Poll

So, anyone want to guess if Blue Origin will be ready for Artemis V?

Yeah, they'll build a robust lander with time to spare.
6 (20%)
They will need many waivers for non-conforming hardware, but they'll make it.
3 (10%)
They will delay Artemis V by some noticeable time span, but eventually they will make it.
13 (43.3%)
SpaceX will have to provide hardware for Artemis V.
8 (26.7%)
Other (please specify)
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 30

Voting closed: 06/01/2023 07:41 pm


Author Topic: Starship Artemis Contract & Lunar Starship  (Read 1073970 times)

Offline Slarty1080

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #40 on: 04/30/2020 07:30 pm »
Would you actually NEED a sea level raptor engine for a ship that never lands on earth and only flies in earth's atmosphere once?
Yes because it need to take off from Earth.
My optimistic hope is that it will become cool to really think about things... rather than just doing reactive bullsh*t based on no knowledge (Brian Cox)

Offline capoman

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #41 on: 04/30/2020 07:31 pm »
Congrats SpaceX on getting this contract.

Another side benefit is that it might light a fire under the others to get their hardware completed. SpaceX can make them look awful slow in comparison if they don't bring their A game!

Online matthewkantar

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #42 on: 04/30/2020 07:38 pm »
Would you actually NEED a sea level raptor engine for a ship that never lands on earth and only flies in earth's atmosphere once?
Yes because it need to take off from Earth.

But Starship does not have to take off from earth, it has to take off from atop Super Heavy, around 100 kilometers from Earth's surface.

Offline RonM

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #43 on: 04/30/2020 07:39 pm »
I am personally really really surprised the Boeing isn't even in the shortlist... Thats the most shocking thing about this to me.

I'm not surprised. NASA wants to spread the money around and Boeing is building SLS.

Offline envy887

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #44 on: 04/30/2020 07:40 pm »
Does anyone have a link for the conops for this lunar starship? Here are my questions:

1. How does it get to lunar orbit the first time? Does this always stay between the lunar surface and NRHO once in place?
2. How is it refueled in NRHO? How many launches from Earth does it take to get a tanker to NRHO with sufficient fuel?

Thanks

Starting fully fueled in LEO, a 110 t Starship can bring 10 t of payload to NRHO, then to the lunar surface, then back to NRHO without any refueling. It takes a total of 8 launches to fill it in LEO.

A refueling tanker takes the same number of launches. So every crew landing will require 8 Starship/Superheavy launches. But it's a fully reusable system throughout (except for the SLS used to launch the crew to NRHO).

Offline freddo411

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #45 on: 04/30/2020 07:43 pm »
Jim B specifically mentioned that the Gateway almost certainly won't be part of the first landing.

So, given an Orion and a Lander rendezvous in Lunar orbit,  what orbits are possible besides NRHO given Orion's capabilities?

Would a different high lunar orbit significantly reduce the long travel time from the surface to NRHO?   If so, I think this would be an important safety consideration.


Offline livingjw

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #46 on: 04/30/2020 07:46 pm »
Does anyone have a link for the conops for this lunar starship? Here are my questions:

1. How does it get to lunar orbit the first time? Does this always stay between the lunar surface and NRHO once in place?
2. How is it refueled in NRHO? How many launches from Earth does it take to get a tanker to NRHO with sufficient fuel?

Thanks

Starting fully fueled in LEO, a 110 t Starship can bring 10 t of payload to NRHO, then to the lunar surface, then back to NRHO without any refueling. It takes a total of 8 launches to fill it in LEO.

A refueling tanker takes the same number of launches. So every crew landing will require 8 Starship/Superheavy launches. But it's a fully reusable system throughout (except for the SLS used to launch the crew to NRHO).

How much could they land on the Moon if it was going to stay there permanently? A lot! Starter base makes sense to me. I'll shut up about it now. Sorry. I really want a nice Moon Base.

John

Offline capoman

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #47 on: 04/30/2020 07:48 pm »
I am personally really really surprised the Boeing isn't even in the shortlist... Thats the most shocking thing about this to me.

I'm not surprised. NASA wants to spread the money around and Boeing is building SLS.

I'm not so sure about this. I think there is more to Boeing not getting a contract than it may appear. Boeing has not been performing well on several fronts, including SLS and Starliner. Last thing they want to do is to distract their team by giving them yet another project to work on. This might be a bit of a shot across the bow. Also, if Starship gets to the point that they do in-flight refueling and landing on the moon, it's not much of a stretch for Starship to launch and land from Earth if SLS continues to falter. I'm sure that's on Jim's mind, even if he doesn't bring it up.

Offline OTV Booster

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #48 on: 04/30/2020 07:49 pm »
Reality has finally arrived. It will be interesting to follow this side project for SpaceX. How to handle fast iterations with crew approved design. By looking at the dragon they will probably have to make some major design changes that will prolong time to flight.


Once it’s crew certified the changes stop. F9 block 5 design is frozen because of HSF qualification. Minor changes allowed.


As a guess, I’d say that with the accompanying cash infusion, the SS development program will shift direction a bit. The moon ship variant will get a priority over StarLink but in parallel with tanker. It all feeds into mars plans, maybe setting it back a synod, maybe not.


However it actually shakes out Elon will take the opportunity to let his real genius show - R&D on somebody else’s dime. ;)


Phil
We are on the cusp of revolutionary access to space. One hallmark of a revolution is that there is a disjuncture through which projections do not work. The thread must be picked up anew and the tapestry of history woven with a fresh pattern.

Offline wannamoonbase

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #49 on: 04/30/2020 07:50 pm »
Does anyone have a link for the conops for this lunar starship? Here are my questions:

1. How does it get to lunar orbit the first time? Does this always stay between the lunar surface and NRHO once in place?
2. How is it refueled in NRHO? How many launches from Earth does it take to get a tanker to NRHO with sufficient fuel?

Thanks

Starting fully fueled in LEO, a 110 t Starship can bring 10 t of payload to NRHO, then to the lunar surface, then back to NRHO without any refueling. It takes a total of 8 launches to fill it in LEO.

A refueling tanker takes the same number of launches. So every crew landing will require 8 Starship/Superheavy launches. But it's a fully reusable system throughout (except for the SLS used to launch the crew to NRHO).

How much could they land on the Moon if it was going to stay there permanently? A lot! Starter base makes sense to me. I'll shut up about it now. Sorry. I really want a nice Moon Base.

John

John, me too.  Me too.

I'd love to see them take a Starship to the moon and get it on to it's side.

Producing LOx on the moon will simplify logistics.
Wildly optimistic prediction, Superheavy recovery on IFT-4 or IFT-5

Offline OTV Booster

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #50 on: 04/30/2020 07:55 pm »
Interesting, special landing thrusters. Certainly useful on the moon.


Six raptors are way overkill. Six 10kN liquid or gas RCS derived, too small. Other than the 3/4 scale raptor prototype, has there been a hint of smaller methalox engine development?
Phil


Edit: asked & answered. Maybe 9 gas/gas
« Last Edit: 04/30/2020 08:18 pm by OTV Booster »
We are on the cusp of revolutionary access to space. One hallmark of a revolution is that there is a disjuncture through which projections do not work. The thread must be picked up anew and the tapestry of history woven with a fresh pattern.

Offline livingjw

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #51 on: 04/30/2020 08:01 pm »
Does anyone have a link for the conops for this lunar starship? Here are my questions:

1. How does it get to lunar orbit the first time? Does this always stay between the lunar surface and NRHO once in place?
2. How is it refueled in NRHO? How many launches from Earth does it take to get a tanker to NRHO with sufficient fuel?

Thanks

Starting fully fueled in LEO, a 110 t Starship can bring 10 t of payload to NRHO, then to the lunar surface, then back to NRHO without any refueling. It takes a total of 8 launches to fill it in LEO.

A refueling tanker takes the same number of launches. So every crew landing will require 8 Starship/Superheavy launches. But it's a fully reusable system throughout (except for the SLS used to launch the crew to NRHO).

How much could they land on the Moon if it was going to stay there permanently? A lot! Starter base makes sense to me. I'll shut up about it now. Sorry. I really want a nice Moon Base.

John

John, me too.  Me too.

I'd love to see them take a Starship to the moon and get it on to it's side.

Producing LOx on the moon will simplify logistics.

Oh h--- no! Works way better standing upright. Think of the commanding view of the surrounding with all the  little NASA rovers etc all around it. Remember if its permanent it can be built with a lot of extra radiation protection. Anyway that's my take.

John

Offline rakaydos

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #52 on: 04/30/2020 08:03 pm »
Interesting, special landing thrusters. Certainly useful on the moon.


Six raptors are way overkill. Six 10kN liquid or gas RCS derived, too small. Other than the 3/4 scale raptor prototype, has there been a hint of smaller methalox engine development?
Phil
MethaGox RCS in the "10 tonne" class for landing in heavy winds on the launch mount. Even though the launch mount landing is no longer on the critical path, engine development is a long pole, and it should already be in development.
Also, its 9 thrusters, not 6. You can kinda see the exaust from the third array on the other side.

Online butters

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #53 on: 04/30/2020 08:05 pm »
That Bill Gerstenmaier works fast. Less than three months into his new role with SpaceX, Starship has a vote of confidence from NASA for human exploration missions.

Offline OTV Booster

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #54 on: 04/30/2020 08:06 pm »
So if SS is 400t at landing time.
120t vehicle
150t payload
100t fuel for back to LLO
(120t+150t+100t)*moongravity=600kN
6 10t GOX/GCH4 thrusters
6*10t*earthgravity=588kN

Pretty close to even.
Don't know if 100t to LLO is correct?

EDIT: I just checked
3000m/s LLO velocity
isp of 370 gives 3 for Mass Fraction
360t/120t=3 for mass fraction
So 240t of fuel.
I think I did that right.

Probably there will be 9 thrusters - angle between visible groups of thrusters looks like 120 degree


A question for those who really are rocket scientists: are gas/gas thrusters throttle friendly? I would expect so but don’t really know.


Phil
We are on the cusp of revolutionary access to space. One hallmark of a revolution is that there is a disjuncture through which projections do not work. The thread must be picked up anew and the tapestry of history woven with a fresh pattern.

Offline rakaydos

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #55 on: 04/30/2020 08:09 pm »
So if SS is 400t at landing time.
120t vehicle
150t payload
100t fuel for back to LLO
(120t+150t+100t)*moongravity=600kN
6 10t GOX/GCH4 thrusters
6*10t*earthgravity=588kN

Pretty close to even.
Don't know if 100t to LLO is correct?

EDIT: I just checked
3000m/s LLO velocity
isp of 370 gives 3 for Mass Fraction
360t/120t=3 for mass fraction
So 240t of fuel.
I think I did that right.

Probably there will be 9 thrusters - angle between visible groups of thrusters looks like 120 degree


A question for those who really are rocket scientists: are gas/gas thrusters throttle friendly? I would expect so but don’t really know.


Phil
Pressure fed, it should just be a matter of opening the valves the correct amount. (IANARS)

Offline OTV Booster

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #56 on: 04/30/2020 08:10 pm »
i noticed this:

Several Starships serve distinct purposes in enabling human landing missions, each based on the common Starship design. A propellant storage Starship will park in low-Earth orbit to be supplied by a tanker Starship. The human-rated Starship will launch to the storage unit in Earth orbit, fuel up, and continue to lunar orbit.


Where did this come from?
We are on the cusp of revolutionary access to space. One hallmark of a revolution is that there is a disjuncture through which projections do not work. The thread must be picked up anew and the tapestry of history woven with a fresh pattern.

Offline ShSch

Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #57 on: 04/30/2020 08:17 pm »
Is this a downcomer from the LOX header tank that can be seen through the windows, right in the middle of the crew module?
Or just a shiny dancing pole for the promised entertainment on the way to the Moon? ;)

Offline 50_Caliber

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #58 on: 04/30/2020 08:17 pm »
I wonder if Bridenstine is going to give SpaceX a very long leash to design as they wish? The statement that he made to Arstechnica indicates this-

"SpaceX is really good at flying and testing—and failing and fixing," he said. "People are going to look at this and say, 'My goodness, we just saw Starship blow up again. Why are you giving them a contract?' The answer is because SpaceX is really good at iteratively testing and fixing. This is not new to them. They have a design here that, if successful, is going to be transformational. It’s going to drive down costs and it’s going to increase access, and it’s going to enable commercial activities that historically we’ve only dreamed about. I fully believe that Elon Musk is going to be successful. He is focused like a laser on these activities."

Article:
https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/04/nasa-awards-lunar-lander-contracts-to-blue-origin-dynetics-and-starship/

Offline LMT

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #59 on: 04/30/2020 08:28 pm »
Also looking forward to the first fan photoshop showing the three landers next to each other in scale. Might give some perspective to those already questioning Lunar Starship's capabilities.   :D

A very rough size comparison, simply from suit scaling.  The real Artemis details will be fascinating!
« Last Edit: 04/30/2020 08:30 pm by LMT »

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