Author Topic: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION  (Read 92290 times)

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #100 on: 12/14/2017 04:42 pm »


My bet is on OATK down-selecting to RL10. It fits "build American, fly American".


Anyone want to take a shot at the performance of Vinci and RL-10 NGLs? Oh and if someone would like to try their hand at a Rutherford Version, I'm certainly curious.

A Rutherford or electric pump engine wouldn't scale to RL10 class engine. An engine developer on a podcast I listened to said 5klbs is about it.

Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #101 on: 12/14/2017 05:55 pm »
A Rutherford or electric pump engine wouldn't scale to RL10 class engine. An engine developer on a podcast I listened to said 5klbs is about it.

The idea was to use a couple vacuum optimized Rutherford engines bought straight from Rocket Lab for the Upper Stage rather than make a RL-10 scale electric pump engine. It probably wouldn't happen, but it seems at least two of us are mildly curious about what that would look like.

Ignoring money for the moment, the RL-10 is plainly superior to even 3 Rutherfords. 66kn vs 110kn, and Isp of 333s vs 465s.

But with Rocket Lab claiming $5mil per launch, even if the upper stage engine was half the launch cost, 3 would probably still be notably cheaper than a RL-10. It also means OATK can use it's technical expertise with Kerolox. To my knowledge, OATK has never worked with Hydrolox before.

Just a fun idea that will never come to be
Wait, ∆V? This site will accept the ∆ symbol? How many times have I written out the word "delta" for no reason?

Offline Chasm

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Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #102 on: 12/14/2017 07:04 pm »
My bet is on OATK down-selecting to RL10. It fits "build American, fly American".

Mine btw. too.  8)

I think talking publicly about Vinci is first and foremost a strong message to ARJ that the rejection of BE-3U did not make RL10 the inevitable choice. Certainly not at any cost.

Offline envy887

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Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #103 on: 12/14/2017 08:08 pm »
Anyone know if Broadsword was ever seriously considered for NGL?

Offline woods170

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Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #104 on: 12/15/2017 06:49 am »
My bet is on OATK down-selecting to RL10. It fits "build American, fly American".

Mine btw. too.  8)

I think talking publicly about Vinci is first and foremost a strong message to ARJ that the rejection of BE-3U did not make RL10 the inevitable choice. Certainly not at any cost.
I'm not so sure.  Remember, Orbital ATK is the company flying the least-American orbital rocket currently flying from U.S. soil, with a Ukrainian built first stage powered by Russian engines, boosting a largely Italian-built payload.  Vinci is, or will be, more efficient than RL10.  For all we know it might also cost less.

 - Ed Kyle

On that last phrase I can assure you: it won't.
That is: not until they bring down the parts number significantly and streamline production. Remember, the basic design of Vinci is almost 20 years old, before the time of "econonomic viability" and "additive manufacturing". Plus it is being constructed in Europe where production of aerospace products is almost as expensive as it is in the USA due to the relatively large number of sub-contractors involved.
« Last Edit: 12/15/2017 06:53 am by woods170 »

Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #105 on: 12/15/2017 02:46 pm »
Anyone know if Broadsword was ever seriously considered for NGL?

I do not, but it would make alot of sense. I always forget how good the broadsword looks on paper
Wait, ∆V? This site will accept the ∆ symbol? How many times have I written out the word "delta" for no reason?

Online Coastal Ron

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Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #106 on: 12/15/2017 08:07 pm »
Vinci is, or will be, more efficient than RL10.  For all we know it might also cost less.

On that last phrase I can assure you: it won't.
That is: not until they bring down the parts number significantly and streamline production. Remember, the basic design of Vinci is almost 20 years old, before the time of "econonomic viability" and "additive manufacturing". Plus it is being constructed in Europe where production of aerospace products is almost as expensive as it is in the USA due to the relatively large number of sub-contractors involved.
Vinci is a youngster compared to RL10.  RL10 first flew in 1961 and was firing on test stands a year or two earlier, when Eisenhower was U.S. President!

It's not the number of years per se, but the engineering & manufacturing generation it was created in.

For instance products created before high volume 3D printing became practical for rocket engine parts may not be able to be redesigned to take advantage of the cost and time savings that 3D printing can provide. Which would put the Vinci engine in the same situation as the RL-10.

Quote
You may be right about the cost comparison, but Aerojet Rocketdyne costs have skyrocketed in recent years, so I'll withhold judgement.  It will be an interesting decision.

AR may not be inexpensive, but where have you heard that their costs have "skyrocketed in recent years"?
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline calapine

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Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #107 on: 12/15/2017 08:46 pm »

It's not the number of years per se, but the engineering & manufacturing generation it was created in.

For instance products created before high volume 3D printing became practical for rocket engine parts may not be able to be redesigned to take advantage of the cost and time savings that 3D printing can provide. Which would put the Vinci engine in the same situation as the RL-10.

Vinci manufacturing processes aren't that old:

Arianegroup:

Quote
The economic challenge is one of our main concerns today. The Vinci engine is purpose-designed to cost requirements. That is why we chose an "Expander" cycle. This technology sidesteps specific gas generators, as opposed to our other engines. We have also packed many technological breakthroughs into this engine, including powder metallurgy and additive manufacturing, to optimize operating cost-efficiency even further.
https://www.safran-group.com/media/20131120_vinci-one-engine-two-ariane-launchers
« Last Edit: 12/15/2017 08:47 pm by calapine »

Offline GWH

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Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #108 on: 12/18/2017 07:41 pm »
Happening in 20 minutes:

"Join us on Facebook today as we talk with Steven Roebke, an engineer on our Next Generation Launch (NGL) System. Tune in Live at 4 p.m. EST."

https://twitter.com/OrbitalATK/status/942848822102974464

https://www.facebook.com/OrbitalATK/

Offline GWH

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Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #109 on: 12/18/2017 08:18 pm »
Announcement on the upper stage to come in a few weeks. My question on BE-3U wasn't answered  ;)

Very short Q&A, lots of background noise.

EDIT: The complete video and all comments are now posted on their Facebook page.
« Last Edit: 12/18/2017 09:21 pm by GWH »

Offline whitelancer64

Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #110 on: 12/18/2017 08:32 pm »
I'm glad they answered my question about customers, but disappointing that it seems like only the Air Force at this time.
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Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #111 on: 12/19/2017 07:57 am »
I can see them offering complete build and launch package for their satellites. The women presenter kind of hinted at this when asked about customers. Even if launch is priced at cost OA would still make nice profit from satellite, while keeping they production line ticking over.

They did cover reuseability question, answer it is ELV. No surprises there given it is mostly solids. This may yet be competitive LV especially against Ariane 6 and Vulcan. Unlike these competitors OA are building most of the NGLV inhouse, only US engine will be external. With ULA most components are outsourced, engines, SRBs, fairing. Even more importantly OA only need few (3?) launches a year for it to be viable.






Offline woods170

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Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #112 on: 12/19/2017 09:50 am »

It's not the number of years per se, but the engineering & manufacturing generation it was created in.

For instance products created before high volume 3D printing became practical for rocket engine parts may not be able to be redesigned to take advantage of the cost and time savings that 3D printing can provide. Which would put the Vinci engine in the same situation as the RL-10.

Vinci manufacturing processes aren't that old:

Arianegroup:

Quote
The economic challenge is one of our main concerns today. The Vinci engine is purpose-designed to cost requirements. That is why we chose an "Expander" cycle. This technology sidesteps specific gas generators, as opposed to our other engines. We have also packed many technological breakthroughs into this engine, including powder metallurgy and additive manufacturing, to optimize operating cost-efficiency even further.
https://www.safran-group.com/media/20131120_vinci-one-engine-two-ariane-launchers

Yes, I'm aware of those changes (in bold) and they are limited in nature (injector mostly). You also have to consider the time-frame when to changes were inserted: over 5 years ago. Back then they may have been intended to reduce cost but those cost-savings have been overtaken by reality.

The part about being "purpose-designed to cost requirements" is an empty statement given that those cost-requirements date back to Ariane 5 ME (over a decade ago). A decade ago ESA and Arianespace didn't have to worry about SpaceX disrupting the market.

Calapine, you really have to learn that statements, such as the above one by Safran Group, are purely spin PR. "Cost-effectiveness" in particular is a phrase coined by contractors to hide the fact their products are still horrendously expensive.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #113 on: 01/02/2018 08:00 pm »
Liberty relied on Ariane supplied US, while NGLV US will be built inhouse with engine outsource. Should be lot cheaper to build plus they have access to all of Orbitals avionics and systems.

Offline jacqmans

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Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #114 on: 01/05/2018 10:01 am »
Orbital ATK Signs Cooperative Agreement with U.S. Air Force Space and Missile Systems Center

Research and Development Agreement Enables Certification of Orbital ATK’s Next Generation Launch System


Dulles, Virginia 04 January 2018 – Orbital ATK (NYSE: OA), a global leader in aerospace and defense technologies, today announced it has signed a Cooperative Research and Development Agreement (CRADA) with the U.S. Air Force’s Space and Missile Systems Center (SMC). The CRADA provides the framework and plan for data exchanges needed to certify Orbital ATK’s Next Generation Launch (NGL) system to carry National Security Space missions.

“Under this CRADA, Orbital ATK is better able to support SMC in being the guardians of assured access to space,” said Scott Lehr, President of Orbital ATK’s Flight Systems Group. “We look forward to certifying NGL to launch National Security Space Missions.”

Orbital ATK is currently in early production of development hardware for NGL. To date, the company has jointly invested with the Air Force more than $200 million to develop the NGL rocket family.

In addition to launching the entire spectrum of national security payloads, the NGL family of vehicles will be capable of launching science and commercial satellites that are too large to be launched by Orbital ATK’s current Pegasus®, Minotaur and AntaresTM space launch vehicles. The NGL vehicles will share common propulsion, structures and avionics systems with other company programs, including smaller space launch vehicles as well as missile defense interceptors, target vehicles and strategic missile systems.

The next phase of the NGL program is expected to begin when the Air Force awards Launch Services Agreements in mid-2018, which would entail full vehicle and launch site development, with work taking place at company facilities in Promontory and Magna, Utah; Iuka, Mississippi; Chandler, Arizona; Kennedy Space Center, Florida, and Vandenberg Air Force Base, California.
Jacques :-)

Offline Ronsmytheiii

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Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #115 on: 01/06/2018 09:49 am »
Quote
Signed Cooperative Research and Development Agreement with @AF_SMC enables certification of NGL to carry National Security Space missions bit.ly/2lU1pcw

Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #116 on: 01/25/2018 05:57 pm »
Maybe I'm going crazy, but this upper stage is sounding more and more like the 4 meter DCSS. Surely there's some obvious difference I'm just blanking on.

And for fun either way, how well would the Delta upper stage work on top of NGL?
« Last Edit: 01/25/2018 06:05 pm by JEF_300 »
Wait, ∆V? This site will accept the ∆ symbol? How many times have I written out the word "delta" for no reason?

Offline Patchouli

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Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #117 on: 01/26/2018 01:52 am »
Maybe I'm going crazy, but this upper stage is sounding more and more like the 4 meter DCSS. Surely there's some obvious difference I'm just blanking on.

And for fun either way, how well would the Delta upper stage work on top of NGL?

Seeing as NGL has two main solid stages it would not need an upper stage much larger than DCSS.
Though you couldn't use it as is since the two solids stages probably would have higher vibration and higher G accelerations than a CBC.
« Last Edit: 01/27/2018 06:02 pm by Patchouli »

Offline brickmack

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Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #118 on: 01/26/2018 08:15 pm »
Maybe I'm going crazy, but this upper stage is sounding more and more like the 4 meter DCSS. Surely there's some obvious difference I'm just blanking on.

And for fun either way, how well would the Delta upper stage work on top of NGL?

Why 4 meter? NGLs fairing is 5.25 meters wide. Should be able to support a pretty heavy upper stage too

Online catdlr

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Re: Orbital ATK NGL Rocket UPDATES/DISCUSSION
« Reply #119 on: 02/27/2018 08:59 pm »
In Production: Orbital ATK’s Next Generation Launch System


Orbital ATK
Published on Feb 27, 2018


Get an inside look at Orbital ATK’s Next Generation Launch System with engineer Katie Qian. We are currently developing the NGL family of rockets for the U.S. Air Force’s Evolved Expendable Launch Vehicle (EELV) program.

Learn more about NGL here: bit.ly/2f8mkWo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0i7WL9OBgc?t=001

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