Isn't that just the ongoing Proton-M update? The last phase IV was recently flown.See http://russianspaceweb.com/proton-m.html
But the second stage would not be restartable. It could do what, 12tonnes to LEO? That is sort of overkill. If they add a Briz-M what can it do to GTO? I would guess 3.5tonnes or so. May be more?
Quote from: baldusi on 06/22/2016 01:39 pmBut the second stage would not be restartable. It could do what, 12tonnes to LEO? That is sort of overkill. If they add a Briz-M what can it do to GTO? I would guess 3.5tonnes or so. May be more?So what? Neither the current second nor third stages of the Proton-M are restartable.
Quote from: baldusi on 06/22/2016 01:39 pmBut the second stage would not be restartable. It could do what, 12tonnes to LEO? That is sort of overkill. If they add a Briz-M what can it do to GTO? I would guess 3.5tonnes or so. May be more?5 tonnes to GTO. With Briz-M upper stage. And about 19 tonnes to LEO.
Looks like this is a two-stage Proton consisting of the first and third stages of the Proton-M with an increased propellant load in the third (now second) stage. This has been discussed for a while on the NK forum, but it escaped my attention. http://novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/forum/forum13/topic1114/Someone posted a drawing on the NK forum a while ago.
That much? I have to do numbers always rather than intuition, clearly. Still would seem like too big for LEO. Not that Proton-M is used much (still to debut with MLM).How much cheaper for 5tonnes to GTO? 75M? It could compete with Ariane 5/F9 if the reliability was there.
Quote from: baldusi on 06/22/2016 06:35 pmThat much? I have to do numbers always rather than intuition, clearly. Still would seem like too big for LEO. Not that Proton-M is used much (still to debut with MLM).How much cheaper for 5tonnes to GTO? 75M? It could compete with Ariane 5/F9 if the reliability was there.19 tons are a result of calculation. 5 tons are information from Khrunichev's Center. Considering a current rate of ruble, I think, the cost of launch can make about $50 M.
So, depending on how depressed the ruble stays, Proton Light is cheaper than Falcon 9, and avoids ITAR entanglements. That should allow it to win a few contracts.
I can't read the italics in the drawing, but this appears to be a standard 2 stage Proton, ie the initial variant, with some modifications. The second stage in the drawing has the standard 4 engine set that makes up RD-212.
Quote from: Danderman on 06/24/2016 01:55 pmI can't read the italics in the drawing, but this appears to be a standard 2 stage Proton, ie the initial variant, with some modifications. The second stage in the drawing has the standard 4 engine set that makes up RD-212.The option represented in drawing includes a reference first stage of "Proton-M", and also the second stage equipped with one RD0212 engine (the stage is the increased version of a third stage "Proton-M").
The RD-0212 engine is made up of four engines.
I don't see how this "Light" concept can use all six first stage engines. The end-of-first-stage acceleration forces would be significant (~9g), and the liftoff thrust is not needed (T/W ~1.8+). Could Proton Light dispense with a couple of the first stage engines in addition to the second stage? - Ed Kyle
Quote from: simonbp on 06/23/2016 07:05 pmSo, depending on how depressed the ruble stays, Proton Light is cheaper than Falcon 9, and avoids ITAR entanglements. That should allow it to win a few contracts.How does Proton avoid ITAR? If anything, ITAR could be used to prevent Russia launching any satellites with US technology, just like with China.
Quote from: edkyle99 on 06/24/2016 09:51 pmI don't see how this "Light" concept can use all six first stage engines. The end-of-first-stage acceleration forces would be significant (~9g), and the liftoff thrust is not needed (T/W ~1.8+). Could Proton Light dispense with a couple of the first stage engines in addition to the second stage? - Ed Kyle Several options of restriction of longitudinal accelerations are offered during the work of a first stage, depending on option of realization of the rocket:1) Throttling2) Decrease in a reserve of fuel in hinged tanks and earlier shutdown of two of six engines.The size of a longitudinal acceleration does not exceed 5-6,5 g.
После набора готовности к пуску приблизительно за 1,75 с (Т – 1,75 с) до запуска включаются шесть двигателей первой ступени РД-276 и набирают 107 % в момент подачи сигнала «Контакт подъема» (КП), через 6 секунд полёта тяга возрастает до 112 % от номинала.
http://izvestia.ru/news/619538The ultimate goal of Baiterek is to fly a Zenit replacement from the existing Zenit pad at Baikonur. Russia will pay for the development of the rocket and Kazakhstan will shoulder the cost of modifying the ground infrastructure. Medvedev says the first stage will use an RD-171 engine (like Zenit). No decision has been made yet on the configuration of the second stage, but Medvedev says it will use an existing engine. The upper stage will probably be a modified Block-DM.
Quote from: B. Hendrickx on 06/27/2016 09:24 amhttp://izvestia.ru/news/619538The ultimate goal of Baiterek is to fly a Zenit replacement from the existing Zenit pad at Baikonur. Russia will pay for the development of the rocket and Kazakhstan will shoulder the cost of modifying the ground infrastructure. Medvedev says the first stage will use an RD-171 engine (like Zenit). No decision has been made yet on the configuration of the second stage, but Medvedev says it will use an existing engine. The upper stage will probably be a modified Block-DM.Something like it
Quote from: Dmitry_V_home on 06/27/2016 06:31 pmQuote from: B. Hendrickx on 06/27/2016 09:24 amhttp://izvestia.ru/news/619538The ultimate goal of Baiterek is to fly a Zenit replacement from the existing Zenit pad at Baikonur. Russia will pay for the development of the rocket and Kazakhstan will shoulder the cost of modifying the ground infrastructure. Medvedev says the first stage will use an RD-171 engine (like Zenit). No decision has been made yet on the configuration of the second stage, but Medvedev says it will use an existing engine. The upper stage will probably be a modified Block-DM.Something like it Dmitry, let's compare engine thrust for second stage propulsion for "conditionally" EXISTING engines Upgraded RD-120 from current Zenit LV - 912 kN (without RD-8 vernier engine) RD-0124A from Angara URM-2 - 294.3 kN 2xRD-0125A (a single nozzle derivative of RD-0124A ) = 2x289,4=578.8 kN RD-191V (with extended nozzle) 2090 kN (!)
Rule of thumb is that for a 2 stage rocket, the US should be around 20% of the 1st stage mass and a T/W 0.7~1.0. Given the volumentric limitations for Voistochny, I doubt that they will be able to make an efficient first stage with more than 350tonnes. So second stage should be 55 to 75 tonnes or so.Lower bound, would be 0.7 * 55 = 38.5tnf and upper bound 75tnf. They could replicate the Zenit and use an 11D123M (improved RD-120), but I would guess that they could very much get away with dual RD-0125A. Which would seem like the most straight forward plan since the RD-120M is actually built in Ukraine, while the RD-0124 and I would guess the RD-0125A would be built at the Voronezh Mechanical Plant. I guess NPO Energomash could very well build it, too. But serial production of small engines is usually handled by the LV factories.
Quote from: baldusi on 06/28/2016 12:43 pmRule of thumb is that for a 2 stage rocket, the US should be around 20% of the 1st stage mass and a T/W 0.7~1.0. Given the volumentric limitations for Voistochny, I doubt that they will be able to make an efficient first stage with more than 350tonnes. So second stage should be 55 to 75 tonnes or so.Lower bound, would be 0.7 * 55 = 38.5tnf and upper bound 75tnf. They could replicate the Zenit and use an 11D123M (improved RD-120), but I would guess that they could very much get away with dual RD-0125A. Which would seem like the most straight forward plan since the RD-120M is actually built in Ukraine, while the RD-0124 and I would guess the RD-0125A would be built at the Voronezh Mechanical Plant. I guess NPO Energomash could very well build it, too. But serial production of small engines is usually handled by the LV factories.Really, the best results can be received when using on a second stage of two RD0125 engines (two combustors) or RD0124 (eight combustors).Optimization of parameters of the rocket shows that with a starting mass of 516 metric tons (on a first stage RD-171M) the maximal mass of a payload (more than 18 tons) is reached when using on a second stage of the engine by thrust 65 tf (the used fuel reserve about 59 tons).
Quote from: Dmitry_V_home on 06/28/2016 04:08 pmQuote from: baldusi on 06/28/2016 12:43 pmRule of thumb is that for a 2 stage rocket, the US should be around 20% of the 1st stage mass and a T/W 0.7~1.0. Given the volumentric limitations for Voistochny, I doubt that they will be able to make an efficient first stage with more than 350tonnes. So second stage should be 55 to 75 tonnes or so.Lower bound, would be 0.7 * 55 = 38.5tnf and upper bound 75tnf. They could replicate the Zenit and use an 11D123M (improved RD-120), but I would guess that they could very much get away with dual RD-0125A. Which would seem like the most straight forward plan since the RD-120M is actually built in Ukraine, while the RD-0124 and I would guess the RD-0125A would be built at the Voronezh Mechanical Plant. I guess NPO Energomash could very well build it, too. But serial production of small engines is usually handled by the LV factories.Really, the best results can be received when using on a second stage of two RD0125 engines (two combustors) or RD0124 (eight combustors).Optimization of parameters of the rocket shows that with a starting mass of 516 metric tons (on a first stage RD-171M) the maximal mass of a payload (more than 18 tons) is reached when using on a second stage of the engine by thrust 65 tf (the used fuel reserve about 59 tons).Can they make a 516 tonne first stage that is train transportable to Voistochny and Plesesk?
Quote from: baldusi on 06/28/2016 04:55 pmCan they make a 516 tonne first stage that is train transportable to Voistochny and Plesesk?ALexandro, they are NOT going to transport FUELED stage! Mass of empty stage is not a CONSTRAINT. Diameter 3.8m is the one due to tunnel limitations to Russian Far East. We need a BIIGER ship, oops PLANE to fit 4.1 first stage
Can they make a 516 tonne first stage that is train transportable to Voistochny and Plesesk?
Quote from: fregate on 06/29/2016 07:21 amQuote from: baldusi on 06/28/2016 04:55 pmCan they make a 516 tonne first stage that is train transportable to Voistochny and Plesesk?ALexandro, they are NOT going to transport FUELED stage! Mass of empty stage is not a CONSTRAINT. Diameter 3.8m is the one due to tunnel limitations to Russian Far East. We need a BIIGER ship, oops PLANE to fit 4.1 first stage I perfectly understand. But RG-1/LOX at 2.7 O/F is about .97tn/m³. I understand that stages should be 3.8m OD and no longer than 25m. RD-171M is 4m long, less 1m for plumbing, and 1m for other, leave an effective volume, assuming common bulkhead, of 3.75m D x 19m. That has a 210m³ of effective tank volume. That would be a 225tonne stage (wet mass).Of course the stage alone would be 15 to 20 tonnes when dry. But my worry is about the available volume. The Zenit first stage is 3.9m x 32.9m and they can only put 327tonnes of propellant. If I'm not mistaken a stage able to carry 480 tonnes of propellant with an RD-171M and a 4.1m outer diameter would have to be at least 43m long. An An-124 cargo hold is just 36m long. But it would be just right for the An-225. Since I don't see Russia buying it, I don't think it would be air portable, unless Russia did some sort of An-124 variation with reinforcements to carry a stage on top, just like the An-225 did with Energyia.
About the energija/zenit-derived launcher with RD-191V upper stage:RD-191V sounds like a huge amount of thrust for second stage.Falcon 9 already has quite a powerful second stage compared to many other rockets of similar class, but this has more than twice the thrust and better isp than falcon 9 second stage.But the second stage of this rocket never has to go to GTO because russians use separate upper stage for that?The thrust is even 1.5 times more thrust than Ares I second stage was going to have, even though Ares I was going to stage very low.
NPO energomash could always scale down RD-191V for optimal thrust (Just follow the roadmap RD-171->RD-180->RD-191 and so on .
RD-151, perhaps?That said, if Dmitry's graphic bears a nodding resemblance to reality it looks like an RD-0124.IANARS.
http://izvestia.ru/news/619538Dmitriy Medvedev, the Roskosmos official in charge of launch vehicle programs (and a former head of the Khrunichev Centre), says in Izvestiya today that the two-stage Proton is seen as a continuation of the joint Russian-Kazakh Baiterek venture (which earlier envisaged the use of Angara-5 and then the Zenit rocket). However, the two-stage Proton is just an interim step towards the development of a Zenit replacement that will also fly from Baikonur under the Baiterek program.This is what Medvedev says about the two-stage Proton :"If we look at the trends in the development of satellites, we see that with the appearance of electrically-powered engines the mass of satellites has begun to go down. Geostationary satellites weigh 3 to 4.5 tons. This is why lighter rockets are needed, which is something that Elon Musk realized when developing the Falcon-9 rocket. This rocket has a GTO capacity of 4.85 tonnes, whereas the Proton can put 6.3 tonnes into GTO. This is why from the standpoint of current market demands the Proton is oversized. The solution we have come up with is to remove the second stage from the Proton-M. We're not building a new rocket, we're just modifying an existing one. Of course, some changes will be needed, but they will not be too complicated and expensive. In this configuration the rocket can put up to 5 tonnes into GTO. It will become about 25 % cheaper and the cost of launching payloads will go down and therefore we can fill this niche in the market. This project is seen by our Kazakh partners as a continuation of Baiterek."The ultimate goal of Baiterek is to fly a Zenit replacement from the existing Zenit pad at Baikonur. Russia will pay for the development of the rocket and Kazakhstan will shoulder the cost of modifying the ground infrastructure. Medvedev says the first stage will use an RD-171 engine (like Zenit). No decision has been made yet on the configuration of the second stage, but Medvedev says it will use an existing engine. The upper stage will probably be a modified Block-DM.The development of a Zenit replacement under the name "Feniks" (Phoenix) is included in the Federal Space Program for 2016-2025. A total of 30 billion rubles has been earmarked for Feniks in the FSP 2016-2025, with development scheduled to get underway in earnest in 2018. The Russians have earlier said that the first stage of Feniks may eventually serve as a strap-on booster for a new heavy-lift launch vehicle, very much like the Zenit first stage served as a strap-on booster for Energia. Last January Roskosmos chief Igor Komarov said a final decision on the configuration of the heavy-lift launch vehicle will be made in 2017. He also said that for the time being there are no plans to build a Feniks pad at Vostochnyy. See :http://tass.ru/kosmos/2600127So the plan right now seems to be to fly Feniks only from Baikonur (which makes sense, because it is compatible with the existing Zenit pad) and eventually build a pad for the new heavy-lift rocket at Vostochnyy.
Quote from: hkultala on 06/29/2016 07:34 amAbout the energija/zenit-derived launcher with RD-191V upper stage:RD-191V sounds like a huge amount of thrust for second stage.Falcon 9 already has quite a powerful second stage compared to many other rockets of similar class, but this has more than twice the thrust and better isp than falcon 9 second stage.But the second stage of this rocket never has to go to GTO because russians use separate upper stage for that?The thrust is even 1.5 times more thrust than Ares I second stage was going to have, even though Ares I was going to stage very low.NPO energomash could always scale down RD-191V for optimal thrust (Just follow the roadmap RD-171->RD-180->RD-191 and so on . Even now engine has quite good throttling capabilities. Plus extendable nozzle could be bigger - current edition of RD-191V was designed for Stage I and Stage II propulsion and has to satisfy launch pad geometry constraints.
Quote from: B. Hendrickx on 06/27/2016 09:24 amhttp://izvestia.ru/news/619538Dmitriy Medvedev, the Roskosmos official in charge of launch vehicle programs (and a former head of the Khrunichev Centre), says in Izvestiya today that the two-stage Proton is seen as a continuation of the joint Russian-Kazakh Baiterek venture (which earlier envisaged the use of Angara-5 and then the Zenit rocket). However, the two-stage Proton is just an interim step towards the development of a Zenit replacement that will also fly from Baikonur under the Baiterek program.Dmitry Medvedev is the Prime Minister. I think you mean Alexander.Oops. Yes, of course.
http://izvestia.ru/news/619538Dmitriy Medvedev, the Roskosmos official in charge of launch vehicle programs (and a former head of the Khrunichev Centre), says in Izvestiya today that the two-stage Proton is seen as a continuation of the joint Russian-Kazakh Baiterek venture (which earlier envisaged the use of Angara-5 and then the Zenit rocket). However, the two-stage Proton is just an interim step towards the development of a Zenit replacement that will also fly from Baikonur under the Baiterek program.Dmitry Medvedev is the Prime Minister. I think you mean Alexander.
This thread has strayed a long way from discussing the "Proton Light" launch vehicle, with half or more of the discussion being about a Zenit-follow-on launch vehicle.Should we have two separate threads here?
Russia may develop Proton carrier rocket's light version in 2018 — manufacturerMOSCOW, July 8. /TASS/. The light modification of Russia’s Proton carrier rocket may be developed in 2018, Khrunichev Space Center Head Andrei Kalinovsky said on Friday. "We hope, in 2018," he said, responding to a journalists’ question about the possible timeframe of developing a new version of the carrier rocket.The project is "at the stage of making a decision," the head of the Khrunichev Space Center said."We agree the issues at various levels for making a decision, including technical characteristics. It has to be understood that this project is commercial. The required business plan is available," he said, adding that the approval process was under way.The development of the light version of the Proton carrier rocket was announced in June by State Space Corporation Roscosmos CEO Igor Komarov.According to him, the developers are set to increase the rocket’s efficiency and cut the cost of bringing a kilogram of payload into outer space.Russia is currently using only one modification of the Proton carrier rocket - Proton-M, which is referred to heavy-class rockets. In the estimate of Roscosmos, this model will be used for several more years.
Russia and Kazakhstan agree on ways of implementing Baiterek projectMOSCOW, July 8 /TASS/. Russian Vice-Premier Dmitry Rogozin said on Friday that Russia and Kazakhstan had reached understanding on ways of implementing the Baiterek project for the development of a new space rocket complex."We have reached understanding on how to implement the Baiterek joint project, which is vitally important for both countries," Rogozin told an extended meeting of the Russian-Kazakhstani inter-governmental commission on Friday."The Russian side had prepared and handed over to the Kazakhstani side several possible scenarios for a future layout and places for deployment of components as well as the cost parameters of the Baiterek space rocket complex.According to Rogozin, the two countries’ experts agreed that the final decision would be passed in September this year.The Russian vice-premier added that the sides were planning to sign a joint action plan for implementing the Baiterek project at the IV session of the Russian-Kazakhstani inter-governmental commission. He also added that the Russian side had met all the commitments linked to training experts for the Baiterek joint venture who will later prepare components for the launch of Proton-M rockets as part of joint crews.According to the vice-premier, Kazakhastani experts will soon be able to help launching this type of carrier rockets. "They are undergoing training and will soon be able to be directly involved in the work of the ground infrastructure of the Proton-M space rocket complex," Rogozin said."We do not rule out that in case of positive experience - we have no doubt that it’s going to be positive - Kazakhstani experts will join joint crews at other rocket launch complexes at Baikonur.
QuoteRussia is currently using only one modification of the Proton carrier rocket - Proton-M, which is referred to heavy-class rockets. In the estimate of Roscosmos, this model will be used for several more years.
Russia is currently using only one modification of the Proton carrier rocket - Proton-M, which is referred to heavy-class rockets. In the estimate of Roscosmos, this model will be used for several more years.
We now have the capability to essentially roll back to prior configurations that will provide the necessary performance for these lighter satellites while taking advantage of the cost effectiveness from the technology introduced to improve the vehicle performance over the past 10 years.
Quote from: Stan Black on 07/09/2016 08:48 amQuote from: B. Hendrickx on 07/08/2016 10:38 pmQuoteRussia is currently using only one modification of the Proton carrier rocket - Proton-M, which is referred to heavy-class rockets. In the estimate of Roscosmos, this model will be used for several more years.Three modifications: 535-series (phase I), 935-series (phase III) and now 937-series (phase IV).Also:-QuoteWe now have the capability to essentially roll back to prior configurations that will provide the necessary performance for these lighter satellites while taking advantage of the cost effectiveness from the technology introduced to improve the vehicle performance over the past 10 years.http://www.ilslaunch.com/node/4592On NK Forum there was a rumor that official designation would be PROTON-KL
Quote from: B. Hendrickx on 07/08/2016 10:38 pmQuoteRussia is currently using only one modification of the Proton carrier rocket - Proton-M, which is referred to heavy-class rockets. In the estimate of Roscosmos, this model will be used for several more years.Three modifications: 535-series (phase I), 935-series (phase III) and now 937-series (phase IV).Also:-QuoteWe now have the capability to essentially roll back to prior configurations that will provide the necessary performance for these lighter satellites while taking advantage of the cost effectiveness from the technology introduced to improve the vehicle performance over the past 10 years.http://www.ilslaunch.com/node/4592
A 1st stage stretch?
That could also benefit the current Proton-M?
A new image... Two new versions? Proton Medium and Proton Light... https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/775580518188331008These seem like non-trivial changes. Every version has a different first stage! How likely is it that any of them will actually become reality? Only if ILS gets X orders?
LS’s main competitors are Arianespace of Europe, whose Ariane 5 rocket is designed to launch two geostationary satellites at a time, one large and one relatively small; and SpaceX’s Falcon 9, which has established itself as the market’s low-cost option but recently was grounded following a launch pad accident. SpaceX has also sold commercial launches aboard its Falcon Heavy vehicle, which has yet to make its first flight.On its website, SpaceX – a relative newcomer to the market – advertises an 8.3-metric-ton Falcon 9 lift capability to geostationary transfer orbit. But the commercial telecom satellites launched on the rocket to date have, with one exception, weighed less than 5 metric tons, and this is the market ILS is addressing with the new Proton Variants.
http://www.ilslaunch.com/launch-services/proton-variants-proton-medium-and-proton-light-vehicleshttp://www.ilslaunch.com/newsroom/photo-gallery/image/proton-medium-ascent-profile1st stage throttles?
The Proton stages are transported by rail to the launch site; in carriages designated as articles 8Т190 and 8Т730. Are these able to accommodate the extended 1st stage?
A 1st stage stretch? That could also benefit the current Proton-M?
New design: no third stage!http://www.ilslaunch.com/sites/default/files/pdf/Proton-Medium-Brochure.pdfhttp://www.ilslaunch.com/sites/default/files/pdf/SAT2017-PressBriefing.pdf
While getting excited about "things Proton", let us remember that 50 years ago today we had the debut of the three-stage Proton-K with the Blok D being used as a fourth stage.
New article interviewing with ILS president on Proton Medium: http://spacenews.com/ils-says-proton-medium-will-compete-head-to-head-with-falcon-9/- Proton Medium's planned price is between $55M - $65M.- ILS admitted that Angara A5 will not be able to meet this target and will be flying at low rates for the next few years.
Quote from: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/13/2017 04:01 pmNew article interviewing with ILS president on Proton Medium: http://spacenews.com/ils-says-proton-medium-will-compete-head-to-head-with-falcon-9/- Proton Medium's planned price is between $55M - $65M.- ILS admitted that Angara A5 will not be able to meet this target and will be flying at low rates for the next few years.It wont until Angara A1M, Angara A3M and Angara A5M leave development and are implemented to correct concerns from data generated by the first 2 Angara launches.