Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 9  (Read 1798809 times)

Offline Bob Woods

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(FWIW, my daughter is getting her PhD in physics at the moment, and she's using the same copy of J.D. Jackson that me and her mom used for graduate physics. High current E/M microwave has some surprises when you apply it to accelerators (me - surprisingly relates to propulsion too), fusion plasmas (her mom), and planetary/cosmic phenomena (her), where RTI for the interface/"impedance match" is different (Euler function solution)). )

Must be interesting dinner conversations. Relativistically speaking.  ;D

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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(FWIW, my daughter is getting her PhD in physics at the moment, and she's using the same copy of J.D. Jackson that me and her mom used for graduate physics. High current E/M microwave has some surprises when you apply it to accelerators (me - surprisingly relates to propulsion too), fusion plasmas (her mom), and planetary/cosmic phenomena (her), where RTI for the interface/"impedance match" is different (Euler function solution)). )

Must be interesting dinner conversations. Relativistically speaking.  ;D
We try to keep the  γ from going to Γ  ::)

Offline spupeng7

Shell,
      maybe we should start a links page or such with a search bar so that newcomers can see the extent of what is available. Even just a list of the arxiv links already shared on this forum would help. If we all contributed our own collections it could be a thing. Any ideas?

This was one of the first primers I read almost two years ago when I started my quest for  actions within the closed cavity of an EMDrive. https://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedias/waveguide-primer
Then referenced many times...
https://archive.org/stream/ClassicalElectrodynamics/Jackson-ClassicalElectrodynamics#page/n253/mode/2up

There still exists some confusion (and rightly so) of the actions of microwaves in a closed resonating asymmetric waveguide. When your trying to comprehend actions of Electric, Magnetic fields, photons, trapped and accelerating particles, possibly plasma generation,  different TE TM modes, even evanescent wave actions and then how this Betty Crocker Blender maelstrom interacts with the materials of the frustum... IMHO it becomes much much more than just simple bouncing photons.

Needless to say I'm still learning and finding new material to explain the why. Currently I've over 2500 papers and links to something relevant with this drive.

My Very Best,
Shell

Corrected writing mistakes.
Optimism equals opportunity.

Offline SeeShells

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That would be a large undertaking and what I read now can be a moving target. i.e. My current buzz.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/307964475_Propagation_of_photons_in_a_medium_and_refractive_index

Let me think about it and open to ideas from the group as well.

My Very Best,
Shell

Shell,
      maybe we should start a links page or such with a search bar so that newcomers can see the extent of what is available. Even just a list of the arxiv links already shared on this forum would help. If we all contributed our own collections it could be a thing. Any ideas?

This was one of the first primers I read almost two years ago when I started my quest for  actions within the closed cavity of an EMDrive. https://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedias/waveguide-primer
Then referenced many times...
https://archive.org/stream/ClassicalElectrodynamics/Jackson-ClassicalElectrodynamics#page/n253/mode/2up

There still exists some confusion (and rightly so) of the actions of microwaves in a closed resonating asymmetric waveguide. When your trying to comprehend actions of Electric, Magnetic fields, photons, trapped and accelerating particles, possibly plasma generation,  different TE TM modes, even evanescent wave actions and then how this Betty Crocker Blender maelstrom interacts with the materials of the frustum... IMHO it becomes much much more than just simple bouncing photons.

Needless to say I'm still learning and finding new material to explain the why. Currently I've over 2500 papers and links to something relevant with this drive.

My Very Best,
Shell

Corrected writing mistakes.

Offline RERT

Hoping I can phrase a concise question about Physics:

Suppose a charged particle is being accelerated, but very slowly. The radiation emitted due to the acceleration would have a very long wavelength.

If there was a (?quantum?) cut-off which prevented radiation being emitted above a certain wavelength, or equivalently that the energy of the photon emitted was above some lower limit, then in principle momentum would cease to be conserved - or rather, behavior will become non-classical in some other way, I suppose.

My question for this audience is: does anybody know of any experiment or operational device which could either bound the wavelength threshold, or eliminate this as a feasible mechanism?

Offline qraal

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The paper referenced is here on the arXiv:

How the huge energy of quantum vacuum gravitates to drive the slow accelerating expansion of the Universe

...a *fun* read.

I can't decide if this is more topically related to this thread or to the Mach effect thread...

https://phys.org/news/2017-05-nature-great-puzzles-expansion-universe.html

Essentially it is about quantum vacuum energy dark energy and counter balancing small scale forces that lead to a tiny inflationary effect in cosmology. The relevance here is no one working on EM drives know what would cause the effect observed if it is not an artifact of experimental error. It could be this or it could be that or the other. So here is an "other" for us to consider. :)

Offline Rodal

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The paper referenced is here on the arXiv:

How the huge energy of quantum vacuum gravitates to drive the slow accelerating expansion of the Universe

...a *fun* read.

I can't decide if this is more topically related to this thread or to the Mach effect thread...

https://phys.org/news/2017-05-nature-great-puzzles-expansion-universe.html

Essentially it is about quantum vacuum energy dark energy and counter balancing small scale forces that lead to a tiny inflationary effect in cosmology. The relevance here is no one working on EM drives know what would cause the effect observed if it is not an artifact of experimental error. It could be this or it could be that or the other. So here is an "other" for us to consider. :)
It is interesting how much Leonard Susskind (famous for proving Hawking wrong in asserting that the information inside a black hole is lost forever) disagrees with the energy of dark energy "being huge": in Susskind's Stanford lectures on General Relativity (in YouTube) Susskind expresses his disaproval of the concept that there is much useful energy in dark energy making two statements (as I recall) 1) it is only over huge distances that dark energy overtakes gravity, dark energy working as a spring with a really tiny stiffness, thus according to Susskind there is no possibility of a "big rip" (he dismisses the "big rip" as a bad theory) and 2) it would take a volume of dark energy larger than the Moon to provide the same energy as a gallon of gas.  The effect of dark energy being appreciable only over cosmological distances.  According to this, dark energy should be really insignificant over the tiny length of the EM Drive.

You can see what Susskind says on this near the beginning of his second lecture on General Relativity (YouTube).

(I hope is this one, going by memory I have not looked at them for a long time..but I remember it is the one where he wears a black shirt and an aggravating student keep harping at the factor of 4 Pi  ;)  )

« Last Edit: 05/17/2017 09:02 pm by Rodal »

Offline Stormbringer

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Guys and Gals:

What the heck is this all about? I thought we had only had emergent or pseudo-monopoles.... what are they saying here? An emergent monopole decays into another form of emergent monopole? eh? "Cause monopoles are a big freaking deal if they are real.

https://phys.org/news/2017-05-destruction-quantum-monopole.html
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline SeeShells

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All,

A update on the shop.

Got paint on the walls, lights bought and hung and will start moving in the other machines, band saw, lathe, English wheel, buffers, grinders, tool boxes, extra doodads for the shop like hardware bins, racks etc.

Hope to maybe have enough room for my work bench area, but will see. If not then I have another workshop that's a 18'x20' that needs most everything from floors to insulation, walls and power.

My Very Best,
Shell

Offline Stormbringer

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English wheel? You making custom choppers? ceremonial plate mail?  ;D
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline SeeShells

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English wheel? You making custom choppers? ceremonial plate mail?  ;D
hehe no, I also restore old cars with my SO and sometimes it's needed. Just metal working.

Daily driver.

My Very Best,
Shell

Offline dustinthewind

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That would be a large undertaking and what I read now can be a moving target. i.e. My current buzz.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/307964475_Propagation_of_photons_in_a_medium_and_refractive_index

Let me think about it and open to ideas from the group as well.

My Very Best,
Shell

Shell,
      maybe we should start a links page or such with a search bar so that newcomers can see the extent of what is available. Even just a list of the arxiv links already shared on this forum would help. If we all contributed our own collections it could be a thing. Any ideas?

This was one of the first primers I read almost two years ago when I started my quest for  actions within the closed cavity of an EMDrive. https://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedias/waveguide-primer
Then referenced many times...
https://archive.org/stream/ClassicalElectrodynamics/Jackson-ClassicalElectrodynamics#page/n253/mode/2up

There still exists some confusion (and rightly so) of the actions of microwaves in a closed resonating asymmetric waveguide. When your trying to comprehend actions of Electric, Magnetic fields, photons, trapped and accelerating particles, possibly plasma generation,  different TE TM modes, even evanescent wave actions and then how this Betty Crocker Blender maelstrom interacts with the materials of the frustum... IMHO it becomes much much more than just simple bouncing photons.

Needless to say I'm still learning and finding new material to explain the why. Currently I've over 2500 papers and links to something relevant with this drive.

My Very Best,
Shell

Corrected writing mistakes.

"Propagation of photons in a medium and refractive index by Arbab I. Arbab" he states "The classical radii of the electron and photon are shown to be equal." which got me thinking again about how a photon may be a disturbance of overlapping electron-positron pairs in the vacuum.  An electric field disturbs them by a small amount and a thin shell may form that carries charge.  Its perimeter would be about that of an electron.  It would also have zero rest mass.  He cites the paper below which is also very interesting, "Weak Interaction and the Nature of Virtual Particles by Vladimir Konushko" which touches on the formation of matter from the vacuum. 

I find it interesting he suggest and has cites papers where they consider the photon having mass inside cavities, "Photons inside a waveguide as massive particles by Zhi-Yong Wang1, Cai-Dong Xiong" .  Too tired to read it all at the moment but it does look interesting. 

If for some reason the relative mass of the photon could change with respect to one side upon reflecting as opposed to the other is what I am interested in.  Some possibilities may be if light can be decelerated or lose energy then that energy should be given to the cavity.  There may be some phenomena of accelerating the vacuum in the process which would be related to the light undergoing some change in frame similar to when it tries to escape a gravitational well. 

I was contemplating light coming off the big plate straight up toward the apex.  Its would have direct momentum on the axis of the cone.  after the first reflection it would change slightly in angle for a very long cone.  2nd reflection would change more in angle till after many reflections its path would be perpendicular to the cones axis.  As the light changes in direction maybe its wavelength stretches as a result of losing momentum along that axis.  This might explain why the light appears to grow in wavelength near the apex along the cone axis while reducing in wavelength at the apex of the cone perpendicular to the axis. 

I was thinking of taking the sum of the many reflections for the light at the pointed end as it grows in wavelength with its mass reducing along that axis to get the sum of the energy exchanged to push the cone in the direction of the apex as opposed to a direct reflection off the flat plate with full effective energetic mass. 

I was considering a claim by some experimentalists that  putting a frustum directly on a scale big end pushes it into the scale while a free to move frustum tends to go apex end forward.  Maybe the mass of light being greater at the large end pushes on the large plate but the loss of energy by light pushing the cavity in that direction might accelerate the vacuum in the opposite direction.  Light being directly related to the vacuum as a frame of reference.  Deceleration of light in one direction being an acceleration of the frame.  The acceleration of the frame possibly being responsible for the acceleration in the direction of  the apex but then how could acceleration of the local frame over come the pressure of the light at the big end? 

Maybe put a scale with frustum horizontal on a pendulum to measure direct pressure from the big plate on the scale while pulsing it at the pendulum resonant frequency and see if there is an overall acceleration of the entire pendulum arm in the direction of the apex rather than the big plate to differentiate such an effect?  Not really sure...

Offline spupeng7

Hoping I can phrase a concise question about Physics:

Suppose a charged particle is being accelerated, but very slowly. The radiation emitted due to the acceleration would have a very long wavelength.

If there was a (?quantum?) cut-off which prevented radiation being emitted above a certain wavelength, or equivalently that the energy of the photon emitted was above some lower limit, then in principle momentum would cease to be conserved - or rather, behavior will become non-classical in some other way, I suppose.

My question for this audience is: does anybody know of any experiment or operational device which could either bound the wavelength threshold, or eliminate this as a feasible mechanism?
If electric current can move on the scale of a galactic cluster, I can think no reason why it cannot resonate to a million year cycle :J
Optimism equals opportunity.

Offline spupeng7

Guys and Gals:

What the heck is this all about? I thought we had only had emergent or pseudo-monopoles.... what are they saying here? An emergent monopole decays into another form of emergent monopole? eh? "Cause monopoles are a big freaking deal if they are real.

https://phys.org/news/2017-05-destruction-quantum-monopole.html
Well, I think magnetic monopoles are nonsense, so maybe I'm the wrong person to answer this question.
Optimism equals opportunity.

Offline qraal

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Hi

What you're describing seems to be a grasping of the ideas that led Mike McCulloch to his ideas about the Cosmological Casimir Effect and Inertia. The relevant acceleration is that seen in the out-skirts of Galaxies, where 'Dark Matter' or MOND is observed. So, observationally, something weird does happen. Inertia changes when the relevant waves are bigger than the particle horizon. Or something like that. It's controversial, but only because it's one option amongst many.

Adam

Hoping I can phrase a concise question about Physics:

Suppose a charged particle is being accelerated, but very slowly. The radiation emitted due to the acceleration would have a very long wavelength.

If there was a (?quantum?) cut-off which prevented radiation being emitted above a certain wavelength, or equivalently that the energy of the photon emitted was above some lower limit, then in principle momentum would cease to be conserved - or rather, behavior will become non-classical in some other way, I suppose.

My question for this audience is: does anybody know of any experiment or operational device which could either bound the wavelength threshold, or eliminate this as a feasible mechanism?

Offline meberbs

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Guys and Gals:

What the heck is this all about? I thought we had only had emergent or pseudo-monopoles.... what are they saying here? An emergent monopole decays into another form of emergent monopole? eh? "Cause monopoles are a big freaking deal if they are real.

https://phys.org/news/2017-05-destruction-quantum-monopole.html
Well, I think magnetic monopoles are nonsense, so maybe I'm the wrong person to answer this question.
I'm not sure why you think magnetic monopoles are nonsense, their behavior has a strong theoretical foundation, and if they exist it would actually help explain some things like charge quantization. Of course we haven't detected any, and they don't fit in the standard model, but they are the type of thing scientists could expect to show up as part of a very high energy extension to the standard model.

As for the article "An emergent monopole decays into another form of emergent monopole?" seems to be exactly what they are saying. I don't really understand how these fake monopoles work, what properties they have, or what the real importance of this research is, but it seems clear to me that while the system was reverting from the special monopole-like state they had put it in, it passed through a different type of monopole-like state.

Offline RERT

Definitely inspired by McCulloch, but different. Just questioning how an object as small as an electron can emit radiation with a wavelength, say, longer than the size of the universe, over a fraction of a second. What happens if it can't and that radiation is missing?

Offline ThatOtherGuy

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English wheel? You making custom choppers? ceremonial plate mail?  ;D
hehe no, I also restore old cars with my SO and sometimes it's needed. Just metal working.

Daily driver.

My Very Best,
Shell

Hey Shells, that's ready for Thunder Road or, either, you may add it a flux capacitor:)

Offline RotoSequence

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https://arxiv.org/abs/1703.00543

Quote from: Qingdi Wang, Zhen Zhu, William G. Unruh
Abstract:
We investigate the gravitational property of the quantum vacuum by treating its large energy density predicted by quantum field theory seriously and assuming that it does gravitate to obey the equivalence principle of general relativity. We find that the quantum vacuum would gravitate differently from what people previously thought. The consequence of this difference is an accelerating universe with a small Hubble expansion rate H∝Λe−βG√Λ→0 instead of the previous prediction H=8πGρvac/3−−−−−−−−√∝G−−√Λ2→∞ which was unbounded, as the high energy cutoff Λ is taken to infinity. In this sense, at least the "old" cosmological constant problem would be resolved. Moreover, it gives the observed slow rate of the accelerating expansion as Λ is taken to be some large value of the order of Planck energy or higher. This result suggests that there is no necessity to introduce the cosmological constant, which is required to be fine tuned to an accuracy of 10−120, or other forms of dark energy, which are required to have peculiar negative pressure, to explain the observed accelerating expansion of the Universe.

Offline dustinthewind

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Guys and Gals:

What the heck is this all about? I thought we had only had emergent or pseudo-monopoles.... what are they saying here? An emergent monopole decays into another form of emergent monopole? eh? "Cause monopoles are a big freaking deal if they are real.

https://phys.org/news/2017-05-destruction-quantum-monopole.html
Well, I think magnetic monopoles are nonsense, so maybe I'm the wrong person to answer this question.
I'm not sure why you think magnetic monopoles are nonsense, their behavior has a strong theoretical foundation, and if they exist it would actually help explain some things like charge quantization. Of course we haven't detected any, and they don't fit in the standard model, but they are the type of thing scientists could expect to show up as part of a very high energy extension to the standard model.

As for the article "An emergent monopole decays into another form of emergent monopole?" seems to be exactly what they are saying. I don't really understand how these fake monopoles work, what properties they have, or what the real importance of this research is, but it seems clear to me that while the system was reverting from the special monopole-like state they had put it in, it passed through a different type of monopole-like state.

I think one of the reasons he and many others may have a problem with mono-poles is within Maxwell's equations where the divergence of B = 0 



 http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/maxeq.html For the electric field of a charge we have divergence relating to electric field leaving the source



Magnetic field lines always loop around so there is no divergence from a shell encompassing a magnetic source.  Such a mono-pole could be encompassed by a shell and have magnetic field lines that leave the source and never return. 

My understanding of the magnetic field is it is a relativistic velocity dependent electric potential (electric field lines are perpendicular to the potential lines) where some charges are moving faster than others in the current loop (positive vs negative charges) so time causes unequal charge distribution in a current loop.  the result is a dipole electric field depending on direction and speed (velocity).  The dipole electric field is inherent in that we are usually dealing with a current loop.  Maybe if we eliminate such a loop but even an osculating antenna has a B field that always comes back around.  Maybe a photon could qualify in that it is absorbed as a quanta.  If it is absorbed at the edge of a shell the B field might only point in one direction (into/out of the shell), but ultimately the photon is absorbed by an osculating charge so were back to square one. 

I would be interested in how they think such a mono-pole could possibly exist.  Maybe some weird phenomena where one pole resides in our dimension and the other outside our dimension.  A higher dimensional magnet lets say.  A shell to us would be to a high dimension as maybe a circle.  Field lines would seem to appear in our dimension coming from a pole source of the higher dimension and then might become weaker till they disappear into another dimension, seeming to diverge from our shell? 

I would assume if mono-poles exist they would probably be connected to other dimensions. 
« Last Edit: 05/19/2017 12:24 am by dustinthewind »

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