Andor **** SPOILER Discussion ****

[sanman]

Actor Anton Lesser (Major Leo Partagaz) says Gilroy referenced Jean LeCarré

[sanman]

Interesting details about what might have been

[catdlr]

This doesn't sound good

https://youtube.com/watch?v=lMjPhN6brzg

Actor Anton Lesser (Major Leo Partagaz) says Gilroy referenced Jean LeCarré

https://youtube.com/watch?v=

Interesting details about what might have been

https://youtube.com/watch?v=-UaRCZ_hF34

8xY7cA_W7EU

Thanks for all three of those posts.

[catdlr]

"What is the Endgame?"  Luthen to Lonni Jung, Season 1 (fortelling of the Ghorman Massacre)

[Blackstar]

Then consider the 2 seasons we just saw to be an abridged version.

It cost $650 million for two 12-episode seasons, or around $27 million per episode. From what I've heard, that's about what big budget prestige sci-fi TV shows cost. I think the per-episode cost for Game of Thrones was around that, and I think I've heard that Strange New Worlds also costs a lot, although I have a hard time believing that SNW costs that much because they use the Volume rather than location for a lot of their planets.

Update: I just looked it up and I was way off. GoT cost about $15 million per episode by its last season, and SNW is estimated to be around $3.5-4.5 million per episode. So yeah, Andor cost a lot of money.


I'm not surprised that Disney doesn't want to continue spending that kind of money. Now if they get a bunch of Emmy nominations and wins, that would be good. But streaming is a dubious business.

[catdlr]

Then consider the 2 seasons we just saw to be an abridged version.

It cost $650 million for two 12-episode seasons, or around $27 million per episode. From what I've heard, that's about what big budget prestige sci-fi TV shows cost. I think the per-episode cost for Game of Thrones was around that, and I think I've heard that Strange New Worlds also costs a lot, although I have a hard time believing that SNW costs that much because they use the Volume rather than location for a lot of their planets.

Update: I just looked it up and I was way off. GoT cost about $15 million per episode by its last season, and SNW is estimated to be around $3.5-4.5 million per episode. So yeah, Andor cost a lot of money.


I'm not surprised that Disney doesn't want to continue spending that kind of money. Now if they get a bunch of Emmy nominations and wins, that would be good. But streaming is a dubious business.

I think Disney streaming is on its way out. Disney is trying to survive by recently adding more streaming outlets, such as ESPN and Hulu, to maintain its revenue. When you see this occurring (watering down content), then they are struggling.

News outlets reported layoffs at Disney's streaming divisions yesterday. Consequently, reductions in streaming have begun. Ahsoka Season II will likely be the last series to stream, and Mandalorian Season 4 has been canceled. No further streaming series is scheduled. Lucasfilm is currently hiring more staff in the animation departments. The assumption is that Disney is reverting to a post-2018 strategy focused solely on movies and animation. It's not just Star Wars that is affected, but Marvel as well.

[Blackstar]

I think Disney streaming is on its way out. Disney is trying to survive by recently adding more streaming outlets, such as ESPN and Hulu, to maintain its revenue. When you see this occurring (watering down content), then they are struggling.

I would not go that far. I think they'll continue. But streaming is currently evolving more like cable television, with commercials and different tiers. The free services like Tubi and Pluto already do well. It could be that eventually Disney+ becomes a premium add-on to one or more of these free services. And they could start selling their content to other streamers to bring in revenue that way. But I expected streaming to consolidate a lot faster than it has so far, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

The problem with stand-alone streamers is that they make as much money from an old program (paid for decades ago) as they do for an expensive new one. It's rare for people to sign up because they want to see some specific thing (although I'll admit that I signed on to Disney+ in anticipation of Andor, and I'll do that for Netflix for Stranger Things).

All in all, the business model for streaming was not viable as it was originally conceived, and it's going to have to evolve.

[Blackstar]

[sanman]

I think Disney streaming is on its way out. Disney is trying to survive by recently adding more streaming outlets, such as ESPN and Hulu, to maintain its revenue. When you see this occurring (watering down content), then they are struggling.

News outlets reported layoffs at Disney's streaming divisions yesterday. Consequently, reductions in streaming have begun. Ahsoka Season II will likely be the last series to stream, and Mandalorian Season 4 has been canceled. No further streaming series is scheduled. Lucasfilm is currently hiring more staff in the animation departments. The assumption is that Disney is reverting to a post-2018 strategy focused solely on movies and animation. It's not just Star Wars that is affected, but Marvel as well.

Using Game of Thrones as a convenient example, its impact on the entertainment landscape was far larger than some fleeting movie. There are economies of scale to be had from amortizing your expenses across a larger multi-episodic serial production. You also build up a loyal audience base, like with soap operas. Hollywood studios like making sequels for that reason, and a larger TV serial is sort of like a bunch of mini sequels. Streaming is also more economically efficient as a distribution platform, and also arguably benefits the wider marketplace and society by forcing better infrastructural upgrades for internet bandwidth. It offers far more convenience, and beats having to pay more money for overpriced theater snacks.

Just like with smallsat launchers, it's possible there's been an over-proliferation of too many, and this would lead to a winnowing of the market, to borrow Beck's phrase. However, the remaining survivors still left standing will be able to reap greater market share for themselves, and it seems obvious that from a viewer experience standpoint, the high-quality streaming TV series is undoubtedly the apex form of entertainment.

As the largest entertainment company by market capitalization, Disney should want to stay in the fight and reap the spoils of victory by showing staying power and outlasting rivals. Instead, they've only fallen prey to their own internal political instincts of scapegoating.  Bad creative decisions were made, causing money to be wasted on bad productions. Because streaming series have larger budgets, that meant the bad creative decisions resulted in more wastage, as compared to bad creative decision-making on movies. The solution is to vet ideas better and with a more critical eye, to avoid the bad creative decisions that can result from their corporatized process. The solution is not to retreat from the newer better platform that offers the viewer a better experience. The viewers will continue to stay loyal to their own interest, which is guided by having a better experience. If Disney throws away the opportunity, then somebody else will come forward to claim it.

(I guess we should be talking about this in the other thread about science fiction dying)

[Blackstar]

own internal political instincts of scapegoating.  Bad creative decisions were made, causing money to be wasted on bad productions. Because streaming series have larger budgets, that meant the bad creative decisions resulted in more wastage, as compared to bad creative decision-making on movies. The solution is to vet ideas better and with a more critical eye, to avoid the bad creative decisions that can result from their corporatized process. The solution is not to retreat from the newer better platform that offers the viewer a better experience. The viewers will continue to stay loyal to their own interest, which is guided by having a better experience. If Disney throws away the opportunity, then somebody else will come forward to claim it.

I think their problem, at least when it comes to streaming, is not that they made bad creative decisions, but they made bad corporate decisions that led to bad creative decisions. By that I mean that they decided that they needed a bunch of new shows (both Star Wars and Marvel)--which was a corporate money decision--and so they approved shows that were lower quality than they should have. That watered down their brand. Bob Iger essentially said that when he came back, although I wonder how many of those decisions had been set in motion before he left?

Game of Thrones is an interesting example because HBO already had a pretty good reputation before that, but GoT raised them to a high level. People talked about HBO as prestige television, and that may have gotten them subscribers just based upon their reputation. Disney has a different reputation, not so much "prestige" TV as family entertainment, cartoons, Pixar, and then certain brands like Marvel and Star Wars. Andor might be earning them some good reputation points that may pay off in other ways, but there's no good way to know that now.

[sanman]

I think their problem, at least when it comes to streaming, is not that they made bad creative decisions, but they made bad corporate decisions that led to bad creative decisions. By that I mean that they decided that they needed a bunch of new shows (both Star Wars and Marvel)--which was a corporate money decision--and so they approved shows that were lower quality than they should have. That watered down their brand. Bob Iger essentially said that when he came back, although I wonder how many of those decisions had been set in motion before he left?

Also, look how many series they approved. (Marvel: Eternals was over-hyped crap. Moon Knight? Who the hell asked for that?) Let's take a look at how many Star Wars series were (are still) approved for development:

Game of Thrones is an interesting example because HBO already had a pretty good reputation before that, but GoT raised them to a high level. People talked about HBO as prestige television, and that may have gotten them subscribers just based upon their reputation. Disney has a different reputation, not so much "prestige" TV as family entertainment, cartoons, Pixar, and then certain brands like Marvel and Star Wars. Andor might be earning them some good reputation points that may pay off in other ways, but there's no good way to know that now.

Andor is also not quite family entertainment (protagonists murder people, sometimes seemingly at random, attempted sex assault scene, lots of violence, tense emotional scenes, mature content, etc) whereas Disney has made its reputation on easy family entertainment choices. Andor is not quite as merch-friendly, like offering up Kenner action-figures, or Baby Yoda/Grogu plushies, etc. But then neither was Game of Thrones.

Bottom line is that if giants like Disney bails on streaming, then others who do stay in will be reaping the eyeballs and the buzz, relegating Disney into the background with family entertainment. Maybe that's where they deserve to be.

[sanman]

Stephen Colbert talks with Tony Gilroy and Diego Luna

[Blackstar]

Also, look how many series they approved. (Marvel: Eternals was over-hyped crap. Moon Knight? Who the hell asked for that?) Let's take a look at how many Star Wars series were (are still) approved for development:

That was my point--corporate Disney decided that now that they owned those brands, they needed a lot of content. And so they approved things that they should not have approved and it watered down their brands.

Now I think the overall problem when it comes to the creative decisions is that there is a limited talent pool. I think that a good creator could take even a mediocre subject and elevate it. Remember that Iron Man was a minor character, but they did a good job with that. When it comes to Marvel and Star Wars, they just stretched the talent pool too thin.

[Blackstar]

Andor is also not quite family entertainment (protagonists murder people, sometimes seemingly at random, attempted sex assault scene, lots of violence, tense emotional scenes, mature content, etc) whereas Disney has made its reputation on easy family entertainment choices. Andor is not quite as merch-friendly, like offering up Kenner action-figures, or Baby Yoda/Grogu plushies, etc. But then neither was Game of Thrones.

Bottom line is that if giants like Disney bails on streaming, then others who do stay in will be reaping the eyeballs and the buzz, relegating Disney into the background with family entertainment. Maybe that's where they deserve to be.

I was thinking about this after I posted yesterday and Disney's acquisition of Marvel and Star Wars was part of a strategy. Disney was/is known primarily as family entertainment. By getting those two franchises, they were aiming for more adult audiences. A 25-year old man was not going to subscribe to Disney+ for Pixar and animated shows and Disney's back catalog, but might do so for Marvel and Star Wars. With Andor, Disney was aiming for a more adult audience. They wanted people to think of Disney in a different way.

I don't think Disney is going to bail on streaming. There's no indication that they will. But streaming is evolving, and they may end up merging with other streaming services.

As for the future of Star Wars? That still has to be sorted out.

[Blackstar]

[Blackstar]

https://variety.com/2025/tv/news/andor-creator-disney-budget-streaming-dead-1236416780/

‘Andor’ Creator Says Disney Spent ‘$650 Million for 24 Episodes’ and ‘We Fought Hard’ for Money After Being Told in Season 2: ‘Streaming Is Dead. We Don’t Have the Money We Had Before’

 “Andor” creator Tony Gilroy dropped a bombshell during a recent Q&A at the ATX Television Festival (via IndieWire): The total budget for the 24-episode “Star Wars” series was $650 million, he claimed. Released over two seasons in 2022 and 2025, “Andor” ended its run last month to critical acclaim. The series was a prequel to the 2016 film “Rogue One” (which Gilroy co-wrote) and centered on Diego Luna’s Cassian Andor, a thief turned rebel spy.

“I mean, [for] Disney this is $650 million,” Gilroy said. “For 24 episodes, I never took a note. We said ‘Fuck the Empire’ in the first season, and they said, ‘Can you please not do that?’ … In Season 2, they said, ‘Streaming is dead, we don’t have the money we had before,’ so we fought hard about money, but they never cleaned anything up. That [freedom] comes with responsibilities.”

[catdlr]

https://variety.com/2025/tv/news/andor-creator-disney-budget-streaming-dead-1236416780/

Paywall, could you please have AI summarize this?

I assume what I predicted is coming true: that Lucasfilm's streaming for Disney is ending. I agree with you that Disney+ has its place and will continue to do so. What I meant before was just the Star Wars franchise going to Movies and Animation.

[catdlr]

https://variety.com/2025/tv/news/andor-creator-disney-budget-streaming-dead-1236416780/

Paywall, could you please have AI summarize this?

I assume what I predicted is coming true: that Lucasfilm's streaming for Disney is ending. I agree with you that Disney+ has its place and will continue to do so. What I meant before was just the Star Wars franchise going to Movies and Animation.

AI summary:
"Andor" Creator Reveals Disney's "Streaming is Dead" Comment Amidst Show's $650M Budget

"Andor" creator Tony Gilroy recently disclosed that Disney executives told him "streaming is dead" during negotiations for the show's second season. This revelation came despite Disney reportedly investing a massive $650 million in the 24-episode "Star Wars" prequel series.

Speaking at the ATX Television Festival, Gilroy shared that while he enjoyed significant creative freedom on the first season, discussions around the budget for season two were more challenging due to Disney's evolving perspective on the streaming market. He indicated that the sentiment from the company was that "we don't have the money we had before."

Despite this, the critically acclaimed series, lauded for its mature themes and high production quality (averaging roughly $27 million per episode), proceeded with its significant budget. Gilroy suggested that a project with the scale and creative liberty of "Andor" might be a rarity in the future given the shifting streaming landscape.

This insight into Disney's internal discussions hints at a potential recalibration of its streaming strategy, possibly involving a renewed focus on theatrical releases and more budget-conscious streaming productions as the company re-evaluates the economics of its direct-to-consumer services.

[Blackstar]

 The studio had no comment on Gilroy’s budget reveal when asked by Variety. Production on “Andor” Season 2 was notably paused amid the Hollywood strikes. A source familiar with the production said the guild strikes added approximately $20 million in shutdown costs to “Andor’s” budget and that episodes cost an estimated $20 million after tax incentives, similar to the reported episode budgets of “House of the Dragon” and “Severance.”

Gilroy pushed Disney and the “Star Wars” franchise’s boundaries with “Andor.” While he pulled back on having a character say “fuck the empire” in the first season finale, he ended up getting topics such as genocide and assault into the show’s second season without studio interference. Gilroy said at ATX that he purposefully started “Andor” with a scene set in a brothel as a litmus test for Disney.

“I worked on ‘Rogue [One]’ so I knew what the [permissible] levels of violence were, and actually the rules loosened up considerably,” Gilroy said. “Yeah, we can’t have skin, but I very consciously started the first scene in a brothel just to see what would happen and how far we could go. There’s sex. … It’s something that probably seemed at some point like it was going to be a big anxiety, and it really turned out to be a nothing-burger all the way through.”

 Gilroy previously told Variety that he “wrote a legal brief” to Disney when he was trying to get the studio to allow him to say “fuck the empire” in the show, explaining: “I wrote a memo on it and said, ‘Here’s why I think it’s economically prudent, and here’s why I think it’s good.’”

“Disney wouldn’t let us use it,” director Benjamin Caron added to Variety. “So we changed it to ‘fight the empire.’ I remember having a call with Tony Gilroy saying, ‘Are we gonna get away with this?’”

The “Andor” team couldn’t get Disney to let them say “fuck the empire,” but they did get away with discussing genocide in Season 2 (Gilroy said at ATX that being able to do so was “pretty flawless”). The second season also featured Adria Arjona’s Binx openly calling out an attempted sexual assault. Bix bluntly shouts at an officer: “He tried to rape me!”

“I remember reading that, and within the truth of that moment of the abuse of power, being really scared to go into that scene,” Arjona told Variety. “But there was also something — I’m going to curse — really frakking powerful about the fact that I get to showcase this in a galaxy far, far away. The fact that Tony gave it to Bix was a big honor — and it was right. She’s in the most vulnerable state she can possibly be in, and someone tries to take advantage of her. We’ve heard that story many times.”

Both seasons of “Andor” are now streaming on Disney+.

[Blackstar]

https://variety.com/2025/tv/news/andor-creator-disney-budget-streaming-dead-1236416780/

Paywall, could you please have AI summarize this?

I assume what I predicted is coming true: that Lucasfilm's streaming for Disney is ending. I agree with you that Disney+ has its place and will continue to do so. What I meant before was just the Star Wars franchise going to Movies and Animation.

Dunno why it paywalls for you. It doesn't for me and I don't have a subscription or anything. Anyway, I've posted the text.

There is nothing about Disney ending streaming. I think what Gilroy meant by "streaming is dead" is that Disney told him by season 2 that they no longer had the kind of money they had earlier. And that's not hard to understand--Disney was throwing a lot of money to build up Disney+, but at some point they had to start making money, not losing it.

So no, Disney+ is not going away. There's no indication of that.