Author Topic: China's manned Moon plans  (Read 140141 times)

Offline Moe Grills

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Re: China's manned Moon plans
« Reply #140 on: 10/01/2011 05:12 pm »
Of course, I know from experience in studying the Soviet space programme in the 1970s and 1980s it is far easier to calculate what might happen and invent imaginary space missions than it is to predict what might happen.

So, please bear this in mind with what follows.

Two CZ-5 launches, one with a fulled TLI stage, ~25 tonnes, and the second with a Tiangong class module with an LOI stage.   Dock the two in LEO and fly to selenocentric orbit.

Then follow Scott Pace's idea of two CZ-5 launches,

Hey, Phil! I don't want to blow my own horn, but I already posted a
similar concept on a previous post back there, if you care to look, in which two CZ-5's, two 25-tonne hypergolic propulsion modules, a beefed up Shenzhou & an open cockpit one-man lunar lander are used.

Quote
This could be an intermediate stage before the heavy lift launcher comes online for a Chinese landing, allowing a manned reconnaissance from selenocentric orbit.
(a 2500kg open cockpit one-man lunar-lander can go BEYOND that
scenario using two CZ-5's, and one additional medium launcher for a beefed up Shenzhou and the aforementioned lander.
Quote
Just a thought and no proof that this would happen, of course!

   Would you be surprised to learn there are professional lurkers from Communist China's space program fishing for different ideas and concepts (of possible benefit to China) on this website?

Offline i2000s

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Re: China's manned Moon plans
« Reply #141 on: 11/03/2011 10:43 pm »
   Would you be surprised to learn there are professional lurkers from Communist China's space program fishing for different ideas and concepts (of possible benefit to China) on this website?


Don't worry. Some years later you might be happy to find that only can Communist China be able to make your idea come true.  ;)

Offline spectre9

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Re: China's manned Moon plans
« Reply #142 on: 11/04/2011 03:28 am »
Who knows how many lunar lander designs NASA has been through.

Only 1 ever got built.  :D

Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: China's manned Moon plans
« Reply #143 on: 11/04/2011 12:29 pm »
Who knows how many lunar lander designs NASA has been through.
Only 1 ever got built.  :D

Since the Chinese seem to plan for the long term, I would assume that their lunar lander will be more advanced than the Apollo lunar module, and will probably be closer to Altair (RIP) in its size and capabilities.   That way they don't have to abandon a design for a small lander and switch to a larger one after a few flights.
I've always been crazy but it's kept me from going insane - WJ.

Offline spacebob

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Re: China's manned Moon plans
« Reply #144 on: 11/06/2011 02:51 pm »
They're going to go to the moon without telling anybody. They'll announce it from the lunar surface.

Offline woods170

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Re: China's manned Moon plans
« Reply #145 on: 11/06/2011 03:37 pm »
They're going to go to the moon without telling anybody. They'll announce it from the lunar surface.
Welcome to the forum. Bold statement for a first post. Got anything to back this up?

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: China's manned Moon plans
« Reply #146 on: 11/07/2011 05:49 am »
Here's the Chinese Lunar Module that was published in "On issues of China manned Lunar exploration," Missiles and Space Vehicles, Sum No. 310, No.6 2010. The return vehicle is a Russian Soyuz instead of the Chinese Shenzhou (the Shenzhou has a cylindrical orbital module) and the Lunar Module looks pretty much the same as the original Altair configuration, so this just looks like a cut and paste. As its so early in the Chinese Lunar program, the actual Chinese LM could be quite different. The Chinese may go for an Apollo LM look alike (with storable descent and ascent stages) or perhaps with the Russian system of having a kerolox crasher stage.
« Last Edit: 11/07/2011 06:04 am by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: China's manned Moon plans
« Reply #147 on: 11/07/2011 06:19 am »
I am more than a little skeptical about a switch from the Shenzhou overall design to one that is closer allied to the Soyuz.

My guess is that the artist got the drawing wrong!   For one thing, the propulsion module is too small for the selenocentric orbit manoeuvres trans-Earth injection propellant - compare the original Soyuz with the Soyuz-LOK.

Now, if that lunar lander had been with a Shenzhou having a larger propulsion module then I am sure that it would be closer to the truth: assuming that "the truth" exists this early in the planning phase!
I've always been crazy but it's kept me from going insane - WJ.

Offline spectre9

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Re: China's manned Moon plans
« Reply #148 on: 11/07/2011 10:40 am »
I would love to see China go to the moon.

Building a lunar lander is easier said than done.

I really enjoyed the episode of The Earth To Moon where they take you inside Grumman to see everything they had to go through to make it a reality.

I wish them all the best.  ;D

Offline zaarin

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Re: China's manned Moon plans
« Reply #149 on: 11/08/2011 05:54 pm »
I really enjoyed the episode of The Earth To Moon where they take you inside Grumman to see everything they had to go through to make it a reality.

Apparently Grumman had to scrape away at nuts and bolts, chemically etch away at the LM's hull until it fit the weight requirements. That thing was like landing on the moon in a ship made from mom's kitchen foil!

What I want to know is why can't the US, Russia, Europe AND China all build a stack of rocket modules at the ISS and do a joint "International Lunar Mission"? Surely it would ease the financial burden of one country if we all worked together and instead of a Moon race like in the 60's it could be an international project just like the ISS has proved!
« Last Edit: 11/08/2011 05:58 pm by zaarin »

Offline LegendCJS

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Re: China's manned Moon plans
« Reply #150 on: 11/08/2011 06:25 pm »
I really enjoyed the episode of The Earth To Moon where they take you inside Grumman to see everything they had to go through to make it a reality.

Apparently Grumman had to scrape away at nuts and bolts, chemically etch away at the LM's hull until it fit the weight requirements. That thing was like landing on the moon in a ship made from mom's kitchen foil!

What I want to know is why can't the US, Russia, Europe AND China all build a stack of rocket modules at the ISS and do a joint "International Lunar Mission"? Surely it would ease the financial burden of one country if we all worked together and instead of a Moon race like in the 60's it could be an international project just like the ISS has proved!

The expensive part of space hardware is design, testing, and certification that your piece works correctly with everything else.  I can't think of a better way to increase those costs than having a team composed of the three countries you mention all try to work together to build inter-operable and interdependent space hardware.
Remember: if we want this whole space thing to work out we have to optimize for cost!

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: China's manned Moon plans
« Reply #151 on: 11/09/2011 01:30 pm »
Here's the Chinese Lunar Module that was published in "On issues of China manned Lunar exploration,"...

One thing I note about most lunar lander designs is that they are 4 legged truncated pyramids.  The DTAL lander is different.  And looking at Altair, it's hard not to say, "cut and paste".

I can't think of a better way to increase those costs than having a team composed of the three countries you mention all try to work together to build inter-operable and interdependent space hardware.

Certainly true, given that the current competitive mindset among the three countries doesn't seem likely to change.  But not true at all in principle, otherwise the word "cooperation" wouldn't be in the dictionary.  Obviously, ISS is an existing example of the success possible with international cooperation.  I fully expect the shallow objection: Define success.  I would then await the objector's contention that ISS is a failure.

Even in a cooperative mode, construction costs in the short term would rise, as standards of interoperability would have to be developed.  In some cases, tho, interoperability could be limited to the docking interface.  An approach like this would presuppose that the modules be independent in all but shared air pressure, power and communication, but that the safety  certification processes be well worked out.

Suppose a Chinese hotel module, attached to ISS.  For the sake of simplicity it may not have independent docking capability to the vacuum.  The guests might arrive on a Russian craft, and dock on the Russian section much as they do now.  Obviously, the guests would have to traverse the working areas on the way to their room, maybe asking questions along the way, and definitely not getting in the way while they're at it. 

This idea would suppose a common power and communication interface, which is not an impossibility.  There is absolutely no law of physics which would relate the political leanings of a democratic electron with a communist electron such that it would preclude, in all circumstances, a common power interface.  The only thing that would impair international cooperation, and add drastically to cost, is the action of the humans involved.

Point is, in principle, the slightly higher costs of cooperation at first should not preclude it from being considered at all, since the long term benefits would do nothing but better the human condition.  Problem of course is, that all the egos that would be involved these days are too big to fit in the airlock anyhow, so we don't have to worry about such an international cooperative effort for the time being.

As always, tho, I would prefer international peaceful cooperation.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline luhai167

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Re: China's manned Moon plans
« Reply #152 on: 01/01/2012 11:48 pm »
"Future Developments of Chinese Space Systems"
Another article on China's moon program. It's from the same guy that wrote the other article a few pages back. The author 龙乐豪, was chief engineer for CZ-3A and deputy program director for the current Chang'e program. It should be fairly creditable.

The same person also wrote the article on the 1st page of this thread back in 2008.

Edit: the main new point in the article is that the moon plan in fig 1 is a short term moon plan set in pre-2025 time frame. Using CZ-5DY as a mission specific mod of CZ-5 with LEO capability at 50t. Past 2030-2040 time frame a 130t LEO heavy lift rocket would be developed for a possible moon base or Mars missions.
« Last Edit: 01/02/2012 01:49 am by luhai167 »

Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: China's manned Moon plans
« Reply #153 on: 01/02/2012 07:19 am »
"Future Developments of Chinese Space Systems"
Another article on China's moon program. It's from the same guy that wrote the other article a few pages back. The author 龙乐豪, was chief engineer for CZ-3A and deputy program director for the current Chang'e program. It should be fairly creditable.
The same person also wrote the article on the 1st page of this thread back in 2008.
Edit: the main new point in the article is that the moon plan in fig 1 is a short term moon plan set in pre-2025 time frame. Using CZ-5DY as a mission specific mod of CZ-5 with LEO capability at 50t. Past 2030-2040 time frame a 130t LEO heavy lift rocket would be developed for a possible moon base or Mars missions.

Thank you for posting this - it is always interesting to see what the Chinese may be considering for their manned lunar programme.   Of course, I don't think that they are ready to actually commit to a particular way of going to the Moon yet - or for quite a few years.   It's rather like seeing the US proposals from the late 1950s, early 1960s before the Apollo LOR route with a single Saturn 5 was chosen.

Would you be kind enough to translate whatever details are given for the suggested CZ-5DY vehicle, please?
I've always been crazy but it's kept me from going insane - WJ.

Offline luhai167

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Re: China's manned Moon plans
« Reply #154 on: 01/02/2012 11:39 pm »
Basically he is presenting options for a "what to do next" scenarios, and he is strongly advocating lunar exploration as a next. CZ-5DY would be cheap, feasible tool to achieve that goal in the near term (before 2025). After 2025, he envisions a Saturn 5 class heavy lift rocket for China. which would be used to establish a lunar base and a possible expedition to Mars.

to quote page 5
"CZ-5DY would have 5m diameter, 120t kerosene engine and 70t liquid hydrogen engine. It would 2 100t  liquid hydrogen and the lunar landing stage into LEO, and assembled there. The entire mission would be done in Wenchang, Hainan using existing (in 2020) facilities. "

CZ-5DY Specs
1x 1st stage:
Main rocket
Diameter 5m
4x120t kerosene engine

6xStrap-on boosters
Diameter 3.35m
2x120t kerosene engine each

2nd stage:
Diameter 5m
2x70t liquid hydrogen engine

Total system mass: 1600t
Total system length 70m
LEO capability of ~50t

The two stage lunar rocket(to be assembled in LEO) would have a single 100t liquid  hydrogen engine, length of 26m, diameter of 5m. Total of 30t capability to lunar orbit.

BTW, DY stands for Deng Yue, or lunar mission/landing. Given the recent white paper, it seems China went for the short term route. And this method may very well be adopted.

Specs for proposed heavy rocket as follows, which would be used in 2030-2060 time frame:
9m diameter
650t class kerosene engines for first stage.
number of engines for first stage would be between 4-8, with 4 being more preferable.
3.35m or 5m Solid boosters, 650t each.
200t class liquid hydrogen engines for 2nd stage
LEO capability greater than 130t.
« Last Edit: 01/03/2012 12:04 am by luhai167 »

Offline spacex

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Re: China's manned Moon plans
« Reply #155 on: 01/22/2012 08:56 pm »

Online sdsds

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Re: China's manned Moon plans
« Reply #156 on: 01/23/2012 08:25 am »
The two stage lunar rocket (to be assembled in LEO) would have a single 100t liquid  hydrogen engine, length of 26m, diameter of 5m. Total of 30t capability to lunar orbit.

I'm not fully understanding 30t to lunar orbit.  Does this mean 30t sent through trans-lunar injection?  I'm envisioning a ~50t Earth-departure stage sending ~30t towards the Moon (Isp 446 s; delta-v 3300 m/s).  Part of that 30t would need to be e.g. a ~10t hypergolic lunar-orbit insertion stage (Isp 324 s; delta-v 1100 m/s).  So that's only ~20t that reaches lunar orbit.

Still, that's enough for a lunar orbit research station as massive as a Shenzhou and a Tiangong combined!
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Offline aquanaut99

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Re: China's manned Moon plans
« Reply #157 on: 01/23/2012 10:42 am »
to quote page 5
"CZ-5DY would have 5m diameter, 120t kerosene engine and 70t liquid hydrogen engine. It would 2 100t  liquid hydrogen and the lunar landing stage into LEO, and assembled there. The entire mission would be done in Wenchang, Hainan using existing (in 2020) facilities. "

The CZ-5DY is a CZ-5 that replaces the 5m hydrolox core with a 4-engined kerolox first stage (together with an extra pair of LRBs) and a new, more powerful hydrolox second stage. This would double payload to LEO, moving from the Delta 4 Heavy to the Falcon Heavy range.

This project is pretty much what we would be doing if we went for a SpaceX-based lunar return architecture. IMO, for a simple objective (repeating Apollo, i.e. flags-and-footprints), this is the best and cheapest way forward.

Politically, for China that would be sufficient to prove the world it could match the USA in its finest hour. By chosing the CZ-5DY approach, they could do it for much cheaper. And later on decide to not pursue the lunar base path (if the USA renouces), and never build the Superheavy.

However, please note that no decision to build the CZ-5DY been taken.
So it's just another powerpoint rocket until further notice...
« Last Edit: 01/23/2012 10:47 am by aquanaut99 »

Offline aquanaut99

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Re: China's manned Moon plans
« Reply #158 on: 01/23/2012 10:49 am »
Still, that's enough for a lunar orbit research station as massive as a Shenzhou and a Tiangong combined!

Also enough for a simple, barebones lander. Heck, they could even think about a 1-manned open "hopper-type" lander where the pilot wears his suit all the time. Just for putting a man and a flag on the moon, that would be enough...

Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: China's manned Moon plans
« Reply #159 on: 01/23/2012 12:25 pm »
Still, that's enough for a lunar orbit research station as massive as a Shenzhou and a Tiangong combined!
Also enough for a simple, barebones lander. Heck, they could even think about a 1-manned open "hopper-type" lander where the pilot wears his suit all the time. Just for putting a man and a flag on the moon, that would be enough...

This idea seems to suggest that the Chinese would do a simple "token" manned landing on the Moon, but I do not believe this to be the case.

The Chinese always seem to be thinking in the long-term for its space programme: for example, Project 921 produced not "a man in a can" but a modern space station ferry from the outset: of course, the Chinese have been able to draw upon the experiences of the Russians and Americans when planning their programme.

When the Chinese go to the Moon I don't believe we will see a token mission.   Maybe the first one or two will be like Apollos 11-14, but I feel sure that the Chinese are seriously eyeing a lunar base, in which case the programme's infrastructure will have this built-in from the beginning.
I've always been crazy but it's kept me from going insane - WJ.

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