Thanks! If only I could draw people and animals...
Here's a guerilla Lunar Mission design I did earlier: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=25486.msg755692#msg755692
http://www.nss.org/settlement/moon/ELA.htmlThis vehicle design has a low enough mass that it could probably be done in one launch of a Falcon Heavy. The total mass listed is 25.72 tonnes for the lander plus 27 tonnes for the propulsion stage, for a total mass of 52.72 tonnes - just under the 53 tonne payload limit.
I don't know what the TLI payload for the FH is - been asking around and haven't gotten a response.JR
"Moon Dragon"...How much delta-v is needed for this mission to work on these thrusters?
Or, you could build your propellant depot in low earth orbit, assemble the full return vehicle/lander/injection stage at the depot, and the proceed on the moon for a direct landing of the lander and return vehicle. This is the Project Horizon option.
I was doing a what if:Using a vac optimized SD (ISP 290s) on a stretched Dragon Trunk with a 5,000 kg prop load on top of its normal Dragon and Trunk weight of 9,500kg bringing total weight to 15,000kg, the TLI payload weight of an FH, then this configuration would have a “CSM” like delta V of 1.15km/s. This is sufficient to dock with an EML1/2 Gateway and do the return burn to deliver cargo or crew to the Gateway (return is ~.7km/s leaving ~.4km/s for maneuvering to the Gateway, without burning any of the Dragon’s internal prop load except for RCS tasks.This is just to show that the SD’s have a far greater possible use than just as a LAS in SpaceX’s future.For the Moon Dragon to and from EML1/2 is the extent all the existing or soon too exist propulsion and spacecraft elements can do. If you’re looking to land a Dragon on the surface there is just not enough capability to do it with the existing or soon to exist systems.
Quote from: oldAtlas_Eguy on 02/02/2012 06:35 pmI was doing a what if:Using a vac optimized SD (ISP 290s) on a stretched Dragon Trunk with a 5,000 kg prop load on top of its normal Dragon and Trunk weight of 9,500kg bringing total weight to 15,000kg, the TLI payload weight of an FH, then this configuration would have a “CSM” like delta V of 1.15km/s. This is sufficient to dock with an EML1/2 Gateway and do the return burn to deliver cargo or crew to the Gateway (return is ~.7km/s leaving ~.4km/s for maneuvering to the Gateway, without burning any of the Dragon’s internal prop load except for RCS tasks.This is just to show that the SD’s have a far greater possible use than just as a LAS in SpaceX’s future.For the Moon Dragon to and from EML1/2 is the extent all the existing or soon too exist propulsion and spacecraft elements can do. If you’re looking to land a Dragon on the surface there is just not enough capability to do it with the existing or soon to exist systems. Having all that prop in the Trunk isn't going to leave much mass for groceries. Is it?
Quote from: ChefPat on 02/02/2012 07:51 pmQuote from: oldAtlas_Eguy on 02/02/2012 06:35 pmI was doing a what if:Using a vac optimized SD (ISP 290s) on a stretched Dragon Trunk with a 5,000 kg prop load on top of its normal Dragon and Trunk weight of 9,500kg bringing total weight to 15,000kg, the TLI payload weight of an FH, then this configuration would have a “CSM” like delta V of 1.15km/s. This is sufficient to dock with an EML1/2 Gateway and do the return burn to deliver cargo or crew to the Gateway (return is ~.7km/s leaving ~.4km/s for maneuvering to the Gateway, without burning any of the Dragon’s internal prop load except for RCS tasks.This is just to show that the SD’s have a far greater possible use than just as a LAS in SpaceX’s future.For the Moon Dragon to and from EML1/2 is the extent all the existing or soon too exist propulsion and spacecraft elements can do. If you’re looking to land a Dragon on the surface there is just not enough capability to do it with the existing or soon to exist systems. Having all that prop in the Trunk isn't going to leave much mass for groceries. Is it?Normal Dragon with groceries is 9,500kg. So yes it would have a full load of groceries or full load of crew. The exception is for crew though with a trade of number of crew for increased radiation protection, cargo dosn't require the additional rad protection and if some of it does then the cargo item can carry its own additional rad protection.
Quote from: oldAtlas_Eguy on 02/02/2012 07:59 pmQuote from: ChefPat on 02/02/2012 07:51 pmQuote from: oldAtlas_Eguy on 02/02/2012 06:35 pmI was doing a what if:Using a vac optimized SD (ISP 290s) on a stretched Dragon Trunk with a 5,000 kg prop load on top of its normal Dragon and Trunk weight of 9,500kg bringing total weight to 15,000kg, the TLI payload weight of an FH, then this configuration would have a “CSM” like delta V of 1.15km/s. This is sufficient to dock with an EML1/2 Gateway and do the return burn to deliver cargo or crew to the Gateway (return is ~.7km/s leaving ~.4km/s for maneuvering to the Gateway, without burning any of the Dragon’s internal prop load except for RCS tasks.This is just to show that the SD’s have a far greater possible use than just as a LAS in SpaceX’s future.For the Moon Dragon to and from EML1/2 is the extent all the existing or soon too exist propulsion and spacecraft elements can do. If you’re looking to land a Dragon on the surface there is just not enough capability to do it with the existing or soon to exist systems. Having all that prop in the Trunk isn't going to leave much mass for groceries. Is it?Normal Dragon with groceries is 9,500kg. So yes it would have a full load of groceries or full load of crew. The exception is for crew though with a trade of number of crew for increased radiation protection, cargo dosn't require the additional rad protection and if some of it does then the cargo item can carry its own additional rad protection.Radiation protection, to zeroth order, is just mass (especially mass with hydrogen, such as water). Use the cargo as radiation protection.
Having all that prop in the Trunk isn't going to leave much mass for groceries. Is it?
Quote from: Robotbeat on 02/02/2012 08:01 pmQuote from: oldAtlas_Eguy on 02/02/2012 07:59 pmQuote from: ChefPat on 02/02/2012 07:51 pmQuote from: oldAtlas_Eguy on 02/02/2012 06:35 pmNormal Dragon with groceries is 9,500kg. So yes it would have a full load of groceries or full load of crew. The exception is for crew though with a trade of number of crew for increased radiation protection, cargo dosn't require the additional rad protection and if some of it does then the cargo item can carry its own additional rad protection.Radiation protection, to zeroth order, is just mass (especially mass with hydrogen, such as water). Use the cargo as radiation protection.After I replied I thought of using the inevitable water cargo as rad protection of the other cargo or crew. Water at the Gateway has a lot of usage so extra water is always welcome.Edit: P.S. You beat me to it.
Quote from: oldAtlas_Eguy on 02/02/2012 07:59 pmQuote from: ChefPat on 02/02/2012 07:51 pmQuote from: oldAtlas_Eguy on 02/02/2012 06:35 pmNormal Dragon with groceries is 9,500kg. So yes it would have a full load of groceries or full load of crew. The exception is for crew though with a trade of number of crew for increased radiation protection, cargo dosn't require the additional rad protection and if some of it does then the cargo item can carry its own additional rad protection.Radiation protection, to zeroth order, is just mass (especially mass with hydrogen, such as water). Use the cargo as radiation protection.
Quote from: ChefPat on 02/02/2012 07:51 pmQuote from: oldAtlas_Eguy on 02/02/2012 06:35 pmNormal Dragon with groceries is 9,500kg. So yes it would have a full load of groceries or full load of crew. The exception is for crew though with a trade of number of crew for increased radiation protection, cargo dosn't require the additional rad protection and if some of it does then the cargo item can carry its own additional rad protection.
Quote from: oldAtlas_Eguy on 02/02/2012 06:35 pm
Transcript:Our work has shown that several different agents, all characterized as dietary supplement agents, can affect space radiation-induced biologic endpoints, including cytotoxicity, the induction of malignant transformation in cells cultured in vitro, and the total antioxidant status of animals, which is a biomarker related to the ability of the animal to handle radiation-induced oxidative stress.