The way I see it there will be intense competition for cargo space from different design teams and interest groups (see below) so there will be some horse trading –(...)
It seems like something is missing from this discussion. Where's the water? The character of the first missions will be to prove a reliable source of water for fuel production. You must have provable quantities of water before dropping in 100's of tonnes of infrastructure. I agree that later missions will need most everything you can imagine but the thread is titled "Crew for first Mars Mission". I assume this means a permanent settlement site has not been established. The thing I've had trouble figuring out is whether a water source can be proven without a crew. And without a proven water source how does the ship get refueled. I think first cargo ships must be able to process soil for water. This guarantees fuel reserves for later crewed ship. This also requires certain cargo for soil processing. Then the crewed ship, on next synod, has primary responsibility of finding a water source sufficient for a permanent settlement. These responsibilities should drive the required crew selection. It sounds like drillers and miners are the required types.
Quote from: Slarty1080 on 01/06/2019 03:59 pmThe way I see it there will be intense competition for cargo space from different design teams and interest groups (see below) so there will be some horse trading –(...)why? Other than the life support actually needed to make the trip and the basic ability to get out the hatch, everything else can be brought on a dedicated cargo Starship. If the mission requirements balloon too much, send more cargo Starships. This isn't a "bare minimum to get things done" it's "enough to be sure it can be done, no matter what."
Quote from: mwood on 01/06/2019 07:46 pmIt seems like something is missing from this discussion. Where's the water? The character of the first missions will be to prove a reliable source of water for fuel production. You must have provable quantities of water before dropping in 100's of tonnes of infrastructure. I agree that later missions will need most everything you can imagine but the thread is titled "Crew for first Mars Mission". I assume this means a permanent settlement site has not been established. The thing I've had trouble figuring out is whether a water source can be proven without a crew. And without a proven water source how does the ship get refueled. I think first cargo ships must be able to process soil for water. This guarantees fuel reserves for later crewed ship. This also requires certain cargo for soil processing. Then the crewed ship, on next synod, has primary responsibility of finding a water source sufficient for a permanent settlement. These responsibilities should drive the required crew selection. It sounds like drillers and miners are the required types.A good point. There has been much discussion and speculation about this. I imagine that an uncrewed Starship will need to be landed first and either prove that water is available and accessible or even fill itself with propellants before any crewed missions land.I fear this might take some time, we don't know for sure. I suspect the most likely method would be a Rodriguez well as described by others here. Basically melting a hole into a glacier, like they do when supplying the South Pole base with water. I can't see them sending a crew until either there is a fully tanked robot sitting on the surface or they are well sure the crew can get it without too much problem.Extracting water from soil is also a possibility but brings with it a huge array of other issues such as variability of substrate, excavation, transportation, processing, removal of spoil and mechanical wear on equipment (then ISRU water processing after that).So this thread assumes that the water issue has been settled in the sense that the water is available and accessible and "just" needs to be extracted and processed. So yes ISRU engineer and drilling expert and duplicates are required, but who else?
With three Starships, one for crew, one as an orbital tanker and one as a tanker /cargo lander it is possible to put humans on the surface and return them without any ISRU. This would allow a human crew to set up a robot facility for future missions. It might not be the best option depending on many factors but it is quite possible – I checked the basic numbers if anyone is interested.
Quote from: Slarty1080 on 01/07/2019 01:35 amWith three Starships, one for crew, one as an orbital tanker and one as a tanker /cargo lander it is possible to put humans on the surface and return them without any ISRU. This would allow a human crew to set up a robot facility for future missions. It might not be the best option depending on many factors but it is quite possible – I checked the basic numbers if anyone is interested.I'm intrigued. I would think that combined payload capacity of 3 ships wouldn't be enough fuel for return. Please explain. Without fully robotic fuel production this may be the only way to guarantee a return trip for the first crew.
I agree on all except the medical crew. I volunteer (every weekend through the winter) for a First Responder organization. While we do have medical professionals who tend to fill in teaching/certification roles, there are members from all walks of life. All the crew should get First Responder training at the bare minimum.
Quote from: KSHavre on 01/05/2019 05:10 pmI agree on all except the medical crew. I volunteer (every weekend through the winter) for a First Responder organization. While we do have medical professionals who tend to fill in teaching/certification roles, there are members from all walks of life. All the crew should get First Responder training at the bare minimum. You might take professional surgeon, and train him up for 3 years to do one of the engineerings roles - perhaps one of the chemical based ones (ISRU equipment...). The "surgeon" role is then his second role.A professional surgeon hopefully won't be needed. But if it is, best to have back up for the 11 first responders.
Several of you argued convincingly that there is no need for a medical doctor.What do yo think about a medical scientist, instead? A human factors expert, if you wish.Human performance is probably the biggest unknown here. Martian gravity? Mental health? Diet? Group dynamics? Ergonomy? Wouldn't be a good idea to have a person, who has a serious backround in space medicine and psychiatry, for studying the human situation? He/she can have practical tasks, as analysing blood samples, or treating ill crew members, but this is not the point. Anybody can be trained for these things. The point is that he/she may be able to recognize emerging issues, medical or psychological, early on. SpaceX needs human factors experts for crew selection and training, anyway. Why don't send one of them to Mars to study the outcome and report back his/her learned lessons for the benefit of the next crew selection/training?
Quote from: geza on 01/11/2019 08:35 amSeveral of you argued convincingly that there is no need for a medical doctor.What do yo think about a medical scientist, instead? A human factors expert, if you wish.Human performance is probably the biggest unknown here. Martian gravity? Mental health? Diet? Group dynamics? Ergonomy? Wouldn't be a good idea to have a person, who has a serious backround in space medicine and psychiatry, for studying the human situation? He/she can have practical tasks, as analysing blood samples, or treating ill crew members, but this is not the point. Anybody can be trained for these things. The point is that he/she may be able to recognize emerging issues, medical or psychological, early on. SpaceX needs human factors experts for crew selection and training, anyway. Why don't send one of them to Mars to study the outcome and report back his/her learned lessons for the benefit of the next crew selection/training?I disagree. If there is an actual medical emergency there is no replacement for an experienced medical doctor's abilities. Not just a hospital surgeon, but someone like a military surgeon who has experience treating complex injuries under combat situations with limited front-line equipment and facilities. Active military service is almost certainly the best place to get the experience necessary for the physical and psychological environments on an early Mars expedition.It's a lot easier to train a medical doctor in biology and psychology than the other way around.