Author Topic: Moon Express MX-1  (Read 108789 times)

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Moon Express MX-1
« Reply #120 on: 07/13/2017 04:36 pm »
Also, the Ames Common Bus that they worked with some years ago is no longer what they are using.  They have had two different designs since then.  I am more concerned with the constant changes (similarly for Astrobotic).
Original design used toroidal (donut) tank and stacked smaller on larger for bigger lander, would've resulted in different stage designs. They wanted to go as secondary payload on GTO missions, which would've meant complying with owner of missions demands.

Advent of Electron, Firefly and LauncherOne allowed them to buy whole LV starting at $5M. Hence change to new modular design. I'm guessing they designed for Electron first and foremost with bigger LauncherOne giving them two stage option. 

MX5 and MX9 clustering of stages is probably brilliant afterthought. Mass production of common stage helps keep build cost down. You've got give these guys   credit for thinking outside box.

I don't see any reason the MX1E won't fly,  maybe not in 2017. With this lander they have overcome the biggest barrier to space, launch cost.

« Last Edit: 07/13/2017 04:41 pm by TrevorMonty »

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Moon Express MX-1
« Reply #121 on: 07/13/2017 05:42 pm »
Also, the Ames Common Bus that they worked with some years ago is no longer what they are using.  They have had two different designs since then.  I am more concerned with the constant changes (similarly for Astrobotic).
Original design used toroidal (donut) tank and stacked smaller on larger for bigger lander, would've resulted in different stage designs. They wanted to go as secondary payload on GTO missions, which would've meant complying with owner of missions demands.

Advent of Electron, Firefly and LauncherOne allowed them to buy whole LV starting at $5M. Hence change to new modular design. I'm guessing they designed for Electron first and foremost with bigger LauncherOne giving them two stage option. 

MX5 and MX9 clustering of stages is probably brilliant afterthought. Mass production of common stage helps keep build cost down. You've got give these guys   credit for thinking outside box.

I don't see any reason the MX1E won't fly,  maybe not in 2017. With this lander they have overcome the biggest barrier to space, launch cost.

I don't believe the launch cost has ever been the biggest barrier to landing a probe on the Moon.

Where's the evidence that the money is there to build MX-1?  I haven't even seen any evidence they actually have the $5 million to pay for the Electron launch, let alone the lander.

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Re: Moon Express MX-1
« Reply #122 on: 07/13/2017 06:44 pm »
Where's the evidence that the money is there to build MX-1?  I haven't even seen any evidence they actually have the $5 million to pay for the Electron launch, let alone the lander.

From Eric Berger's article I cited yesterday:

Quote
Perhaps most intriguingly, Moon Express says it is self-funded to begin bringing kilograms of lunar rocks back to Earth within about three years. “We absolutely intend to make these samples available globally for scientific research, and make them available to collectors as well,” said Bob Richards, one of the company’s founders, in an interview with Ars.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/07/private-company-plans-to-bring-moon-rocks-back-to-earth-in-three-years/

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Moon Express MX-1
« Reply #123 on: 07/13/2017 08:58 pm »
Where's the evidence that the money is there to build MX-1?  I haven't even seen any evidence they actually have the $5 million to pay for the Electron launch, let alone the lander.

From Eric Berger's article I cited yesterday:

Quote
Perhaps most intriguingly, Moon Express says it is self-funded to begin bringing kilograms of lunar rocks back to Earth within about three years. “We absolutely intend to make these samples available globally for scientific research, and make them available to collectors as well,” said Bob Richards, one of the company’s founders, in an interview with Ars.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/07/private-company-plans-to-bring-moon-rocks-back-to-earth-in-three-years/

In what way is that evidence that they have the money?

You've seen the evidence up-thread that Naveen Jain has a history of lying about the finances of companies he has run, and the term "self-funded" is vague enough to be meaningless.  Companies sometimes use this term to mean that they hope to pre-sell products to fund their development.  Who knows what it means in this instance.

Online meberbs

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Re: Moon Express MX-1
« Reply #124 on: 07/14/2017 05:37 am »
Where's the evidence that the money is there to build MX-1?  I haven't even seen any evidence they actually have the $5 million to pay for the Electron launch, let alone the lander.

From Eric Berger's article I cited yesterday:

Quote
Perhaps most intriguingly, Moon Express says it is self-funded to begin bringing kilograms of lunar rocks back to Earth within about three years. “We absolutely intend to make these samples available globally for scientific research, and make them available to collectors as well,” said Bob Richards, one of the company’s founders, in an interview with Ars.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/07/private-company-plans-to-bring-moon-rocks-back-to-earth-in-three-years/

In what way is that evidence that they have the money?

You've seen the evidence up-thread that Naveen Jain has a history of lying about the finances of companies he has run, and the term "self-funded" is vague enough to be meaningless.  Companies sometimes use this term to mean that they hope to pre-sell products to fund their development.  Who knows what it means in this instance.
You asked about the money to build the lander. They literally are already building the lander. I haven't researched what funding sources they have had, but one way or another, they are spending that money now.

Offline synchrotron

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Re: Moon Express MX-1
« Reply #125 on: 07/14/2017 02:34 pm »
Moon Express shows off mockups, other providers' prototype hardware, and powerpoint slides. Their launch date has slipped year-for-year dating back to 2015. Why are they still getting coverage? Because they tweet?
They are still getting coverage because your statements about them are false. They have done tests including powered landing tests on their own hardware. The current expected launch is in less than six months, incompatible with your claim of year for year slips. Especially since expected launch was in 2017 as of 2015.

Maybe you have them confused for some other company.

edit: typo

Incorrect. Better check which post has the false statements.  Moon Express did not develop the landing technology. It's out of Ames.  They have not funded it and they are not the design authority.
Yours, on all counts. External funding, partnerships, etc. are an expected part of doing business. It doesn't matter if they got NASA funding or used NASA technology (which is available to U.S. companies for a reason). They have tested hardware, and they are building and testing the flight hardware.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAMPD65dvIY&feature=youtu.be

I repeat. They have not funded it and they are not the design authority. A prime contractor needs to be in charge of how the money is spent. Aligning yourself publicly via twitter and youtube with people who have funding and technologies in development does not make you the mission lead.

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Moon Express MX-1
« Reply #126 on: 07/14/2017 04:37 pm »
Where's the evidence that the money is there to build MX-1?  I haven't even seen any evidence they actually have the $5 million to pay for the Electron launch, let alone the lander.

From Eric Berger's article I cited yesterday:

Quote
Perhaps most intriguingly, Moon Express says it is self-funded to begin bringing kilograms of lunar rocks back to Earth within about three years. “We absolutely intend to make these samples available globally for scientific research, and make them available to collectors as well,” said Bob Richards, one of the company’s founders, in an interview with Ars.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/07/private-company-plans-to-bring-moon-rocks-back-to-earth-in-three-years/

In what way is that evidence that they have the money?

You've seen the evidence up-thread that Naveen Jain has a history of lying about the finances of companies he has run, and the term "self-funded" is vague enough to be meaningless.  Companies sometimes use this term to mean that they hope to pre-sell products to fund their development.  Who knows what it means in this instance.
You asked about the money to build the lander. They literally are already building the lander. I haven't researched what funding sources they have had, but one way or another, they are spending that money now.

Having the money to start building a few parts is not the same as having the money to complete the job.

Online meberbs

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Re: Moon Express MX-1
« Reply #127 on: 07/14/2017 04:52 pm »
Moon Express shows off mockups, other providers' prototype hardware, and powerpoint slides. Their launch date has slipped year-for-year dating back to 2015. Why are they still getting coverage? Because they tweet?
They are still getting coverage because your statements about them are false. They have done tests including powered landing tests on their own hardware. The current expected launch is in less than six months, incompatible with your claim of year for year slips. Especially since expected launch was in 2017 as of 2015.

Maybe you have them confused for some other company.

edit: typo

Incorrect. Better check which post has the false statements.  Moon Express did not develop the landing technology. It's out of Ames.  They have not funded it and they are not the design authority.
Yours, on all counts. External funding, partnerships, etc. are an expected part of doing business. It doesn't matter if they got NASA funding or used NASA technology (which is available to U.S. companies for a reason). They have tested hardware, and they are building and testing the flight hardware.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAMPD65dvIY&feature=youtu.be

I repeat. They have not funded it and they are not the design authority. A prime contractor needs to be in charge of how the money is spent. Aligning yourself publicly via twitter and youtube with people who have funding and technologies in development does not make you the mission lead.
So who is this mystery organization that is letting Moon Express take credit for all of their accomplishments?

Are you claiming this is somehow an unauthorized NASA mission, where the truth of the situation is being cleverly hidden from the organizers of the google lunar x-prize?

Are you claiming that Moon Express's employees just sit around and do PR pieces and none of them have done any design work at all on the missions they claim to be selling?

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Moon Express MX-1
« Reply #128 on: 07/14/2017 07:14 pm »
Where's the evidence that the money is there to build MX-1?  I haven't even seen any evidence they actually have the $5 million to pay for the Electron launch, let alone the lander.

From Eric Berger's article I cited yesterday:

Quote
Perhaps most intriguingly, Moon Express says it is self-funded to begin bringing kilograms of lunar rocks back to Earth within about three years. “We absolutely intend to make these samples available globally for scientific research, and make them available to collectors as well,” said Bob Richards, one of the company’s founders, in an interview with Ars.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/07/private-company-plans-to-bring-moon-rocks-back-to-earth-in-three-years/

In what way is that evidence that they have the money?

You've seen the evidence up-thread that Naveen Jain has a history of lying about the finances of companies he has run, and the term "self-funded" is vague enough to be meaningless.  Companies sometimes use this term to mean that they hope to pre-sell products to fund their development.  Who knows what it means in this instance.
You asked about the money to build the lander. They literally are already building the lander. I haven't researched what funding sources they have had, but one way or another, they are spending that money now.

Having the money to start building a few parts is not the same as having the money to complete the job.
I going to assume GLXP admin team, NASA lunar CATALYST team and RL have lot more insight into MX business operations than we do.

Drop this discussion, unless you can come up with written evident MX doesn't have finances to complete MX1 and launch.

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Moon Express MX-1
« Reply #129 on: 07/14/2017 07:51 pm »
Where's the evidence that the money is there to build MX-1?  I haven't even seen any evidence they actually have the $5 million to pay for the Electron launch, let alone the lander.

From Eric Berger's article I cited yesterday:

Quote
Perhaps most intriguingly, Moon Express says it is self-funded to begin bringing kilograms of lunar rocks back to Earth within about three years. “We absolutely intend to make these samples available globally for scientific research, and make them available to collectors as well,” said Bob Richards, one of the company’s founders, in an interview with Ars.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/07/private-company-plans-to-bring-moon-rocks-back-to-earth-in-three-years/

In what way is that evidence that they have the money?

You've seen the evidence up-thread that Naveen Jain has a history of lying about the finances of companies he has run, and the term "self-funded" is vague enough to be meaningless.  Companies sometimes use this term to mean that they hope to pre-sell products to fund their development.  Who knows what it means in this instance.
You asked about the money to build the lander. They literally are already building the lander. I haven't researched what funding sources they have had, but one way or another, they are spending that money now.

Having the money to start building a few parts is not the same as having the money to complete the job.
I going to assume GLXP admin team, NASA lunar CATALYST team and RL have lot more insight into MX business operations than we do.

Drop this discussion, unless you can come up with written evident MX doesn't have finances to complete MX1 and launch.

I have as much right to comment here as you do.  It's perfectly legitimate to question whether something is true without having evidence it isn't true.  In fact, it would be horrible if people just blindly believed everything someone claimed and felt unwelcome questioning it unless they had proof it wasn't true.


Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Moon Express MX-1
« Reply #130 on: 07/14/2017 07:55 pm »
Also, it's not the job of the GLXP admin team or NASA lunar CATALYST team to look into the finances of Moon Expression.  They're not vouching for their finances.  And RocketLab have no reason to do so either.  If someone wants to publicly say they're a customer of RocketLab, it's good for RocketLab whether they actually have the money or not.  And, as far as RocketLab is concerned, maybe Moon Express will eventually get the money.  It's no skin off their back to have them sign up as a customer, no matter how unlikely they are to actually buy a launch eventually.
« Last Edit: 07/14/2017 07:55 pm by ChrisWilson68 »

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Moon Express MX-1
« Reply #131 on: 07/14/2017 10:40 pm »
Jan17 they had $40m cash injection. Should be enough to build a couple of MX1 landers and pay for their RL launches.

http://pitchbook.com/profiles/moon-express-profile-investors-funding-valuation-and-analysis

They are not relying on $20m XPrize it is definitely worth going for.

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Moon Express MX-1
« Reply #132 on: 07/15/2017 12:11 am »
Jan17 they had $40m cash injection. Should be enough to build a couple of MX1 landers and pay for their RL launches.

http://pitchbook.com/profiles/moon-express-profile-investors-funding-valuation-and-analysis

They are not relying on $20m XPrize it is definitely worth going for.

You're right, it does look like they raised $40 million.

I'm skeptical about whether that's enough to build even a single MX-1 lander, but it gets them off to a good start.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Moon Express MX-1
« Reply #133 on: 07/15/2017 12:58 am »
Being able to scale design to suit mission and LV is big plus.

MX5 is ideal for PSLV or Vega.

MX9 at 2,500kg can use F9R or ISRO GSLV. 

I do think MX2 on LauncherOne is probably most useful. With lander + LV around $20m and useful payload to anywhere on moon.
MX1/RL for BLEO cubesat/ smallsat missions.

Offline catdlr

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Re: Moon Express MX-1
« Reply #134 on: 07/16/2017 03:06 am »
Moon Express Expedition 1: Lunar Scout

Moon Express
Published on Jul 15, 2017

EXPEDITION ONE: LUNAR SCOUT
THE 1ST COMMERCIAL VOYAGE TO THE MOON
The Lunar Scout expedition will be the first commercial voyage to the Moon. This historic expedition will demonstrate the cost effectiveness of entrepreneurial approaches to space exploration, carrying a diverse manifest of payloads including the International Lunar Observatory, “MoonLight” by the INFN National Laboratories of Frascati and the University of Maryland, a Celestis memorial flight, Following completion of operations supporting our Lunar Scout expedition partners, we will attempt to win the $20M Google Lunar XPRIZE.



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Offline catdlr

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Re: Moon Express MX-1
« Reply #135 on: 07/16/2017 03:07 am »
Moon Express Expedition 2: Lunar Outpost

Moon Express
Published on Jul 15, 2017


EXPEDITION TWO: LUNAR OUTPOST
THE 1ST COMMERCIAL SOUTH POLE EXPEDITION
The Lunar Outpost expedition will enable the first commercial presence and exploration of the lunar South Pole. The poles of the Moon have concentrations of water and other valuable resources, as well as “peaks of eternal light” where permanent sunshine and direct continuous communication with Earth is possible. The primary goals of this mission are to set up the first lunar research outpost, the prospect for water and useful minerals, and accommodate a variety of research instruments for our expedition partners.



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Offline catdlr

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Re: Moon Express MX-1
« Reply #136 on: 07/16/2017 03:08 am »
Moon Express Expedition 3: Harvest Moon

Moon Express
Published on Jul 15, 2017


EXPEDITION THREE: HARVEST MOON
THE 1ST COMMERCIAL LUNAR SAMPLE RETURN
The Harvest Moon expedition will take place by 2020 and includes the first commercial sample return mission, which also begins the business phase of lunar resource prospecting. The lunar samples brought back will be the only privately owned Moon materials on Earth and will be used to benefit science as well as commercial purposes.



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Offline synchrotron

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Re: Moon Express MX-1
« Reply #137 on: 07/17/2017 01:54 pm »
Moon Express shows off mockups, other providers' prototype hardware, and powerpoint slides. Their launch date has slipped year-for-year dating back to 2015. Why are they still getting coverage? Because they tweet?
They are still getting coverage because your statements about them are false. They have done tests including powered landing tests on their own hardware. The current expected launch is in less than six months, incompatible with your claim of year for year slips. Especially since expected launch was in 2017 as of 2015.

Maybe you have them confused for some other company.

edit: typo

Incorrect. Better check which post has the false statements.  Moon Express did not develop the landing technology. It's out of Ames.  They have not funded it and they are not the design authority.
Yours, on all counts. External funding, partnerships, etc. are an expected part of doing business. It doesn't matter if they got NASA funding or used NASA technology (which is available to U.S. companies for a reason). They have tested hardware, and they are building and testing the flight hardware.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAMPD65dvIY&feature=youtu.be

I repeat. They have not funded it and they are not the design authority. A prime contractor needs to be in charge of how the money is spent. Aligning yourself publicly via twitter and youtube with people who have funding and technologies in development does not make you the mission lead.
So who is this mystery organization that is letting Moon Express take credit for all of their accomplishments?

Are you claiming this is somehow an unauthorized NASA mission, where the truth of the situation is being cleverly hidden from the organizers of the google lunar x-prize?

Are you claiming that Moon Express's employees just sit around and do PR pieces and none of them have done any design work at all on the missions they claim to be selling?

Yes, it appears to me that most of the activity is PR. I have not said that any NASA center is doing anything unauthorized - you are making stuff up. No NASA entities are touting that there is a Moon Express mission in the offing.

If it's not all just PR, can you tell me who is on the Moon Express design team? Who is the chief engineer? Or has any spacecraft equipment organization received a request for proposal for a flight delivery from Moon Express? If launch is in Q2 2019, they must be a year away from delivering flight units for integration into the spacecraft. Why no tweets of the copious amounts of hardware they are building? They seem to have time to send out CGI graphics of the "mission after then next one we gonna fly", so it can't just be that they are too busy.

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Re: Moon Express MX-1
« Reply #138 on: 07/17/2017 02:38 pm »
I repeat. They have not funded it and they are not the design authority. A prime contractor needs to be in charge of how the money is spent. Aligning yourself publicly via twitter and youtube with people who have funding and technologies in development does not make you the mission lead.
So who is this mystery organization that is letting Moon Express take credit for all of their accomplishments?

Are you claiming this is somehow an unauthorized NASA mission, where the truth of the situation is being cleverly hidden from the organizers of the google lunar x-prize?

Are you claiming that Moon Express's employees just sit around and do PR pieces and none of them have done any design work at all on the missions they claim to be selling?

Yes, it appears to me that most of the activity is PR. I have not said that any NASA center is doing anything unauthorized - you are making stuff up. No NASA entities are touting that there is a Moon Express mission in the offing.

If it's not all just PR, can you tell me who is on the Moon Express design team? Who is the chief engineer? Or has any spacecraft equipment organization received a request for proposal for a flight delivery from Moon Express? If launch is in Q2 2019, they must be a year away from delivering flight units for integration into the spacecraft. Why no tweets of the copious amounts of hardware they are building? They seem to have time to send out CGI graphics of the "mission after then next one we gonna fly", so it can't just be that they are too busy.
They have already built and tested hardware in the past. You are the one who needs to answer who did that if it wasn't Moon Express. I was not making stuff up, but trying to figure out what you were talking about when you claimed they didn't do the funding or designing, yet didn't explain who did. You imagining some NASA conspiracy was the only explanation I could come up with for your nonsensical statements.

As for their team, go look up the company on linkedin. The company profile shows 39 employees, of which 21 are on linked in based on the search results I linked.

Quote
If launch is in Q2 2019, they must be a year away from delivering flight units for integration into the spacecraft.
Even major spacecraft aren't delivered until a few months before, not a year in advance, and especially for a smallsat, 2 years before a launch it wouldn't need to be started.

Anyway, you again seem to be talking about an entirely different company since as I already stated, planned launch is by the end of the year, which is why your original claim about year-for-year slips was wrong. As for hardware for this launch, they have stated they are in  component assembly and test. This does make it seem extremely difficult for them to make the end of year deadline (not quite impossible yet). Ideally, they would be getting started on spacecraft I&T by now.

Offline GWH

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Re: Moon Express MX-1
« Reply #139 on: 07/21/2017 05:38 pm »
Development contract announced with International Lunar Observatory Association to land an observation station at the Lunar South Pole in 2019:

http://moonexpress.com/news/moon-express-announces-lunar-south-pole-mission-technology-development-contract-international-lunar-observatory-association/

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