Author Topic: SpaceX working on food production for Mars?  (Read 13246 times)

Offline speedevil

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Re: SpaceX working on food production for Mars?
« Reply #20 on: 10/09/2018 09:30 pm »
Indoor farming is fine if you want salad, but so far I haven't seen any solutions that really offer realistic calories-per-area efficiency.  No one that I know of, for example, is growing corn or wheat indoors on a massive scale, and I'm not sure if doing so is even practical. I'm guessing that it will be quite a while before we can get common staple plants to provide the nutritional density of something like spirulina (no matter how terrible it actually tastes).
See above posts - 3kW/astronaut (continuous) is plausible for LED lighting, for limited bulk calories provided by potatos.
(or viewed another way, about 3% LED power -> human metabolism).

It is somewhat questionable you'd want to do this very early.
One synods food (26 months) for 5 people is between 1.6-3-10 tons (depending on if it's freeze dried energy bars, normal freeze dried rations, or frozen veg and nice stuff).

Once you have electricity up and running for fuel generation is probably a good time to think about doing initial 'production' greenhouse trials.
A power system capable of processing a thousand tons of propellant through ISRU needs to be around 500kW.
This is enough - if you divert even five percent of it is enough to feed around three-four people, in 150m^2 or so of potatoes.

Bulk calories are not at all out of the question. But, as a backup that might work for bulk calories, but is aimed at fresh nice stuff, would probably be more sane early on.

Offline Llian Rhydderch

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Re: SpaceX working on food production for Mars?
« Reply #21 on: 10/09/2018 10:35 pm »
The OP asked: "SpaceX working on food production for Mars?"

I have one firm data point.  Might be utterly outdated and worthless.  But might be of interest to some in this thread.

Kimbal Musk is a foodie, and is a chef, and the owner of a high-end Denver restaurant called "The Kitchen" , as well as some more casual restaurants.  He went to chefs school after he and Elon worked together on their first startup (Zip2) while Elon went on to stay in Silicon Valley and work on X.com/Paypal. All of his restaurants are advancing the "farm to table" vibe.  He's quite into it, and very passionate about it.

Kimbal Musk is also a board member of SpaceX.

I went to a (rare) talk Kimbal Musk gave at a University of Denver event on 23 Feb 2016.  (just looked up the email I sent to a friend; so know I have the date correct.)

I asked SpaceX board member Kimbal Musk a question in the Q&A specifically about this topic?  More or less:
Quote
"with his passion for farm to table food, and food prep, and agricultural production, and his passion about how integral these sorts of food experiences are to life...

"As a board member of SpaceX, what does you know about the thinking at SpaceX for ensuring that the early traveler's to Mars are going to benefit from this sort of philosophical approach to food growing, prep, and eating, even if bits of fresh food would be grown in indoor spaces?"

I don't recall his exact answer.  But it was clear to me that no such discussion/thinking was occurring that he was aware of.  And it's very hard to think how he, as a SpaceX board member, would not have heard something had it been going on inside SpaceX.

Of course, that was early 2016, before the IAC2016 rollout of the mongo ITS later in September, and before SpaceX had many people working on the whole next-generation launch vehicle and Mars project, or at least, much beyond Raptor development work and high-level ITS design/Mars mission design.

Was interesting to me.

Edit:  fixed typo
« Last Edit: 10/09/2018 10:37 pm by Llian Rhydderch »
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Offline KelvinZero

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Re: SpaceX working on food production for Mars?
« Reply #22 on: 10/10/2018 12:14 am »
Indoor farming is fine if you want salad, but so far I haven't seen any solutions that really offer realistic calories-per-area efficiency.  No one that I know of, for example, is growing corn or wheat indoors on a massive scale, and I'm not sure if doing so is even practical. I'm guessing that it will be quite a while before we can get common staple plants to provide the nutritional density of something like spirulina (no matter how terrible it actually tastes).
Some things are harder on earth: just like electric cars vs petrol cars. Electric has been adequate as transport for a technological civilisation for decades but still totally unrealistic here on earth when someone could just buy a petrol car.

Im not disputing that it will be quite a while though. Packed food is just so much easier and safer in the short term, and even makes good radiation shielding.

IMO Elon's brother will be doing a similar trick to SpaceX: Aim to make this product commercially successful here at home but use the vision of mars to get viral marketing and make it interesting.. probably with absolutely honest (but long term) intention. You can't really tell and it doesn't really matter if the tech is genuinely promising.

I personally find all this technology very interesting, both to colonise other worlds and to make our own cities more like mars bases, enclosed and sustainable without relying on nonrenewable resources from far away.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: SpaceX working on food production for Mars?
« Reply #23 on: 10/10/2018 03:08 am »
...Electric has been adequate as transport for a technological civilisation for decades but still totally unrealistic here on earth when someone could just buy a petrol car....
I don't know where the heck you're going with this analogy, but this is really wrong right now. It's not even close to "still totally unrealistic" to get an electric car. In fact, the total cost of ownership is about the same, possibly even lower. I own two electric cars and bought them each for $10,000 used. They're fantastic cars, and any premium I paid on them vs petrol is easily paid for by the amount I'm saving in gasoline, oil changes, brakes, and the time needed to do each of those.
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Offline KelvinZero

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Re: SpaceX working on food production for Mars?
« Reply #24 on: 10/10/2018 03:50 am »
...Electric has been adequate as transport for a technological civilisation for decades but still totally unrealistic here on earth when someone could just buy a petrol car....
I don't know where the heck you're going with this analogy, but this is really wrong right now. It's not even close to "still totally unrealistic" to get an electric car. In fact, the total cost of ownership is about the same, possibly even lower. I own two electric cars and bought them each for $10,000 used. They're fantastic cars, and any premium I paid on them vs petrol is easily paid for by the amount I'm saving in gasoline, oil changes, brakes, and the time needed to do each of those.
Don't be so jumpy. I can see my use of the word "still" was a bit ambiguous but you leapt to an absurd, frankly insulting interpretation. Give me some credit. I simply meant that:

"for decades (electric cars were adequate but still totally unable to be an option.)"
NOT
"for decades electric cars were adequate, and they are still totally not an option"

The fact is, our civilisation could have been redesigned to run around electric cars in the 70s.. except they would not sell, making them "totally unrealistic". We even put one on the moon.
« Last Edit: 10/10/2018 03:54 am by KelvinZero »

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: SpaceX working on food production for Mars?
« Reply #25 on: 10/10/2018 04:21 am »
...Electric has been adequate as transport for a technological civilisation for decades but still totally unrealistic here on earth when someone could just buy a petrol car....
I don't know where the heck you're going with this analogy, but this is really wrong right now. It's not even close to "still totally unrealistic" to get an electric car. In fact, the total cost of ownership is about the same, possibly even lower. I own two electric cars and bought them each for $10,000 used. They're fantastic cars, and any premium I paid on them vs petrol is easily paid for by the amount I'm saving in gasoline, oil changes, brakes, and the time needed to do each of those.
Don't be so jumpy. I can see my use of the word "still" was a bit ambiguous but you leapt to an absurd, frankly insulting interpretation. Give me some credit. I simply meant that:

"for decades (electric cars were adequate but still totally unable to be an option.)"
NOT
"for decades electric cars were adequate, and they are still totally not an option"

The fact is, our civilisation could have been redesigned to run around electric cars in the 70s.. except they would not sell, making them "totally unrealistic". We even put one on the moon.
So you're talking about consumer appeal versus practical arguments for using food from Earth. This doesn't make sense except the opposite. Fresh food is going to have more appeal than year-old freeze dried. And early flights will not be about "consumer appeal" but practical survival.


I probably agree with your point that early flights will just use prepackaged food except for experiments with greenhouse grown stuff, but your analogy doesn't make sense.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Online Lar

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Re: SpaceX working on food production for Mars?
« Reply #26 on: 10/10/2018 04:37 am »
Be excellent to each other and don't squabble since you're pretty much on the same page anyway.
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Offline docmordrid

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Re: SpaceX working on food production for Mars?
« Reply #27 on: 10/10/2018 08:59 am »
Offworld hydroponics and aquaculture have alsi been extensively covered in the Scaling Agriculture on Mars thread, including the power needs for large containerized gardens which have been commercialized. 1,289 posts worth to date.

« Last Edit: 10/10/2018 09:11 am by docmordrid »
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Offline Llian Rhydderch

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Re: SpaceX working on food production for Mars?
« Reply #28 on: 10/10/2018 11:53 am »
Offworld hydroponics and aquaculture have alsi been extensively covered in the Scaling Agriculture on Mars thread, including the power needs for large containerized gardens which have been commercialized. 1,289 posts worth to date.

I think that's the point.  We don't seem to have any good sources that SpaceX itself is actually working on food-production on Mars.  None.

So why don't we keep this thread narrowly-focused on that, which was the OP's question.  It may not have much for a while, but will be the go to thread for actual SpaceX work on the topic, whenever something turns up.

And all the endless discussion of how 100+ engineers, biologists, and appreciaters of food might design our own Mars food production can be continued in the Scaling Agriculture on Mars thread.
Re arguments from authority on NSF:  "no one is exempt from error, and errors of authority are usually the worst kind.  Taking your word for things without question is no different than a bracket design not being tested because the designer was an old hand."
"You would actually save yourself time and effort if you were to use evidence and logic to make your points instead of wrapping yourself in the royal mantle of authority.  The approach only works on sheep, not inquisitive, intelligent people."

Offline octavo

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Re: SpaceX working on food production for Mars?
« Reply #29 on: 10/10/2018 12:22 pm »
Bulk protein can easily be provided initially by a high-intensity cricket farm. Cricket eggs are lightweight and crickets can be farmed intensively in very tight spaces. Would probably provide some useful science on animal growth in < 1g conditions

Online Lar

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Re: SpaceX working on food production for Mars?
« Reply #30 on: 10/11/2018 05:10 am »
Please stay on topic. SpaceX isn't raising crickets, unless I missed a news article. If I did, post the link, don't just wax eloquent about how awesome crickets are.

Thank you,
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Offline tdperk

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Re: SpaceX working on food production for Mars?
« Reply #31 on: 10/11/2018 05:09 pm »
Indoor farming is fine if you want salad, but so far I haven't seen any solutions that really offer realistic calories-per-area efficiency.  No one that I know of, for example, is growing corn or wheat indoors on a massive scale, and I'm not sure if doing so is even practical. I'm guessing that it will be quite a while before we can get common staple plants to provide the nutritional density of something like spirulina (no matter how terrible it actually tastes).

The next about three posts just above yours are exactly that.  Including one throwing in on the hoof meat.

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