EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 7

[Rodal]

Able to get TE013 at 2.44889Ghz using Shawyer's flare-shape geometry, but with different dimensions. Units are in cm. It's about twice the size as the c-band unit shown on BBC.

Please observe that mode shape TE013 is very different from mode shape TE311, which -from my memory- (please correct me if I'm wrong) you emphasized in your experimental setup. 

Have you compared the Q's for these mode shapes ?

It will be interesting to see your experimental results for force and Q.

[Rodal]

The pictures didn't show Shawyer surreptitiously pushing an EMdrive which was purported to be working, it showed him obviously and deliberately pushing the thing up the air-track. Absolutely no claim at all was made that that clip showed the device working. Aside from anything else, to do so would have made liars out most of the program contributors.

What we saw was just some footage concocted to liven up shots of soundbites from an old guy. Like, we all gained some understanding by watching the physicist play boules in the desert, right?

What we saw neither confirms nor denies anything.

I think it's a bit fanciful to mull over what an NDA would/would not allow him to show: this is taken to be defense secrecy not SEC rules. To my knowledge no-one has as yet discussed any financial investors in SPR.

It's surprising at first that he would be allowed to participate at all if his later work is not allowed to be shown. However, given the earlier newsflow and the fact that the program was going ahead anyway, it may make some sense by way of damage limitation.

R.

Actually all the shareholders information is here

https://companycheck.co.uk/company/04097991/SATELLITE-PROPULSION-RESEARCH-LIMITED/group-structure

Also found this document,

http://ind-tech.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Investment-Memorandum-final.pdf


More interestingly there seem to be no one helping Sawyer develop this engine in the lab. He a old bloke, I don't think it reasonable for him to still be working alone on this project if he planning on scaling it up any time soon.

That's the third clock ticking, tick tack tick tack, arguing for showing the device working so that he can either sell working units, scale up or sell the company (intellectual property).

Already discussed the other two clocks:

1) the clock of financial value of his patents: it decreases exponentially with time.  It behooves the patent holder to show a working device as soon as possible to extract financial value out of the patents (that demanded time and money to get patented in the first place)

2) the clock of a leveraged small entrepreneural company: such a small company has to borrow money that has to be repaid back with interest as well as dilution of the company shares if also stock is given to entities providing financial capital.  It behooves the owner or CEO of a small entrepreneural company to show a working device as soon as possible to sell working units or to sell the company as soon as possible before further dilution of shares and running out of money.

The third clock you are referring to:



3) Our human lifetime clock.  Unfortunately none of us humans have an infinite life.  Our life is limited to an unknown age.  Our human life clock keeps on ticking.  The older we get the more that it behooves the aging owner or CEO of a small entrepreneural company (a company of one ? or few ?) to show a working device as soon as possible to sell working units or to sell the company.  Is there somebody (family member or company associated) prepared to take over and continue Shawyer's efforts?

Here of course, one presumes that the reason for the enterprise was always to have a working unit and commercialize such invention, as for example so well done by inventors like Edison, Ford, Steve Jobs, etc.

All of this discussion motivated by the recent, much anticipated, BBC program featuring Shawyer.

[A_M_Swallow]

{snip}

As to the documentary, the thing that disappointed me the most was that there wasn't more information on project Greenglow, a project that seem to ran for at least a decade and apparently all it did was Sawyer research and they didn't even have the funds to recreate the Russians research, seem strange to me that BAE Systems would let a project run for that long with nothing to show for it.

You are assuming the Project Greenglow was a full time job rather than say a once a week meeting in the back room of the sports & social club.

[Monomorphic]

Please observe that mode shape TE013 is very different from mode shape TE311, which -from my memory- (please correct me if I'm wrong) you emphasized in your experimental setup. 

You are correct. The copper frustum I have fabricated already is designed for TE311. I was able to find TE311 in the flare-geometry as well at around 2.5Ghz. I'm seriously considering fabricating a flare-geometry emdrive deigned for TE013 at 2.45Ghz as well. The flare-shape is much easier to fabricate than the frustum, and it will only take a little extra copper than what I already have. I would probably use thicker copper for the end-plates. 

[Rodal]

Please observe that mode shape TE013 is very different from mode shape TE311, which -from my memory- (please correct me if I'm wrong) you emphasized in your experimental setup. 

You are correct. The copper frustum I have fabricated already is designed for TE311. I was able to find TE311 in the flare-geometry as well at around 2.5Ghz. I'm seriously considering fabricating a flare-geometry emdrive deigned for TE013 at 2.45Ghz as well. The flare-shape is much easier to fabricate than the frustum, and it will only take a little extra copper than what I already have. I would probably use thicker copper for the end-plates.

Thanks 

Comments on calculated Q would be appreciated when you have a chance.  I expect that the Q for TE013 should be higher than for TE311.

As I understand the choice between mode shapes TE013 and TE311 (TE=transverse electric; subscripts TE_mnp number of half-wave patterns in m=circumferential, n=radial and p=longitudinal directions):

1) TE013: higher Q (Q is the most important parameter in Shawyer's, McCulloch's and Notsosureofit's equations).  Also TE013 has the Energy Density concentrated near the small end (which is important for White's QV theory).

2) TE311: as I understand (please correct me if I'm wrong) you would like to test this mode shape because of the electromagnetic field being closer to the metal, as in a Whispering Gallery Mode (albeit the fact that is is a sextapole mode: 2*m=2*3=6 poles).  But that fact should result in a lower Q as well.  This mode shape also has p=1 which results in the Energy Density being closer to the big end (compared to p=3 in TE013).  p=1 may result in a self-acceleration towards the big end instead of the small end ? (As per Minotti's theory and perhaps White's QV theory - not sure-).

Therefore it would be interesting to see the force (magnitude and direction) in your experiment. 

[FattyLumpkin]

Where SpaceX and Elon Musk are concerned (a multi-billion dollar business), He/they do not file patents on a good deal of their tech. Hence, trade secret(s). How and to what extent the individuals that are privy to said secrets are bound is anyone's guess, but I'd suggest that disclosure of any of the aforementioned "tech" would result AT MINIMUM in Federal incarceration, since the security associated with the big US rocketry business falls within the realm of Nation Security. So Elon gets to have his cake and eat it too.(But the Feds have their hooks in him)
Enter Emdrive and I'd suggest the same "controls" might be placed on it (or at least attempted to be.)
When queried about positive Emdrive results, the few who had achieved this although not being able to provide an acceptable theory for their peers, have indicated that their "gut" is telling them that there is an effect there that they themselves cannot account for. Those who capture the Emdrive effect in a reproducible way know well that it also will be a multi-billion dollar affair. In a way I'm glad for the fact that there is (a least for now) no peer reviewed theory with a concomitant working prototype. I'd assert this leaves DIYs with the freedom of the Wright brothers. Cheers and best of science and results to you here at NSF!   F.L.

[Chrochne]

Where SpaceX and Elon Musk are concerned (a multi-billion dollar business), He/they do not file patents on a good deal of their tech. Hence, trade secret(s). How and to what extent the individuals that are privy to said secrets are bound is anyone's guess, but I'd suggest that disclosure of any of the aforementioned "tech" would result AT MINIMUM in Federal incarceration, since the security associated with the big US rocketry business falls within the realm of Nation Security. So Elon gets to have his cake and eat it too.(But the Feds have their hooks in him)
Enter Emdrive and I'd suggest the same "controls" might be placed on it (or at least attempted to be.)
When queried about positive Emdrive results, the few who had achieved this although not being able to provide an acceptable theory for their peers, have indicated that their "gut" is telling them that there is an effect there that they themselves cannot account for. Those who capture the Emdrive effect in a reproducible way know well that it also will be a multi-billion dollar affair. In a way I'm glad for the fact that there is (a least for now) no peer reviewed theory with a concomitant working prototype. I'd assert this leaves DIYs with the freedom of the Wright brothers. Cheers and best of science and results to you here at NSF!   F.L.

Not to mention increasing rumors of testing at JPL. Pepole will always speculate .

[knowles2]

You are assuming the Project Greenglow was a full time job rather than say a once a week meeting in the back room of the sports & social club.

May be I think that because the documentary made it sound like it was more than that.

[TheTraveller]

I believe what we saw was the storage area for old EmDrive tech. No where did we see any cryo units or cryo reseach area.

In one shot you can see the Demonstrator EmDrive behind the air track.

From what Roger has told me, the air track was old tech & probably is why it was in the storage shed as was the fan that was seen.

My opinion is nothing that was shown is being used in current development & the area shown is used only for storage. I also believe Roger made it clear the 2008 pre Flight Thruster EmDrive unit shown was not powered (no power applied to the Rf amp) & that any motion along the air track was due to his actions. So he made no effort to desceive.

[birchoff]

not sure if anyone saw this.

https://hackaday.io/project/5596-em-drive/log/33550-directional-force-measured

[Monomorphic]

No where did we see any cryo units or cryo reseach area.

I spied the cryo unit from the superconducting feasibility study - or at last an identical one.

[Monomorphic]

Also, right beside... that is the demonstration engine.

[Rodal]

Also, right beside... that is the demonstration engine.

Great detective work !

I find it strange that Shawyer showed a big video of the demonstration engine in the BBC program, instead of showing the real thing rotating around.

[ThinkerX]

not sure if anyone saw this.

https://hackaday.io/project/5596-em-drive/log/33550-directional-force-measured

I found the graph frustrating and uninformative. 

More and more, I am coming to agree with Rodal that 'bigger is better' when it comes to EM Drive units, and that measurement issues with the 'tiny' designs will produce ambiguous results at best.

Might be interesting if some DIY type could somehow scrounge the resources to build a really large frustum - something, say, with a big end diameter of a couple meters.

[Bob Woods]

Geez, i miss a few days reading and everything goes manic. Serves me for trying to lead a normal life.

Exciting stuff no matter what the outcome. Especially Dr. Rodal's nondisclosure disclosure of doing something that is probably nothing but may be something. Add to that the BBC, and everyone all a-twitter, and Monomorphic using and air beam that now we see Shawyer also used.

Enough to make an old fart like me lose faith in lurking.

At least I can still cook a hot dog in my microwave. Unless it hits light speed... 

[RotoSequence]

Geez, i miss a few days reading and everything goes manic. Serves me for trying to lead a normal life.

Exciting stuff no matter what the outcome. Especially Dr. Rodal's nondisclosure disclosure of doing something that is probably nothing but may be something.

It isn't an EM Drive build, so any discussion of it belongs in another thread, if anywhere at all.

[mwvp]

...More and more, I am coming to agree with Rodal that 'bigger is better' when it comes to EM Drive units, and that measurement issues with the 'tiny' designs will produce ambiguous results at best.

Might be interesting if some DIY type could somehow scrounge the resources to build a really large frustum - something, say, with a big end diameter of a couple meters.

Yes, higher-Q for more radiation pressure from higher energy density and lower surface losses. The higher the Q, the lower the group velocity and the greater the force from greater sensitivity to acceleration induced doppler spreading.

Having a few hundred-watt VHF/UHF tubes on hand, off the cuff, I considered a big frustrum. Say 100MHz, Q 100k. The thin sheet metal would probably have acoustic resonances near group-velocity, resulting in all kinds of radiation-pressure powered acoustic vibrations to detune and reduce propulsive effects.

[Vix]

Didn't manage to watch the Greenglow documentary yesterday; today I searched and it's gone (can't watch it on BBC since I am not in UK ) . Any other link where it could be found?
Looking at the Roger's face while showing EM drive, looks like he's saying "my baby is alive, but I dare not tell. Please don't loose your faith in it".
I started to believe that EmDrive has become part of black projects, it shows us the idea, the willingness, but it is oficially dead. Something we dreamed of, wish we could do it, tried it, but "it just doesnt't work", while in some underground lab somebody is hovering and having fun on top of this type of device...
Perhaps the Greenglow documentary was meant to show to the common Joe that it could be done, but now it is not (yet) the right moment to show it working..
Anyway I  probably have a better idea after I watch the documentary...
Meanwhile, I still have faith and believe it can work - I prefer to look up, at our place among the stars, if I look down, I see only dust...

[CW]

Another observation. Shawyer has a very robust circular rotating winch system installed in the ceiling of his laboratory. It appears aligned so he can lower emdrives, some rather large obviously, onto the heavily reinforced dual air-track system.



Roger is experimenting with much larger systems than what is shown!

How sure are you that that is a winch system? It looks like something else to me.   Why would a winch have a guard around its periphery ?

(Mod edit - Chris and NSF staff have a much higher standard of posting than most public forums which have minimal standards on ridicule. Why? Because professionals and serious readers have far less to wade through to get useful information - Dave)

[Monomorphic]

That's one heck of a ceiling fan if it is that! Are those counter-rotating blades? Looks like the thing is made of helicopter parts. I saw a winch originally because my father had a circular winch system built into his workshop. I don't have a picture of it, but it kind of looks like this: