Author Topic: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013  (Read 44723 times)

Offline yg1968

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17266
  • Liked: 7123
  • Likes Given: 3064
Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #100 on: 01/19/2013 02:13 pm »
Here is the press conference on YouTube:

« Last Edit: 01/19/2013 02:13 pm by yg1968 »

Offline Blackstar

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15286
  • Liked: 7822
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #101 on: 01/19/2013 06:39 pm »
This is only the first step. Just wait, there will be more announcements like this.

Offline mr. mark

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1996
  • Liked: 172
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #102 on: 01/19/2013 06:46 pm »
I see nothing wrong with ESA astronauts. We are not in the middle of a cold war and NASA is no longer a USA prestige interest. Combining forces as we have on ISS is long term the best way to go. On a side note, keeping Russia out the conversation is in my opinion a bad deal.

Offline Rugoz

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 124
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #103 on: 01/19/2013 07:19 pm »

Whatever one thinks of this cooperation, the x-wing fighter layout of the solar panels makes for a cool looking spaceship.

Offline ChileVerde

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1176
  • La frontera
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #104 on: 01/19/2013 09:00 pm »
This is only the first step. Just wait, there will be more announcements like this.

A Russian-supplied Lagrange station/protoDSH would not surprise me too much. (Well, maybe a little.) NASA really needs to get a few more pieces lined up before it can seriously claim to have an exploration program.  Being somewhat squeezed for money to do it indigenously, getting a little help from its friends makes sense.
"I can’t tell you which asteroid, but there will be one in 2025," Bolden asserted.

Offline clongton

  • Expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12053
  • Connecticut
    • Direct Launcher
  • Liked: 7347
  • Likes Given: 3749
Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #105 on: 01/19/2013 09:27 pm »
NASA is no longer a USA prestige interest.

Sorry but you couldn't be more wrong. Go ANYWHERE around the world, say "NASA" and the hearer will immediately think "America".
Chuck - DIRECT co-founder
I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

Offline Khadgars

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1750
  • Orange County, California
  • Liked: 1132
  • Likes Given: 3156
Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #106 on: 01/19/2013 09:34 pm »
NASA is no longer a USA prestige interest.

Sorry but you couldn't be more wrong. Go ANYWHERE around the world, say "NASA" and the hearer will immediately think "America".

Agreed.  I'm curious Clongton about your opinions regarding the ESA SM and the fact that NASA will be providing all of the fairings and other load bearing structures for it.  NASA will also have, according to the presser, all the information from the SM should they want to create it themselves.
Evil triumphs when good men do nothing - Thomas Jefferson

Offline clongton

  • Expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12053
  • Connecticut
    • Direct Launcher
  • Liked: 7347
  • Likes Given: 3749
Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #107 on: 01/19/2013 09:56 pm »
NASA is no longer a USA prestige interest.

Sorry but you couldn't be more wrong. Go ANYWHERE around the world, say "NASA" and the hearer will immediately think "America".

Agreed.  I'm curious Clongton about your opinions regarding the ESA SM and the fact that NASA will be providing all of the fairings and other load bearing structures for it.  NASA will also have, according to the presser, all the information from the SM should they want to create it themselves.

Since you asked: Personally I believe the whole thing is a disastrous mistake. NASA decided not to build a common sense Shuttle derived HLV for an amount of money we could actually afford. Instead they went for the biggest baddest HLV possible for a price tag that will be the death of it, leaving no money to pay for the MPCV's Service Module. Because they are now committed to a path that is so expensive that it almost guarantees project cancellation, they are unable to ask Congress for additional funding for the SM and are forced to look elsewhere and make deals with the ESA. The ESA has agreed to build only one SM and provide parts for another partial build and then it is done. It really doesn't matter whether or not the US can then take over SM production because it won't happen. There's no money left in the till to pay for it. Instead of going to Europe for the SM, NASA should have taken a step back, reduced the size of the SLS to an affordable vehicle. Then the SM could have been built domestically and we would still have money left over to execute missions with.

But hey, who am I? I'm just a guy with a little experience on a team that designed an HLV that actually made sense within available budgets.
Chuck - DIRECT co-founder
I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

Offline spectre9

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2403
  • Australia
  • Liked: 42
  • Likes Given: 68
Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #108 on: 01/19/2013 11:17 pm »
Always loved the way clongton tells it like it is  ;D

Lockheed Martin could've built their own Orion launch vehicle, the Atlas V Phase II Heavy. This would also have commonality with the rockets NASA and DoD use for unmanned payloads and given them greater capability for those missions.

The price tag was good. The NASA jobs created weren't so shuttle derived was the compromise.

SLS is required to launch "the multipurpose crew vehicle" it doesn't need to be as big as it is to do that.

There's no other pressing requirement (70-130mt doesn't matter too much) initially just make sure it can launch the MPCV like Ares 1 wasn't able to do.

Offline Rugoz

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 124
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #109 on: 01/19/2013 11:35 pm »

Even with a cheaper launcher there is still no mission. For some reason nasa thinks its better to fly it twice than never  ::).

Offline Blackstar

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15286
  • Liked: 7822
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #110 on: 01/20/2013 01:42 am »
This is only the first step. Just wait, there will be more announcements like this.

A Russian-supplied Lagrange station/protoDSH would not surprise me too much. (Well, maybe a little.)

Heh heh heh...

Maybe that. Maybe something else. Just wait...

Offline HappyMartian

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2713
  • Tap the Moon's water!
  • Asia
  • Liked: 16
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #111 on: 01/20/2013 11:42 am »
This is only the first step. Just wait, there will be more announcements like this.

A Russian-supplied Lagrange station/protoDSH would not surprise me too much. (Well, maybe a little.)

Heh heh heh...

Maybe that. Maybe something else. Just wait...

OK. But maybe the American taxpayers are just a bit tired of waiting for a sensible BLEO plan.

The whole point of ESA building a SM for the Orion seems to be an attempt at making the Lunar SLS/Orion missions both affordable and politically sustainable through international cooperation and cost sharing of critical spaceflight hardware.

Japan, Germany, or Russia, could build the upper stage for the SLS.

Russia, China, India, or Golden Spike could build the Lander.

Russia, China, India, or Bigelow could build the Low Lunar Orbit Space Station that could be launched by the SLS.

And the SLS could launch an Orion or Russia's PTK NP spacecraft with an ESA SM.

If Congress likes it, perhaps this ESA SM is just the beginning of how BLEO missions will be done in the future.


Edited.
« Last Edit: 01/20/2013 11:43 am by HappyMartian »
"The Moon is the most accessible destination for realizing commercial, exploration and scientific objectives beyond low Earth orbit." - LEAG

Offline ChileVerde

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1176
  • La frontera
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #112 on: 01/20/2013 05:23 pm »

Meditating on SM-1 and portions of SM-2 just now, the obvious occurred to me: EM-1 and EM-2 are very different missions. In particular, EM-2 will have a crew and EM-1 won't and therefore SM-1 will not need to have functioning ECLSS-related equipment, whereas SM-2 will.  So perhaps ESA will deliver SM-1 with a mass mock-up of the ECLSS stuff and SM-2 will have real ECLSS (and perhaps other mission-specific equipment) added by NASA?

Just a thought.
"I can’t tell you which asteroid, but there will be one in 2025," Bolden asserted.

Offline woods170

  • IRAS fan
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12094
  • IRAS fan
  • The Netherlands
  • Liked: 18196
  • Likes Given: 12153
Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #113 on: 01/20/2013 05:40 pm »

Meditating on SM-1 and portions of SM-2 just now, the obvious occurred to me: EM-1 and EM-2 are very different missions. In particular, EM-2 will have a crew and EM-1 won't and therefore SM-1 will not need to have functioning ECLSS-related equipment, whereas SM-2 will.  So perhaps ESA will deliver SM-1 with a mass mock-up of the ECLSS stuff and SM-2 will have real ECLSS (and perhaps other mission-specific equipment) added by NASA?

Just a thought.
Most of the ECLSS systems are located in the Crew Module (CM) and Crew Module Adaptor (CMA), not in the Service Module (SM). The SM only has to provide power, water and gases for the ECLSS systems inside the CM and CMA.
Power it will need to provide for EM-1 anyway, so no sence in leaving that out. Gases for a sustained pressurization of the CM will be needed on EM-1 also, despite no crew being present. So, no sense to leave those tanks out.
My guess is that most systems on the SM for support of the ECLSS will be present on SM-1.
« Last Edit: 01/20/2013 05:42 pm by woods170 »

Offline simpl simon

  • Regular
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 427
  • Liked: 23
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #114 on: 01/20/2013 08:07 pm »
It would be interesting to know whether the Implementing Agreement governing this cooperation addresses the possibility that the EM-1 mission objectives cannot be achieved because of a failure of the SM. For example if it fails to provide a required burn and the Orion spacecraft is stranded, and cannot return to Earth.
Will ESA then be required to provide a second SM?

Offline spectre9

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2403
  • Australia
  • Liked: 42
  • Likes Given: 68
Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #115 on: 01/20/2013 08:48 pm »
I don't doubt the capability of ESA.

Of all the hardware NASA needs for useful exploration the SM is down very low on the list.

ATV fuel tanker or DSH would be much better.

Perhaps they'll provide that too in time  ???

Offline Ben the Space Brit

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7206
  • A spaceflight fan
  • London, UK
  • Liked: 806
  • Likes Given: 900
Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #116 on: 01/20/2013 09:29 pm »
For example if it fails to provide a required burn and the Orion spacecraft is stranded, and cannot return to Earth.
Will ESA then be required to provide a second SM?

That's one failure mode that couldn't be laid at the ESA's door - the MPS on the service module will be a reconditioned shuttle OMS engine.
"Oops! I left the silly thing in reverse!" - Duck Dodgers

~*~*~*~

The Space Shuttle Program - 1981-2011

The time for words has passed; The time has come to put up or shut up!
DON'T PROPAGANDISE, FLY!!!

Offline simpl simon

  • Regular
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 427
  • Liked: 23
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #117 on: 01/20/2013 09:51 pm »
For example if it fails to provide a required burn and the Orion spacecraft is stranded, and cannot return to Earth.
Will ESA then be required to provide a second SM?

That's one failure mode that couldn't be laid at the ESA's door - the MPS on the service module will be a reconditioned shuttle OMS engine.

I was hoping someone could answer the question rather than just quibble with the example. And I'm surprised you would assume that the fault would lie with the OMS engine rather than with the control electronics, the power supply or with some other sub-system or component.

Offline sdsds

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7201
  • “With peace and hope for all mankind.”
  • Seattle
  • Liked: 2050
  • Likes Given: 1962
Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #118 on: 01/21/2013 12:30 am »
In the United States, the Freedom of Information Act provides the right to obtain access to federal agency records. (Except there are nine exemptions that sometimes protect such records from public disclosure.) Although in theory those requesting records might need to go to court to enforce their FOIA rights, President Obama has directed agencies to apply a presumption of openness in responding to FOIA requests. So it should be possible to find out what the Implementing Agreement actually says.

http://www.foia.gov/about.html

Just sayin'.
« Last Edit: 01/21/2013 12:31 am by sdsds »
— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 —

Offline ChileVerde

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1176
  • La frontera
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: LIVE: ESA and NASA Announcement on Orion SM - Jan 16, 2013
« Reply #119 on: 01/21/2013 10:36 pm »

Jeff Foust over at The Space Review, which I esteem greatly, has just posted this take on what the Orion SM deal includes. I pass it on for consideration and with the recommendation that the whole article be read.

Quote
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/2222/1

The benefits (and limitations) of space partnerships
by Jeff Foust
Monday, January 21, 2013

<snip>

[The ESA/NASA service module] cooperation, though, has its limitations. One aspect not immediately clear from the agency announcements about the agreement is that it covers only one service module. That module will be flown on the EM-1 mission, the first Orion/SLS mission planned for launch in 2017. Production of service modules for later missions, including the first crewed Orion mission, EM-2 in 2021, remains undecided.

ESA will provide spare parts for the EM-1 module that could be used for later missions, said NASA Orion program manager Mark Geyer. However, Gerstenmaier said no decision has been made on who will produce the service module for the EM-2 and later missions, raising the possibility that the component could revert back to NASA.

“We really haven’t defined that at this point,” Gerstenmaier said. “We’re protected both ways.” That includes maintaining ownership of the relevant intellectual property regarding the service module so that NASA could manufacture future modules if needed. “We’ve really made no decisions about those future flights. We think it’s important to set this up on the first flight and then plan for that transition” for the second and future flights.

<snip>
"I can’t tell you which asteroid, but there will be one in 2025," Bolden asserted.

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
0