Author Topic: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"  (Read 34252 times)

Offline B. Hendrickx

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Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« on: 06/18/2016 10:24 pm »
http://tass.ru/kosmos/3380598

Igor Komarov said on the Ekho Moskvy radio station today that Khrunichev is working on the "Proton Light", a lighter version of the Proton that will better satisfy the demands of the market and lower launch costs for customers. He added that this will allow the Proton to remain operational for at least another seven to nine years. No technical details given.

This means we may be looking at a longer transition from Proton to Angara.
 


Offline yoram

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #1 on: 06/19/2016 06:41 am »
Isn't that just the ongoing Proton-M update? The last phase IV was recently flown.

See http://russianspaceweb.com/proton-m.html

Offline edkyle99

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #2 on: 06/19/2016 03:15 pm »
Isn't that just the ongoing Proton-M update? The last phase IV was recently flown.

See http://russianspaceweb.com/proton-m.html
That's what it looks like to me.  Google translate gives it as "a lightweight version of the carrier rocket Proton".

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Offline fregate

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #3 on: 06/21/2016 05:33 am »
IMHO Proton Light suppose to fill a market niche vacated (by political reasons) by Sea Launch and Land Launch launch vehicles (Zenit-3SL, Zenit-3SLB and other configurations)
« Last Edit: 06/23/2016 03:36 am by fregate »
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Offline B. Hendrickx

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #4 on: 06/22/2016 08:09 am »
Looks like this is a two-stage Proton consisting of the first and third stages of the Proton-M with an increased propellant load in the third (now second) stage. This has been discussed for a while on the NK forum, but it escaped my attention. 

http://novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/forum/forum13/topic1114/

Someone posted a drawing on the NK forum a while ago.

Offline baldusi

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #5 on: 06/22/2016 01:39 pm »
But the second stage would not be restartable. It could do what, 12tonnes to LEO? That is sort of overkill. If they add a Briz-M what can it do to GTO? I would guess 3.5tonnes or so. May be more?

Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #6 on: 06/22/2016 01:47 pm »
But the second stage would not be restartable. It could do what, 12tonnes to LEO? That is sort of overkill. If they add a Briz-M what can it do to GTO? I would guess 3.5tonnes or so. May be more?

So what?   Neither the current second nor third stages of the Proton-M are restartable.
« Last Edit: 06/22/2016 02:50 pm by Phillip Clark »
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Offline hkultala

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #7 on: 06/22/2016 02:04 pm »
But the second stage would not be restartable. It could do what, 12tonnes to LEO? That is sort of overkill. If they add a Briz-M what can it do to GTO? I would guess 3.5tonnes or so. May be more?

I would expect quite a much more capasity than 12 tonnes, the liftoff thrust is going to be unchanged and the total amount of propellant onboard will only decrease by some 25%.

Offline baldusi

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #8 on: 06/22/2016 03:36 pm »
But the second stage would not be restartable. It could do what, 12tonnes to LEO? That is sort of overkill. If they add a Briz-M what can it do to GTO? I would guess 3.5tonnes or so. May be more?

So what?   Neither the current second nor third stages of the Proton-M are restartable.
They can't do anything more than SSO for circular, and that's at a performance loss. Now, that with a Briz-M is a more interesting LV. But how much cheaper can it get than Proton-M to enter the very contested under 4 tonne market?
The most risky part of Proton have been the multi burn Briz-M mission, which this rocket would still need. And they could, in the very best of cases, reduce 20% to 25% the cost of a Proton-M/Briz-M. I don't see much economic sense for the GTO. Perhaps it is designed for dual launching Uragan-K1/2? For SSO seems a bit overkill.

Offline Dmitry_V_home

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #9 on: 06/22/2016 05:13 pm »
But the second stage would not be restartable. It could do what, 12tonnes to LEO? That is sort of overkill. If they add a Briz-M what can it do to GTO? I would guess 3.5tonnes or so. May be more?

5 tonnes to GTO. With Briz-M upper stage. And about 19 tonnes to LEO.

Offline baldusi

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #10 on: 06/22/2016 06:35 pm »
But the second stage would not be restartable. It could do what, 12tonnes to LEO? That is sort of overkill. If they add a Briz-M what can it do to GTO? I would guess 3.5tonnes or so. May be more?

5 tonnes to GTO. With Briz-M upper stage. And about 19 tonnes to LEO.
That much? I have to do numbers always rather than intuition, clearly. Still would seem like too big for LEO. Not that Proton-M is used much (still to debut with MLM).
How much cheaper for 5tonnes to GTO? 75M? It could compete with Ariane 5/F9 if the reliability was there.

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #11 on: 06/23/2016 06:24 am »
Looks like this is a two-stage Proton consisting of the first and third stages of the Proton-M with an increased propellant load in the third (now second) stage. This has been discussed for a while on the NK forum, but it escaped my attention. 

http://novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/forum/forum13/topic1114/

Someone posted a drawing on the NK forum a while ago.
So i reckon that the pads and MST's are still capable of the original two stage UR-500 Heavy ICBM design. One thing that isn't compatible is the current TE railcar. The original railcars for the UR-500 Two Stage ICBM version have long been retired and are likely either abandoned somewhere at Baikonur or they have been scrapped.
« Last Edit: 06/23/2016 06:25 am by russianhalo117 »

Offline Galactic Penguin SST

Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #12 on: 06/23/2016 07:13 am »
Not only this reminds me of the original 2 stage Proton, it also reminds me of the good old Saturn I and how it was derived from the Saturn C-2 design....  ;)

However 6 RD-275 and a Briz-M for 5 tonnes to GTO? Thanks but no thanks, I'll take your Angara A3 instead....  ::)
Astronomy & spaceflight geek penguin. In a relationship w/ Space Shuttle Discovery. Current Priority: Chasing the Chinese Spaceflight Wonder Egg & A Certain Chinese Mars Rover

Offline Dmitry_V_home

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #13 on: 06/23/2016 06:49 pm »
That much? I have to do numbers always rather than intuition, clearly. Still would seem like too big for LEO. Not that Proton-M is used much (still to debut with MLM).
How much cheaper for 5tonnes to GTO? 75M? It could compete with Ariane 5/F9 if the reliability was there.

19 tons are a result of calculation. 5 tons are information from Khrunichev's Center.
Considering a current rate of ruble, I think, the cost of launch can make about $50 M.

Offline simonbp

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #14 on: 06/23/2016 07:05 pm »
That much? I have to do numbers always rather than intuition, clearly. Still would seem like too big for LEO. Not that Proton-M is used much (still to debut with MLM).
How much cheaper for 5tonnes to GTO? 75M? It could compete with Ariane 5/F9 if the reliability was there.

19 tons are a result of calculation. 5 tons are information from Khrunichev's Center.
Considering a current rate of ruble, I think, the cost of launch can make about $50 M.

For a direct comparison, the numbers for Falcon 9 currently on the SpaceX website (as of June 23, 2016, all caveats apply) are up to 5.5 tonnes to GTO, $62 million cost.

Proton Light -> ~ $10/tonne to GTO
Falcon 9 -> ~ $11.3/tonne to GTO

So, depending on how depressed the ruble stays, Proton Light is cheaper than Falcon 9, and avoids ITAR entanglements. That should allow it to win a few contracts.
« Last Edit: 06/23/2016 07:10 pm by simonbp »

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #15 on: 06/24/2016 07:13 am »
So, depending on how depressed the ruble stays, Proton Light is cheaper than Falcon 9, and avoids ITAR entanglements. That should allow it to win a few contracts.

How does Proton avoid ITAR? If anything, ITAR could be used to prevent Russia launching any satellites with US technology, just like with China.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #16 on: 06/24/2016 01:55 pm »
Looks like this is a two-stage Proton consisting of the first and third stages of the Proton-M with an increased propellant load in the third (now second) stage. This has been discussed for a while on the NK forum, but it escaped my attention. 

http://novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/forum/forum13/topic1114/

Someone posted a drawing on the NK forum a while ago.

I can't read the italics in the drawing, but this appears to be a standard 2 stage Proton, ie the initial variant, with some modifications. The second stage in the drawing has the standard 4 engine set that makes up RD-212.

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #17 on: 06/24/2016 02:20 pm »
LINK: http://www.russianspaceweb.com/proton-light.html
8K82KL also known/referenced as Proton-L, Proton-KL, Proton-ML, and Proton-Light.

Proton-Light proposed

Looking to expand payload capabilities of the Proton rocket downwards, its developer proposed smaller, cheaper version of Russia's commercial space workhorse. If ever built, the Proton-Light variant is expected to have the industrial designation 8K82KL.

Proton "light" concept

In 2016, Russian space officials announced plans to develop a smaller version of the nation's venerable Proton launch vehicle. The head of Roskosmos Igor Komarov, speaking to the radio station Ekho Moskvy on June 18 said that the Proton-Light variant would be narrowly aimed at particular demands of the commercial market. According to Komarov, an extra variant would make the Proton family more effective and reduce per-kilogram cost of payload delivered into orbit.

Komarov stressed that the Proton would remain in operation for at least seven or nine years, before being replaced with the Angara family.

On June 23, the head of GKNPTs Khrunichev Andrei Kalinovsky announced that the company had been preparing a new addition to the Proton family for a different type of commercial spacecraft, allowing various Proton variants to have their own individual price offers on the market. Kalinovsky did not provide technical details on the new Proton variant, but mentioned that it would not be a drastically new vehicle.

Around the same time, various industry sources revealed the most likely architecture of the Proton-Light rocket. The key change included the removal of the second stage from the standard Proton-M rocket. Instead, the traditional third stage of the Proton-M would be "stretched" to accommodate more propellant and used as the second stage on the Proton-Light. According to some reports, the propulsion system on the second stage could be modified to re-start its engine and boost its payload from an initial parking orbit to a geostationary transfer orbit, GTO. Some estimates showed that under such a scenario, the vehicle could deliver up to five tons of cargo to the GTO after launch from Baikonur.

Another configuration could use a Briz-M space tug as the third stage of the rocket.

In its new configuration, Proton-Light could fill the gap in the payload range left by the Zenit rocket, which itself fell victim to Russia's conflict with Ukraine. The new Proton variant would also be well positioned on the international market, which saw more competition with the arrival of the American Falcon-9 rocket.

However given the extended length of time required for even less radical upgrades of Proton and the official Russian strategy to phase out the vehicle in favor of Angara-5, it is unclear whether it would be possible to justify the Proton-Light development effort. A number of previous proposals to change the shape and size of the Proton-M rocket were deemed too expensive more than a decade earlier in the rocket's operational career.

(To be continued)
« Last Edit: 06/24/2016 06:03 pm by russianhalo117 »

Offline baldusi

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #18 on: 06/24/2016 04:37 pm »
I don't think they have the budget for this development. And it would probably require quite a bit of GSE change, also a very expensive proposition (and historically a very expansive and slow development for Russian LV).

Offline Dmitry_V_home

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #19 on: 06/24/2016 05:47 pm »

I can't read the italics in the drawing, but this appears to be a standard 2 stage Proton, ie the initial variant, with some modifications. The second stage in the drawing has the standard 4 engine set that makes up RD-212.

The option represented in drawing includes a reference first stage of "Proton-M", and also the second stage equipped with one RD0212 engine (the stage is the increased version of a third stage "Proton-M").

Offline B. Hendrickx

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #20 on: 06/24/2016 08:25 pm »
The italics in the drawing literally say :

- modified first stage (lattice interstage structure of the standard first stage replaced by the upper section of the second stage), six RD-276 engines
- modified second stage (on the basis of the third stage of the Proton-M with in increased propellant load),
RD-0212 (consisting of the RD-0213 main engine and the four-chamber RD-0214 vernier engine)

Offline edkyle99

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #21 on: 06/24/2016 09:51 pm »
I don't see how this "Light" concept can use all six first stage engines.  The end-of-first-stage acceleration forces would be significant (~9g), and the liftoff thrust is not needed (T/W ~1.8+).  Could Proton Light dispense with a couple of the first stage engines in addition to the second stage?

 - Ed Kyle 
« Last Edit: 06/24/2016 09:52 pm by edkyle99 »

Offline simonbp

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #22 on: 06/25/2016 12:42 am »
They could do a Saturn V-style staged shutdown, shutting down half the engines 2/3 of the way through the burn.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #23 on: 06/25/2016 04:39 am »

I can't read the italics in the drawing, but this appears to be a standard 2 stage Proton, ie the initial variant, with some modifications. The second stage in the drawing has the standard 4 engine set that makes up RD-212.

The option represented in drawing includes a reference first stage of "Proton-M", and also the second stage equipped with one RD0212 engine (the stage is the increased version of a third stage "Proton-M").

The RD-0212 engine is made up of four engines.

Offline Dmitry_V_home

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #24 on: 06/25/2016 05:29 am »
The RD-0212 engine is made up of four engines.

RD0212 consists of two engines: the main RD0213 engine and the control RD0214 engine.
http://www.kbkha.ru/?p=8&cat=8&prod=33

Offline Dmitry_V_home

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #25 on: 06/25/2016 05:36 am »
I don't see how this "Light" concept can use all six first stage engines.  The end-of-first-stage acceleration forces would be significant (~9g), and the liftoff thrust is not needed (T/W ~1.8+).  Could Proton Light dispense with a couple of the first stage engines in addition to the second stage?

 - Ed Kyle
Several options of restriction of longitudinal accelerations are offered during the work of a first stage, depending on option of realization of the rocket:
1) Throttling
2) Decrease in a reserve of fuel in hinged tanks and earlier shutdown of two of six engines.
The size of a longitudinal acceleration does not exceed 5-6,5 g.
« Last Edit: 06/25/2016 05:37 am by Dmitry_V_home »

Offline fregate

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #26 on: 06/25/2016 05:46 am »
So, depending on how depressed the ruble stays, Proton Light is cheaper than Falcon 9, and avoids ITAR entanglements. That should allow it to win a few contracts.

How does Proton avoid ITAR? If anything, ITAR could be used to prevent Russia launching any satellites with US technology, just like with China.
Quite easy - Khrunichev marketing is done by ILS which is an US-registered company :)
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Online Stan Black

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #27 on: 06/25/2016 06:46 am »
I don't see how this "Light" concept can use all six first stage engines.  The end-of-first-stage acceleration forces would be significant (~9g), and the liftoff thrust is not needed (T/W ~1.8+).  Could Proton Light dispense with a couple of the first stage engines in addition to the second stage?

 - Ed Kyle
Several options of restriction of longitudinal accelerations are offered during the work of a first stage, depending on option of realization of the rocket:
1) Throttling
2) Decrease in a reserve of fuel in hinged tanks and earlier shutdown of two of six engines.
The size of a longitudinal acceleration does not exceed 5-6,5 g.

The RD-276 engines already has some form of throttle. Proton-M rockets only take off with 107% the thrust of the former RD-253 powered rockets. In two cases the timings of the rockets suggest this throttle up event may have been different; for SES-1 and Intelsat-16?
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=17568.msg776061#msg776061

Quote
После набора готовности к пуску приблизительно за 1,75 с (Т – 1,75 с) до запуска включаются шесть двигателей первой ступени РД-276 и набирают 107 % в момент подачи сигнала «Контакт подъема» (КП), через 6 секунд полёта тяга возрастает до 112 % от номинала.
http://coopi.khrunichev.ru/main.php?id=190

Back in 2008 I raised the question if a two stage Proton was a possibility. It sounded a daft idea at the time.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=13776.msg298538#msg298538
« Last Edit: 06/26/2016 06:34 am by Stan Black »

Offline B. Hendrickx

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #28 on: 06/27/2016 09:24 am »
http://izvestia.ru/news/619538

Dmitriy Medvedev, the Roskosmos official in charge of launch vehicle programs (and a former head of the Khrunichev Centre), says in Izvestiya today that the two-stage Proton is seen as a continuation of the joint Russian-Kazakh Baiterek venture (which earlier envisaged the use of Angara-5 and then the Zenit rocket). However, the two-stage Proton is just an interim step towards the development of a Zenit replacement that will also fly from Baikonur under the Baiterek program.

This is what Medvedev says about the two-stage Proton :

"If we look at the trends in the development of satellites, we see that with the appearance of electrically-powered engines the mass of satellites has begun to go down. Geostationary satellites weigh 3 to 4.5 tons. This is why lighter rockets are needed, which is something that Elon Musk realized when developing the Falcon-9 rocket. This rocket has a GTO capacity of 4.85 tonnes, whereas the Proton can put 6.3 tonnes into GTO. This is why from the standpoint of current market demands the Proton is oversized. The solution we have come up with is to remove the second stage from the Proton-M. We're not building a new rocket, we're just modifying an existing one. Of course, some changes will be needed, but they will not be too complicated and expensive. In this configuration the rocket can put up to 5 tonnes into GTO. It will become about 25 % cheaper and the cost of launching payloads will go down and therefore we can fill this niche in the market. This project is seen by our Kazakh partners as a continuation of Baiterek."

The ultimate goal of Baiterek is to fly a Zenit replacement from the existing Zenit pad at Baikonur. Russia will pay for the development of the rocket and Kazakhstan will shoulder the cost of modifying the ground infrastructure. Medvedev says the first stage will use an RD-171 engine (like Zenit). No decision has been made yet on the configuration of the second stage, but Medvedev says it will use an existing engine. The upper stage will probably be a modified Block-DM.

The development of a Zenit replacement under the name "Feniks" (Phoenix) is included in the Federal Space Program for 2016-2025. A total of 30 billion rubles has been earmarked for Feniks in the FSP 2016-2025, with development scheduled to get underway in earnest in 2018. The Russians have earlier said that the first stage of Feniks may eventually serve as a strap-on booster for a new heavy-lift launch vehicle, very much like the Zenit first stage served as a strap-on booster for Energia. Last January Roskosmos chief Igor Komarov said a final decision on the configuration of the heavy-lift launch vehicle will be made in 2017. He also said that for the time being there are no plans to build a Feniks pad at Vostochnyy. See :

http://tass.ru/kosmos/2600127

So the plan right now seems to be to fly Feniks only from Baikonur (which makes sense, because it is compatible with the existing Zenit pad) and eventually build a pad for the new heavy-lift rocket at Vostochnyy. 

Offline Dmitry_V_home

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #29 on: 06/27/2016 06:31 pm »
http://izvestia.ru/news/619538

The ultimate goal of Baiterek is to fly a Zenit replacement from the existing Zenit pad at Baikonur. Russia will pay for the development of the rocket and Kazakhstan will shoulder the cost of modifying the ground infrastructure. Medvedev says the first stage will use an RD-171 engine (like Zenit). No decision has been made yet on the configuration of the second stage, but Medvedev says it will use an existing engine. The upper stage will probably be a modified Block-DM.

Something like it  ;)

Offline fregate

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #30 on: 06/28/2016 07:13 am »
http://izvestia.ru/news/619538

The ultimate goal of Baiterek is to fly a Zenit replacement from the existing Zenit pad at Baikonur. Russia will pay for the development of the rocket and Kazakhstan will shoulder the cost of modifying the ground infrastructure. Medvedev says the first stage will use an RD-171 engine (like Zenit). No decision has been made yet on the configuration of the second stage, but Medvedev says it will use an existing engine. The upper stage will probably be a modified Block-DM.

Something like it  ;)

Dmitry, let's compare engine thrust for second stage propulsion for "conditionally" EXISTING engines 
Upgraded RD-120 from current Zenit LV  - 912 kN (without RD-8 vernier engine)
RD-0124A from Angara URM-2 - 294.3 kN
2xRD-0125A (a single nozzle derivative of RD-0124A ) = 2x289,4=578.8 kN
RD-191V (with extended nozzle) 2090 kN (!)



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Offline baldusi

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #31 on: 06/28/2016 12:43 pm »
http://izvestia.ru/news/619538

The ultimate goal of Baiterek is to fly a Zenit replacement from the existing Zenit pad at Baikonur. Russia will pay for the development of the rocket and Kazakhstan will shoulder the cost of modifying the ground infrastructure. Medvedev says the first stage will use an RD-171 engine (like Zenit). No decision has been made yet on the configuration of the second stage, but Medvedev says it will use an existing engine. The upper stage will probably be a modified Block-DM.

Something like it  ;)

Dmitry, let's compare engine thrust for second stage propulsion for "conditionally" EXISTING engines 
Upgraded RD-120 from current Zenit LV  - 912 kN (without RD-8 vernier engine)
RD-0124A from Angara URM-2 - 294.3 kN
2xRD-0125A (a single nozzle derivative of RD-0124A ) = 2x289,4=578.8 kN
RD-191V (with extended nozzle) 2090 kN (!)

Rule of thumb is that for a 2 stage rocket, the US should be around 20% of the 1st stage mass and a T/W 0.7~1.0. Given the volumentric limitations for Voistochny, I doubt that they will be able to make an efficient first stage with more than 350tonnes. So second stage should be 55 to 75 tonnes or so.
Lower bound, would be 0.7 * 55 = 38.5tnf and upper bound 75tnf. They could replicate the Zenit and use an 11D123M (improved RD-120), but I would guess that they could very much get away with dual RD-0125A. Which would seem like the most straight forward plan since the RD-120M is actually built in Ukraine, while the RD-0124 and I would guess the RD-0125A would be built at the Voronezh Mechanical Plant. I guess NPO Energomash could very well build it, too. But serial production of small engines is usually handled by the LV factories.

Offline Dmitry_V_home

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #32 on: 06/28/2016 04:08 pm »
Rule of thumb is that for a 2 stage rocket, the US should be around 20% of the 1st stage mass and a T/W 0.7~1.0. Given the volumentric limitations for Voistochny, I doubt that they will be able to make an efficient first stage with more than 350tonnes. So second stage should be 55 to 75 tonnes or so.
Lower bound, would be 0.7 * 55 = 38.5tnf and upper bound 75tnf. They could replicate the Zenit and use an 11D123M (improved RD-120), but I would guess that they could very much get away with dual RD-0125A. Which would seem like the most straight forward plan since the RD-120M is actually built in Ukraine, while the RD-0124 and I would guess the RD-0125A would be built at the Voronezh Mechanical Plant. I guess NPO Energomash could very well build it, too. But serial production of small engines is usually handled by the LV factories.

Really, the best results can be received when using on a second stage of two RD0125 engines (two combustors) or RD0124 (eight combustors).
Optimization of parameters of the rocket shows that with a starting mass of 516 metric tons (on a first stage RD-171M) the maximal mass of a payload (more than 18 tons) is reached when using on a second stage of the engine by thrust 65 tf (the used fuel reserve about 59 tons).

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #33 on: 06/28/2016 04:14 pm »
I estimated similar option about three-four years ago (on a first stage 4RD-191 or one 171M, on the second stage - 2RD0125). Start mass is about 450 t, the mass of useful load there are about 16 tons.

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #34 on: 06/28/2016 04:18 pm »
One of options of "Energy-1K" LV with the RD-191V engine on a second stage.
« Last Edit: 06/28/2016 04:19 pm by Dmitry_V_home »

Offline baldusi

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #35 on: 06/28/2016 04:55 pm »
Rule of thumb is that for a 2 stage rocket, the US should be around 20% of the 1st stage mass and a T/W 0.7~1.0. Given the volumentric limitations for Voistochny, I doubt that they will be able to make an efficient first stage with more than 350tonnes. So second stage should be 55 to 75 tonnes or so.
Lower bound, would be 0.7 * 55 = 38.5tnf and upper bound 75tnf. They could replicate the Zenit and use an 11D123M (improved RD-120), but I would guess that they could very much get away with dual RD-0125A. Which would seem like the most straight forward plan since the RD-120M is actually built in Ukraine, while the RD-0124 and I would guess the RD-0125A would be built at the Voronezh Mechanical Plant. I guess NPO Energomash could very well build it, too. But serial production of small engines is usually handled by the LV factories.

Really, the best results can be received when using on a second stage of two RD0125 engines (two combustors) or RD0124 (eight combustors).
Optimization of parameters of the rocket shows that with a starting mass of 516 metric tons (on a first stage RD-171M) the maximal mass of a payload (more than 18 tons) is reached when using on a second stage of the engine by thrust 65 tf (the used fuel reserve about 59 tons).

Can they make a 516 tonne first stage that is train transportable to Voistochny and Plesesk?

Offline fregate

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #36 on: 06/29/2016 07:21 am »
Rule of thumb is that for a 2 stage rocket, the US should be around 20% of the 1st stage mass and a T/W 0.7~1.0. Given the volumentric limitations for Voistochny, I doubt that they will be able to make an efficient first stage with more than 350tonnes. So second stage should be 55 to 75 tonnes or so.
Lower bound, would be 0.7 * 55 = 38.5tnf and upper bound 75tnf. They could replicate the Zenit and use an 11D123M (improved RD-120), but I would guess that they could very much get away with dual RD-0125A. Which would seem like the most straight forward plan since the RD-120M is actually built in Ukraine, while the RD-0124 and I would guess the RD-0125A would be built at the Voronezh Mechanical Plant. I guess NPO Energomash could very well build it, too. But serial production of small engines is usually handled by the LV factories.

Really, the best results can be received when using on a second stage of two RD0125 engines (two combustors) or RD0124 (eight combustors).
Optimization of parameters of the rocket shows that with a starting mass of 516 metric tons (on a first stage RD-171M) the maximal mass of a payload (more than 18 tons) is reached when using on a second stage of the engine by thrust 65 tf (the used fuel reserve about 59 tons).

Can they make a 516 tonne first stage that is train transportable to Voistochny and Plesesk?
ALexandro, they are NOT going to transport FUELED stage!
Mass of empty stage is not a CONSTRAINT. Diameter 3.8m is the one due to tunnel limitations to Russian Far East.
 We need a BIIGER ship, oops PLANE to fit 4.1 first stage :)
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Offline hkultala

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #37 on: 06/29/2016 07:34 am »
About the energija/zenit-derived launcher with RD-191V upper stage:

RD-191V sounds like a huge amount of thrust for second stage.

Falcon 9 already has quite a powerful second stage compared to many other rockets of similar class, but this has more than twice the thrust and better isp than falcon 9 second stage.

But the second stage of this rocket never has to go to GTO because russians use separate upper stage for that?

The thrust is even 1.5 times more thrust than Ares I second stage was going to have, even though Ares I was going to stage very low.
« Last Edit: 06/29/2016 07:36 am by hkultala »

Offline baldusi

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #38 on: 06/29/2016 12:43 pm »
Can they make a 516 tonne first stage that is train transportable to Voistochny and Plesesk?
ALexandro, they are NOT going to transport FUELED stage!
Mass of empty stage is not a CONSTRAINT. Diameter 3.8m is the one due to tunnel limitations to Russian Far East.
 We need a BIIGER ship, oops PLANE to fit 4.1 first stage :)
I perfectly understand. But RG-1/LOX at 2.7 O/F is about .97tn/m³. I understand that stages should be 3.8m OD and no longer than 25m. RD-171M is 4m long, less 1m for plumbing, and 1m for other, leave an effective volume, assuming common bulkhead, of 3.75m D x 19m. That has a 210m³ of effective tank volume. That would be a 225tonne stage (wet mass).
Of course the stage alone would be 15 to 20 tonnes when dry. But my worry is about the available volume. The Zenit first stage is 3.9m x 32.9m and they can only put 327tonnes of propellant. If I'm not mistaken a stage able to carry 480 tonnes of propellant with an RD-171M and a 4.1m outer diameter would have to be at least 43m long. An An-124 cargo hold is just 36m long. But it would be just right for the An-225. Since I don't see Russia buying it, I don't think it would be air portable, unless Russia did some sort of An-124 variation with reinforcements to carry a stage on top, just like the An-225 did with Energyia.

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #39 on: 06/29/2016 02:01 pm »
Can they make a 516 tonne first stage that is train transportable to Voistochny and Plesesk?
ALexandro, they are NOT going to transport FUELED stage!
Mass of empty stage is not a CONSTRAINT. Diameter 3.8m is the one due to tunnel limitations to Russian Far East.
 We need a BIIGER ship, oops PLANE to fit 4.1 first stage :)
I perfectly understand. But RG-1/LOX at 2.7 O/F is about .97tn/m³. I understand that stages should be 3.8m OD and no longer than 25m. RD-171M is 4m long, less 1m for plumbing, and 1m for other, leave an effective volume, assuming common bulkhead, of 3.75m D x 19m. That has a 210m³ of effective tank volume. That would be a 225tonne stage (wet mass).
Of course the stage alone would be 15 to 20 tonnes when dry. But my worry is about the available volume. The Zenit first stage is 3.9m x 32.9m and they can only put 327tonnes of propellant. If I'm not mistaken a stage able to carry 480 tonnes of propellant with an RD-171M and a 4.1m outer diameter would have to be at least 43m long. An An-124 cargo hold is just 36m long. But it would be just right for the An-225. Since I don't see Russia buying it, I don't think it would be air portable, unless Russia did some sort of An-124 variation with reinforcements to carry a stage on top, just like the An-225 did with Energyia.
We could forget about common bulkheads - too EXPENSIVE from production POV.
Designers could choose to transport oxidizer and fuel tank separately (subject on assembly facilities in spaceport).
About plane - no they would not buy An-225 (Not invented HERE syndrome), but might upgrade An-124 (takes years...). 
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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #40 on: 06/29/2016 02:06 pm »
About the energija/zenit-derived launcher with RD-191V upper stage:

RD-191V sounds like a huge amount of thrust for second stage.

Falcon 9 already has quite a powerful second stage compared to many other rockets of similar class, but this has more than twice the thrust and better isp than falcon 9 second stage.

But the second stage of this rocket never has to go to GTO because russians use separate upper stage for that?

The thrust is even 1.5 times more thrust than Ares I second stage was going to have, even though Ares I was going to stage very low.
NPO energomash could always scale down RD-191V for optimal thrust (Just follow the roadmap RD-171->RD-180->RD-191 and so on . Even now engine has quite good throttling capabilities.  Plus extendable nozzle could be bigger  - current edition of RD-191V was designed for Stage I and Stage II propulsion and has to satisfy launch pad geometry constraints.     
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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #41 on: 06/30/2016 06:39 am »
NPO energomash could always scale down RD-191V for optimal thrust (Just follow the roadmap RD-171->RD-180->RD-191 and so on .

how? as i understand it... they were basically cutting the engine in halves - 171 has 4 chambers, 180 has 2 chambers, 191 has 1 chamber... i dont think they can easily scale it down any more
« Last Edit: 06/30/2016 06:39 am by aga »
42

Offline GClark

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #42 on: 06/30/2016 01:32 pm »
RD-151, perhaps?

That said, if Dmitry's graphic bears a nodding resemblance to reality it looks like an RD-0124.

IANARS.

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #43 on: 06/30/2016 03:28 pm »
RD-151, perhaps?

That said, if Dmitry's graphic bears a nodding resemblance to reality it looks like an RD-0124.

IANARS.

The Energiya corporation studies such option. In this case with the RD0124M engine (eight chambers).

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #44 on: 06/30/2016 03:52 pm »
This thread has strayed a long way from discussing the "Proton Light" launch vehicle, with half or more of the discussion being about a Zenit-follow-on launch vehicle.

Should we have two separate threads here?
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Offline SIM city

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #45 on: 06/30/2016 03:54 pm »
http://izvestia.ru/news/619538

Dmitriy Medvedev, the Roskosmos official in charge of launch vehicle programs (and a former head of the Khrunichev Centre), says in Izvestiya today that the two-stage Proton is seen as a continuation of the joint Russian-Kazakh Baiterek venture (which earlier envisaged the use of Angara-5 and then the Zenit rocket). However, the two-stage Proton is just an interim step towards the development of a Zenit replacement that will also fly from Baikonur under the Baiterek program.

This is what Medvedev says about the two-stage Proton :

"If we look at the trends in the development of satellites, we see that with the appearance of electrically-powered engines the mass of satellites has begun to go down. Geostationary satellites weigh 3 to 4.5 tons. This is why lighter rockets are needed, which is something that Elon Musk realized when developing the Falcon-9 rocket. This rocket has a GTO capacity of 4.85 tonnes, whereas the Proton can put 6.3 tonnes into GTO. This is why from the standpoint of current market demands the Proton is oversized. The solution we have come up with is to remove the second stage from the Proton-M. We're not building a new rocket, we're just modifying an existing one. Of course, some changes will be needed, but they will not be too complicated and expensive. In this configuration the rocket can put up to 5 tonnes into GTO. It will become about 25 % cheaper and the cost of launching payloads will go down and therefore we can fill this niche in the market. This project is seen by our Kazakh partners as a continuation of Baiterek."

The ultimate goal of Baiterek is to fly a Zenit replacement from the existing Zenit pad at Baikonur. Russia will pay for the development of the rocket and Kazakhstan will shoulder the cost of modifying the ground infrastructure. Medvedev says the first stage will use an RD-171 engine (like Zenit). No decision has been made yet on the configuration of the second stage, but Medvedev says it will use an existing engine. The upper stage will probably be a modified Block-DM.

The development of a Zenit replacement under the name "Feniks" (Phoenix) is included in the Federal Space Program for 2016-2025. A total of 30 billion rubles has been earmarked for Feniks in the FSP 2016-2025, with development scheduled to get underway in earnest in 2018. The Russians have earlier said that the first stage of Feniks may eventually serve as a strap-on booster for a new heavy-lift launch vehicle, very much like the Zenit first stage served as a strap-on booster for Energia. Last January Roskosmos chief Igor Komarov said a final decision on the configuration of the heavy-lift launch vehicle will be made in 2017. He also said that for the time being there are no plans to build a Feniks pad at Vostochnyy. See :

http://tass.ru/kosmos/2600127

So the plan right now seems to be to fly Feniks only from Baikonur (which makes sense, because it is compatible with the existing Zenit pad) and eventually build a pad for the new heavy-lift rocket at Vostochnyy. 

Dmitry Medvedev is the Prime Minister.  I think you mean Alexander.

Offline hkultala

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #46 on: 06/30/2016 03:59 pm »
About the energija/zenit-derived launcher with RD-191V upper stage:

RD-191V sounds like a huge amount of thrust for second stage.

Falcon 9 already has quite a powerful second stage compared to many other rockets of similar class, but this has more than twice the thrust and better isp than falcon 9 second stage.

But the second stage of this rocket never has to go to GTO because russians use separate upper stage for that?

The thrust is even 1.5 times more thrust than Ares I second stage was going to have, even though Ares I was going to stage very low.
NPO energomash could always scale down RD-191V for optimal thrust (Just follow the roadmap RD-171->RD-180->RD-191 and so on . Even now engine has quite good throttling capabilities.  Plus extendable nozzle could be bigger  - current edition of RD-191V was designed for Stage I and Stage II propulsion and has to satisfy launch pad geometry constraints.   

But RD-191V is also quite heavy, RD-191 with SL nozzle already weights 2.2 tonnes and the vacuum nozzle will add some hundres of kilograms more. This is all mass that has to go to orbit. Throttling down the engines does not make it lighter.

Merlin 1D weights about 1/4 of what RD-191 weights and pair of RL-10's also weight about 1/4 of what RD-191 weights.


Offline B. Hendrickx

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #47 on: 06/30/2016 04:34 pm »
http://izvestia.ru/news/619538

Dmitriy Medvedev, the Roskosmos official in charge of launch vehicle programs (and a former head of the Khrunichev Centre), says in Izvestiya today that the two-stage Proton is seen as a continuation of the joint Russian-Kazakh Baiterek venture (which earlier envisaged the use of Angara-5 and then the Zenit rocket). However, the two-stage Proton is just an interim step towards the development of a Zenit replacement that will also fly from Baikonur under the Baiterek program.

Dmitry Medvedev is the Prime Minister.  I think you mean Alexander.

Oops. Yes, of course.

Offline B. Hendrickx

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #48 on: 06/30/2016 04:39 pm »
This thread has strayed a long way from discussing the "Proton Light" launch vehicle, with half or more of the discussion being about a Zenit-follow-on launch vehicle.

Should we have two separate threads here?

Actually, there is a thread on Feniks which has been dormant for a while :

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39208.0

I guess it makes more sense to continue the discussion on the Zenit replacement vehicle there.

Offline B. Hendrickx

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #49 on: 07/08/2016 10:38 pm »
http://tass.ru/en/science/887169

Quote
Russia may develop Proton carrier rocket's light version in 2018 — manufacturer

MOSCOW, July 8. /TASS/. The light modification of Russia’s Proton carrier rocket may be developed in 2018, Khrunichev Space Center Head Andrei Kalinovsky said on Friday. "We hope, in 2018," he said, responding to a journalists’ question about the possible timeframe of developing a new version of the carrier rocket.
The project is "at the stage of making a decision," the head of the Khrunichev Space Center said.
"We agree the issues at various levels for making a decision, including technical characteristics. It has to be understood that this project is commercial. The required business plan is available," he said, adding that the approval process was under way.

The development of the light version of the Proton carrier rocket was announced in June by State Space Corporation Roscosmos CEO Igor Komarov.
According to him, the developers are set to increase the rocket’s efficiency and cut the cost of bringing a kilogram of payload into outer space.
Russia is currently using only one modification of the Proton carrier rocket - Proton-M, which is referred to heavy-class rockets. In the estimate of Roscosmos, this model will be used for several more years.

A couple of more details in the Russian version of the TASS report :
http://tass.ru/kosmos/3440840

Kalinovsky says they are still looking at several possible configurations for the lightweight Proton. He stresses it will be operated in conjunction with the four-stage Proton. He thinks the lightweight Proton should be able to compete with the Falcon-9. By the way, in Russian he literally said the lightweight Proton will "appear" in 2018.

Roskosmos' Aleksandr Medvedev said recently that the lightweight Proton is seen as part of the Russian-Kazakh Baiterek venture. Dmitriy Rogozin, who was at Baikonur today, said Russia and Kazakhstan have agreed on ways of implementing the Baiterek project and confirmed it will focus on Proton. He did not specifically mention the lightweight Proton.

Quote
Russia and Kazakhstan agree on ways of implementing Baiterek project

MOSCOW, July 8 /TASS/. Russian Vice-Premier Dmitry Rogozin said on Friday that Russia and Kazakhstan had reached understanding on ways of implementing the Baiterek project for the development of a new space rocket complex.

"We have reached understanding on how to implement the Baiterek joint project, which is vitally important for both countries," Rogozin told an extended meeting of the Russian-Kazakhstani inter-governmental commission on Friday.
"The Russian side had prepared and handed over to the Kazakhstani side several possible scenarios for a future layout and places for deployment of components as well as the cost parameters of the Baiterek space rocket complex.

According to Rogozin, the two countries’ experts agreed that the final decision would be passed in September this year.

The Russian vice-premier added that the sides were planning to sign a joint action plan for implementing the Baiterek project at the IV session of the Russian-Kazakhstani inter-governmental commission. He also added that the Russian side had met all the commitments linked to training experts for the Baiterek joint venture who will later prepare components for the launch of Proton-M rockets as part of joint crews.
According to the vice-premier, Kazakhastani experts will soon be able to help launching this type of carrier rockets. "They are undergoing training and will soon be able to be directly involved in the work of the ground infrastructure of the Proton-M space rocket complex," Rogozin said.

"We do not rule out that in case of positive experience - we have no doubt that it’s going to be positive - Kazakhstani experts will join joint crews at other rocket launch complexes at Baikonur.


Online Stan Black

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #50 on: 07/09/2016 08:48 am »
Quote
Russia is currently using only one modification of the Proton carrier rocket - Proton-M, which is referred to heavy-class rockets. In the estimate of Roscosmos, this model will be used for several more years.

Three modifications: 535-series (phase I), 935-series (phase III) and now 937-series (phase IV).

Also:-
Quote
We now have the capability to essentially roll back to prior configurations that will provide the necessary performance for these lighter satellites while taking advantage of the cost effectiveness from the technology introduced to improve the vehicle performance over the past 10 years.
http://www.ilslaunch.com/node/4592
« Last Edit: 07/09/2016 08:49 am by Stan Black »

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #51 on: 07/22/2016 02:08 pm »
On NK Forum there was a rumor that official designation for Proton Light would be PROTON-KL 
« Last Edit: 07/25/2016 03:08 am by fregate »
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Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #52 on: 07/22/2016 04:04 pm »
Quote
Russia is currently using only one modification of the Proton carrier rocket - Proton-M, which is referred to heavy-class rockets. In the estimate of Roscosmos, this model will be used for several more years.

Three modifications: 535-series (phase I), 935-series (phase III) and now 937-series (phase IV).

Also:-
Quote
We now have the capability to essentially roll back to prior configurations that will provide the necessary performance for these lighter satellites while taking advantage of the cost effectiveness from the technology introduced to improve the vehicle performance over the past 10 years.
http://www.ilslaunch.com/node/4592
On NK Forum there was a rumor that official designation would be PROTON-KL 
The quotes that you reference do not actually apply to the Proton-KL (Proton Lite), they are only referring to the different phases of Proton-M development.

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #53 on: 08/07/2016 09:19 am »

Online Stan Black

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #54 on: 08/07/2016 06:27 pm »

A 1st stage stretch? That could also benefit the current Proton-M?

Offline Dmitry_V_home

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #55 on: 08/08/2016 03:44 pm »
A 1st stage stretch?

Yes.

That could also benefit the current Proton-M?

No. Proton-M will be improved to the Proton-M+, but its stages will practically remain invariable.

Offline Lars-J

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #56 on: 09/13/2016 06:31 am »
A new image... Two new versions? Proton Medium and Proton Light...

https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/775580518188331008

These seem like non-trivial changes. Every version has a different first stage!   ???

How likely is it that any of them will actually become reality? Only if ILS gets X orders?  ???
« Last Edit: 09/13/2016 06:38 am by Lars-J »

Offline Galactic Penguin SST

Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #57 on: 09/13/2016 11:44 am »
A new image... Two new versions? Proton Medium and Proton Light...

https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/775580518188331008

These seem like non-trivial changes. Every version has a different first stage!   ???

How likely is it that any of them will actually become reality? Only if ILS gets X orders?  ???

Yeah I am feeling strange as well, given that Proton is unlikely to stay after another decade and Khrunichev already has the Angara-A3 that will take care of that part of the launch market spectrum.  :-\
Astronomy & spaceflight geek penguin. In a relationship w/ Space Shuttle Discovery. Current Priority: Chasing the Chinese Spaceflight Wonder Egg & A Certain Chinese Mars Rover

Offline woods170

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Offline Sam Ho

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #60 on: 09/13/2016 05:38 pm »
ILS INTRODUCES EXPANDED PROTON LINE OF COST-EFFECTIVE LAUNCH VEHICLES

International Launch Services (ILS) announces a product line extension of the Proton Breeze M commercial launch vehicle designed to expand the addressable GEO market for cost effective launch solutions in the small and medium satellite class range (3 to 5 metric tons). Designated as “Proton Variants,” these two additional vehicles will be optimized 2-stage versions of the time tested and flight proven Proton Breeze M launch system for exclusive commercial use by ILS.

The Proton Variants initial launch capability will be established beginning in 2018 with the “Proton Medium” vehicle launching from Pad 24 at the Baikonur Cosmodrome. The 2-stage Proton Medium Variant will have a 4-meter payload fairing and utilize the standard Proton M configuration with 6 engines on the first stage. It will be followed in 2019 by the “Proton Light” Variant. The 2-stage Proton Light will have a 4-meter payload fairing but feature only 4 engines on the first stage. Both variants will maintain use of the flight proven and time tested Breeze M upper stage for spacecraft insertion.

The new Proton Variant commercial product line development is a result of ILS and Khrunichev working closely with customers and spacecraft manufacturers to find mutually beneficial launch solutions that are optimized for the commercial market, and aligned with its projected growth. “ILS and Khrunichev are utilizing the robust capability of the Proton Breeze M vehicle to better align our product offerings with changing market conditions while at the same time lowering its cost with a service that can address the entire commercial LEO, MEO and GEO marketplace,” said ILS President, Kirk Pysher. “Over time, the Proton launch vehicle’s performance has been enhanced to keep up with the demand for increased performance to address the trend of satellite mass growth to accommodate the heavy, High-Throughput Satellite designs. Electric and hybrid spacecraft propulsion has changed that trend and our customers have made it clear that they want the benefits of the heritage Proton Breeze M launch vehicle design but need the flexibility and cost benefits to align the vehicle’s performance to current spacecraft requirements,” said Pysher.

ILS Vice President of Engineering and Mission Assurance, Jim Kramer, is responsible for the commercial development of the Proton Variant product line. “The design aspects of the variants were directly derived from the requirements of our customers to include reducing the basic cost of the vehicle, improving the design reliability and addressing the 3 to 5 metric ton satellite performance range. With this in mind, the development of this expanded Proton product line was simplified by restricting the vehicle modifications to minimize changes to existing Proton propulsion and guidance, navigation and control (GNC) systems while making full use of the heritage flight-proven elements of the Proton Breeze M system. This is achieved through the elimination of the existing 2nd stage, minor lengthening of the remaining two booster stages and no modifications to the Breeze M upper stage. The removal of the existing 2nd stage with four engines for the Proton Medium and the additional elimination of two 1st stage engines and associated tanks for the Proton Light provides a simplified and elegant design solution to reduce cost and increase the design reliability of the expanded Proton product line,” said Kramer.

Khrunichev Director General, Andrey Kalinovskiy noted that “The Proton Variant product line will complement other launch service providers’ offerings to allow additional access to space for global operators, while increasing the addressable commercial market for Proton. Since this new product line is essentially a commercial offspring of Proton Breeze M, Khrunichev is able to optimize the design, production and operational efficiencies and transfer those savings on to our customers.  The variants will be produced for ILS using a commercial specification that will include additional oversight into the design and production of the Proton Variants. This offering will serve customers well, and will help to ensure timely delivery and assured access to space for commercial customer’s assets.”

About ILS and Khrunichev

ILS provides launch services for global satellite operators and offers a complete array of services and support, from contract signing through mission management and on-orbit delivery.  ILS markets the Proton and Angara vehicles to commercial satellite operators worldwide and is a U.S. company headquartered in Reston, VA., near Washington, D.C.

To date, ILS has launched 93 commercial missions.  For more information, visit www.ilslaunch.com.

Khrunichev, which holds the majority interest in ILS, is one of the cornerstones of the Russian space industry. Khrunichev manufactures the Proton system and the Angara family of vehicles. The Proton vehicle launches from facilities at the Baikonur Cosmodrome in Kazakhstan, and has a heritage of over 410 missions since 1965. Khrunichev includes, among its branches, a number of key manufacturers of launch vehicle and spacecraft components in Moscow and in other cities of the Russian Federation.  For more information, visit www.khrunichev.com.

####
Notes to Editors:
The composition of the new Proton Variant Launch System is identical to the Proton Breeze M and includes the following components:
• 2-Stage Proton Launch Vehicle;
• Dedicated Launch Vehicle processing facilities;
• Launch Complex (launch operations are planned from Proton M Launch Pad 24 at Baikonur Cosmodrome);
• Specialized and dedicated launch site transport system

The following is the lift capability of each of the Proton vehicles with the 4-meter payload fairing:
• Proton Breeze M launch performance is 6300 kg to 1500 meters/second (m/s) ΔV
• Proton Medium launch performance is a minimum of 5000 kg to 1500 m/s ΔV
• Proton Light launch performance is a minimum of 3600 kg to 1500 m/s ΔV

The proven Proton Breeze M launch vehicle is a three stage vehicle with a restartable main engine on the Breeze M upper stage. The vehicle has been in service since 1965 with over 410 launches to date for both the Russian Federal government and global commercial satellite operators. Over time, the vehicle has experienced phased improvements with lift capability of up to 6300 kg to reference GTO and 6500 kg to SSTO at 1500 m/s. The Proton vehicle’s Breeze M upper stage allows for optimizing each mission and maximizing projected in orbit lifetime for single or multiple satellites to LEO, MEO, HEO, GTO, GSO and SSTO.

http://www.ilslaunch.com/newsroom/news-releases/ils-introduces-expanded-proton-line-cost-effective-launch-vehicles

Offline baldusi

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #61 on: 09/13/2016 09:08 pm »
My take is that Energia presented the Sunkar in the Project Feniks and ILS decided to play "also me".

Offline B. Hendrickx

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #62 on: 09/14/2016 08:10 am »
http://izvestia.ru/news/632286

One Proton pad is to be handed over to Kazakhstan in 2020 to fly the Proton Lite and Proton Medium under the Baiterek programme, but Russia is proposing the Kazakh side to stop flying those Proton modifications when the Sunkar rocket starts commercial operations from Baikonur in 2025. Sunkar is a two-stage LOX/kerosene vehicle being developed under the Feniks programme. First test flight (presumably from the Zenit pad at Baikonur) expected in 2024.

Offline Ronsmytheiii

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #63 on: 09/16/2016 02:48 pm »
Based on this piece featured on SpaceNews, seems the new Light and Medium variants are built to take on Falcon 9 and Ariane 5:

Quote
LS’s main competitors are Arianespace of Europe, whose Ariane 5 rocket is designed to launch two geostationary satellites at a time, one large and one relatively small; and SpaceX’s Falcon 9, which has established itself as the market’s low-cost option but recently was grounded following a launch pad accident. SpaceX has also sold commercial launches aboard its Falcon Heavy vehicle, which has yet to make its first flight.

On its website, SpaceX – a relative newcomer to the market – advertises an 8.3-metric-ton Falcon 9 lift capability to geostationary transfer orbit. But the commercial telecom satellites launched on the rocket to date have, with one exception, weighed less than 5 metric tons, and this is the market ILS is addressing with the new Proton Variants.

http://spacenews.com/sponsored/ils-variant/

The question is how much of an impact Proton will have on this already busy field.


Online Stan Black

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #65 on: 09/20/2016 08:14 pm »
There is an alternate illustration of the Proton Light. It has a 1st stage that is the same length as the Proton Medium. The oxidiser tank volume is decreased?

http://www.roscosmos.ru/media/img/foto/proton_lait.jpg

Offline GClark

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #66 on: 09/20/2016 10:31 pm »
Assuming the hatched areas are the extensions, that would appear to be the case.

Looks like they're working the trades.  It will be interesting to see what comes out the far end of this.

My .02 (and it's probably not worth even that much):  Seems like a lot of effort for what you get in the end.

Offline Sam Ho

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #67 on: 09/20/2016 11:00 pm »
http://www.ilslaunch.com/launch-services/proton-variants-proton-medium-and-proton-light-vehicles
http://www.ilslaunch.com/newsroom/photo-gallery/image/proton-medium-ascent-profile

1st stage throttles?

Squinting at that image, I think the first stage throttle-back is done by cutting off two engines early.  I think it reads 11MN (6 eng.) and 7.3 MN (4 eng.)

Offline Danderman

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #68 on: 09/21/2016 04:51 am »
With the elimination of the current 2nd stage, the two new variants would require new drop zones for the first stage, as a lighter stack is going to result in more Delta-V for the first stage at burnout. One benefit would be that the first stage would be more shredded during return to Earth, rather than impacting virtually intact. This may have beneficial environmental effects as presumably more residual prop would be lost during return to Earth at higher velocities.

Explanation: unless most current booster stages, the current Proton first stage only burns for two minutes (like the Shuttle SRBs), which means that it doesn't go very fast or fly very high. But it does contain toxic propellants, so landing intact means prop spillage on the ground. Flying faster and higher, especially with a stretched first stage, would result in less spillage on the ground.   The stretched first stage would burn for 143 seconds, per the chart above.

Having said that, it is unlikely that any of these variants will ever fly; if there is a newer version of Proton that does fly, it will have the least amount of modifications. In particular, the drop zone change issue is non-trivial.

« Last Edit: 09/21/2016 04:54 am by Danderman »

Online Stan Black

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #69 on: 09/25/2016 09:24 pm »
The Proton stages are transported by rail to the launch site; in carriages designated as articles 8Т190 and 8Т730. Are these able to accommodate the extended 1st stage?

Offline Danderman

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #70 on: 03/07/2017 11:54 pm »
My guess is that once development of a stretched first stage is paid for, that stretched first stage would become the standard Proton first stage, with the engines tasked to provide a little more thrust to carry the Proton/Briz stack. I don't see Khrunichev producing one type of first stage for these Medium and Light variants, and a smaller first stage for the standard variant.

We might even see the stretched "third" stage that would serve as the Light "second" stage become the standard Proton third stage.

This would have the result of making the standard Proton launcher a much more capable system.

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #71 on: 03/08/2017 04:03 am »
The Proton stages are transported by rail to the launch site; in carriages designated as articles 8Т190 and 8Т730. Are these able to accommodate the extended 1st stage?
If the length of the launcher increases the TE railcar will need to modified or replaced to strengthen and support the moved Center of Gravity and mass. Im not sure if the ground portion of the TE would need modifications, but when Proton-K came into being the lifting mechanism was replaced with a more capable one.

Online Stan Black

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #72 on: 03/08/2017 03:13 pm »


A 1st stage stretch? That could also benefit the current Proton-M?

So make the 1st stage and 3rd stage longer, but make the 2nd stage shorter by giving it outboard tanks like the 1st stage?
« Last Edit: 03/08/2017 03:16 pm by Stan Black »

Offline Lars-J

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #73 on: 03/08/2017 05:42 pm »
I don't know. The talk about these new Proton variants and the 5 m fairing options makes it seem like Khrunichev is flailing around in desperation to attract customers.

It can't make any kind of economic sense to create this specialized (and costly) versions of Proton instead of keeping the production line simpler with one model.


Offline Danderman

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #75 on: 03/09/2017 02:44 am »
New design: no third stage!

http://www.ilslaunch.com/sites/default/files/pdf/Proton-Medium-Brochure.pdf
http://www.ilslaunch.com/sites/default/files/pdf/SAT2017-PressBriefing.pdf

so, for the price of not building a third stage, performance drops significantly.

My guess is that ILS is looking for customers with somewhat relaxed payload requirements to see if they can snag one; if so, they could provide them with a 2 stage Proton-M/Briz-M.


« Last Edit: 03/09/2017 02:45 am by Danderman »

Offline calapine

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #76 on: 03/09/2017 02:25 pm »
Comparison of the old (first image) and new design (second image).

IMHO the new concept makes more sense

- No stretched versions of 1st and 3rd stage required
- No auxillary tanks (in case of Proton L)
- Only 2 family models instead of 3

More or less: Fly without the 3rd stage for 1.27 tons less payload capacity.
« Last Edit: 03/09/2017 02:31 pm by calapine »

Offline Lars-J

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #77 on: 03/09/2017 05:30 pm »
It does seem to make more sense, but is the 2nd stage capable of making the burn(s) that the 3rd stage would have made? Is there a restart involved?

Offline calapine

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #78 on: 03/09/2017 05:49 pm »
According to the linked slide the 2nd stage throttles down and subsequently shuts off 1 then later 3 out of 4 engines.

The Breeze upper stage performs a total 5 burns.

Interesting concept.

Offline Welsh Dragon

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #79 on: 03/10/2017 08:31 am »
That is interesting indeed, having odd numbers of engines burning in a square four engine cluster. That's going to take some gimballing and loss of efficiency to keep trust though the centre of gravity.

Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #80 on: 03/10/2017 03:54 pm »
While getting excited about "things Proton", let us remember that 50 years ago today we had the debut of the three-stage Proton-K with the Blok D being used as a fourth stage.
I've always been crazy but it's kept me from going insane - WJ.

Offline fregate

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #81 on: 03/17/2017 03:52 am »
While getting excited about "things Proton", let us remember that 50 years ago today we had the debut of the three-stage Proton-K with the Blok D being used as a fourth stage.
That is true but Proton became an operational LV only in 1977 :(
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Offline Galactic Penguin SST

Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #82 on: 10/13/2017 04:01 pm »
New article interviewing with ILS president on Proton Medium: http://spacenews.com/ils-says-proton-medium-will-compete-head-to-head-with-falcon-9/

- Proton Medium's planned price is between $55M - $65M.
- ILS admitted that Angara A5 will not be able to meet this target and will be flying at low rates for the next few years.
Astronomy & spaceflight geek penguin. In a relationship w/ Space Shuttle Discovery. Current Priority: Chasing the Chinese Spaceflight Wonder Egg & A Certain Chinese Mars Rover

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #83 on: 10/13/2017 05:03 pm »
New article interviewing with ILS president on Proton Medium: http://spacenews.com/ils-says-proton-medium-will-compete-head-to-head-with-falcon-9/

- Proton Medium's planned price is between $55M - $65M.
- ILS admitted that Angara A5 will not be able to meet this target and will be flying at low rates for the next few years.

It wont until Angara A1M, Angara A3M and Angara A5M leave development and are implemented to correct concerns from data generated by the first 2 Angara launches.

Offline Star One

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Khrunichev working on "Proton Light"
« Reply #84 on: 10/13/2017 07:55 pm »
New article interviewing with ILS president on Proton Medium: http://spacenews.com/ils-says-proton-medium-will-compete-head-to-head-with-falcon-9/

- Proton Medium's planned price is between $55M - $65M.
- ILS admitted that Angara A5 will not be able to meet this target and will be flying at low rates for the next few years.

It wont until Angara A1M, Angara A3M and Angara A5M leave development and are implemented to correct concerns from data generated by the first 2 Angara launches.

Yes already posted in the correct thread.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42481
« Last Edit: 10/13/2017 07:56 pm by Star One »

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