Quote from: rgreen on 05/02/2015 03:28 pmFollowing on what jknuble said about the multipactor-like effect as a possible cause of thrust. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multipactor_effect I can't help but wonder about what's going on with the copper surface of the frustum. A quick back of the envelope (well, python) calculation shows that there's certainly enough energy in these devices to somehow atomize a small amount of copper , and propel them with enough momentum to produce a small amount of thrust. For example, a 30 watt emdrive where 0.001% of the energy went towards atomization and 1% went toward addtional momentum of the particles... You'd have a device with 91uN thrust, propelling 1.4ng of copper a second at 65500m/s.I can think of 3 ways to debunk this. 1) perhaps that amount of particles going that fast would be noticeable with the naked eye, so this isn't really a valid explanation. 2) stick a detector behind the thruster (are they ionized?). 3) SEM of the surface compared to scraps from the same batch of copper not used in the thrustum.Just how would we get a net-thrust from a closed cavity with atomization. Even if atoms are being ioniozed inside the cavity I don't see how that could result in a net thrust. Atomization results in immediate thrust but then that creates impact on the other side of the cavity canceling out the propulsion.
Following on what jknuble said about the multipactor-like effect as a possible cause of thrust. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multipactor_effect I can't help but wonder about what's going on with the copper surface of the frustum. A quick back of the envelope (well, python) calculation shows that there's certainly enough energy in these devices to somehow atomize a small amount of copper , and propel them with enough momentum to produce a small amount of thrust. For example, a 30 watt emdrive where 0.001% of the energy went towards atomization and 1% went toward addtional momentum of the particles... You'd have a device with 91uN thrust, propelling 1.4ng of copper a second at 65500m/s.I can think of 3 ways to debunk this. 1) perhaps that amount of particles going that fast would be noticeable with the naked eye, so this isn't really a valid explanation. 2) stick a detector behind the thruster (are they ionized?). 3) SEM of the surface compared to scraps from the same batch of copper not used in the thrustum.
Last year's R. Shawyer's conference presentation slides had been already posted in this thread. I had not seen the final version of the presentation paper (the attachment in @Mulletron's post) but, although it is nice to have for reference, I did not see something there that we had not discussed or reviewed before (including the latest superconducting design by Shawyer which we have discussed multiple times), as well as his project studies for aerospace.That conference was 6 months ago. There are several things that are NOT new, and that have been discussed for several months in these threads, for example:* that R. Shawyer no longer uses any dielectric inserts in his EM Drive* that the latest design of R. Shawyer is superconducting with Doppler compensation, and large cone angle and spherical endsAs an example of what can happen in 6 months of R&D, during the last 6 months, NASA Eagleworks reported:1) The first time that any organization has conducted EM Drive tests in a vacuum2) A positive signal in their interferometer tests, using an EM Drive pillbox shape as the test item.QUESTIONS:Is there any update on what is the progress with Shawyer's superconducting EM Drive? Does he report an experimental Q? Does he report any experimental measurements during the last 6 months?Does anybody have an explanation why Shawyer reports measurements of force in opposing directions for the Demonstrator engine and ONLY for this engine (it cannot be a typo, since it is repeated in the final version of the conference paper).If I have missed something new, that had not been reviewed previously, I would appreciate if somebody could point it out. If there nothing new that can be pointed out, there is no need to reply.Thanks.
Roger that.Good to know all the data that can be mined from past presentations and postings has been mined, discussed, sorted and filed away. Guess we wait for new data from EW's test of their new build, which hopefully follows Shawyers test protocol and elimination of dielectrics recommendations, at least initially.
Wonderful breakthrough in many ways.I was wondering has anyone given the thought to putting several of the EM drives in series?
I know I'm new here but I've been in engineering for almost 50 years. The EM drive seems to parallel so many things I've seen in electronics and embrace harmonics and it got me thinking how it would compare to things like a YAGI antenna for gain buy linking them in series. Would you get a Q gain in thrust?
Quote from: TheTraveller on 05/04/2015 01:45 pmRoger that.Good to know all the data that can be mined from past presentations and postings has been mined, discussed, sorted and filed away. Guess we wait for new data from EW's test of their new build, which hopefully follows Shawyers test protocol and elimination of dielectrics recommendations, at least initially.No, you have already shown that we need to revisit what Mr. Shawyer has been reporting. This forum has not given the necessary attention to most of it. Also look back up in the thread where @meberbs was talking about the Chinese using coils. I don't ever remember talking about that. I about fainted when I read that because I'm convinced this thing works primarily off the magnetic field component inside the cavity.http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36313.msg1368813#msg1368813I know from experiment that a magnetic field goes right though the thin copper from one side to the other. So that is trivial to pull off. Hopefully Eagleworks accounted for the magnetic field going the other way..inside to out.@TheTraveller, keep bring in fresh insight. You're rocking this thread.
Hopefully Eagleworks accounted for the magnetic field going the other way..inside to out.
Lastly find attach a slide with the results of this week's test that demonstrate that the copper frustum still generates a thrust signature when it is not in the stainless steel vacuum chamber walls. And as you will note the forward thrust signature is similar in magnitude for the same 50W case in-air in the vacuum chamber, so I think we can start to put to bed the idea that standard E&M evanescent waves interactions with the vacuum chamber walls are the cause of these thrust signatures.
Further thoughts that I think correlate to the TheTraveller's statements.I was thinking about my post from last night and was pondering why, if pushed in the "forward" direction the drive begins and continues to accelerate. If you imagine the drive creating two gravity wells, small/deep at rear and large/shallow at front. Once the drive is pushed, the gravity wells would follow the drive HOWEVER the reaction is subject to the speed of light. That momentary delay might allow for the drive to slip into the forward gravity well's wake and begin accelerating (essentially falling).Just food for thought...
Quote from: Mulletron on 05/04/2015 02:00 pmQuote from: TheTraveller on 05/04/2015 01:45 pmRoger that.Good to know all the data that can be mined from past presentations and postings has been mined, discussed, sorted and filed away. Guess we wait for new data from EW's test of their new build, which hopefully follows Shawyers test protocol and elimination of dielectrics recommendations, at least initially.No, you have already shown that we need to revisit what Mr. Shawyer has been reporting. This forum has not given the necessary attention to most of it. Also look back up in the thread where @meberbs was talking about the Chinese using coils. I don't ever remember talking about that. I about fainted when I read that because I'm convinced this thing works primarily off the magnetic field component inside the cavity.http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36313.msg1368813#msg1368813I know from experiment that a magnetic field goes right though the thin copper from one side to the other. So that is trivial to pull off. Hopefully Eagleworks accounted for the magnetic field going the other way..inside to out.@TheTraveller, keep bring in fresh insight. You're rocking this thread.What I read is, the Chinese test rig has 2 coils, electromagnets, one of which is activated, once the test article moves from plum, to force the test article back to plum. Coils are calibrated as to the restorative force they generate per current input. Depending on which way the test article moves, either coil 3 or coil 4 is activated to restore the test article to plum and the current drawn determines the force generated by the test article.Chinese thrust measurement system attached.
Quote from: PushHigher on 05/04/2015 02:27 pmFurther thoughts that I think correlate to the TheTraveller's statements.I was thinking about my post from last night and was pondering why, if pushed in the "forward" direction the drive begins and continues to accelerate. If you imagine the drive creating two gravity wells, small/deep at rear and large/shallow at front. Once the drive is pushed, the gravity wells would follow the drive HOWEVER the reaction is subject to the speed of light. That momentary delay might allow for the drive to slip into the forward gravity well's wake and begin accelerating (essentially falling).Just food for thought...Or something much more mundane:http://usersguidetotheuniverse.com/?p=2865A resonant cavity can ONLY support certain frequencies. If those frequencies change, say due to red or blue shift, they won't/can't resonate, and are lost. That resonant cavity that was once saturated, now has a "hole" which can be filled by more incoming radiation, said another way energy flowing back in. The transient Poynting vector. In layman's terms.The missing Poynting vector is due to us never considering an accelerating cavity. Shawyer says it has to move first before you observe a force. He isn't just saying that. He probably observed that.That sounds exactly like ME too. Same freaking thing. Two sides of the same coin.ME=Classical descriptionEM=Quantum descriptionSee that bottom pic. Those "dips" are the only frequencies that will exist within that range of my cavity. If they get shifted up or down (like by if I pick up the cavity and shake the crap out of it), they're history.
Or something much more mundane:http://usersguidetotheuniverse.com/?p=2865A resonant cavity can ONLY support certain frequencies. If those frequencies change, say due to red or blue shift, they won't/can't resonate, and are lost. That resonant cavity that was once saturated, now has a "hole" which can be filled by more incoming radiation, said another way energy flowing back in. The transient Poynting vector. In layman's terms.The missing Poynting vector is due to us never considering an accelerating cavity. Shawyer says it has to move first before you observe a force. He isn't just saying that. He probably observed that.That sounds exactly like ME too. Same freaking thing. Two sides of the same coin.ME=Classical descriptionEM=Quantum descriptionSee that bottom pic. Those "dips" are the only frequencies that will exist within that range of my cavity. If they get shifted up or down (like by if I pick up the cavity and shake the crap out of it), they're history.
But this is NOT what was measured at NASA Eagleworks. Nothing needed to be pushed and nothing was pushed at NASA Eagleworks.Now, two different experiments and mechanisms are being discussed (#2 as treated by Mulletron and TheTraveller):1) NASA Eagleworks. Stationary test item. Thrust force in same direction as movement.2) SHAWYER. Need moving item to measure force ?. Thrust force in opposite direction to movement. (All kind of experimental issues here, and a lack of experimental force-vs.-time data to analyze).Since they are different, I wonder whether we should split threads into NASA Eagleworks and a separate thead for the others. This would prevent confusion.
We performed some very early evaluations without the dielectric resonator (TE012 mode at 2168 MHz, with power levels up to ~30 watts) and measured no significant net thrust.
But this is NOT what was measured at NASA Eagleworks. Nothing needed to be pushed and nothing was pushed at NASA Eagleworks.
QuoteBut this is NOT what was measured at NASA Eagleworks. Nothing needed to be pushed and nothing was pushed at NASA Eagleworks.We are on a rotating sphere, could that be the push?
Quote from: Mulletron on 05/04/2015 02:30 pmOr something much more mundane:http://usersguidetotheuniverse.com/?p=2865A resonant cavity can ONLY support certain frequencies. If those frequencies change, say due to red or blue shift, they won't/can't resonate, and are lost. That resonant cavity that was once saturated, now has a "hole" which can be filled by more incoming radiation, said another way energy flowing back in. The transient Poynting vector. In layman's terms.The missing Poynting vector is due to us never considering an accelerating cavity. Shawyer says it has to move first before you observe a force. He isn't just saying that. He probably observed that.That sounds exactly like ME too. Same freaking thing. Two sides of the same coin.ME=Classical descriptionEM=Quantum descriptionSee that bottom pic. Those "dips" are the only frequencies that will exist within that range of my cavity. If they get shifted up or down (like by if I pick up the cavity and shake the crap out of it), they're history.Going into the speculation side and maybe a silly error: this observation could also match with EW's potential observation of a warpdrive signature.If I remember well, they have mentioned something called 'boost' that seems to be a speed multiplier.What if we are actually seeing that, a initial speed from an imparted momentum, just slightly 'boosted'?
I think just recently (maybe within 15 05 20 pages ago Someone Said that Dr White considers the EM drive to be a case of warp drive because he thinks the underlying principles of operation are dipping into the same source. My memory is really vague but if I remember right you are not too far off the mark. at least on one branch of consideration here.
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