Author Topic: Future of Prospective Raptor Upper Stage  (Read 110309 times)

Offline Horace Grumpford

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Future of Prospective Raptor Upper Stage
« on: 08/28/2010 09:40 pm »
I realize that SpaceX still has not released any details regarding the potential Raptor Upper Stage they seem to be developing (other than specifying LH2 and LOX as propellant) but it seems like it will probably be comparable to the Centaur US (possibly boosting F9's performance to ~30,000 lbs).  My guess is that they'll try and use the simplest hydrolox engine design they can get away with.  I expect to see something similar in performance to the RL-10B-2 (~24,000 lbs thrust, used on Delta IV second stage).  I think the reliability and high efficiency of a closed-loop expander cycle would make sense.

By the way, I started this thread because I didn't see one about Raptor, so feel free to discuss anything Raptor-related.
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Offline Jim

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Re: Future of Prospective Raptor Upper Stage
« Reply #1 on: 08/28/2010 09:46 pm »

By the way, I started this thread because I didn't see one about Raptor,

Because the discussions are here

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=21873.0

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Offline Horace Grumpford

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Re: Future of Prospective Raptor Upper Stage
« Reply #3 on: 08/28/2010 11:21 pm »
Ah!  Thank you!
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Offline Damon Hill

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Re: Future of Prospective Raptor Upper Stage
« Reply #4 on: 08/30/2010 07:40 am »
I realize that SpaceX still has not released any details regarding the potential Raptor Upper Stage they seem to be developing (other than specifying LH2 and LOX as propellant) but it seems like it will probably be comparable to the Centaur US (possibly boosting F9's performance to ~30,000 lbs).  My guess is that they'll try and use the simplest hydrolox engine design they can get away with.  I expect to see something similar in performance to the RL-10B-2 (~24,000 lbs thrust, used on Delta IV second stage).  I think the reliability and high efficiency of a closed-loop expander cycle would make sense.

From the information SpaceX has released, it appears the Raptor engine will be a staged combustion design quite a lot more powerful than the RL10, with an Isp of 470 seconds--a very advanced design.

The stage will probably more resemble a Delta 4 upper stage rather than the Centaur, allowing the use of existing tooling and materials.

Offline madscientist197

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Re: Future of Prospective Raptor Upper Stage
« Reply #5 on: 08/30/2010 09:23 am »
Who's existing tooling? Boeing is not likely to be building the upper stage for SpaceX.
John

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Re: Future of Prospective Raptor Upper Stage
« Reply #6 on: 08/30/2010 12:16 pm »
I realize that SpaceX still has not released any details regarding the potential Raptor Upper Stage they seem to be developing (other than specifying LH2 and LOX as propellant) but it seems like it will probably be comparable to the Centaur US (possibly boosting F9's performance to ~30,000 lbs).  My guess is that they'll try and use the simplest hydrolox engine design they can get away with.  I expect to see something similar in performance to the RL-10B-2 (~24,000 lbs thrust, used on Delta IV second stage).  I think the reliability and high efficiency of a closed-loop expander cycle would make sense.

From the information SpaceX has released, it appears the Raptor engine will be a staged combustion design quite a lot more powerful than the RL10, with an Isp of 470 seconds--a very advanced design.

About 6x RL-10 thrust but better Isp, so one engine could be used in an equivalent to the J-246 upper stage. This would perform very well if the T/W is OK.

It's also about 2.5x RL-60 thrust at similar Isp, so 2x Raptor could be at least equivalent to the J-244 config, which is the highest performing of all the Jupiter configs (again, assuming the T/W is OK).

cheers, Martin

PS standard warnings about paper engines.

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Future of Prospective Raptor Upper Stage
« Reply #7 on: 08/30/2010 02:24 pm »
Who's existing tooling? Boeing is not likely to be building the upper stage for SpaceX.

I think he was referencing to SpaceX's existing tools. Centaur is a Stainless balloon tank design not an Al self supporting tank design.

Though, I would not be surprised if SpaceX decided to push the envelope and went with a common bulkhead design... That would look more "Centaur" like.
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Offline Horace Grumpford

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Re: Future of Prospective Raptor Upper Stage
« Reply #8 on: 08/30/2010 05:36 pm »
I looked on the forums mentined above and 150,000 lbs of thrust seems like it might be just a tetch enormous.  It would  pretty much make Falcon 9 the only rocket in the world (I think) to put the least powerful stage in the middle of the stack.
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Offline Hauerg

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Re: Future of Prospective Raptor Upper Stage
« Reply #9 on: 08/30/2010 05:51 pm »
I looked on the forums mentined above and 150,000 lbs of thrust seems like it might be just a tetch enormous.  It would  pretty much make Falcon 9 the only rocket in the world (I think) to put the least powerful stage in the middle of the stack.

???????

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Re: Future of Prospective Raptor Upper Stage
« Reply #10 on: 08/30/2010 06:05 pm »
Though, I would not be surprised if SpaceX decided to push the envelope and went with a common bulkhead design... That would look more "Centaur" like.

My understanding is that all SpaceX tanks so far have been common bulkhead.  The more demanding thermal characteristics of LH2 may make the common bulkhead more challenging (MSFC would not attempt it for the Ares upper stages), but SpaceX already has the kerolox common bulkhead worked out.

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Re: Future of Prospective Raptor Upper Stage
« Reply #11 on: 08/30/2010 06:38 pm »
Though, I would not be surprised if SpaceX decided to push the envelope and went with a common bulkhead design... That would look more "Centaur" like.

My understanding is that all SpaceX tanks so far have been common bulkhead.  The more demanding thermal characteristics of LH2 may make the common bulkhead more challenging (MSFC would not attempt it for the Ares upper stages), but SpaceX already has the kerolox common bulkhead worked out.

I believe AIUS changed to common bulkhead some time ago, and ULAs proposed ACES also uses this.

cheers, Martin

Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: Future of Prospective Raptor Upper Stage
« Reply #12 on: 08/30/2010 07:26 pm »
I looked on the forums mentined above and 150,000 lbs of thrust seems like it might be just a tetch enormous.  It would  pretty much make Falcon 9 the only rocket in the world (I think) to put the least powerful stage in the middle of the stack.

I might be wrong, but I think you'll find that Raptor is an alternative to the existing Merlin-1e kerolox upper stage, not an addition.  So, after introduction of Raptor, F-9s would fly with either a Merlin-1e or a Raptor, not both.
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Offline Horace Grumpford

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Re: Future of Prospective Raptor Upper Stage
« Reply #13 on: 08/31/2010 06:57 am »
That makes so much more sense.  I thought it was going to be a third stage.  And what do you mean by Merlin-1e?  Is that simply the name for the vacuum Merlin, or a soon-to-be Merlin-1c replacement?

Forgive my noobishness.
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Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: Future of Prospective Raptor Upper Stage
« Reply #14 on: 08/31/2010 07:02 am »
That makes so much more sense.  I thought it was going to be a third stage.  And what do you mean by Merlin-1e?  Is that simply the name for the vacuum Merlin, or a soon-to-be Merlin-1c replacement?

Don't be.  At least you're asking politely.

Merlin-1e is the vacuum version of the Merlin (it has some differences to the core stage version).  The new core version of Merlin is known as Merlin-1d.
« Last Edit: 08/31/2010 07:02 am by Ben the Space Brit »
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Offline ugordan

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Re: Future of Prospective Raptor Upper Stage
« Reply #15 on: 08/31/2010 10:21 am »
It's not called Merlin 1e, it's called simply Merlin Vacuum or short, MVac.

Offline Lars_J

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Re: Future of Prospective Raptor Upper Stage
« Reply #16 on: 08/31/2010 04:24 pm »
Merlin-1e is the vacuum version of the Merlin (it has some differences to the core stage version).  The new core version of Merlin is known as Merlin-1d.

Yeah, but no-one else has called it Merlin 1e as far as I have read either. Source?

Because the Merlin-Vacuum or MVac predates the 1d, so it makes no sense anyway.
« Last Edit: 08/31/2010 04:26 pm by Lars_J »

Offline Horace Grumpford

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Re: Future of Prospective Raptor Upper Stage
« Reply #17 on: 09/01/2010 02:30 am »
Gotcha.  Thanks.
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Offline go4mars

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Re: Future of Prospective Raptor Upper Stage
« Reply #18 on: 07/13/2011 09:57 pm »
There seems to be different categories of projects:

Category 1)  There is the official trumpeted stuff (come buy expendable launches (F9 or FH) from the Cape or Vandenberg). 

Catergory 2)  There is the quieter stuff but still out there (dragonlab, larger PLF available*, propulsive landing)

Category 3)  Then there is the stuff that seems to be in the weeds (Merlin 2, raptor stage, Texas launch site, Superheavy lift, reusability, making life multi-planetary) but might come to the limelight soon. 

Do you think that the Category 3 type stuff will be announced one at a time, or mostly at the same time?  Will it be before the IPO, during the IPO process, or after the IPO?


Any predictions for when the raptor stage is officially on the list of available choices? 
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Offline Jim

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Re: Future of Prospective Raptor Upper Stage
« Reply #19 on: 07/14/2011 12:32 am »
There seems to be different categories of projects:

Category 1)  There is the official trumpeted stuff (come buy expendable launches (F9 or FH) from the Cape or Vandenberg). 

Catergory 2)  There is the quieter stuff but still out there (dragonlab, larger PLF available*, propulsive landing)

Category 3)  Then there is the stuff that seems to be in the weeds (Merlin 2, raptor stage, Texas launch site, Superheavy lift, reusability, making life multi-planetary) but might come to the limelight soon. 

Do you think that the Category 3 type stuff will be announced one at a time, or mostly at the same time?  Will it be before the IPO, during the IPO process, or after the IPO?


Any predictions for when the raptor stage is officially on the list of available choices? 


 "Superheavy lift and making life multi-planetary"  not for decades.

No need for raptor near term

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