SpaceX Dragon XL

[yg1968]

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1884700023063024047

NASA's Mark Wiese says at a SpaceCom panel that there have been significant changes to the SpaceX Dragon XL design for Gateway logistics. Defers to SpaceX to disclose details on those changes as NASA finishes up contract modifications.

Hopefully, Dragon XL now looks a lot like Starship.

That is wishful thinking, is all I can say.

Thanks for the information. You are right that I was hoping that it would be. The RFI from 2022 made it seem like NASA was open to replacing Dragon XL with something like Starship:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=48353.msg2357503#msg2357503

[StraumliBlight]

This SpaceX role might indicate that Dragon XL is being replaced with Starship.

MISSION MANAGER, STARSHIP CREW AND CARGO PROGRAMS

SpaceX is looking for exemplary individuals capable of supporting our portfolio of Starship Crew and Cargo commercial and government programs. This includes leading programmatic development and execution of the Human Landing System (HLS) as part of NASA’s Artemis program to return humans and cargo to lunar orbit and the Moon’s surface, as well as multiple commercial and government crew and cargo missions to the Moon and Mars.

[sstli2]

This SpaceX role might indicate that Dragon XL is being replaced with Starship.

MISSION MANAGER, STARSHIP CREW AND CARGO PROGRAMS

SpaceX is looking for exemplary individuals capable of supporting our portfolio of Starship Crew and Cargo commercial and government programs. This includes leading programmatic development and execution of the Human Landing System (HLS) as part of NASA’s Artemis program to return humans and cargo to lunar orbit and the Moon’s surface, as well as multiple commercial and government crew and cargo missions to the Moon and Mars.

Perhaps, but not necessarily, as Starship was already under a contract for delivery of a rover to the surface, irrespective of Dragon XL / Gateway obligations.

[woods170]

This SpaceX role might indicate that Dragon XL is being replaced with Starship.

MISSION MANAGER, STARSHIP CREW AND CARGO PROGRAMS

SpaceX is looking for exemplary individuals capable of supporting our portfolio of Starship Crew and Cargo commercial and government programs. This includes leading programmatic development and execution of the Human Landing System (HLS) as part of NASA’s Artemis program to return humans and cargo to lunar orbit and the Moon’s surface, as well as multiple commercial and government crew and cargo missions to the Moon and Mars.

You're reading too much into this. SpaceX already was under contract to deliver cargo to the lunar surface, for a mission that first goes to the Lunar Gateway to pick up the Orion crew. You can safely bet a crate of beer that NASA would use such an opportunity to stow cargo for Lunar Gateway on the HLS Starship.
But, here's the thing: bringing up additional cargo for Lunar Gateway on HLS Starship, does not remove the requirement to get cargo to Lunar Gateway on "regular" cargo flights. Which is why Dragon XL still exists.

[DanClemmensen]

This SpaceX role might indicate that Dragon XL is being replaced with Starship.

MISSION MANAGER, STARSHIP CREW AND CARGO PROGRAMS

SpaceX is looking for exemplary individuals capable of supporting our portfolio of Starship Crew and Cargo commercial and government programs. This includes leading programmatic development and execution of the Human Landing System (HLS) as part of NASA’s Artemis program to return humans and cargo to lunar orbit and the Moon’s surface, as well as multiple commercial and government crew and cargo missions to the Moon and Mars.

You're reading too much into this. SpaceX already was under contract to deliver cargo to the lunar surface, for a mission that first goes to the Lunar Gateway to pick up the Orion crew. You can safely bet a crate of beer that NASA would use such an opportunity to stow cargo for Lunar Gateway on the HLS Starship.
But, here's the thing: bringing up additional cargo for Lunar Gateway on HLS Starship, does not remove the requirement to get cargo to Lunar Gateway on "regular" cargo flights. Which is why Dragon XL still exists.

Why? Can Dragon XL transfer any cargo autonomously? If not, then you need crew present to transfer the cargo. They can just as easily transfer it from the HLS as from a Dragon XL. The GLS concepts came from a time when an HLS was a tiny and highly mass-constrained system.

What the HLS cannot do is transfer propellants and Xenon. Can Dragon XL do this? I thought that was a different system.

[catdlr]

Cross Post of a short status from Phillip Sloss on Dragon XL

 https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=58212.msg2661849#msg2661849

Timestamp
16:16 Dragon XL and Starship lunar ascent demo notes

[woods170]

This SpaceX role might indicate that Dragon XL is being replaced with Starship.

MISSION MANAGER, STARSHIP CREW AND CARGO PROGRAMS

SpaceX is looking for exemplary individuals capable of supporting our portfolio of Starship Crew and Cargo commercial and government programs. This includes leading programmatic development and execution of the Human Landing System (HLS) as part of NASA’s Artemis program to return humans and cargo to lunar orbit and the Moon’s surface, as well as multiple commercial and government crew and cargo missions to the Moon and Mars.

You're reading too much into this. SpaceX already was under contract to deliver cargo to the lunar surface, for a mission that first goes to the Lunar Gateway to pick up the Orion crew. You can safely bet a crate of beer that NASA would use such an opportunity to stow cargo for Lunar Gateway on the HLS Starship.
But, here's the thing: bringing up additional cargo for Lunar Gateway on HLS Starship, does not remove the requirement to get cargo to Lunar Gateway on "regular" cargo flights. Which is why Dragon XL still exists.

Why? Can Dragon XL transfer any cargo autonomously? If not, then you need crew present to transfer the cargo. They can just as easily transfer it from the HLS as from a Dragon XL. The GLS concepts came from a time when an HLS was a tiny and highly mass-constrained system.

What the HLS cannot do is transfer propellants and Xenon. Can Dragon XL do this? I thought that was a different system.

You make the mistake of assuming that HLS landers have enough excess cargo capacity, including Gateway-specific cargo facilities, to satisfy Lunar Gateway's entire cargo needs and requirements. Such an assumption is incorrect.

One fine example is this: there is a requirement for Lunar Gateway externally mounted cargo to be delivered to the Lunar Gateway, in such a manner that the Canadarm3 can reach, grab and remove that cargo from the cargo vehicle, while the arm is mounted on the Lunar Gateway structure.
That requirement by definition rules out the Starship HLS vehicle for cargo that is to be externally mounted on Lunar Gateway. The Canadarm3 design is not nearly long enough to reach all the way down the "nose" of the Starship HLS vehicle, to its cargo hold.
This particular problem does not exist for Dragon XL. That vehicle is so much smaller than Starship HLS, that Canadarm3 can easily reach, grab and remove cargo units from Dragon XL, for mounting on the exterior of Lunar Gateway.

[DanClemmensen]

This SpaceX role might indicate that Dragon XL is being replaced with Starship.

MISSION MANAGER, STARSHIP CREW AND CARGO PROGRAMS

SpaceX is looking for exemplary individuals capable of supporting our portfolio of Starship Crew and Cargo commercial and government programs. This includes leading programmatic development and execution of the Human Landing System (HLS) as part of NASA’s Artemis program to return humans and cargo to lunar orbit and the Moon’s surface, as well as multiple commercial and government crew and cargo missions to the Moon and Mars.

You're reading too much into this. SpaceX already was under contract to deliver cargo to the lunar surface, for a mission that first goes to the Lunar Gateway to pick up the Orion crew. You can safely bet a crate of beer that NASA would use such an opportunity to stow cargo for Lunar Gateway on the HLS Starship.
But, here's the thing: bringing up additional cargo for Lunar Gateway on HLS Starship, does not remove the requirement to get cargo to Lunar Gateway on "regular" cargo flights. Which is why Dragon XL still exists.

Why? Can Dragon XL transfer any cargo autonomously? If not, then you need crew present to transfer the cargo. They can just as easily transfer it from the HLS as from a Dragon XL. The GLS concepts came from a time when an HLS was a tiny and highly mass-constrained system.

What the HLS cannot do is transfer propellants and Xenon. Can Dragon XL do this? I thought that was a different system.

You make the mistake of assuming that HLS landers have enough excess cargo capacity, including Gateway-specific cargo facilities, to satisfy Lunar Gateway's entire cargo needs and requirements. Such an assumption is incorrect.

One fine example is this: there is a requirement for Lunar Gateway externally mounted cargo to be delivered to the Lunar Gateway, in such a manner that the Canadarm3 can reach, grab and remove that cargo from the cargo vehicle, while the arm is mounted on the Lunar Gateway structure.
That requirement by definition rules out the Starship HLS vehicle for cargo that is to be externally mounted on Lunar Gateway. The Canadarm3 design is not nearly long enough to reach all the way down the "nose" of the Starship HLS vehicle, to its cargo hold.
This particular problem does not exist for Dragon XL. That vehicle is so much smaller than Starship HLS, that Canadarm3 can easily reach, grab and remove cargo units from Dragon XL, for mounting on the exterior of Lunar Gateway.

This is what you call an overly-specific requirement. To provide large external cargo, carry an additional Canadarm in the HLS cargo bay. Get a contract modification to allow this. If someone insists on a strict interpretation of the existing requirement, the point out that this extra Canadarm is part of the GLS, not part of gateway, so the cargo is in fact easily reachable by the Gateway Canadarm after the GLS prepositions it.