NASA - MAVEN - updates and discussion

[deadman1204]

The value of a smallsat relay might not be the bandwitdth, but ground pass availability - especially useful during EDL.

MSR is about WAY more than just landing. There will be a rover and a lander to communicate with.

See what ccdengr said.

What is meant - if you want to listen to EDL progress you have to time (and place) it to either:
a) line-of-sight between the Lander and DSN Antenna on Earth
b) line-of-sight between the Lander and some orbital asset.

b) is where the cheap smallsats come in.

For ordinary comm with rover/lander you can just wait.

See for example landing tones generated by the MSL:
https://spaceflight101.com/msl/msl-edl-communications/

Isn't this about general lack of communication with assets on the surface? Not just a 5 minute period of time?

[Barley]

The value of a smallsat relay might not be the bandwitdth, but ground pass availability - especially useful during EDL.

MSR is about WAY more than just landing. There will be a rover and a lander to communicate with.

See what ccdengr said.

What is meant - if you want to listen to EDL progress you have to time (and place) it to either:
a) line-of-sight between the Lander and DSN Antenna on Earth
b) line-of-sight between the Lander and some orbital asset.

b) is where the cheap smallsats come in.

I believe there is an additional issue with a).  Signal strength. 

Insight had line of sight to Earth radio telescopes during landing.  The carrier signal was monitored but the signal was too weak to be decoded.  The carrier gives a few hints, such as Dopler shift and timing of any loss of signal but of course no telemetry.

[ccdengr]

MSR is about WAY more than just landing. There will be a rover and a lander to communicate with.

As previously described, though, the MSR architecture includes relay from the ERO, so they have this covered.  No ERO, no MSR.

[ccdengr]

Insight had line of sight to Earth radio telescopes during landing.  The carrier signal was monitored but the signal was too weak to be decoded.

May have been true for Insight, I don't recall for sure.  For MER, there were DTE tones that could be used to signal particular operating states (256 possible states); see https://descanso.jpl.nasa.gov/DPSummary/MER_article_cmp20051028.pdf page 39.

[Blackstar]

Thomas Zurbuchen spoke in front of the Space Studies Board this morning and had some things to say about Mars relay. You may see that reported in the next few days. It wasn't definitive, but it was more than has been said in the past. The gist of it is that NASA is aware that with the cancellation of the Mars Ice Mapper they will have very limited (maybe zero) relay capabilities in the future. They are "aware" of this, but have not announced what they may do about it. They do have more options now than previously, but he did not say what those options are.

[Don2]

I don't think NASA can afford anything until they are past the peak spending for Mars sample return, so nothing will happen until 2027 or so. The question is what is the cheapest possible relay? At Mars the high orbits are cheaper to reach than the low orbits. They could provide reduced communication delays. However, the surface missions may be more interested in minimizing their energy expenditure per bit. There are a lot of design alternatives. However, it is difficult to imagine anything cheaper than the Hope mission, which cost about $200 million.

There are also other needs. After the samples are returned, scientists may discover that certain minerals are associated with exciting science and they might want to map the distribution of those minerals. A higher resolution version of CRISM would be needed for that. And a high resolution camera would help to select future landing sites. A mission that did those jobs and included a relay would set NASA up well for the 2030s. Unfortunately there are a lot of other missions which the Decadal endorsed which will be looking for funds.

The very cheapest way to solve the issue would be if another country builds a Mars mission which included a NASA provided relay. Europe and Japan have built many Earth observation satellites and they have the capabilities to do capable Mars orbiters. Canada and India have also built radar satellites for Earth observation. There is an opportunity for foreign space agencies who could use the relay to barter for access to future NASA landers.

A final possibility is a commercial relay. In the 2020s, India, UAE, China, Japan, Europe and the US will all be active at Mars. A commercial relay would make it possible for cubesats/smallsats to operate around Mars. They could really ring the cash register if some space agency got desperate, or if the current rover fleet lasted longer than expected.

[baldusi]

A final possibility is a commercial relay. In the 2020s, India, UAE, China, Japan, Europe and the US will all be active at Mars. A commercial relay would make it possible for cubesats/smallsats to operate around Mars. They could really ring the cash register if some space agency got desperate, or if the current rover fleet lasted longer than expected.

From what I understand, GEO birds are pretty much deep space hardware, save for navigation and comm payload. GEO birds actually use the Earth to keep its pointing, while all telemetry and control are executed with a permanent beam directly pointed to the bird. But they do perform maneuvers with INS and startrackers when going to its orbital position. Also, the GEO environment is from a radiation and thermal pov pretty much deep space. Doing 15 to 20 years is also par for the course, if you are not worried about orbital debris.
And I say this because the current trend for GEO birds is to significantly reduce their size. So, if putting a bird at a 12 hours inclined orbit (~10,000km) is good enough for comms for all missions (with a strong emphasis on if), a commercial solution might be a relatively low risk approach.
I understand that the Electra UHF package is mostly used for low orbits. And they use the doppler effect to get accurate positional data. But, if their navigational data is precise and have a really accurate clock source, they are halfway from GPS distance, so they could use a couple of passes to get 30m accuracy or so. The lack of atmospheric interference might even help. And I would say that for US/EU industry GNSS clocks is something off-the-shelf.
Now, the real question is: can this be done for the amount of money that NASA can afford in the meantime? I'm not convinced. To be frank, I guess that getting a commercial solution for this would be pretty hard to do it for under 300M. Yes, a GEO small sat is usually 50M to 80M. But you need a completely custom payload, telemetry, tracking and control, plus certifying the apogee engine for deep space maneuvers after 9 months of deep space navigation, and a few extra custom things. I estimate that while it could be done commercially with reasonable risk, it would not really save NASA much money, if at all.

[redliox]

Although I agree on the importance of dedicated com sats over Mars, it's kinda dragging on and there are already a ton of Mars communication threads (including a few I started myself) on this.  In this thread I'm more interested in how they're trying to keep MAVEN operational for both communication and science.

[Don2]

Apparently commercial Mars relays have been considered by NASA and discussed here before.

My reply to baldusi is here:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=52493.msg2376752#msg2376752

[Vahe231991]

fter orbiting Mars for eight long years, NASA’s Mars Atmosphere and Volatile EvolutioN (MAVEN) spacecraft observed an extraordinary duo of auroras around the Red Planet that resulted from solar storms emanating from the Sun only a few days earlier on August 27. This observation is extraordinary since Mars lacks a global magnetic field so the solar flares must have been very powerful for MAVEN to detect them.

Solar flares are often referred to as space weather, with this series of flares being produced by the Sun on August 27, and were followed by what’s known as a coronal mass ejection (CME). This CME impacted the weak Martian magnetic field a few days later and created what’s known as a solar energetic particle (SEP) event, which was one of the brightest ever observed by MAVEN.

“By utilizing space weather models of CME propagation, we determined when the structure would arrive and impact Mars,” said Dr. Christina Lee, who is a space physicist in the Space Sciences Laboratory at the University of California, Berkeley, a member of the MAVEN mission team, and also works with the Moon to Mars Space Weather Analysis Office scientists. “This allowed the MAVEN team to anticipate some exciting disturbances in Mars’ atmosphere from the impacts of the interplanetary CME and the associated SEPs.”

https://www.universetoday.com/158678/nasas-maven-witnessed-auroras-as-multiple-solar-storms-crashed-into-mars/ [from November 16, 2022]

[ddspaceman]

NASA JPL
@NASAJPL
Planet-engulfing auroras on Mars? 🤯

In May, the Red Planet was hit by a massive solar flare and subsequent coronal mass ejection, and the MAVEN orbiter captured this data with its ultraviolet instrument. http://go.nasa.gov/3KDe1R1

https://twitter.com/NASAJPL/status/1800222832754045427

[catdlr]

Ten Years at Mars with NASA’s MAVEN Mission

On September 21, 2014, NASA’s MAVEN (Mars Atmospheric and Volatile Evolution) spacecraft entered orbit around Mars, beginning its ongoing exploration of the Red Planet’s upper atmosphere. The mission has produced a wealth of data about how Mars’s atmosphere responds to the Sun and solar wind, and how these interactions can explain the loss of the Martian atmosphere to space. Now, as MAVEN continues its mission, we can look back on the remarkable discoveries of its first ten years at Mars.

Read about the mission: https://science.nasa.gov/missions/mav...


Credit: NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center
Dan Gallagher: Producer/Narrator

[StraumliBlight]

The Planetary Society: Scientists behind threatened NASA missions explain what’s at stake [Jul 7]

In one sentence, what does MAVEN aim to do? 

MAVEN is America's premiere telecommunications orbiter at Mars and​ is the best observer of atmospheric escape anywhere in the Solar System​.

What potential discoveries are at stake if MAVEN is defunded or cancelled?

MAVEN is the best and only spacecraft from any space agency to provide information about the history of Mars’ atmosphere. We can use this information to understand the future of Earth’s atmosphere, and which planets in the Solar System (and beyond) may be able to support life on their surfaces.

How does MAVEN fit into NASA’s overall mission?

MAVEN returns data from[sic] Mars rovers and serves as an exceptional observatory for exploring Mars. It is exploring the past, present and future of the red planet. MAVEN is also the only mission that can provide real time data on the radiation environment and solar storms at Mars, which will be critical to monitor in advance of human exploration.

Why should this mission matter to people?

MAVEN is the youngest and strongest U.S. telecom relay at Mars. Without a strong U.S. presence, America will cede leadership of Mars exploration to China.

How many people are on your team?

Roughly 350 people work on MAVEN.

[jimvela]

I'm not sure what's up, but there are indications that Maven has had another issue; I believe they declared a spacecraft emergency over the weekend.

[djellison]

https://science.nasa.gov/blogs/maven/2025/12/09/nasa-teams-work-maven-spacecraft-signal-loss/

NASA’s MAVEN (Mars Atmosphere and Volatile EvolutioN) spacecraft, in orbit around Mars, experienced a loss of signal with ground stations on Earth on Dec. 6. Telemetry from MAVEN had showed all subsystems working normally before it orbited behind the Red Planet. After the spacecraft emerged from behind Mars, NASA’s Deep Space Network did not observe a signal.

The spacecraft and operations teams are investigating the anomaly to address the situation. More information will be shared once it becomes available.

[jimvela]

Not good news is what I'm hearing.  Very vigorous response, but struggling to regain communication with the vehicle.

[Kaputnik]

Is it likely that the IMU failure could have caused this?

[s_wood]

Is it likely that the IMU failure could have caused this?

possible, but they have 2, if the IMU failed I would have expected it to have eventually switched over to the other at some point in its onboard recovery process.  Even if they were both close to end of life its unlikely (not impossible) that a they've both failed at the same time.

[ccdengr]

Is it likely that the IMU failure could have caused this?

Depends on whether they were in all-stellar mode (no IMU usage) or not.  There are some times of year when the IMU has to be used.  Losing comms completely is a very bad sign, since they don't need attitude control to transmit on the LGA and this happened so quickly that they certainly had power for a while.

[LouScheffer]

Maven was working fine when it went behind Mars, but signal not found when it should have been re-acquired.

NASA release here

mod note: same as above