on: 11/25/2022 03:27 pm »
It’s bad enough we have to have ridiculous articles like spawned this thread, I don’t want to have the polar opposite as well.

I thought Bucky Fuller made a good point.
He certainly did.  And he didn't need to use a meaningless expression like 'woke mind virus' to make it :-)

Great summary of Fuller's ideas, BTW.  That's for linking to it.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #38 on: 11/25/2022 05:10 pm »
meaningless expression

Well, everybody's a critic.  And speaking of "meaningless expressions":

Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline lamontagne

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #39 on: 11/25/2022 05:30 pm »
meaningless expression

Well, everybody's a critic.  And speaking of "meaningless expressions":


Pink Floyd soundtrack is usually a good choice. 
So I guess there really is no Space Mining problem no One is Talking About, and we might as well move on to more fruitful debates.

Offline TrevorMonty

You have to enclose it and move it to the desired locations.  Both will be very, very tough.
If it is small then it is easier to move the asteroid than the equipment to do the mining and ore purification steps. Else don't move the asteroid but the plant to the asteroid do the mining ship the refined ore away and then just leave the husk of slag in same orbit as the original asteroid.

 The decision is one of [1.] costs. Is it cheaper to move the whole asteroid or the plant out to the asteroid[?] In either case you still use the same slag bag methods.
[2.] Just that for the small ones at a centralized location  colossally large slag bags that can be opened and closed where multiple small asteroids are processed/mined whose total slag then constructs more bags so even more asteroids can be mined at once.

[3.] As well as using some of it to make rotating sphere habitats out of the slag. A mining location could end being a very large colony with many "towns"/spheres housing 10s of thousands of persons at short distances.

First, that part I bolded?  You've got some grammatical thing going on, and I can't parse the meaning of your sentence.

1. "Costs"  I typically use the term "costs" in a loose fashion.  Costs could be money, time, delta-v and so forth, but yeah, mission trades are intended to find the least cost of a mission.

2. Well, you are viewing asteroids as acorns on the forest floor, where the "cost" [there's that term again] of picking them up and putting them in a bag is easy to do.  Think rather in terms that the acorns would be scattered many miles apart.

Quote from: NASA
The average distance between the asteroids would be about 100,000 miles

https://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/venus/a10537.html

A quick search didn't find an average asteroid size, but it is surely much more than average acorn size.  I'm guessing about
one acorn every square mile? Point being that collecting the "small ones at a centralized location" is a non-trivial task.

3. Unless one gets an iron asteroid, the mass of slag vastly exceeds the mass of the metals processed.   The amount of metal required to bag that slag, in the case of my ring station is a fraction of the mass/volume of the slag required.  Maybe I'll do that calc.

Fun video comparing asteroid sizes:


Shielding doesn't need to be attached to rotating body can be is stationary outer shell. This has two advantages, rotating structural load is considerably lower and out shell needs next to nothing in structural strength as there are no significant forces on it.

Mass of shielding material could exceed mass of rotating habitat.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #41 on: 11/25/2022 07:28 pm »
Shielding doesn't need to be attached to rotating body can be is stationary outer shell. This has two advantages, rotating structural load is considerably lower and out shell needs next to nothing in structural strength as there are no significant forces on it.

Mass of shielding material could exceed mass of rotating habitat.

The stationary outer shell has its own disadvantages.  It will need its own stationkeeping so as not to bump into the ring station.  Remember, EML1 is not stable and stationkeeping will be required and the ring station will have material and people moving around inside.  In addition, it will require its own structure to support itself.  Finally, it does not protect all the habitable areas.

Check out my design in the ring station thread.  As to the mass, a BOTE suggests that the station outweighs the regolith shielding by 1,000 to one.  Maybe more.
« Last Edit: 11/25/2022 07:28 pm by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #42 on: 11/25/2022 07:32 pm »

So I guess there really is no Space Mining problem no One is Talking About, and we might as well move on to more fruitful debates.

Even worse, that dang asteroid took out my station a few hours before taking out my planet.

On the plus side, I've been crushing on Liza Strike for years.

Edit, per instructions from the snappy comeback department:

On the plus side, I've been crushing on Clare Torry for years.

« Last Edit: 06/12/2023 06:00 pm by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline lamontagne

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #43 on: 11/25/2022 08:04 pm »

So I guess there really is no Space Mining problem no One is Talking About, and we might as well move on to more fruitful debates.

Even worse, that dang asteroid took out my station a few hours before taking out my planet.

On the plus side, I've been crushing on Liza Strike for years.
It's in EML-1, you really are an unlucky guy, should have survived.  And that's why I'm moving to Mars, thank you very much.

Offline Lampyridae

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #44 on: 05/31/2023 09:31 am »
Taxes on profits are partly what allow the benefits of mining to be shared.

A number of small nations earn quite a handsome incoming on shipping because they have favourable flagging rules. So many ships are flagged in Liberia. (Checking:) Yes, one third of the world's shipping tonnage is flagged by this tiny little African nation. 4311 ships, according to this: https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/merchant-marine/
« Last Edit: 05/31/2023 09:31 am by Lampyridae »

Online Robotbeat

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #45 on: 06/03/2023 06:15 am »
Taxes on profits are partly what allow the benefits of mining to be shared.

A number of small nations earn quite a handsome incoming on shipping because they have favourable flagging rules. So many ships are flagged in Liberia. (Checking:) Yes, one third of the world's shipping tonnage is flagged by this tiny little African nation. 4311 ships, according to this: https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/merchant-marine/
Unless you’re actually gonna launch rockets from those nations, it won’t work the same way. And launching rockets from them is gonna be pretty tough due to export restrictions.
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Offline Twark_Main

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #46 on: 07/10/2023 07:39 pm »
Isn't the stereotypical response something something platinum group metals...

Well, that and crack cocaine.

  Elon Musk is on record saying that  pure crack cocaine in LEO would not be commercially retrievable.

[I'm 2L2L Elon's actual statement, but this is a commonly held view that he really said this.]

Elon definitely said this, back in 2014.

https://web.archive.org/web/20150822234427/http://shitelonsays.com/transcript/elon-musk-at-mits-aeroastro-centennial-part-5-of-6-2014-10-24



A couple extracts from the contemporaneous NSF thread:

That completely contradicts what he said earlier about one-way trips:

Quote from: Elon Musk
I think it ends up being a moot point because you want to bring the spaceship back. These spaceships are expensive, okay, they're hard to build. You can't just leave them there. So whether or not people want to come back or not, is kind of - like, they can just jump on if they want, but we need the spaceship back.

If colonists can just jump on, why can't they pack the return vehicle with goods? If you were on Mars and you had the choice of sending the vehicle back empty, because no-one wanted to leave this week, or with goods that will let you buy stuff on Earth wouldn't you be packing the ship with everything you could find? The cost of transport is essentially zero because the ship was going back anyway. That's exactly the argument he just made for why one-way trips are a moot point, why is it suddenly invalid now that mining is the question?

Regarding the crack cocaine answer: Elon just wants to avoid the impression that we are going to mars to strip mine it of its valuable resources because we have "used up" earth. Which is of course silly, but would probably be the main criticism of the mars colonisation effort by environmentalists.

From the last interview on aeon it seems that Elon is very much aware of the danger from radical environmentalists: Not everyone loves humanity. Either explicitly or implicitly, some people seem to think that humans are a blight on the Earth’s surface.. So he wants to bring the sane environmentalists on board by emphasising the "backup the biosphere" narrative.
« Last Edit: 07/10/2023 07:46 pm by Twark_Main »

Offline Pipcard

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #47 on: 10/02/2023 03:05 am »
"Space mining/settlement only leads to wealth inequality" is a trope of dystopian sci-fi such as The Expanse (which I feel there is an oversaturation of), and a product of zero-sum thinking.

A video from Kurzgesagt promoting asteroid mining as an alternative to environment-damaging resource extraction on Earth got some backlash from a certain crowd of anti-capitalist environmentalists who believe the extraction itself is unethical (even when there is no native life to harm), or that the technology is impossible, and would prefer something called "degrowth," or reducing consumption to stay within "planetary boundaries."

Degrowth supporters claim that standards of living in the developed world "would require multiple Earths (of resources)" to be sustainable, citing statistics by the Global Footprint Network. However, the GFN's examples of '1-Earth living' tend to be countries where the majority live in abject poverty.

https://twitter.com/Kurz_Gesagt/status/1705598028495696111/
« Last Edit: 10/02/2023 03:29 am by Pipcard »

Offline Twark_Main

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #48 on: 10/02/2023 05:00 am »
\However, the GFN's examples of '1-Earth living' tend to be countries where the majority live in abject poverty.

This is more a statement about how "poverty" is defined (and who benefits from that definition) instead of a statement about these countries.

If a nation has 100% sustainability with everyone growing their local food and supplying their own humanitarian needs efficiently using local resources....  the banking/financial world would define that as "poverty," because all they care about is GDP. GDP only measures the quantity of mercantile trade, not the level of happiness or sustainability.


The ultimate aim is to iterate toward a society that doesn't self-destruct in the absence of exponential growth. Even space colonization doesn't provide exponential growth in resources, so ultimately space travel can't solve the fundamental economic problem of obligatory non-zero growth.

Offline lamontagne

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #49 on: 10/02/2023 05:29 am »
People just don't understand mining and resource availability.   
There's nothing wrong with degrowth.  Just reducing thermal waste woud degrowth our planetary resource usage by about 60%. Recycling also reduces the use of prime materials.  Most lead, more and more steel and a lot of 'our' aluminum is recycled.
I am not a great fan of mining space to return to Earth.  Probably 99% of what we mine is rock, glass precursors, steel ore, aluminum ore and fertilizers anyway. Plus coal, oil and gas. None of those will ever come from space. 
Mining space to be used in space, yes.

Smaller houses and cars would go a long way in reducing resource utilization with no real impapct on the standard of living.

Offline lamontagne

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #50 on: 10/02/2023 05:36 am »
A single gold deposit in Northern Quebec, at Malartic, has probably delived more gold than space mining will ever do.  Literally billions of dollars per year.
The most common aluminum smelter at 250 000 tonnes per year, sell 300 millions dollars a year of aluminum.  There are hundreds of these on Earth.  At 68 millions tonnes per year, aluminum is a 88 billion per year dollars market.  And that's primary aluminum.  It's not products yet. 
Space mining is a niche, and probably not a very valuable one at that.

Offline Pipcard

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #51 on: 10/02/2023 04:39 pm »
The degrowth movement would probably cancel the entire space program (and the aerospace industry, or even all industries including agriculture that feeds billions of people) if it got into power. More moderate versions would at most allow only occasional Earth observation and communications satellites while deeming everything else unnecessary.

https://twitter.com/ClimateBen/status/1663983360887144465
« Last Edit: 10/02/2023 08:13 pm by Pipcard »

Offline lamontagne

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #52 on: 10/02/2023 04:45 pm »
The degrowth movement would probably cancel the entire space program if it got into power. Or at most allow only Earth observation and communications satellites while deeming everything else unnecessary.


Oh, I fully expect that many people in the degrowth movement would be happy to be rid of humans altogether.
But that doesn't mean that some elements don't have merit.
I see degrowth as another kind of conservatism.  It is the conservation movement, after all.  What could be more conservative than that?
« Last Edit: 10/02/2023 04:45 pm by lamontagne »

Offline Pipcard

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #53 on: 10/02/2023 08:15 pm »
The degrowth movement would probably cancel the entire space program if it got into power. Or at most allow only Earth observation and communications satellites while deeming everything else unnecessary.


Oh, I fully expect that many people in the degrowth movement would be happy to be rid of humans altogether.
But that doesn't mean that some elements don't have merit.
I see degrowth as another kind of conservatism.  It is the conservation movement, after all.  What could be more conservative than that?
Degrowth goes farther than mere conservation. It wouldn’t just say asteroid mining is unnecessary, but all spaceflight. It could ban all forms of transport faster than a horse and buggy.

https://twitter.com/JeffAndDonkeys/status/1598478030250426368

https://twitter.com/JeffAndDonkeys/status/1623844092361814018

Offline Twark_Main

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #54 on: 10/03/2023 05:07 am »
The degrowth movement would probably...

Degrowth goes farther than mere conservation. It wouldn’t just say...

Let's not put words in an entire group of people's mouths based on one tweet.

The tweet in question doesn't even propose that we should abolish rockets. It merely points out the fact (which should be highly uncontroversial) that we don't need rockets in the same way we need a functioning ecosystem.


We should distinguish between (for lack of a better term) Strong Degrowth and Weak Degrowth. Strong Degrowth is indistinguishable from knee-jerk Luddite-ism, and is rightly scorned. This is what you decry on Twitter, and I agree with you 100%.

Weak Degrowth, however, is merely the unavoidable observation that we need to design an economy that doesn't depend on exponential growth, because even space colonization (with its wimpy t3 scaling, ie a future light cone expanding at c in all directions instantly developing all resources it touches) is still mathematically incapable of providing enough resources to "feed" an exponentially-growing system (with its tN scaling  :o ).

I consider myself an advocate of Weak Degrowth. Strong Degrowth is indeed absurd, and we shouldn't waste any off-topic discussion on such a silly notion IMO.
« Last Edit: 10/03/2023 05:31 am by Twark_Main »

Offline ZachF

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #55 on: 11/26/2023 03:42 pm »
Nah, degrowth is trash.

It’s mostly a way for rich trust funders to greenwash pulling the ladders up behind them.
« Last Edit: 11/26/2023 06:27 pm by ZachF »
artist, so take opinions expressed above with a well-rendered grain of salt...
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Offline lamontagne

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #56 on: 12/12/2023 03:48 pm »
The degrowth movement would probably...

Degrowth goes farther than mere conservation. It wouldn’t just say...

Let's not put words in an entire group of people's mouths based on one tweet.

The tweet in question doesn't even propose that we should abolish rockets. It merely points out the fact (which should be highly uncontroversial) that we don't need rockets in the same way we need a functioning ecosystem.


We should distinguish between (for lack of a better term) Strong Degrowth and Weak Degrowth. Strong Degrowth is indistinguishable from knee-jerk Luddite-ism, and is rightly scorned. This is what you decry on Twitter, and I agree with you 100%.

Weak Degrowth, however, is merely the unavoidable observation that we need to design an economy that doesn't depend on exponential growth, because even space colonization (with its wimpy t3 scaling, ie a future light cone expanding at c in all directions instantly developing all resources it touches) is still mathematically incapable of providing enough resources to "feed" an exponentially-growing system (with its tN scaling  :o ).

I consider myself an advocate of Weak Degrowth. Strong Degrowth is indeed absurd, and we shouldn't waste any off-topic discussion on such a silly notion IMO.
I have become enamored of the logistic function, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logistic_function, that seems to me a much better model for understanding future expansion into space.
Exponential growth seems to be a fallacy, over time.  Systems rather follow the logistic function, that I see as a kind of punctuated equilibrium.  Yes there are exponential growth phases, but overall growth is resource limited, and living systems naturally optimize towards the best possible use of available resources, rather than super high growth followed by catastrophe.
Not that it doesn't happen, just that it's not the most likely outcome.
Verhulst provided some nice proofs, and as the function has been discovered again and again, it seems like a good model for many things.

Birth control and recycling seem like simple solutions to the growth problem, and are already happening.  I see this as a standard control problem with initial overcompensation that provides feedback to adjust the system


 

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #57 on: 12/16/2023 02:16 pm »
I'd be inclined to agree with Twark's suggestion of "Weak Degrowth" 

I've often advised to walk gently on the planet.  Exponential, unrestrained growth is a cancer.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Ciber

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #58 on: 01/16/2024 01:56 pm »
"Degrowth" is a philosophy fundamentally opposed to the idea of doing stuff in space. As such, continued discussion of the subject has no place in a thread who's topic is synonymous with "how should we do stuff in space".

Offline lamontagne

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #59 on: 01/16/2024 02:06 pm »
"Degrowth" is a philosophy fundamentally opposed to the idea of doing stuff in space. As such, continued discussion of the subject has no place in a thread who's topic is synonymous with "how should we do stuff in space".
Degrowth is a very general term.  It would be better to present a case on how space exploration can continue with degrowth, rather than ignoring it.

It's pretty simple to share in the wealth of space mining:  Buy shares in the company, or encourage your pension fund to buy shares or even your government.
What, you say, there are no shares available?  Perhaps it's because the risk is really high, or the perceived payback very low.  Likely both.

Degrowth is unavoidable if population starts going down.  It's not necessarily a philosophy (although it is to some) but a very likely outcome of the next few decades.  However, it doesn't mean to all people who study degrowth that this means we must all live in poverty and misery.  I expect it's even possible to have degrowth in population, but growth in wealth.

Online Eer

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #60 on: 01/16/2024 02:13 pm »
"Degrowth" is a philosophy fundamentally opposed to the idea of doing stuff in space. As such, continued discussion of the subject has no place in a thread who's topic is synonymous with "how should we do stuff in space".
On the other hand, bounding unconstrained economic externalities by some means would be squarely within the remit? Clean up your own mess, play nicely with others, don’t do harm to others you don’t want them to do to you… these seem to be worthy advice to any enterprise based on sharing resources and fairly allocating them, as opposed to get what you can before someone tries to stop you.

It’s too early in the exploration/exploitation/ colonialism cycle to hope for much in the way of sustainability and equity (imagine we are at the beginning of a 100,000 year phase of development). But it’s not too early to discuss better ways to avoid the tragedy of the commons.
From "The Rhetoric of Interstellar Flight", by Paul Gilster, March 10, 2011: We’ll build a future in space one dogged step at a time, and when asked how long humanity will struggle before reaching the stars, we’ll respond, “As long as it takes.”

Offline Asteroid Mining ideas

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Re: The Problems With Space Mining No One Is Talking About
« Reply #61 on: 04/21/2024 04:15 pm »
There are at least two "suspected" Near Earth M-Type Asteroids. A 100-ton iron-nickel slab from M-Type Asteroid containing rare heavy metals could land on Earth independently (economically) and could easily generate $100-200 million in revenue. With evolving SpaceX technologies, it could possibly pay for a trip to a NEO asteroid.




Peer-reviewed article: "REVIEW ON QUARRYING METHODS SUITABLE FOR SPACE MINING MISSIONS"
https://jsm.gig.eu/journal-of-sustainable-mining/vol23/iss2/8/
ResearchGate copy:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/379572695_Review_on_quarrying_methods_suitable_for_space_mining_missions
« Last Edit: 05/02/2024 06:36 pm by Asteroid Mining ideas »

 

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