Andor **** SPOILER Discussion ****

[sanman]

Rhydonium is fuel and it is toxic. The device is a kind of safe cracker. They were going to try and steal from one of eight different pipelines, and the operator had to be able to deal with each of them. That's a key point when Saw kills the spy--the guy asked which site they were going to hit, and that convinced Saw that the guy was a spy and they would be ambushed.

So, not to press the "science" on this too much, since we are dealing with a space fantasy story -- but how the heck is rhydonium supposed to aid in safe-cracking? You mentionted it's also used as a starship fuel. Is it rationalized as having some kind of quantum-mechanical properties that make it useful for computational purposes, and thus safe-cracking? Is it supposed to be analogous to Helium-3 or something? If that's how it's being used, then it seems like you wouldn't necessarily need a lot of it, and yet there they were, inhaling away.

[sanman]

I'd also like to ask -- what do people here feel were their favorite scenes/moments in Season 2 uptil now? And why were they your favorites? What made them stand out?

I've some opinions, but I'd really like to hear from others first.

[sanman]

The death of that assassin-girl didn't quite give me the emotional payoof I felt it should have, mainly because they don't show her actually dying. I know you'll tell me that deliberate style of doing it that way is supposed to artfully make her death stand out more.  I dunno, I think I'd have preferred to see a close-up of the girl's face going wide-eyed as we hear the blaster fire, just before she slumps over dead. Otherwise, without that "money shot" then there's a disconnection.

We'd heard assassin-girl grimly state to her lover that they were worth more to Luthen separate than together, and that's why they'd been assigned that way.
Was this paralleled by Luthen approaching Bix in Andor's absence, trying to send her away on an assignment?
Was he trying to do the same thing to Bix and Cassian that he'd done to those 2 ladies?

Luthen is shown as ruthless and amoral in many ways. Reminds me a bit of what we saw of Colonel Saul Tigh during the New Caprica arc of Ronald Moore's BSG reboot (ie. he was willing to go "on the side of the demons" bombing public gatherings and even going to the extent of killing his own wife Ellen to uphold organizational discipline)

Disney's Andor isn't quite as gritty or morally jaded as nBSG, and we didn't see Luthen engaging in any serious terroristic acts. We hadn't seen him casually kill someone, like Cassian Andor did near end of Season 1, which Bix later chastises him for.
When we see Cassian reacting so sharply and confronting Luthen over his overtures to Bix, then was this the tipping point which made Andor want to abandon the rebellion and flee it?
Was it the fear of losing Bix, or was it the loss of trust in Luthen, which motivated Andor more?

I heard there was some speculation that Luthen is some sort of Jedi, Sith, or Gray, or something like that.
There was a scene back in Season 1 where he visits Saw Guerrera and we see when he's frisked that he has on his person what looks to be a light-saber. Was that what it was, or was it just some artifact, since the guy is a dealer in cultural relics and art for his dayjob?
Is there a possibility that Luthen is just a rival to Palpatine, with no higher goal other than to knock down the Sith faction leader that isn't from his own faction?

We never see Luthen talking ideology or ideals. Does this mean he has none? Mon Mothma is able to talk about that stuff, as she does in her senate speech. Does Luthen particularly care what an alternative setup to the Empire should look like, or does he only want the current ruling regime under the Emperor gone, without caring or looking beyond that?

[ArbitraryConstant]

So, not to press the "science" on this too much, since we are dealing with a space fantasy story -- but how the heck is rhydonium supposed to aid in safe-cracking?

It's not a safe-cracking aid, the process of unauthorized extraction from a pipeline is presented as being akin to safe-cracking with the consequence of failure being detonating the material.

[ArbitraryConstant]

I know you'll tell me that deliberate style of doing it that way is supposed to artfully make her death stand out more.

I don't think it's for the artistry, I think it's because Disney wanted the show rated TV-14. Same reason in another episode with Andor and Bix getting physical it cuts to a shot of an elevator gliding through holes in the building, rather than an actual sex scene.

I heard there was some speculation that Luthen is some sort of Jedi, Sith, or Gray, or something like that.
There was a scene back in Season 1 where he visits Saw Guerrera and we see when he's frisked that he has on his person what looks to be a light-saber. Was that what it was, or was it just some artifact, since the guy is a dealer in cultural relics and art for his dayjob?
Is there a possibility that Luthen is just a rival to Palpatine, with no higher goal other than to knock down the Sith faction leader that isn't from his own faction?

Unless this is addressed in the final three episodes we may never know. One way I've tried to fill in the blanks is that he worked for the Old Republic's version of the ISB or something like the real world CIA, and has experience setting up factional conflicts to weaken adversaries. When he saw what was happening with Palpatine becoming Emperor, he dropped off the grid and decided to do the same thing. But again that's just me guessing. There's a very good chance we'll never know, I think.

We never see Luthen talking ideology or ideals. Does this mean he has none?

He had a whole speech on this in S1. He's using the tools of the enemy. He's made his mind a sunless place. I think whatever ideals he might have, he's had to set them aside to be what he sees as effective, and he's resigned to the fact that he probably won't live to be able to pick them up again.

[Blackstar]

So, not to press the "science" on this too much, since we are dealing with a space fantasy story -- but how the heck is rhydonium supposed to aid in safe-cracking? You mentionted it's also used as a starship fuel. Is it

I suggest that before posting again here multiple times, maybe you should rewatch the episodes, without looking at your phone during the rewatch. You seem to be missing a lot of things.

Andor does not spoon feed the audience. You have to watch carefully. But it rewards you if you do.

[sanman]

So, not to press the "science" on this too much, since we are dealing with a space fantasy story -- but how the heck is rhydonium supposed to aid in safe-cracking? You mentionted it's also used as a starship fuel. Is it

I suggest that before posting again here multiple times, maybe you should rewatch the episodes, without looking at your phone during the rewatch. You seem to be missing a lot of things.

I admit that the Saw Guerrera scenes didn't hold my attention much, because he always seemed to be on the fringes of the action, and not in the thick of it. Also, I find his craziness to be a little off-putting (don't get me wrong, Forest Whitaker the actor is good, but the character is weird and over-the-top). Unlike some of you, I didn't really watch these shows like Rebels, etc, and have only previously seen that character in the Rogue One movie, where he dies pretty quickly.

[sanman]

Unless this is addressed in the final three episodes we may never know. One way I've tried to fill in the blanks is that he worked for the Old Republic's version of the ISB or something like the real world CIA, and has experience setting up factional conflicts to weaken adversaries. When he saw what was happening with Palpatine becoming Emperor, he dropped off the grid and decided to do the same thing. But again that's just me guessing. There's a very good chance we'll never know, I think.

So the Empire has no "Deep State" - ie. no persistent bureaucracy with any enduring character - and is instead just a reflection of whoever happens to be in charge at the time (ie. Palpatine, whoever)? I guess that's how they can go from Old Republic with Jedi to post-Order66 Empire so easily.

In Babylon5, when it's revealed that the Vorlons and the Shadows are both just flip sides of the same coin, then that's a plot twist which totally changes our interpretation of what's going on. In the Gundam franchise, there are different storylines which variously favor the Earth or the space colony viewpoint.

Likewise, as per what was said in the other Andor thread, I wonder if there can be a version/interpretation of Star Wars which might similarly see Empire and rebellion as equal opposites (You'll call that outlandish and heresy, since nobody else blows up planets full of people but the Empire. But in some of the extended universe books, there was that Yuzhan Vong storyline where the Emperor was trying to protect the galaxy from extra-galactic invasion. It seemed a little contrived, but anyway it was there.)
In Attack of the Clones, we did get to see Jedi and stormtroopers working together on the same team, with stormtrooopers being de facto good guys and servants of the Republic.

He had a whole speech on this in S1. He's using the tools of the enemy. He's made his mind a sunless place. I think whatever ideals he might have, he's had to set them aside to be what he sees as effective, and he's resigned to the fact that he probably won't live to be able to pick them up again.

Yeah, I remember the speech, but that's his version/presentation of things. I wonder if there's anything to glean from beyond what he says, since he himself is also manipulative and guileful.

[catdlr]

So, not to press the "science" on this too much, since we are dealing with a space fantasy story -- but how the heck is rhydonium supposed to aid in safe-cracking? You mentionted it's also used as a starship fuel. Is it

I suggest that before posting again here multiple times, maybe you should rewatch the episodes, without looking at your phone during the rewatch. You seem to be missing a lot of things.

I admit that the Saw Guerrera scenes didn't hold my attention much, because he always seemed to be on the fringes of the action, and not in the thick of it. Also, I find his craziness to be a little off-putting (don't get me wrong, Forest Whitaker the actor is good, but the character is weird and over-the-top). Unlike some of you, I didn't really watch these shows like Rebels, etc, and have only previously seen that character in the Rogue One movie, where he dies pretty quickly.

Sanman,
Before you comment any more, perhaps get invested in watching his (any other's) character's background by watching the Clone Wars, Bad Batch, and Rebels, where Saw has appeared, and why his life was altered by his sister, allowing some insight into his remark in Andor about her and his eventual outcome. You'll finally understand why his last action was to smell his sister before she died.

Providing commentary without adequately observing and understanding the various Star Wars characters and their respective story arcs precludes one from making any credible contributions to this discussion thread.

Tony

[sanman]

Sanman,
Before you comment any more, perhaps get invested in watching his (any other's) character's background by watching the Clone Wars, Bad Batch, and Rebels, where Saw has appeared, and why his life was altered by his sister, allowing some insight into his remark in Andor about her and his eventual outcome. You'll finally understand why his last action was to smell his sister before she died.

Providing commentary without adequately observing and understanding the various Star Wars characters and their respective story arcs precludes one from making any credible contributions to this discussion thread.

Tony

Hmm, well apart from Saw Guerrera, which other characters in Andor get filled out by those other series you just mentioned which I admittedly didn't watch? As far as I can make out, he seems to be the only one who has roots in some other show(s).

PS: I want to apologize if I offended fans of the Saw Guerrera character with my off-the-cuff characterizations. Yeah, I admit I didn't get into the animated Star Wars shows, of which there were multiple.

[catdlr]

Sanman,
Before you comment any more, perhaps get invested in watching his (any other's) character's background by watching the Clone Wars, Bad Batch, and Rebels, where Saw has appeared, and why his life was altered by his sister, allowing some insight into his remark in Andor about her and his eventual outcome. You'll finally understand why his last action was to smell his sister before she died.

Providing commentary without adequately observing and understanding the various Star Wars characters and their respective story arcs precludes one from making any credible contributions to this discussion thread.

Tony

Hmm, well apart from Saw Guerrera, which other characters in Andor get filled out by those other series you just mentioned which I admittedly didn't watch? As far as I can make out, he seems to be the only one who has roots in some other show(s).

PS: I want to apologize if I offended fans of the Saw Guerrera character with my off-the-cuff characterizations. Yeah, I admit I didn't get into the animated Star Wars shows, of which there were multiple.

Wilhuff Tarkin:  his background, rise in the ranks, and point of view (Clone Wars, Bad Batch, and Rebels).

Director Orson Krennic:   appeared in the last season of The Bad Batch, with not much interaction, but more like a cameo.

Mon Mothma: Pre-Andor (Ep3, Clone Wars),
                     Post Andor - upcoming second speech reference to Gorman (Rebels season 4 - secret cargo)

Erskin Semaj - post Andor (Rebels season 4 - secret cargo)

Sheev Palpatine (Episodes 1, 2, 3), Genndy Tartakovsky - Clone Wars,  George Lucas - The Clone Wars, Bad Batch, Rebels

Wullf Yularen - Director of ISB - (Character stated in the initial Clone Wars movie and assigned as Anakin Skywalker's Grand Republic Navy Venator's Fleet Rear Admiral during the entire Clone Wars series).  You can gain sufficient character background as he gets older throughout that series. FYI: He appears old in the last season of the Clone Wars to match his appearance in Andor.

If I come up with any more, I'll let you know. 

[sanman]

Just for those who, like me, didn't have much backstory on Saw Guerrera and his connection with Rhydonium, here's a bit of a backgrounder that I found:

[Blackstar]

Before you comment any more, perhaps get invested in watching his (any other's) character's background by watching the Clone Wars, Bad Batch, and Rebels, where Saw has appeared, and why his life was altered by his sister, allowing some insight into his remark in Andor about her and his eventual outcome. You'll finally understand why his last action was to smell his sister before she died.

Providing commentary without adequately observing and understanding the various Star Wars characters and their respective story arcs precludes one from making any credible contributions to this discussion thread.

I don't think it's necessary to watch all those other shows. It's certainly not necessary to watch them in order to enjoy Andor. There's so much that is on the screen. You can understand characters like Saw based upon what is shown--he's paranoid, he is disagreeable, he's crazy (by his own admission). You can compare him to the other people fighting the Empire.

Andor, however, requires a certain level of thinking that many of the other shows do not. It doesn't tell you everything, it tells you a bit and you have to think about the characters in order to fill in the blanks. If you think about all the Bix/Cassian interactions this season, you can see their story arc. You can see how she was broken and then regained her strength by killing her torturer. And you can also see how she has a different kind of resolve than Cassian does. She left him because, as she said, she did not want to be the reason he stopped fighting. The show doesn't explain everything and you have to watch it closely to connect the characters.

[catdlr]

Before you comment any more, perhaps get invested in watching his (any other's) character's background by watching the Clone Wars, Bad Batch, and Rebels, where Saw has appeared, and why his life was altered by his sister, allowing some insight into his remark in Andor about her and his eventual outcome. You'll finally understand why his last action was to smell his sister before she died.

Providing commentary without adequately observing and understanding the various Star Wars characters and their respective story arcs precludes one from making any credible contributions to this discussion thread.

I don't think it's necessary to watch all those other shows. It's certainly not necessary to watch them in order to enjoy Andor. There's so much that is on the screen. You can understand characters like Saw based upon what is shown--he's paranoid, he is disagreeable, he's crazy (by his own admission). You can compare him to the other people fighting the Empire.

Andor, however, requires a certain level of thinking that many of the other shows do not. It doesn't tell you everything, it tells you a bit and you have to think about the characters in order to fill in the blanks. If you think about all the Bix/Cassian interactions this season, you can see their story arc. You can see how she was broken and then regained her strength by killing her torturer. And you can also see how she has a different kind of resolve than Cassian does. She left him because, as she said, she did not want to be the reason he stopped fighting. The show doesn't explain everything and you have to watch it closely to connect the characters.

Andor does this with its characters so much better than how the characters were introduced for Ahsoka. This is a great testament to what the writers have done with Andor. 

[Blackstar]

Andor does this with its characters so much better than how the characters were introduced for Ahsoka. This is a great testament to what the writers have done with Andor. 

Totally agree. I just watched Ashoka for the first time a couple of weeks ago and was constantly confused. I didn't know who they were referring to or what the stakes were a lot of the time. They would mention a character and you were supposed to know their back story, and I didn't even know who they were talking about. I watched all the way through, but I was often more confused than engaged in the story.

[catdlr]

Andor does this with its characters so much better than how the characters were introduced for Ahsoka. This is a great testament to what the writers have done with Andor. 

Totally agree. I just watched Ashoka for the first time a couple of weeks ago and was constantly confused. I didn't know who they were referring to or what the stakes were a lot of the time. They would mention a character and you were supposed to know their back story, and I didn't even know who they were talking about. I watched all the way through, but I was often more confused than engaged in the story.

Ahsoka, for longstanding fans of Rebels and The Clone Wars, represents a continuation of Rebels (potentially rebranded as season 5). Lucasfilm endeavored to promote the idea that one does not need to comprehend or be familiar with the characters' backgrounds thoroughly; however, for those who lack familiarity, as your comment indicates, the writers did not succeed in this endeavor and consequently suffered as a result.

The Mandalorian series succeeded because most characters are newly developed and, for the most part, require no background stories to keep pace, except for Boba Fett, Fennec Shand, and Bo-Katan's characters.

[Blackstar]

Ahsoka, for longstanding fans of Rebels and The Clone Wars, represents a continuation of Rebels (potentially rebranded as season 5). Lucasfilm endeavored to promote the idea that one does not need to comprehend or be familiar with the characters' backgrounds thoroughly; however, for those who lack familiarity, as your comment indicates, the writers did not succeed in this endeavor and consequently suffered as a result.

I watched a bit of Rebels and enjoyed it, but did not finish the series. That was also years ago. One of the frustrating aspects of Ahsoka was that something would happen and my confusion was compounded with knowing that this probably was explained at some point in the previous series. Instead of just enjoying what was in front of me, I was annoyed that I needed to do homework to understand it.

[catdlr]

Ahsoka, for longstanding fans of Rebels and The Clone Wars, represents a continuation of Rebels (potentially rebranded as season 5). Lucasfilm endeavored to promote the idea that one does not need to comprehend or be familiar with the characters' backgrounds thoroughly; however, for those who lack familiarity, as your comment indicates, the writers did not succeed in this endeavor and consequently suffered as a result.

I watched a bit of Rebels and enjoyed it, but did not finish the series. That was also years ago. One of the frustrating aspects of Ahsoka was that something would happen and my confusion was compounded with knowing that this probably was explained at some point in the previous series. Instead of just enjoying what was in front of me, I was annoyed that I needed to do homework to understand it.

Consider the reaction of fans when Vader discloses that he is the father of Luke. What? What have I overlooked? Additionally, what secret plans regarding the Death Star are referenced in the opening crawl of "A New Hope"? George's writing, much like that in "Andor", was not designed to perplex us and did not necessitate prior knowledge of those backstories. However, similar to the Prequel trilogy and now "Andor", our inquiries are finally being addressed.  Ahsoka may be perceived as a means for new fans to revisit and explore the Clone Wars and Rebels series, thereby discovering and appreciating the newly introduced characters backstories?

[sanman]

Yeah, I  think I saw one episode of Ahsoka and didn't watch anything further because I didn't like it. She's a total invention of Dave Filoni, and that series on her was from him. He's a good writer, but has got a recognizably different style from Jon Favreau, which shows in some of the ways you've mentioned. You won't like me saying this, but I feel him shoe-horning her into live-action Mandalorian amounted to a self-insertion. She was his Mary Sue. By making her canon, Filoni is basically canonizing himself.

[Blackstar]

Consider the reaction of fans when Vader discloses that he is the father of Luke. What? What have I overlooked?

I don't think that comparison works, because at that time, there was only one other movie, and I guarantee you that 99% of the people who went to see Empire had already seen Star Wars. Ahsoka required viewers to do homework, and a lot of it. I found that aggravating.